Space Opera Fans discussion

The panel's response was a weak, mumbled jumble. They got pissed off when I told the guy maybe he should self-publish his own awesome comic with the kind of hero he wants to write about?

Sometimes, if you want something done right, you just have to do it yourself... :-)

The key, if you write in ANY alternative fandom, is to have a vigorous way to sign readers up for your mailing list. Under-served people tend to be your most loyal fans.

P.S. - you should post that book link in the 'black protagonist' thread so people can find it. I made that list for a reason :-)

Anna wrote: "Greetings Space Opera Fans!

While serving on the Avengers panel this past winter at the ARISIA SciFi/Fantasy conference, one of the audience members stood up and asked why he was unable to find pe..."

I think one of the most important things SF can ever deliver is not 'stories about what it's like to be black', but stories that happen to have black protagonists *who are otherwise no different from a white protagonist*. This applies to all sorts of minority group. Disabled people often complain that all literature that contains disabled characters is about said characters Heroically Rising Up Above Their Disability, when in actual fact they'd prefer to see disabled characters who live much the same lives as non-disabled ones, the only difference being the wheelchair. I used to live with two gay men, Mark 1 and Mark 2, who were in every way like an ordinary heterosexual couple, and yet were also very ordinary men (they spent more time drinking beer and watching sports on the TV than I ever did). As I'd only ever really been exposed to heterosexual people up to that point, this was more of a surprise to me than you'd imagine. One of the great strengths of SF is that, although it's a medium that allows us to depict Aliens From Another Planet, it so often doesn't depict the marginalized sectors of our society as such.

Great observation, Dominic! A friend of mine is working on a fantasy novel where the central protagonist has two dads. She's still a novice writer, but we're all helping her get her story publishable because the two dads and three kids are just so NORMAL (other than the fact the son is a wizard who lost his mojo). There is no soapbox. No 'I need to overcome my two dads.' No rising up. Just an otherwise 'normal' family where the hero has two loving, supportive parents called Dad and Papa. When she gets frustrated, we remind here people NEED stories which depict 'alternative' lifestyles as just the way things are.

A Soldier's Duty The protagonist has 2 moms. The series itself takes Mary Sue and over powered protagonist to a new level and beyond, thankfully the author at least gives them a challenge that's difficult to overcome.

Jonathan wrote: "1. Pretty much every sci-fi book I read has only white, Western European characters. Now that doesn't stop me from enjoying the book, but it stands in stark contrast to the real world."

On Basilisk Station Honor is mostly some Asian background, her Queen is black, though their culture is obviously the UK. The white people in the series have a vaguely Japanese culture to them.

On disabled people you have Miles Vorkosigan The Warrior's Apprentice.

Or you can just read a bunch of Chinese or Japanese Sci-fi then most of the characters are Asian :) .

Aaron wrote: "A Soldier's Duty The protagonist has 2 moms. The series itself takes Mary Sue and over powered protagonist to a new level and beyond, thankfully the author at least gives them a ch..."

I think the problem was reading only what was marketed the best by the Big 5. I only read the well known authors for most of my life and well...

I downloaded On Basilisk Station. I'll get to it eventually.

Ronnie wrote: "Overall, I liked "Avatar". But it bugged me - if the Unobtanium was so valuable on Earth, why did Selfridge (the "Company" man) have a fist sized lump of the stuff on his desk which he apparently ..."

I'm waiting for the sequel where they discover the even more valuable mineral Cantgetholdathisshittium.

Jonathan wrote: "Aaron wrote: "A Soldier's Duty The protagonist has 2 moms. The series itself takes Mary Sue and over powered protagonist to a new level and beyond, thankfully the author at least g..."

Try the first 2 books the first book is a bit different from the rest of the series. They should both be free. I think Warrior's Appretice is free as well I may be wrong, that series can't keep it's genre straight but the writing and characters are fantastic.

Dominic wrote: "I'm waiting for the sequel where they discover the even more valuable mineral Cantgetholdathisshittium...."

