Commons:Deletion requests/File:Dead Man Walking Jarrell 1997.jpg

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

File:Dead Man Walking Jarrell 1997.jpg

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Per discussion on w:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Weather#Copyright of the famous 1997 "Dead Man Walking" image?. It appears this image is not in the publication of the NWS linked in the source. Its upload hinged on the assumption that this image is public domain because other images by the same photographer had sent images that were featured in the NWS publication. Earliest known publishing of this image is in a Time magazine article. Contrary to the template used on the page upon upload, Scott Beckwith was working under Jarrell Farm Supply and not the National Weather Service, and this image was thus not created by an official of the United States government under the course of their official duties. Per COM:PCP, and with the copyright ambiguity, this should be deleted. Chlod (say hi!) 12:46, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: withdrawn. --Abzeronow (talk) 01:05, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Dead Man Walking Jarrell 1997.jpg

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The rationale for keeping this image during the prior discussion is no longer valid. The NWS has said that third party images on their servers are NOT in the public domain. Barring any VRT confirmation; I am reluctantly forced to renominate this file. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 16:27, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Therefore, my vote is conditional delete pending any new information. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 16:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Before this devolves into another crapshow of a deletion discussion, I will be emailing the National Weather Service regarding this particular image, because this is extremely famous. Also WestVirginiaWx, they didn't say specifically that they weren't, that said they might (at least last time I checked).
Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs) 17:27, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well evidently you haven’t checked in a while. The main rationale behind the original template has been proven false by the weather service. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 17:31, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, well I'm still emailing NWS San Antonio. Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs) 17:32, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Direct quote from the NWS in Sioux City to @Rlandmann:
"…Our apologies for the delay in a response, but we wanted to run your question through our legal team before replying. No, not all images credited to members of the general public are in the public domain on weather.gov. In some cases, the credited image creator has only given permission for the National Weather Service to use the image on NOAA websites.
The disclaimer page that you cited in your email was created specifically for a prior photo submission contest and since has been used occasionally when requesting images from the public taken during specific storm events. It is the opinion of the legal team that they "do not believe a disclaimer, alone, can be used to transfer a copyright holder's ownership interest to NOAA or to abandon the copyright interest to the public domain". Since then, we have removed the questionable language on the disclaimer page...." WestVirginiaWX (talk) 17:33, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I'm still emailing San Antonio. They fall under this image. Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs) 17:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If they say that it IS public domain; make sure to tell them to forward their reply to the VRT. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 17:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. If it is, then someone needs to email whoever the heck runs all NWS subdivisions, because this is a disagreement within the NWS. Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs) 17:36, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should I copy-and-paste the email content here before sending? Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs) 17:44, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dear NWS Austin/San Antonio,
Hello! I am one member of a team of people who work on tornado-related pages on Wikipedia, and we had a few questions about the copyright status of several tornado images that have come to our attention:
1. The first image that we had a question with is the famous "Dead Man Walking" image from the May 27, 1997 Jarrell F5, taken by Scott Beckwith (who did not work at the National Weather Service) and is a third-party. This image can be found here: May 27, 1997 Central Texas Tornado Outbreak (arcgis.com). Since this image is featured in a National Weather Service-authored webpage, does this make it public domain?
2. Are images put into the public domain once they are featured on a NWS webpage, whether permission was asked or not?
3. Does the National Weather Service ask for permission to put all images not made by an employee into the public domain?
4. How early on was the NWS Image Disclaimer (which can be found at NWS Disclaimer For Photo Use (weather.gov)) used, and are photos given to the National Weather Service before this disclaimer was implemented public domain?
Thank you for taking the time to read this email, as this is a very serious issue. We have already emailed one seperate National Weather Service office, as this could potentially change the copyright status of hundreds, if not thousands, of images. Have a great day!
Please forward this email to info-en@wikimedia.org and permissions-commons@wikimedia.org when replying. Thank you!
Does this answer all questions we have? Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs) 17:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nevermind, I have sent it. Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs) 17:55, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Since this was last discussed, we've been able to establish that the NWS has had many different image submission guidelines used by different NWS regional offices at different times for different purposes (summary of about 12 known, different, and contradictory ones in another DR here). A couple of them mention the PD, most of them do not. Since we have no way of knowing which (if any) of these the submitter actually used, we have no evidence of permission that the creator released this file into the public domain. --Rlandmann (talk) 04:34, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral until the NWS answers the email. ChessEric (talk) 06:09, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Still waiting for a reply. Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs) 21:29, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral Until the NWS actually gets around to answering my email. Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs) Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs) 21:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still maintaining my conditional delete vote (see under WestVirginiaWX) until said email is answered. Hurricane Clyde 🌀my talk page! 17:09, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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