Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction discussion
Late Middle Ages (1300–1500)
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Wars of Scottish Independence
Not fiction, but very much related and exceptionally well written. Steel Bonnets: The Story of the Anglo-Scottish Border Reivers. Fiction of the same era by the same author: The Candlemass Road.
Steel bonnets is much later than middle ages. George MacDonald Fraser wrote it about the hellish 1500s, and Candlemas Road was a fictionalised story set in around 1590 (I think). Both superb books. GMF was without a doubt a superb writer about fighting men - his experiences in Burma in WWII drew him to soldiers of all kinds.
I don't think there are too many Bruce-era Scottish stories, sadly. Most are here already!
If I have read anything else on this period of history, I can't remember and will have to think on it.
I am hoping to get to The Lion Wakes by the end of the year (as soon as it comes into the library and it is on order).
by the by..
Ireney showed the cover;
I was under the impression that this was to be the Commonwealth cover. But this is the cover that the library has ordered;
tre cool.
A Kingdom's Cost: sounds intriguing. I see that it was just published a few months ago and it is first in a planned trilogy. Digging around, I found that the next book, entitled Countenance of War, will be available in January, and J.R. Tomlin posted a short preview of it on her blog.
For Kindle readers, this title can be had for $3.99USD ... a steal!
I'll also add Craig's suggestion to the top of the page for consolidated access, and mark it as "later period".
... but I'm not sure about Jean Plaidy's saga ... all the pretty princesses locked in tender embraces with strapping young lads on the covers strike fear into my heart >8)
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Is it fear...or bile? :\ Maybe both?
I have read a couple Jean Plaidy...in another time, in another state of mind, a couple decades ago when I was a hormonal teen. Too girlie for me now.
I was never sure, but that's the exact fear that's stopped me from ever reading them.
On the subject of Jean Plaidy, in addition to being rather girlie, her work is entirely from the point of view of an Anglophile. Now this is fine if one happens to be an Anglophile but you can hardly expect to get a story that is sympathetic to the Scots from her. And you won't.
I must admit that I'm no fan of Braveheart either because of how fast and loose it played with history.
I understand the new novel out by Robert Low is quite good, but I haven't read it. I have also heard very good things about Crown in the Heather. Because I'm writing about the same period and people, for the time being I am not reading any fiction on it.
As far as my own novels, thank you again for mentioning them. I admit that they are from a Scotophile, but I do try to look at the war in a balanced way. When your country is invaded and conquered, sometimes you're put to hard choices. That was the case with the Scots in my novels. What they were forced to wasn't always pretty. However, I try to show some balance in the novels. They are a long way from girly or romances, but I do show some of the domestic side of their lives.
I do have a new novel coming out early next year.
As far as non-fiction, I highly, HIGHLY recommend GWS Barrow's "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of Scotland" but it is a fairly academic work. Barron's "Scottish War of Independence" is also very good but not for the reader with no background in Scottish history. A somewhat more accessible book requiring less knowledge of Scottish history is Ronald McNeil Scott's "Robert Bruce King of the Scots".
Edit: To be honest, although I admire Tranter tremendously, I can't recommend his Wallace. However, I did enjoy his Bruce Trilogy very much.
Hi J.R.
I am getting more and more excited about reading
I mean, it's no secret in my household that I get excited at the thought of a new Robert Low book anyway. And now that the Oathsworn series is supposedly kaput, I am ready and willing to dive into the new Kingdom Series.
Add to that, the positive buzz to The Lion Wakes and I am perfectly giddy. :)
I will look for your book when it comes, J.R. I can rarely find non girlie female authors. lol. And I will be pleased to find a diamond in the rough.
So far no one has ever accused me of writing a girly novel, so I think you might be pleased. *grin*
Edit: And it is nice to find a historical novel group where everyone isn't drooling over the bloody Tudors. *eye roll*
Tell me about it! *joins J.R. in a mutual eye roll session*.