Hah! I just passed coffee through my nostrils! Cantgetholdathisshittium? I'll have to use that at some point in one of my superhero fanfiction dabblings.

Cyteen by C.J. Cherryh has two male same sex couples who are treated as perfectly ordinary, and there are several major female characters.

Chaos Station treats homosexuality and bisexuality as normative, and the captain of the ship where most of the story takes place is black. Both main characters are war veterans suffering from pretty realistic PTSD. This is a m/m romance book with a fairly strong space opera plot.

The main character of The Sparrow is a Puerto Rican Jesuit priest.

Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen treats polyamory as normal (by Betan standards, if not Barryaran), and a poly relationship is a core piece of the novel.

Island in the Sea of Time includes an African American lesbian and her partner as two of the main characters. This is SF though not space opera.

Almost the entire Vorkosigan series by Lois McMaster Bujold is focused on Miles, who has quite a range of physical disabilities.

Those are the ones that come to mind upon a few minutes' thought.

My space opera books have a female MC who is in a same sex relationship, treated as standard/normal, women in leadership positions, a very diverse cast including two brothers who are of mixed race, and (in book 2) an older woman soldier with an UE prosthesis, as well as a character with a head injury.

DERELICT and ITHAKA RISING are the first 2 books in the Halcyone Space series.

https://www.goodreads.com/series/1619...

And I will pile on and recommend the Bujold Vorkosigan saga books.

I didn't really enjoy the series but it is an interesting attempt at a different viewpoint. Since it is being re-published and expanded it is worthy of note.

Chung Kuo: The Rise of China: Son of Heaven and Daylight on Iron Mountain

On the other hand I dislike novels that have main characters who are of a particular race, sex, sexual orientation, etc simply for the sake of being different and not integrating it into the story in a meaningful way.

As for "disabled" heroes, how about The Ship Who Sang.

V.W. wrote: "On the other hand I dislike novels that have main characters who are of a particular race, sex, sexual orientation, etc simply for the sake of being different and not integrating it into the story ..."

Not sure I'm understanding you right, but do you mean that a main character's race, sex or sexual orientation should be a plot point if they're different from white, male and heterosexual, respectively?

Tobias wrote: "V.W. wrote: "On the other hand I dislike novels that have main characters who are of a particular race, sex, sexual orientation, etc simply for the sake of being different and not integrating it in..."

No, just that if the author makes a particular point to highlight a particular characteristic, it should work into a story more than simply "I'm a starship captain and I'm Indonesian. By the way, did I mention I'm Indonesian?" or "The ships's galley only served Indonesian food because as an Indonesian captain I insisted on it." or even "The entire ship's crew were Indonesian and gay." but then go on with the story as if they could have just as easily been white or black or Japanese and heterosexual.

V.W. wrote: "Tobias wrote: "V.W. wrote: "On the other hand I dislike novels that have main characters who are of a particular race, sex, sexual orientation, etc simply for the sake of being different and not in..."

There's a difference between writing appropriate diversity and playing diversity bingo. Yet, there is also something to be said for seeing diversity in a story that is presented as a matter of fact - e.g., the world is diverse and characters of all types have leadership roles in it.

It's the difference, for example, between a book with gay characters that is a coming out narrative versus a book with gay characters in it that are presented in a normative relationship.

I'm inclined to think of this topic more as "True to Life Space Opera" rather than "Alternative" as so much space opera has been written through an unenlightened white, male POV and has very often simply erased the physical existence of much of humankind.

Is the Rama series, written by Clarke and Lee, considered space opera? The main protagonist of the second book (Rama II) and its sequels, Nicole des Jardins, is a dark-skinned female. There's not a lot of focus on the topic of race, but at least the hero isn't the typical white male Han Solo type (not that there's anything at all wrong with Han Solo!).

Some really great suggestions here beginning with Remnant (unfortunately for me, Kindle only), the classic 'Ship who Sang', and the Warrior's Apprentice.

