Talk:North American beaver: Difference between revisions

Canadian Beaver

How did this get to be called "American Beaver" when its scientific name is "Canadian beaver"? :) Adam Bishop 19:34, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Canada might have been where the first specimen was discovered and "American" refers to the New World version as opposed to the European species. Let's face it, most North Americans just call them beavers. There are also:

• American Elder (Sambucus canadensis) - see Elderberry
• American Fly Honeysuckle (Lonicera canadensis) - see Honeysuckle

--Big_Iron 21:57, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Man, we Canadian should be up in arms over the Americans stealing all of our taxonomic terms. --70.77.45.29 (talk) 13:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

In Yahoo's database, the Canadian beaver has 197,000 pages; American, 98,700; North American, 24,400; New World, 630.
In Google's database, the Canadian beaver has 69,500 pages; American, 56,400; North American, 8,300; New World, 1,410.
--J.K.Herms (talk) 09:42, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

If this dispute is serious, the article should be moved to Castor canadensis according to the guidance of WP:NC. Walter Siegmund (talk) 15:29, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, wouldn’t “Castor canadiensis” have been the term most preferred by those unsung beavers who first discovered Europeans… namely, Quebec’s intrepid castors canadiens?
--J.K.Herms (talk) 03:28, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Photo

This photo is okay, but it doesn't give us a full view of the animal. It would be nice to have a pic that shows the animal's distinctive tail. the photo on the article has no copyright tag.LadyofHats 21:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

well no its not the american beaver

well i find this to be a big inslut ok MR. wise guy how about the canadian egle lol this is not right either so i dont see how funny it is to u to hear that CANADIAN EGLE!!!!!!!!!! change IT

"American" Beaver

The name North American Beaver is perfectly ok, but it has been shortened to "American Beaver" (As in the USA's beaver). Canada is the country where most of them live, and the Canadian Beaver is an icon of the country. You will never see a cartoon beaver draped in the stars and stripes, but always in the red and white Canadian flag.

The title of this article is a slap across the face of all Canadians. Unfortunately, it is nearly impossible to change it without disruption in Wikipedia.

68.145.210.24 18:50, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I didn't interpret "American" as being equatable to "US" in this context. In taxonomy, "America," "American," and "Americus" often seem to distinguish species of the American continents, or North American continent, from similar species on other continents. In the US and Canada, colloquially we just call them beavers. "American" or "Canadian" beaver seems important only when distinguishing them from the European beaver, or speaking more formally or scientifically. Determining which is really the most common formal name is subjective. While there may be more beavers in Canada, there are more humans in the US. *shrug*. -Agyle 09:30, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Finland

Aren't American Beaver also native to Finland?

They're an alian species common in Finland and Russia, and are sparsely found in some other European countries. [1], Table 1. --Interiot 16:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Common Names

Regarding whether the common name of this species is Canadian, American or North American Beaver, [2] implies one species Castor canadensis is called both Canadian and North American, but there are 24 subspecies. [3] has more detailed info and shows the regional distribution across the continent of castor c. Most scientific papers on google seem to imply its North American Beaver and that would be more accurate, sorry as I am to deprive Canada of a national symbol. But I'm not certain, I guess this is why we use scientific rather than common names. Even among flowers and trees the same species can have several common names that are perfectly valid. The Mountain Beaver for instance is neither beaver nor lives in mountains Mhicaoidh 03:31, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Requested Move 2007

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Since the whole article refers to it as the North American Beaver, we should move it to that namespace, no? Any objections? - TheMightyQuill 17:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

• Helgen uses American Beaver in Mammal Species of the World vol 3. --Aranae 18:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Is that an objection, or merely a statement of fact? - TheMightyQuill 08:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Not an objection per se, but I'd like to see an authoritative reference cited or other quasi-objective rationale for North American Beaver being a more common than American Beaver. E.g., ITIS lists only "American Beaver" and "Beaver" as common English names. While I think "North American Beaver" and "Canadian Beaver" should also qualify be listed, I can't find any authoritative source that substantiates that, just a lot of google references. The best way I can think of querying Google's opinion on the best common name would be searching for the common names with the scientific name; results:

