Talk:Agorism: Difference between revisions

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someone replaced the second and third paragraphs which had references, with an entirely different section, with no citations or references. it had one note referencing Schulman and his book, but Schulman was a science fiction writer inspired by Konkin. It would be fair to think that Schulman might have differed from Konkin regardless of his "inspiration", Konkin outlined agorism, a scifi writer didnt. This edit should be discussed as it had attempted to replace a referenced section with weak unsubstantial claims and shoddy references. 71.205.253.125 (talk · contribs)

Agorism is not a branch of anarchism

This page was earlier written as though agorism were a branch of anarchism. I have found no [reliable] source that says this (although Konkin and most agorists are certainly anarchists). I guess this is why there's no "agorism" link in the anarchism sidebar, but there is an "agorism" link in the libertarianism sidebar. As far as I can tell, what makes agorism what it is is its method of achieving results--counter-economics. If there's a reliable source that says agorism is necessarily anarchist, then I'd like to see it. However, even if this link is supplied, it could still be argued that someone who wants to employ counter-economics to achieve their ends is an agorist (as this was a unique point of view on how to achieve ends when Konkin first articulated it). The original Konkin text (where he coins the term "agorism" and gives his take on it) states that the ultimate goal of agorism is "bringing about a society in which all relations between people are voluntary exchanges – a free market." However, what a "free market" means is variously defined by sources. Whether or not a "voluntary society" can apply to anarchy is also a highly controversial matter. Also, the original Konkin text never (unless I missed it) provides a clear definition on what he regards as a "state" or "anarchy" or "anarchism".

Another problem is that there's so little written about "agorism" out there. Terms are often variously defined by sources. For example, this site currently lists David Kelley as an Objectivist more-or-less because he insists he is. If there are various sources which provide different definitions of what agorism is, then there's no official definition of what it is regardless of how it was originally defined (this applies to "anarchism"). I'm not aware of any other reliable sources for what "agorism" is other than the Konkin text, but considering that this is just what one guy wrote and not a philosophy encyclopedia or something, it seems pretty suspect to me to define "agorism" as a branch of anarchism because of what one person says about it. Byelf2007 (talk) 23 January 2011

I agree that agorism is not a branch of anarchism, but rather a means of change. However, agorism is defined in this article as advocating the creation of "a society in which all relations between people are voluntary exchanges", this sort of society is inherently anarchist. Voluntaryism in practice is always anarchism; something is "government" if it is coercive, if it is not coercive (if it is voluntary) it is something else. Because of this I believe that agorism, as defined in this article, is inherently a way to transition to an anarchist society, and not anything else.--NickJVR5000 (talk) 00:41, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Undoing self-serving edits on this article done by J. Neil Schulman

J. Neil Schulman has a long history of adding himself into this article, and he's been edited out many times, was even banned, but came back under sockpuppet and IP accounts to put himself back in. For a long time editors were on top of reverting his bunk edits, but perhaps those editors have retired from Wikipedia, becuase his likely-untrue, absolutely thinly/wrongly-sourced edits have remained. I am going to remove most of them, and explain with sourcing why I'm removing them.

I am almost certian within days he will jump back on here with some account and revert the changes, but he will not be able to provide Wikipedia-compliant citations of why he is reverting them.

J. Neil Schulman was, according to Konkin, one of the first or the first people to use Agorism as a plot device in a novel (Alongside Night), so that will remain. But all of the "J. Neil Schulman co-created Agorism" was put in this article by J. Neil Schulman, and nothing Konkin, or anyone else of note, ever said confirms J. Neil Schulman's claim of being the co-creator of Agorism. Schulman was an early adopter at best.

I'll expand this entry as I make the edits to give more info than the short text I'll put in the edit box reason. LibPar2017 (talk) 00:35, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

FURTHERMORE read the first few years of edits on this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Agorism&dir=prev&limit=500&action=history From 2007: (cleanup,, added wikilinks, rm possible self-promotion/COI by Schulman, reorganized)

(Views on Property: bah... i attempted to link "neil j schulman" to the related article, but i am not a master in the finer points of wiki editing.) <THIS IS SCHULMAN TRYING TO ADD HIMSELF TO THIS ARTICLE.

From 2011:, (removed completely improper Schulman self-reference)

(Mention of Schulman removed where citation is needed since he have tried to insert himself into the article, been in numerous COI disputes and now blocked.)

(Eestoring a lot of deleted sourced stuff. This includes Konkin himself talking about Schulman.) <THIS IS LIKELY SCHULMAN TRYING TO RESTORE ("estoreing" is a typo)

His poorly-sourced edits years later: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Agorism&dir=prev&offset=20120316034200&limit=500&action=history In 2006, the only mention of Schulman on the article was "Science Fiction writer J. Neil Schulman promoted the ideas in his novel Alongside Night."

There are many more from him.

