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This just seems suspect to me. This is clearly labeled as being from a photoshoot, and the subject seems to be looking directly at the camera, but it is uploaded as own work. Also, I've been able to find this image and several others clearly from the same photoshoot on the web, and they all have the same weird cropped corner, as if there was maybe a watermark or something there and they cropped it out. I simply cannot think of another reason to crop in such an odd way. Just Step Sideways (talk) 01:08, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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This file is different from other third-party images hosted on NWS servers that are the subjects of recent DRs. In this case, the source is explicitly given on the NWS page as "Unless otherwise noted, pictures courtesy ODOT District 4."
The Ohio Department of Transportation copyright policy states:
"Many, but not all, of the products and material the Ohio Department of Transportation produces are public records and are open for non-commercial reuse or duplication. Some items, such as the Official Transportation Map, are fully copyrighted, and reuse is expressly restricted.
Reuse of any and all material for commercial purposes is generally prohibited. Waivers to reuse material for educational purposes, and/or by non-profit or other governmental entities will be considered on a case-by-case basis depending on the source material and intended reuse. Accreditation to ODOT for appropriated material is requested." (emphasis mine)
Delete per above - with the obvious caveat that ODOT may be willing to release this image into public domain and any editor is free (as always) to ask them to do so. But as of now, no evidence this is sufficiently licensed for Commons. Berchanhimez (talk) 23:42, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Per the disclaimer linked at the bottom on the webpage, "The information on National Weather Service (NWS) Web pages are in the public domain, unless specifically noted otherwise, and may be used without charge for any lawful purpose...The information on National Weather Service Web servers and Web sites is in the public domain, unless specifically annotated otherwise, and may be used freely by the public." Given this disclaimer, several reliable source media outlets use the photograph under a public domain license, even citing NWS or NOAA as the source for the image including: The Philadelphia Inquirer, Cleveland, US Tornadoes, and funny enough, the Ohio State Government uses the photo, citing the source as NWS. If the Ohio State government is using the photograph & says NWS is the source, it is public domain. WeatherWriter (talk) 23:50, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The fact others have violated its copyright does not mean we can do that. Commons does not rely on "implicit" evidence of copyright status as you want them to do. Berchanhimez (talk) 23:55, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will give you a chance to strike and amend your statement, given you have put words in my mouth. Please strike/amend your statement to not attack me by putting words in my mouth. WeatherWriter (talk) 00:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say you said anything. You are using implicit evidence (such as other sources using the photo) - that is not acceptable on Commons as proof of copyright status. The mere fact other sources have also violated copyright does not mean we do on Commons. It is not an attack to point out that your statement was based solely on implicit evidence, which is not sufficient. Berchanhimez (talk) 00:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that The Philadelphia Inquirer, Cleveland.com, US Tornadoes,(not a reliable source, but anyway...) and the Ohio State Government incorrectly attribute the image to the NWS should tell us something about the perils of relying on such third-party attributions. If, as you claim, the image was in the public domain, then the correct attribution should be "Public domain", and perhaps the ODOT as a courtesy. If, as I claim, the image is not in the public domain, then the attribution should be "ODOT" or "ODOT via NWS". But either way, "NWS" is demonstrably and obviously wrong and only exemplifies the unreliability of this approach to evaluating the copyright and licensing status of any of these images. --Rlandmann (talk) 00:55, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And plus; those newspapers could have gotten express permission from ODOT. Using that as a rationale would majorly go against the precautionary principle. That amounts to an “I can get away with it because it’s ‘common property’ and found all over the internet” argument. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 18:35, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Clearly we’ve got contradictory statements. Either the federal government is wrong or the state of Ohio is wrong. I think the latter is because it is east to confuse stuff on NWS servers for NWS created stuff (and misrepresent the NWS as the owner rather than ODOT); it clearly underscores the danger of such assumptions. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 18:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Closing admins should familiarise themselves with the evidence and discussions at this RfC when closing this request.
Keep For the following reasons:
The image originates from this web site by the National Weather Service (NWS). The NWS noted the photo was, "courtesy ODOT District 4". Per the disclaimer linked at the bottom on the webpage, "The information on National Weather Service Web servers and Web sites is in the public domain, unless specifically annotated otherwise, and may be used freely by the public." We have confirmed evidence this image exists on a web site as well as the web servers of the National Weather Service (weather.gov).