"American beaver" and "castor canadensis": 28,500 results

"Canadian beaver" and "castor canadensis": 888 results

"North American beaver" and "castor canadensis": 609 results

-Agyle 09:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Why is this an improvement? Is there a South American Beaver? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:43, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The question is more about what's the most common name, not which is the better name. As Themightyquill noted, the title is American Beaver, but article uses North American Beaver. After review, the preponderance of sources use American Beaver, so I propose changing the article, not its title. I'm prepping an update that also includes subspecies, one of which is called the Canadian Beaver, and will address the naming alternatives. -Agyle 20:23, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I look forward to it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:57, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I think "American Beaver" is the more common usage outside of Canada. "North American Beaver" is used frequently in Canada. However, I found "American Beaver" on Parks Canada web pages,[4][5] and a university web page.[6] I think this suggests that most Canadians do not object to this term. Consequently, I think "American Beaver" should remain the article title.Walter Siegmund (talk) 15:52, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 16:45, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Rationale for external link removal

Just wanted to point this out in case anyone is wondering. An anon IP added this external link, and it was properly (I think) removed:

• GLOBIO's Glossopedia; American Beaver-childrens science and nature encyclopedia

It contains useful info not found here, but WP:EL says to avoid linking to "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article." -Agyle 17:20, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Requested reversal of undiscussed move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move to American Beaver. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:04, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Canadian Beaver → American Beaver — 1) Page move was previously discussed and rejected; 2) Page was [then moved to a different name than discussed] without visible discussion or consensus (dispite the edit summary in the move); 3) Both sources used list species as "American beaver" [[7]] [[8]]. —Old Hoss (talk) 19:19, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose, sometimes people have to be bold to get things done. GreenJoe 13:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

So, besides "ILIKEIT", do you also have a legitimate argument? --Old Hoss (talk) 14:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

• Support - MSW3 lists the official common name as American Beaver - UtherSRG (talk) 22:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
• Support per naming discussion above; no data have been presented to change that conclusion. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

I propose we rename the article Castor canadensis, and create redirects at North American Beaver, Canadian Beaver, American Beaver etc. Mindmatrix 14:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

It is a reasonable compromise, but an unnecessary one. Other than the editor who moved the article and the opposing editor above, who are both Canadians, the consensus was to adhere to the recognized common name, American beaver. --Old Hoss (talk) 14:59, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Well. I am endorsing Mindmatrix proposal to rename the article Castor canadensis. This is a reasonable compromise, and will cut all the POV crap with whole "american", or "canadian" thing. nat.utoronto 16:17, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't really see how the recognized common name is POV, that seems to be a non-sequitor Wikipedia argument meant for an individual editor's assertions, not applicable to reliable outside sources. POV cannot be applied to scientific journals; unless you are claiming that quoting those sources is POV. Respectfully, in this situation, POV seems to be a cop out argument to avoid the real debate. ;) --Old Hoss (talk) 16:38, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree we should move the page to the latin name. That should eliminate the problem. Well, not really, but maybe it will be less of an issue. Kaldari (talk) 22:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. We do not do this for mammals. - UtherSRG (talk) 22:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment why not just use North American Beaver? 70.55.84.89 (talk) 05:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
• Comment Isn't the "canadensis" in Castor canadensis a bit of a clue that it's "Canadian beaver"? (And you kids in the back stop giggling!:) Per Macmillan Illustrated Animal Encyclopedia, ISBN 002627680, p.164, "Beaver, Castor Canadensis" vs. "Eurasian Beaver, Castor fiber". Franamax (talk) 03:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Size

The article says the American beaver is smaller than the European beaver, but American's average size is 20 kg while the European average is 18 kg, and the American ones can weigh "up to 45 kg" but the largest European wieghed 31.7 kg. I think there's a mistake somewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.168.191.176 (talk) 13:19, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

The source on the both beaver's size is sound. Please check if those specifically on the American breed here hold water. Mariomassone (talk) 18:44, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