This is J. Neil Schulman on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Jneil&offset=&limit=500&target=Jneil

Every edit is on the article about him or on articles about his books, or agorism. He's also CURRENTLY BLOCKED for editing articles about himself and inserting himself into articles (Both of these actions are expressly forbidden on wikipedia.)

Here's him trying to prove he is who he says he is, and wikipedia editors who are versed in libertarianism saying they've never heard of him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jneil#Show_us_proof

The WHOLE history of this article has many examples of J. Neil Schulman editing it to insert himself with no real adequate proof of what he's adding.

After his Jneil account got banned, this is him coming back and making edits that are there today, Henderson Nevada (that's where he lives) IP address, 70.41.211.116

Here's a typical edit from that IP: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Agorism&type=revision&diff=489340936&oldid=489037763 adding in un-sourced puffery about Schulman.

The edits of this other IP address: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/70.41.211.116 are all Schulman stuff.

SOME MORE EXPERIENCED EDITORS MAY WANT TO LOOK FOR SCHULMAN-ADDED SCHULMAN PRAISE IN SOME OF THE OTHER ARTICLES EDITED BY THAT IP AND BY BLOCKED USER Jneil.

I'M NOT SAYING HE'S NOT NOTABLE. HE LIKELY IS NOTABLE. BUT HE HAS EDITED HIS OWN ARTICLES A LOT, AS WELL AS EDITING THIS ARTICLE ON AGORISM TO OVERPLAY HIS ROLE IN ITS CREATION.

=-=-

MY FIRST EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Agorism&type=revision&diff=740426935&oldid=738327211 Explanation; That footnote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agorism#cite_note-newlibman-1 links to Konkin's essay ("New Libertarian Manifesto") that defined agorism. It's a PDF, here: http://agorism.info/docs/NewLibertarianManifesto.pdf It's hard to make heads or tails of the footnotes in that PDF...... Because he starts the numbering over each section. And there's no page numbering on it. But.......the ONLY mention of Schulman in that PDF is a reference to his book Alongside Night and it's only as an EXAMPLE of Agorism in literature, NOT "this book/ this guy helped me invent agorism." It's in the last section, Action! Our Tactics It's footnote [1] IN THAT SECTION (there are several footnote number 1 in this thing), "......of course, publication, public speaking, writing fiction with agorist messages [1]. that footnote leads to "[1] E.g., Alongside Night by J. Neil Schulman (Crown, 1979; Ace, 1982) and expected sequels" There is NOTHING in that manifesto to support the claim on the wiki page "that agorism was created...... with contributions partly by J. Neil Schulman."

MY SECOND EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Agorism&type=revision&diff=740429289&oldid=740426935 Circular reference. This was text inserted by J. Neil Schulman quoting J. Neil Schulman and the reference is a book by J. Neil Schulman.

J. Neil Schulman LOVES CIRCULAR REFERENCES. He sometimes even says he's the co-founder of Agorism, then cites this article on Agorism (which he has heavily edited many times to add himself) as proof. Here's an example on his Facebook where he quotes a glowing fan letter someone (allegedly) sent him. The letter references the Agorism wikipedia article as how the person learned of Schulman's "contributions" to Agorism: https://www.facebook.com/jneilschulman/posts/10208996477489685

LibPar2017 (talk) 06:32, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

This is J. Neil Schulman. I have never, not once, contributed to or edited the Agorism article on Wikipedia. Whoever LibPar2017 is, is making that up 100% to justify his/her desire to rewrite history. I suggest reverting the article to wherever it was before this troll butchered it.

Today I removed another gratuitous L. Neil Schulman comment, probably inserted by Schulman, as has often with this article. was right after this part near the top: "It was first proposed by libertarian philosopher Samuel Edward Konkin III at two conferences, CounterCon I in October 1974 and CounterCon II in May 1975."

I'd invite any editors to look at another recent schulman addition, this one: "Successively, J. Neil Schulman criticized this thesis in "Informational Property: Logorights".[9] "

I don't think that's relevant to the article.

The other one can stay, in the "Literature" section, the mentions of Schulman there are the only real relevant thing with schulman in the article. The thing at the end about "alongside night" it gratuitous, but could stay, that movie does use the word "agorism" a heck of a lot. (though also has the heroes advocating for political change through the system more than via agorism.) ElizaBarrington (talk) 07:52, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I have removed the word successively at least. It isn't clear what that means here. Literally it means something like several times, but there's no reference to that. It could convey the idea of success, and that's perhaps why he chose that term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.175.77.9 (talk) 22:08, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

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Lede

Agorism is a social philosophy that advocates creating a society in which all relations between people are voluntary exchanges by means of counter-economics, engaging with aspects of nonviolent revolution.

Could someone with deeper knowledge of Agorism please rephrase this sentence so that it makes sense to curious persons who are not into the topic? Thanks! —Anthon.Eff (talk) 03:46, 25 February 2022 (UTC)