The NWS disclaimer also states, "Third-party information and imagery are used under license by the individual third-party provider. [...] Please contact the third-party provider for information on your rights to further use these data/products." See instances of usage below:
To me, all the things above, along with the previous deletion request being closed as "Keep", point to this image being in the public domain. Arguments for possible deletion would have to argue RS media, with editorial reviews, along with the direct Ohio State Government, failed to actually follow the disclaimer and illegally "license laundered". If clear evidence of the aforementioned was presented, then my vote would switch to delete. However, I highly doubt RS media along with a state government would fail to follow the disclaimer in its entirety, which helps provide evidence that this photo is free-to-use. WeatherWriter (talk) 02:40, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete For the following reasons:
Is not under dispute
The idea that "specifically annotated otherwise" necessarily means a formal copyright notice is simply a fabrication, made up out of thin air by some commons contributors years ago. The NWS themselves have never made any such claim, and their actual practice is quite different from the "rules" that a few Commons constributors invented for them.
The third-party provider in this case is the Ohio Department of Transportation. Per COM:ONUS, anyone wishing to keep this file should reach out to them and see if the image was ever released into the Public Domain or under a free license, or whether they would be willing to make such a release now. Without the explicit permission of the owner, it really doesn't matter what any fourth party has to say about the copyright or licensing.
I don't think it's fair to use the closing admin's decision the way you are using it here; it was made on the basis of a different and far more limited set of information than we have available to us now.
Works of the state Government of Ohio are generally eligible for copyright,[2] and we have no explicit evidence from either the ODOT who created the image, or the NWS who published it, that copyright was ever relinquished. Nor do we have evidence that this image was published prior to March 1, 1989 without a copyright notice or registration, which would make it ineligible for other reasons. --Rlandmann (talk) 04:20, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To throw the question out there since we should cover all basis, what is our evidence ODoT is the photographer? NWS? We have the Ohio State government and RS media saying NWS took the photo. If you are arguing we cannot trust the NWS disclaimer, then why can we trust the NWS’s authorship? Why not trust the Ohio State Government, who says the U.S. federal government is the photographer? In short: Besides NWS’s word (which the deletion request is basically whether or not “their word” can be trusted), what proof do we have that ODot took the photo? WeatherWriter (talk) 04:28, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good question!
The evidence is the NWS website, as the oldest and most independent source of this photo and its attribution, and which predates any of the other sources by at least five, maybe ten, years.
Bob publishes a photo and says he got it from Anna. Five or ten years later, Carla, Dave, Edith, and Freddy come along, republish the same photo, and say they got it from Bob. The chain of evidence/provenance still points back to Anna as the original source of the image (as far as we can tell).
We very definitely do not have anybody else (reliable or otherwise) saying that the "NWS took the photo". We have a bunch of sources saying that's where they got the photo. I don't see any of them making the claim that they got the image from the original photographer.
I have never said that "we cannot trust the NWS disclaimer". I say we cannot trust one specific interpretation of it which is grossly at odds with observeable reality and which the NWS itself disavows. I have personally reviewed over 1,500 images spread over many hundreds of NWS webpages, and can point to only a handful of times I suspect they've made a mistake in an attribution. They are extraordinarily trustworthy.
It remains possible that ODOT themselves got the image from someone else -- perhaps an EMA or private citizen. For the purposes of this DR, that's a distinction without difference, since it doesn't matter if we delete because we have no evidence that ODOT released the image into the public domain or whether we delete because we have no evidence that someone who gave it to ODOT released it into the public domain. The end result is the same.
Comment I must take issue with the allegation against me, "The closing admin admitted that the last DR had been improperly closed by counting !votes instead of applying copyright law and Commons policy." I closed it according the information I had in front of me in the deletion request itself. I was at the time unaware of Commons:Requests for comment/Third-party images published by the National Weather Service and the listing did nothing to make me aware of the existence of such additional discussion elsewhere. As I stated on my talk page [3] "If there are other factors &/or you think my closure was wrong, I have no objection to reopening discussion." If the user has issues with me I suggest they bring it to my talk page, or if they think appropriate start a listing about me at Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems. Now if you please let's get back to discussing the copyright status of images without personal snark. -- Infrogmation of New Orleans (talk) 14:36, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry Infrogmation. No snark was intended, but on a re-read, my words were indeed harsh. I've struck that comment and re-focused it on the actual rebuttal. That's my bad and I hope you can forgive me. --Rlandmann (talk) 20:00, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Image is sourced to ODOT and there is no evidence they aren't the creator of the image. It doesn't matter what you think about whether someone else would've violated the copyright intentionally or not. The bottom line is that there is more than enough doubt over its status that the precautionary principle applies. The fact that other people or organizations have not applied a precautionary principle of their own doesn't mean we can fail to do so also. The mere fact that others have failed to confirm the copyright status does not give us the right to do so. All of the arguments in the prior DR apply still and need to be considered by the eventual close of this discussion. Berchanhimez (talk) 07:30, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because since it was first listed, we know a lot more about how the weather.gov disclaimer operates in practice.