American Beaver → Canadian Beaver — The proper scientific name of this animal is 'Castor canadensis', quite literally "Canadian Beaver". A Google search for "Canadian Beaver" yields 68,200 results while "American Beaver" yields only 58,500 or 16.6% less - a significant difference. The Beaver is also a profoundly important national symbol in Canada, where it is just any other animal in the United States, limited primarily to its north. If there is no consensus once again for this move, an alternative name might be "Beaver (Castor canadensis)" which would give you the common name used throughout its natural habitat with the scientific name for disambiguation; however, I believe there is ample reason to make it "Canadian Beaver". - Nbpolitico (talk) 13:13, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support per above - Nbpolitico (talk) 13:13, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support sounds good. 76.66.193.20 (talk) 21:33, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support yep, move it.    M   21:56, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
• We're supposed to "Determine the most common name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject"(WP:UCN). Google is inevitably not very good at this, no matter which version you use, but broadly speaking Google Scholar and Google Books are better than Google Web, because the web is full of pitifully unreliable sources. On both Google Scholar and Google Books, American Beaver defeats Canadian Beaver. In both cases, Castor canadensis beats both. On Google Scholar, Castor canadensis smashes the vernacular alternatives by factors of eight to ten. Even on vanilla Google, Castor canadensis scores 95% of "Canadian Beaver". I draw two conclusions from this
  1. There is no valid reason to justify the proposed move. Oppose.
  2. The most common name for this animal, according to usage in reliable sources, is Castor canadensis. Move to Castor canadensis.

Hesperian 02:50, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

• SupportModest support per proposed move, per proponent; web counts are not what they appear, and this cuts both sides, and I would just as well support moving this article to North American beaver (see below). Hesperian, should we also move Beaver to Castor (genus)? Bosonic dressing (talk) 02:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
  • What a delightful straw man. Perhaps you might try addressing my actual rationale, rather than posting a knee-jerk emotive reaction that completely misses the points I raised. The answer is no, of course not. "Beaver" smashes "Castor" on Google Scholar, even without bothering to filter out spurious hits on the latter e.g. "castor oil". Hesperian 03:12, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
    • The authority of Google counts (or lack of same) notwithstanding, broad or narrow (subjectively), this is hardly a strawman since numerous reputable publications support the name per the proposed move (e.g., ISSG list, entry for 'North American beaver' in Grzimek's Animal Life Encyclopedia). I'd be more convinced of the utility of moving this article to the Linnaean name if other similar articles were as well, for encyclopedic consistency and given the commonality of the term per the proposed move (using a broader search and in accordance with the common naming convention). Also, this isn't a specialised resource. Of course, the Oxford and Merriam-Webster dictionaries (which arguably reflect common English usage) note the 'North American beaver'. Bosonic dressing (talk) 03:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
      • I certainly agree with you that consistency is an important consideration, and that in this case it makes a strong argument against using the scientific name. Setting aside the scientific name proposal, the fact remains that reliable sources appear to favour "American Beaver" over "Canadian Beaver". The argument that the latter term is more common than the former is therefore refuted. The proposal therefore rests on the literal meaning of the scientific name (which is irrelevant), the importance of this animal to Canadians (which is irrelevant), and the distribution of this animal (which is irrelevant). Hesperian 03:39, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
        • Well, not quite; dictionary definitions aside (which note the 'North American beaver'), see below. Bosonic dressing (talk) 13:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose per the guidance of Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Controversial_names, "Editors are strongly discouraged from editing for the sole purpose of changing one controversial name to another. If an article name has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should remain. Especially when there is no other basis for a decision, the name given the article by its creator should prevail. Any proposal to change between names should be examined on a case-by-case basis, and discussed on talk pages before a name is changed. However, debating controversial names is often unproductive, and there are many other ways to help improve Wikipedia." Leave the name alone. However, I would support changing the names of this and the other Castor articles to their scientific names. Hesperian gives the arguments for this alternative. That would be my second choice. Walter Siegmund (talk) 10:20, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose - I think someone said it best in one of the last discussions regarding this subject that it should either be Beaver or American Beaver as they are the most common names. BlindEagle^{talk~contribs} 12:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Beaver is not a name for this species; it is the name of a broader group of animals that includes this species. One might just as well argue that the most common name for Adal (sheep) is "sheep"; the most common name for pine is "tree"; and the most common name for the Toyota Camry is "car". Hesperian 12:26, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I see your point of view. However, the common names for those items listed are not used generically to talk about a those specific items unlike the Beaver. BlindEagle^{talk~contribs} 13:48, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose for the reasons that Walter Siegmund has given. --Curtis Clark (talk) 13:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose - I tend to think that the best approach for this is to look at the broad industry standard references and copy them unless there's a compelling reason otherwise. Mammal Species of the World vol. 3 and IUCN both use "American Beaver". --Aranae (talk) 14:06, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

According to WP:UCN, we're supposed to "Determine the most common name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject." Google Scholar and Google Books are usually better at this than Google Web, because the web is full of unreliable sources.

