Hugo & Nebula Awards: Best Novels discussion

Last year we did it with a cash prize, now let's go cheap :)

On March 1st (?), Nebula award nominees should be announced (nominations are collected Nov 15-Feb 28). It can be fun to flex our forecast muscles and guess which novels will be nominated. So, members are allowed to post up to six novels that can be nominees. The person, who correctly predicts the most will win

Deadline for your lists in Feb 28th, 2020

I guess
Piranesi
The City We Became
The Relentless Moon

will be there

who is on the committee this year? As Antti so adequately mentioned last year they tend to nominate one of themselves ;D.

You can find list of SFWA board members here: https://www.sfwa.org/about/current-of...

Of those, three published an eligible novel:
Mary Robinette Kowal, The Relentless Moon
Nathan Lowell, The Wizard's Butler
Jeffe Kennedy, The Fiery Crown and The Fate of the Tala

Gabi wrote: "who is on the committee this year? As Antti so adequately mentioned last year they tend to nominate one of themselves ;D."

Lol, really? Seems to me like having a qualifying book should disqualify authors as judges....

So I've been paying more attention to the Hugo's in general. I know Nebula's are chosen by actual writers, but I don't have any sense for how the nominations may differ from Hugo's. Have you guys noticed any trends or patterns?

Kristenelle wrote: "but I don't have any sense for how the nominations may differ from Hugo's. Have you guys noticed any trends or patterns?"

They prefer more literary and 'unorthodox' works, also giving a greater chance to debut authors. Sometimes, there is something akin to votes trading I presume: we don't see details on the vote, but in 2019 there were 1 'strange' novella - “Fire Ant” by Jonathan P. Brazee, quite ordinary mil-SF.

Antti wrote: "You can find list of SFWA board members here: https://www.sfwa.org/about/current-of...
Mary Robinette Kowal,"

The most likely candidate I presume

Antti wrote: "You can find list of SFWA board members here: https://www.sfwa.org/about/current-of...

Of those, three published an eligible novel:
Mary Robinette Kowal, The Relentless Moon
Na..."

Okidoki, then my guess goes to The Relentless Moon ;)

I am curious, how SFF/Horror will manage this year - there are two novels, Mexican Gothic and The Only Good Indians, which lean toward horror, as well as a novella Ring Shout

Oleksandr wrote: "I am curious, how SFF/Horror will manage this year - there are two novels, Mexican Gothic and The Only Good Indians, which lean toward horror, as well as a novella [..."

I've been wondering about that too. Why do you shout out those particular three horror novels/novella? Are they just the most popular or most worthy in your opinion?

Kristenelle wrote: "Are they just the most popular or most worthy in your opinion?."

They are quite popular from what I can judge. So far I've read only Mexican Gothic and it was ok, but not exactly my kind of book, but it alread got a TV series, so should be quite popular. We'll read Ring Shout in SFF Hot from Printers: New Releases group in March.

Ok, based on your descriptions Nebula nominees I'm going to guess the following:

Piranesi
The Relentless Moon
The Space Between Worlds
The Trials of Koli
The Vanished Birds
Harrow the Ninth
The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue

Editing to add...I had forgotten about Addie Larue. So I amended my list.

Kristenelle wrote: "Ok, based on your descriptions Nebula nominees I'm going to guess the following:.."

Oh, correct, The Vanished Birds have a chance!

Let's see...

I guess I have to include The Relentless Moon.

The City We Became is a sure thing: I've rarely seen any book as hyped as this one.

The Vanished Birds is a debut novel, which is always a plus in the Nebulas, so I'm going with that one.

Piranesi feels like it should have a chance, although I'm a bit unsure of this one.

But the rest are harder. I'm guessing it will NOT be Mexican Gothic, since Moreno-Garcia already got her Nebula nom last year. And for the same reason I think Harrow the Ninth wont make it, either.


But despite that logic, I'm still picking The Once and Future Witches. Sure, Harrow already got her nomination, so by my earlier logic I shouldn't include her new book, but since when have Nebula voters been logical?

Last, I'm going to include a longshot and guess The House in the Cerulean Sea will make it.