Examining third-party files on weather.gov that we know to be (or at least can be very confident to be) protected by copyright, we can observe that they are never attributed with formal copyright notices, but are generally credited "Courtesy of..." or "Photo by..." or something very similar.
We now know that the long-standing belief that "specifically annotated otherwise" necessarily means a formal copyright notice doesn't marry up with what we actually see the NWS doing on weather.gov.
There are really only two ways to reconcile the words of the disclaimer with what we see in actual practise:
the long-standing belief is correct, but the NWS is incredibly, consistently bad at following their own rules, to the point where they practically never get it right. If this is true, then it's impossible to rely on the style of attributions on the site to tell us whether an image is in the public domain or not. or
the long-standing belief is incorrect and "specifically annotated" just means attribution to a third party. If this is true, then it's impossible to rely on the style of attributions on the site to tell us whether an image is in the public domain or not.
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Keep It's a photo of a shop, any graphics are incidental and not the subject pof the image (and not clearly visible anyway) Sionk (talk) 17:24, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep It's a street scene, the adverts are incidental to it. On the nominator's rule of thumb we'd have no photos of Times Square. Sionk (talk) 17:59, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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This is not a gallery page: with only one photo. In my opinion a gallery page has a lot of images and the purpose is "to present readers with a structured and meaningful collection of the media found here on Wikimedia Commons" (see Commons:Galleries). This gallery page does not meet these criteria. JopkeB (talk) 05:01, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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The statue was completed in 1975 by Agustín de la Herrán Matorras (1932–). There is no freedom of panorama in Ecuador, permission from the sculptor is required.
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This Flim is a part of 1990's American Film Technologies colorized edition. His upload again, May I possibly suggest that account should be Indefinite blocks. ConcededBear657 (talk) 01:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The image is an almost exact copy of this image, Original black and white title with the only difference being the coloring of the image, which is a really simple coloring and is below the threshold of originality. Under US copyright law, colorizing entire movies generates a new copyright, but not the colorization of individual frames, nor the text shown in the image which is too simple to attract copyright. The New Foxy (talk) 06:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete I suspect you're right that these are over COM:TOO Japan. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:38, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
Keep: Per the disclaimer linked at the bottom on the webpage, "The information on National Weather Service (NWS) Web pages are in the public domain, unless specifically noted otherwise, and may be used without charge for any lawful purpose...The information on National Weather Service Web servers and Web sites is in the public domain, unless specifically annotated otherwise, and may be used freely by the public." Given this disclaimer, several reliable source media outlets use the photograph under a public domain license, even citing NWS or NOAA as the source for the image including: The Philadelphia Inquirer, Cleveland, US Tornadoes, and funny enough, the Ohio State Government uses the photo, citing the source as NWS. If the Ohio State government is using the photograph & says NWS is the source, it is public domain. WeatherWriter (talk) 23:50, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Comment I must take issue with the allegation against me, "The closing admin admitted that the last DR had been improperly closed by counting !votes instead of applying copyright law and Commons policy." I closed it according the information I had in front of me in the deletion request itself. I was at the time unaware of Commons:Requests for comment/Third-party images published by the National Weather Service and the listing did nothing to make me aware of the existence of such additional discussion elsewhere. As I stated on my talk page [3] "If there are other factors &/or you think my closure was wrong, I have no objection to reopening discussion." If the user has issues with me I suggest they bring it to my talk page, or if they think appropriate start a listing about me at Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems. Now if you please let's get back to discussing the copyright status of images without personal snark. -- Infrogmation of New Orleans (talk) 14:36, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
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