"Freedom's Sword" begins with the initial English invasion and the main character is Andrew de Moray who successfully raised the north of Scotland while Wallace was in the south. "A Kingdom's Cost" follows the early career of James, Lord of Douglas, called the Black Douglas by his English enemies. He was King Robert the Bruce's most faithful follower during that period of the war.
So that is what those are. And I won't talk about them any more. Promise. :-)
So, seems I am not completely against fiction set during the Tudor period.
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Thanks. I really appreciate that. Yes, it will be shipping in February 2012 so only a few more months. It covers a very exciting period in the War and in the lives of the people who fought it.
I hadn't heard of Jack Whyte's series so that sounds interesting as well. Eventually, I'll no longer be writing about it and start reading fiction again. At the moment, I stick with non-fiction but I'll have a good list to look forward to. :-)
There is another series of non-fiction on the period that I have to recommend by David R. Ross. He wrote a series of books that actually traces the steps of the Scottish heros including information about the places, what they did there and a lot of photos and maps. So you might want to check out "On the Trail of Robert the Bruce", "On the Trail of William Wallace", and "James the Good, The Black Douglas". They are very accessible and you don't have to be an expert on Scotland or its history to enjoy them.
Looking at the list, a decent volume of reading is available on the subject!
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50 pages in and so far, Mr Low has not let me down. Good to be reading one of his books again.
The thing that really annoys me about the generally accepted heroic narrative of the Scottish Wars of Independance is that it tends to ignore the fact that the first thing the Scots did after they won freedom at Bannockburn was invade Ireland, where they inflicted 3 years of misery, devastation and slaughter. Nobody ever mentions that. I love Robert Low's destinctly unheroic take on the whole time and look forward to finishing the rest of the trilogy. I also concur with his portrait of the Bruce brothers.
Once again sorry for a blatent spam, but if your are interested in a counterpoint to Braveheart etc. you could check out my book
Lions of the Grail
This is why I didn't like the movie Braveheart. I thought it was a good story, but not a good movie. If that makes sense. I saw it once and watched half of it many, many years later when it came to tv, but I didn't like the fabricated 'Hollywood' aspects of the movie.
The affair with the Queen was absolute bollocks and annoyed me immensely.
The thing I have noticed, however, in The Lion Wakes by Robert low, is that Low depicts Wallace with his Scotsmans love of this heroic figure. Enormous, larger than all men, uses a 'hand and a half' sword with one hand while all other men need two hands.
I wondered while reading all this whether this is the hero that Scotsmen see when they speak of him, or is it what the real man was like....???
No it didn't. :) Don't worry. I can thoroughly understand your not sugar coating your feelings of Braveheart. I get passionate about these things too.
I have come across a lot of people who don't realise it is small percentage true....but we are only the Colonies, you kind of expect that kind of ignorance from convicts. :)
I'm sorry Terri, but your "convict" comment made me actually laugh out loud! I feel that most people who are interested in movies like Braveheart do know that it is inaccurate. Like your penchant for some of today's tv shows, I like movies like Braveheart for their entertainment value (scantily clad well-muscled men, screaming tribally, as they fight).
As for Jean Plaidy, not only is she an Angliophile, she usually writes from a woman's point of view. It is in third person but she tends to centralize on one woman character, so the events seem somewhat slanted to her view. The battles are not described in detail, but I don't think that she is incredibly feminine in her style. She sometimes has a bit of romance but it is usually to display the real relationships that she is writing about. She is a decent writer, just not excellent, and does not hold a candle to Bernard Cornwell, and it sounds like it's the same for several of these mentioned authors. For me, though, Jean Plaidy has been good for freshening up on basic details, plus I can find her books for cheap at flea markets and yard sales.
That is good Darla. I was giggling when I wrote that about the convicts and I am glad it made someone else giggle too.
I don't know much about Scottish history but I'm with Darla when it coms to scantily clad well muscled men in movies!! :)
That is good Darla. I was giggling when I wrote that about the convicts and I am glad it made someone else giggle too."
Historical footnote that you may find interesting:
I spent a lot of summers as a kid on a place called Lundy Island (I love it and finally went back there as an adult last year). For most of its history it seemed to be ruled by various pirates and ne'er-do-wells.