I guess The Relentless Moon make pass, after all Mary Robinette Kowal is the president of SFWA since 2019, so "the Antti's rule' applies. The only drawback that it is the third volume

Is The Relentless Moon that good? The first book was very good but I didn’t hear much about the second and didn’t read it, yet anyway.

Allan wrote: "Is The Relentless Moon that good? The first book was very good but I didn’t hear much about the second and didn’t read it, yet anyway."

I've read positive reviews. The main character is different from the first two and it is said to refresh the series. Moreover, due to the pandemic the author made all of it appear on her Youtube as an audiobook read by her

I liked "The Relentless Moon", and especially the fact that there were none of the awkward sex scenes from the first book. :D

The Relentless Moon by Mary Robinette Kowal
The City We Became by NK Jemisin
Piranesi by Susanna Clarke
The Space Between Worlds by Micaiah Johnson
Vanished Birds by Simon Jimenez
The Bone Shard Daughter by Andrea Stewart

Nebula noms to be announced on Mar 15th: https://www.sfwa.org/2021/03/10/56th-...

I agree with Philip

The Relentless Moon by Mary Robinette Kowal
The City We Became by NK Jemisin
Piranesi by Susanna Clarke

Otherwise, I don't know.

When is the Hugo short list announced? I know voting closes on the 19th.

Allan wrote: "When is the Hugo short list announced? I know voting closes on the 19th."

Usually end-April

Nebula nominees announced tonight! Get your spreadsheets ready for some new entries!

And the finalists are announced!

NOVEL
Piranesi, Susanna Clarke (Bloomsbury US; Bloomsbury UK)
The City We Became, N.K. Jemisin (Orbit US & UK)
Mexican Gothic, Silvia Moreno-Garcia (Del Rey; Jo Fletcher)
The Midnight Bargain, C.L. Polk (Erewhon)
Black Sun, Rebecca Roanhorse (Saga; Solaris)
Network Effect, Martha Wells (Tordotcom)

Seems like The Midnight Bargain came out of nowhere. I read through the threads and never heard of it.

First thoughts:

As everybody guessed, Piranesi and City We Became made it.

But on the other hand Relentless Moon didn't. So much for "Antti's rule"!

Network Effect was in hindsight always a possibility.

I named Mexican Gothic as a possibility that wouldn't make it, but I guessed wrong.

Black Sun surprised me. I was under the impression it's reception was pretty lukewarm, but I guess I was wrong there, as well.

Midnight Bargain? C.L. Polk has a new book out? Who knew?

Considering my intent on reading all the nominees this is a rather unfortunate list :(. One of them I've already dnf'd and 3 others are on my I-only-read-them-if-I-really-have-to list ^^'. Of the Polk book I haven't heard anything yet.

So 5 out of 6 novel nominees are women, 1 is non-bin...

I'm surprised with Network Effect, I liked it but assumed it is more Hugo than Nebula. Presence of Mexican Gothic and Ring Shout says more horror is SFF, maybe a new trend (making an exaggeration from a point is ridiculous I know)

Antti. I have not read Black Sun yet, but Nebula voters often vote for things that are interesting to them, not always what most readers would necessarily like. So maybe that's why.

I did not even know about The Midnight Bargain by C.L. Polk. Somehow I missed it.

I guess I should have figured Mexican Gothic. I just thought it was SO slow, and the girl was stupid for not leaving right away and calling the calvary. But that's the typical horror thing isn't it? The characters say, "Don't go down in the basement," and the beautiful girl goes down in the basement.

And of course, Network Effect. I put it on my Hugo list. I am not sure why I didn't put it here.

Kateblue wrote: "I guess I should have figured Mexican Gothic. ."

As an afterthought everyone thinks it was expected :)

Yup, Oleksandr. I think I just patiently wait till a time when the focus goes a bit away from the author and back to the stories themselves.

I’m pretty unhappy with this list. I hope Piranesi wins. That is the only one I think deserves it.

I’m pretty sure we had midnight bargain in a poll a few months ago.

I read black sun and wasn’t impressed. It was just ok.

Kristenelle wrote: "I’m pretty unhappy with this list. I hope Piranesi wins. That is the only one I think deserves it. ."