Since I'm new to the group I'm reading this thread after finishing the 'Romantic Space Opera' thread. What's totally fabulous is that I'm seeing the same basic theme - there is an audience for stories that as 'Buzz H' says reflect the truth of reader interests - diverse, creative, and multicultural. And - thanks to self and indie publishing - writers willing to take a risk and publish those stories.

I know it's what I like to read.

I just read this thread and the discussion was interesting.

Since I started reading science fiction when I was 12, now, even 45 years later, I believe that those stories that treated gender, sexuality, ethnicity, skin color as matter of fact and just part of the story affected the way I think. I grew up in a white, hetero, fundamental Christian environment. Science fiction integrated into my thought processes much more effectively than pentecostal preachers. I was truly befuddled by why others made such a big issue of being gay, mixed racial children, interracial marriage, religious diversity, and so on. I simply could not fathom why anyone would judge someone based on those things. I think that science fiction reading counteracted many of the prejudices that were instilled in children during the 60s and 70s in every aspect of our culture from the schoolroom to the TV shows. I suspect that when you say "alien" to a science fiction reader they wonder which planet - animal, vegetable, mineral, - and not which border and what color skin.

I don't recall any books that brought forth that same approach to disability.

Well said, Lizzie.

That disability thing could be changing. There have been stories about people with autism and a couple with a blind Main Character.




But if I might add a comment about your intro and your question. Your question may have been more rhetorical but...
Actually gay activities and perhaps religious diversity are the only things listed by you that are Christian the others are social issues and so would depend on where your parents grew up and when. Sorry to say but many in this country had contrary beliefs about those issues. It was the way they were raised in a lot of cases.

Any activity the Bible says is sin would be a problem however, which also includes prostitution, murder and sex outside of marriage etc.

L.E. wrote: "But if I might add a comment about your intro and your quest..."

I wasn't really asking a question, simply making a statement as to how I believe science fiction influenced me.

In regards to the issues that you deemed as social, religion certainly makes statements on social issues, then and now. I am not stating that every religion does so but the influence of religion on politics and social issues has existed throughout history.

Buzz H. wrote: "I'm inclined to think of this topic more as "True to Life Space Opera" rather than "Alternative" as so much space opera has been written through an unenlightened white, male POV and has very often ..."

Hear, hear. "True to life" -- or at least life as it should be, not as it is at the moment. Although, I must give props to some of those white male writers, as some have indeed been quite enlightened :-) Race does not predetermine one's mindset, after all.

But yes... I'd rather we, the human race I mean, create a new, better, less bigoted "normal" than spend time manufacturing a marginalized "alternative" to normal :-) It sounds like most folks contributing to this thread agree in essence, just from different points of view :-)

Lizzie wrote: "I think that science fiction reading counteracted many of the prejudices that were instilled in children....

I agree. While a bunch of sci-fi has very much been the opposite, much has contributed a great deal to the advancement of social progress. It might be part of the reason that when I think about people I know who love reading sci-fi, a relatively diverse crowd comes to mind. What links them together probably has more to do with that sense of wonder that good sci-fi can elicit, as well as our shared humanity. Nothing to do with culture or skin color or sexual orientation or physical attributes etc. I think as a genre, science fiction has done pretty well in this regard.

I also agree, however, that there is plenty of room for improvement, including more diversity in sci-fi (I realize this thread is about space opera, but the same thing applies). People want to read about characters they can relate to.

I have no doubt that scifi (and fantasy) influenced my ability to value and appreciate people (and fictional characters) in wide range of 'flavors.' Although I write romance, my novels reflect those influences. I am ashamed to admit, I never envisioned a disabled hero/heroine. I need to work on that.

In terms of Space Opera with diversity - this series isn't a dead on match to the list (the heroine is definitely what we would think of as white-European). But, it has a broad mix of characters (good and bad) of all ethnic types and gender preferences - all of which are 'normal.' The culture pulls from ancient Rome to ancient Japan and the religion is polytheist.

It is definitely more 'space opera' than 'sci-fi.'