In the early part of the nineteenth century it was owned by a gentleman who bought the British government contract for transporting convicts to Australia. Instead, he transported them to Lundy and set them to work quarrying, building walls, etc. Basically his own private army of slaves. When this was eventually discovered and he was hauled up in front of a judge in London he explained that the contract didn't stipulate Australia but "a place of toil and suffering across the seas".
A place of toil or suffering hey. Sounds about right. I mean, that's the kind of descriptions they used to use alright.
The thing I have noticed, however, in The Lion Wakes by Robert low, is that Low depicts Wallace with his Scotsmans love of this heroic figure. Enormous, larger than all men, uses a 'hand and a half' sword with one hand while all other men need two hands.
I wondered while reading all this whether this is the hero that Scotsmen see when they speak of him, or is it what the real man was like....??? ."
I saw his sword once, and there's little doubt he was a big man. That probably sounds a bit like something from "Benny Hill", so to explain, I visited the Wallace monument in Scotland and his sword is on display there. Its about the same height as I am. If he was able to swing that thing he must have been a big fellow and if he could do it one handed he must have been massive.
I wonder if he swung it with two hands like everyone else did with swords of that kind. And, dare I say, being the leader that he was, wanting to be feared and respected by his English enemies, did he perhaps have a sword fashioned for him that was larger than was required?
Without being there I guess we'll never know.:)
Thanks for the info on the big sword though. That helps me being too skeptical now, as I read The Lion Wakes.
As I mentioned in some other threads, creative embellishments are nearly impossible escape in film, or big productions at least, where preference is given to mass appeal over the finer historical detail. It might have riled the Scots, or the Brits, but I, for one, enjoyed the high-level history, the battle scenes, the humour, even the cheesy drama and cliched theme of romance and revenge ... maybe it was the adolescent in me >8)
What movies like Braveheart do most of all, is raise awareness about some historical episodes that most people are simply ignorant of. Sure, it was somewhat melodramatic and historically inaccurate at times, but no one else made a movie on the subject. At the time, I only knew that Scotland existed and neighboured England on the island ... it was that movie that inspired me to learn more about its history. It is quite possible that I would not learn of the wars if it wasn't for Braveheart, and it is also within the realm of possibility that I would not be reading your books on the subject, dear authors. In fact, one could go so far as and date to suggest that you are riding the coattails of this trash historical production!
... in my case, anyway >8)
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At the risk of sounding like a history snob. :) You are the exact audience that Hollywood targets when they make a hash of the history that belongs to a country other than their own. The British Empire (or other).
Think of it this way. Where your family came from. If Hollywood made a movie about a nations history that you are linked to. About a legendary figure of your history, would you expect them to screw it completely up and just make crap up as they went? :) lol I think you'd expect as close to factual as possible.
The Americans would. I have no doubt. If it was Gettysburg or the battle of Baton Rouge.
I'm not asking for the Scots or the Brits to like the movie either, only to see certain benefits that it may have produced >8)
Personally, I like when Hollywood makes movies set in my old country ... even if they are controversial! I tend to be a history snob myself, but beggars can't be choosers, and I'm more lenient to historical discrepancies in film adaptations than I am to similar tweaks in novels. The latest such film, Defiance, received its share of criticism from various groups. Check out the "Response" section of the wikipedia entry for some examples, if you are curious.
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We've long grown accustomed to Hollywood inaccuracies over here and are usually big enough to handle it. I'm certain there are exceptions, but can't name them off the top of my head.
But this is politics that still resonates strongly. I can go today to twitter and find a politician attacking Scots because Gibson said that Bruce betrayed Wallace and using this to make political attacks. (Along with his father who was already dead *eye roll*)
I think you have to be very careful about what you say about another country's heroes. I don't think they have to be treated as sacrosanct in the least, but attacks on national heroes should not be spurious. I wonder how Americans would love a movie portraying Washington as conspiring with Cornwallis and that he only won because some idiot forced him to charge.