I agree. Alas due to (I think quite justified) politicization of awards (not only SFF but e.g. Oscars) the nominees are a list of previously underrepresented than a list of most literary new works. I understand the reasons behind but I still think it is not the way to amend ills

From the novel list I do really feel like SFWA voters are voting for authors, like Z said, and not for the works themselves.

C.L. Polk is a new author, first novel from 2019, still relatively under the radar, but that novel (Witchmark) was also shortlisted for the Nebulas -- and won the World Fantasy Award. I've got the sequel Stormsong signed out from the library, hoping to get to it because I did enjoy Witchmark. I'm definitely willing to give The Midnight Bargain a shot.

I haven't read Black Sun or Mexican Gothic because neither have appealed to me, especially after the lack of enthusiasm here and elsewhere. I still might not bother despite their nominations. At least Black Sun is a quick read, right?

Kalin wrote: " At least Black Sun is a quick read, right?"

I remember it being average length. It isn't bad. I shouldn't under sell it. There is good world building and it is super cool how it is based on indigenous cultures. I just found the characters not very believable or engaging. Dialogue was weak imo.

Oleksandr - Maybe. I'm still not 100% convinced it is just nominating minorities. I can think of other books by minorities that I'd rather see short listed. Space Between Worlds, Bone Shard Daughter, Vanished Birds...

I don't think it's *just* a minorities thing, but SFWA voters have a shorter list of their *favourite* minority authors that are hot right now and that they keep coming back to, even though the field is wide open right now and there are probably other, better works like the ones you named.

I do think Piranesi is the exception to this, because Susanna Clarke seems to be like Ted Chiang: publishes very rarely but when they do people pay close attention.

I was surprised because the Nebulas have typically nominated new/debut authors more than other big awards, but all of the authors this year have been previously nominated, most pretty recently. Kind of disappointed, I’m with Kristenelle, wishing those three you mentioned were nominated instead.

Black Sun and Network Effect, especially, “feel” more like Hugo books but I guess my instincts are off lol.

Of the three that I've read, Piranesi was by far the best, so I'm pulling for it to win. It would be a solid add to the double winner list. The City We Became was pretty good, so I think it's deserving of the nomination, but not the win. I did not see anything outstanding about Mexican Gothic, I found it very mediocre. And I still can't get over the bad marketing blurb about Witchmark, so I'll have to force myself to read that and The Midnight Bargain. I liked Trail of Lightning, so I can look forward to Black Sun & Network Effect as well. Thankfully, my library has all three of the books I haven't read. I checked out Black Sun audio immediately last night and put holds on Network Effect & The Midnight Bargain, so I should have all three knocked out within six weeks or so. A little disappointed overall though, because I think there were probably more deserving books than some of these.

Kristenelle wrote: "I’m pretty unhappy with this list. I hope Piranesi wins. That is the only one I think deserves it.

..."

Yup, absolutely with you there. This is more or less a nightmare list for me (in face of the fact that I was determined to read all the nominees). I had to dnf "Black Sun", because I was simply bored, I didn't like the short story "The City We became" was based on so I'm only reading this if it is in the Hugo list and I get a free copy for the ballot. After the mess that was "Gods of Shadow and Jade" (or the other way round) I was determined to not touch another book of this author, and for Network Effects I would have to read through all the Murderbot novellas first. "Witchmark" was okay-ish, but nothing I found award worthy in any way, so I didn't watch out for a new book by the author.

Gabi wrote: "for Network Effects I would have to read through all the Murderbot novellas first."

I think you can get away with just reading the novel if you aren't interested in the novellas. If you care a lot about Murderbot then I would recommend reading the novellas first. I think that is probably a superior experience if you love Murderbot and the world, but I think the novel stands alone.

My breakdown:

Piranesi - Yay, I want it to win!
The City We Became - Deserves a nomination, but not a win. Good, but not my favorite Jemisin or 2020 read in general. Just not my cup of tea, but the writing is masterful.
Black Sun - Ok, but doesn't deserve a nom.
Midnight Bargain - I don't know anything about it. Buddy read, anyone?
Network Effect - It's ok. I'm ok with it getting nominated. That's all.
Mexican Gothic - I hated Gods of Jade and Shadow. I have no desire to read this.