*it's also sexually explicit - so not everyone's cuppa

Oh, and it occurs to me that Hollywood is a super slow learner. Firefly and it's very successful movie, Serenity, had all the desirable elements including a disabled main character - River was definitely not functioning on the same set of cylinders as everyone else.

On the Edge of Gone by Corinne Duyvis. Not space opera, but features an autistic black protagonist with a transgender sibling and moslem, jewish etc friends.

Also God's War by Kameron Hurley, set on a distant planet, features mostly non-white and mostly moslem characters. Not actually space opera but contains space opera themes in the background

Serenity was not successful at all Gem. Worldwide take was $38 million. That's pitiful for a movie. Especially given the production budget was $39 million. Technically and officially Serenity is a flop.

Jonathan wrote: "Serenity was not successful at all Gem. Worldwide take was $38 million. That's pitiful for a movie. Especially given the production budget was $39 million. Technically and officially Serenity is a flop."

I'm sure a fair few group members own the DVD though...

Jonathan wrote: "Serenity was not successful at all Gem. Worldwide take was $38 million. That's pitiful for a movie. Especially given the production budget was $39 million. Technically and officially Serenity is a ..."

Actually, as of ~2007, Serenity made that much again on DVD sales and cable. So it was a financial success. That said, it wasn't a block buster and it does tend to indicate that other than Star Wars, space opera fans tend to prefer the small screen.

L.E. wrote: "That disability thing could be changing. There have been stories about people with autism and a couple with a blind Main Character.




But if I might add a comment about your intro and your quest..."


I thought so but figured I could throw in a point anyway, sometimes rhetorical questions are still questions.

Jonathan wrote: "Serenity was not successful at all Gem. Worldwide take was $38 million. That's pitiful for a movie. Especially given the production budget was $39 million. Technically and officially Serenity is a ..."

It's generated a fairly large cult following since its initial box office number count though. Firefly has even more so. There are even tons of (mostly subtle) references to the show on the much more mainstream Castle :-)

My favourite of the not-so-subtle ones is here.

Gaines wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Serenity was not successful at all Gem. Worldwide take was $38 million. That's pitiful for a movie. Especially given the production budget was $39 million. Technically and official..."

Oh yes :) I liked that one! And yes, DVD owner here.

Gaines wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Serenity was not successful at all Gem. Worldwide take was $38 million. That's pitiful for a movie. Especially given the production budget was $39 million. Technically and official..."

That was fun. I laughed out loud when that showed up.

Of course, I have the dvd (and the TV series dvds).

My novel, The Turquoise Queen, is centered on mostly non-humanoid characters, with the main exception being a black woman. And it features civilizations for which polyamorous bisexuality is the norm, though that isn't one of its central themes.

The Turquoise Queen

My first novel, Seeds of Change, may fit this “alternative” idea. My basic approach was that in 2171 when the novel begins, much of humanity is of ethnically mixed race or has no problem with particular ethnicities or mixed race romances. The main character is female. The supporting cast has all kinds of ethnicities - Black, Asian, East Indian, Hawaiian. Many of the characters are intuitive or clairvoyant which is probably what makes them the most “different.” One of the children is on the autism spectrum. One of the characters is probably aromantic but she doesn’t label herself.

There is an opposing colony that is quite the opposite - with an almost Aryan outlook who favor body modding that reinforces the Aryan appearance in many of its people.

If you are interested - here’s a link. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...

Hi, I am offering my own writing as perhaps fitting this category. Many of my influential characters are females, even in the military aspects of my work, and one of my major female characters grows into an intimate relationship with a female humanoid alien. So, “same sex” in a sense (although not the same species). But this is not some weird alien sex thing (like in District 9...) It’s a genuine emotional partnership which is explored with subtlety and taste.

This is not the focus of the work, however. I don’t want to give the impression that I have deliberately set out to confront traditional narrative bias in my writing, because I have not.

Anyway, if this sounds like it might be appropriate, reply here and I’ll let you know the title of my work.