Name	Google Web	Google Scholar	Google Books
American Beaver ("american beaver" -"north american beaver")	47900	788	810
North American Beaver	7190	441	611
Canadian Beaver	59700	475	716
Castor canadensis	57000	5890	945

Hesperian 02:53, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

There's something not right with the fact that when one does a search for "Canadian Beaver" they get redirected to "American Beaver". Out of spite I'm tempted to redirect "American Goose" to "Canada Goose" :P I'd like to support this but feel I must recuse myself because of a strong pro-Canadian bias. To be completely neutral perhaps renaming it to "North American Beaver" would be a better option. -- œ^™ 03:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

"the importance of this animal to Canadians (which is irrelevant), and the distribution of this animal (which is irrelevant)." It is not quite that simple, if it where then the Irish would not object so strongly to the use of the term British Isles and also the long long running dispute over the use of Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. We have to take into consideration Wikipedia:Naming conventions#National varieties of English which should also be considered as a counter weight to Walter Siegmund opposition "per the guidance of Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Controversial names"? Just counting hits from reliable sources would probably end up with American football at Football. Because the majority of English language sources originate in the USA, to reflect Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, consideration has to be given national varieties of English. -- PBS (talk) 11:21, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Why wouldn't the bias be present in the reliable sources? It seems to me that if this animal is of immense importance of Canadians, and a primarily Canadian animal, then a disproportionate number of reliable sources on it will be authored by Canadians, written in Canadian English, and use the Canadian name. If that is the case, then by explicitly taking ENGVAR into account, you're giving nationalism two bites of the cherry. If is isn't the case, then who are we to declare this primarily a Canadian topic? Hesperian 11:35, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

While I think this line of rationale is refuted, the beaver can be skinned any number of ways (so to speak). Apropos, I'm questioning the importance of the counts H. assembled above. When doing a search for "American beaver" in Google Scholar, a perusal of the entries on the first few screens reveals 'North American beaver' to be in prominence. Relatedly, I requalify my support somewhat for moving this article to 'Canadian beaver' ONLY because it perhaps is more properly assigned to the subspecies Castor canadensis canadensis. (Moreover, I find the Canada goose (Branta canadensis) comparison apt.) Given other notations above, I would support a move to North American beaver (with other major variants in the introduction) as my second choice, since that seems to be the most equitable of the terms available and is fairly common. As someone else proposed above, I do not see the utility in moving lay article titles to specialised Linnaean equivalents in, this, a lay resource unless absolutely necessary. Bosonic dressing (talk) 13:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

The counts given above for American Beaver are the results of the query "american beaver" -"north american beaver". Hesperian 13:38, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

It may be one explanation why the table Hesperian produced is skewed to "Canadian Beaver" for popular names (compared to books and scholar). If one nation is much larger than another (10 times the size) then the important to the minor nation may be lost in the wash for example a difference between 10% and 15% may not be easily quantifiable, and has to be treated with sensitivity, as the Irish debates show. You will notice that I am not stating an opinion either way because in this case I am disinterested, I am just noting that if the animal is of symbolic importance to Canadians, it is not irrelevant when it comes to naming the page.

For interest I ran the search on several different DNS country endings for comparison. I am not pretending that they are reliable. It is just to illustrate that national naming does vary from country to country and we have an obligation to consider national preferences if there is are strong national ties to a topic:

• about 2,050 for "Canadian Beaver" site:au
• about 143 for "American Beaver" site:au
• about 758 for "Canadian Beaver" site:ca
• about 998 for "American Beaver" site:ca
• about 293 for "Canadian Beaver" site:nz
• about 241 for "American Beaver" site:nz
• about 814 for "Canadian Beaver" site:uk
• about 16,500 for "American Beaver" site:uk

So from this rough and ready survey it seems Australians are more culturally biased towards the name "Canadian Beavers" than Canadians :-) --PBS (talk) 13:46, 2 July 2009 (UTC)