I feel like Harrow, Trials of Koli, and the others I've mentioned should have been nominated before some of these.

Allan wrote: "And I still can't get over the bad marketing blurb about Witchmark..."

What was the marketing blurb, and could it possibly be worse than "lesbian necromancers in spaaaaace!" ??

Gabi wrote: "for Network Effects I would have to read through all the Murderbot novellas first."

This is a gift, not a chore! But even though my partner plowed through them all back to back, I would normally recommend spacing them out.

Kalin wrote: "This is a gift, not a chore! But even though my partner plowed through them all back to back, I would normally recommend spacing them out..."

I've read the first one and wasn't exactly hooked, so I never bought the second novella (they were way too expensive for the few pages btw), but now the books are all on storytel, so I will give them a second chance ... someday ;D

Kalin wrote: "What was the marketing blurb, and could it possibly be worse than "lesbian necromancers in spaaaaace!" ??"

"Magic marked Miles Singer for suffering the day he was born, doomed either to be enslaved to his family's interest or to be committed to a witches' asylum. He went to war to escape his destiny and came home a different man, but he couldn’t leave his past behind. The war between Aeland and Laneer leaves men changed, strangers to their friends and family, but even after faking his own death and reinventing himself as a doctor at a cash-strapped veterans' hospital, Miles can’t hide what he truly is.

When a fatally poisoned patient exposes Miles’ healing gift and his witchmark, he must put his anonymity and freedom at risk to investigate his patient’s murder. To find the truth he’ll need to rely on the family he despises, and on the kindness of the most gorgeous man he’s ever seen."

Not quite lesbian necromancers in space! I've mentioned this before. The blurb makes the book sound really interesting right up until that last phrase. Nothing against being gay, but that last bit takes it from a interesting witch thriller to a torrid romance I care a lot less about. Who writes these things? I know I'm taking it out on the author undeservedly, but it grates on me, kind of like the "what it means to be human" phrase, which we all know and love.

Philip wrote: "Black Sun and Network Effect, especially, “feel” more like Hugo books but I guess my instincts are off lol."

I dont think there's anything wrong with your instincts, per se: these are definitely more "Hugo" than "Nebula" books. But our instincts might be outdated. It feels like there's a new breed of Nebula voters, who are more "fannish" than the SFWA members of old.

If that's true, we should expect the Hugo and the Nebula nominations to overlap more than before. I checked if there's already such a trend, and it kinda seems so. Here are the five-year averages for the overlapping H/N nominations for the past 20 years:

2001-05: 1.8
2006-10: 1.2
2011-15: 2.0
2016-20: 2.6

(Edited to correct the punctuation)

Antti wrote: "
2001-05: 1,8
2006-10: 1,2
2011-15: 2,0
2016-20: 2,6
"

Can you explain your system? I don't understand what the numbers on the right signify.

Hey, can anyone explain how Tower of Mud and Straw is even eligible? It looks like it was published in 2021...

Kristenelle wrote: "Can you explain your system? I don't understand what the numbers on the right signify."

Yeah, I guess I could've been clearer. It's the number of books that were nominated for both the Hugo and the Nebula per year on average during that five-year period.

So during the years 2016–2020 there were 13 books in total that were both Hugo and Nebula nominees, which gives an average of 2,6 books per year.

Kristenelle wrote: "Hey, can anyone explain how Tower of Mud and Straw is even eligible? It looks like it was published in 2021...

I think I can explain it, Kristenelle :) Ebook and paperback of Tower were published in 2021, but the novella itself was first serialized in a magazine called Metaphorosis in 2020. So it's eligible for this year's Nebulas, Hugos, Locus Awards, WFAs, Drunken Basilisk Awards, etc. etc.

Yaroslav wrote: "Kristenelle wrote: "Hey, can anyone explain how Tower of Mud and Straw is even eligible? It looks like it was published in 2021...

I think I can explain it, Kristenelle :) Ebook and paperback of T..."

Oh wow, are you the author?? That makes sense. Thanks for explaining. :) It looks really interesting. I noticed the pub dates because I was asking my library to purchase it.

Hi Yaroslav, nice to have you in the group!