I'm so SURE the Bruce didn't care that THREE of his brothers had been hanged, drawn and quartered by the English. He defeated them at Bannockburn because he was twiddling with a piece of cloth and some guy in the army gave him a "look". And how convenient that an army three times the size of his just lay down and let his run over them. NOT!
End of Rant. Sorry.
I was speaking with an elderly Scottish couple recently about this Braveheart thing and they had nothing positive to say about the movie. Thought it was a hollywood extravaganza that made a mockery of their history. That it created a set back for their countries history.....seeing as so many foreigners, and even Scots who didn't know their own history, now believe that the Braveheart movie was how it was.
This is why I didn't like the movie Braveheart. I thought it was a good story, but not a good movie. If that makes sense. I saw it once and watched half of it many, man..."
I really dislike the inability to present Wallace as anything but a super-hero. Maybe it is because almost nothing is actually known about the man, but he is always this cardboard cutout character. I have yet to find a novel that treats him otherwise. In
Freedom's Sword, I actually dealt with him as little as possible.
I haven't read Low's books so I'm not sure which "Bruce brothers" you are talking about. Let's remember that three of them had been hanged, drawn and quartered by the English by the time of the fighting in Ireland.
And they didn't exactly "invade" Ireland, since Edward Bruce was invited by the Irish. If Low says that the English were fine and dandy invading but the Scots evil, I'd say he was wrong. There was a lot of suffering from famine in Ireland but little of it had to do with the Scots. Personal opinion, I think Robert the Bruce's main goal was to keep the English busy in Ireland.
I would say if you ignore the fact that after Bannockburn the Scots remained at war with England for another thirteen years, you are ignoring the real reason for most of what they did. I don't expect the Bruces to be treated with kid gloves, but if Low has hate going for them, I'll end up skipping his new novels.
I like Low's Oathsworn series a lot so I very much want to read those too.
Ancient & Medieval Historical Fiction
Books mentioned in this topic
Edward II: The Unconventional King (other topics)The Steel Bonnets: The Story of the Anglo - Scottish Border Reivers (other topics)
Edward II (other topics)
A Great and Terrible King: Edward I and the Forging of Britain (other topics)
Kingdom (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Seymour Phillips (other topics)Kathryn Warner (other topics)
George MacDonald Fraser (other topics)
Robyn Young (other topics)
Jack Whyte (other topics)
More...
Listed below are a few titles that I am aware of ... all of these focus on the first war ... more suggestions would be welcome!
First & Second Wars of Scottish Independence - Fiction
The Douglas Trilogy
A series by J.R. Tomlin narrating the exploits of James Douglas. Second book set for release in February 2012.
The Kingdom Trilogy
New trilogy by Robert Low set in the First War of Scottish Independence. Second novel due out in February 2012.
N. Gemini Sasson's Bruce Trilogy
Tells the story of Robert The Bruce beginning in 1290 until his death (?) in 1329.
Nigel Tranter's Bruce Trilogy
This trilogy tells the story of Robert the Bruce and how, tutored and encouraged by the heroic William Wallace, he determined to continue the fight for an independent Scotland, sustained by a passionate love for his land.
The Bravehearts Chronicles
New trilogy from Jack Whyte created to tell the tales of William Wallace, Robert the Bruce, and James Douglas. "The Forest Laird", first in the series, focuses on William Wallace.
Freedom's Sword
Written by J.R. Tomlin, the novel follows the exploits of Andrew de Morray, a lesser known hero of the Wars of Scottish Independence.
The Wallace
Another title by Nigel Tranter. As per title, William Wallace is the subject of this novel.
Insurrection
Robyn Young's depiction of Robert the Bruce, beginning with the revolt in 1297.
The Great Scot
Yet another Robert the Bruce story. Here, Duncan A. Bruce appears to focus on events following Bruce's coronation in 1306.
First & Second Wars of Scottish Independence - Non-fiction
Assorted non-fiction recommendations.
Later Period:
Non-fiction:
Fiction:
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