Talk:Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania: Difference between revisions

Distance from roof to venue stage

We currently say ``He climbed onto the roof of a building around 400 feet (120 meters) north of the venue stage but PBS says ``Crooks was an estimated 147 yards (135 meters) from where Trump was speaking. What is the distance exactly? Forich (talk) 15:59, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know, but these facts don't necessarily contradict each other. He could have been 15 metres from the edge of the roof, or 15 metres from the corner that was closest to Trump. I'm not saying he was. The distances seem to be approximate. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 17:48, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Then, I guess we are having two ways to refer to the distance: stage to general area of roof, and stage to position where Crooks made the shot. The distance from stage to the general area of roof is around 400 feet (120 meters or 133 yards) and the second distance is, per PBS, an estimated 441 feet (135 meters or 147 yards). Since the exact position of Crooks includes the roof, and is more relevant for effect of the coming ballistic studies, I vote for using PBS' estimation of distance. Forich (talk) 03:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

New York Times says 450 feet for distance general-roof/stage here. Forich (talk) 03:30, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

This is unfortunate quite antisemantic wording. How he climbed 400 feet while usnig 5 feet ladder (according to investigators) he purchased at morning of Jul 13 ? Change the semantic to add 3D dimensions of vertical "climbing" and horizontal e.g. "crawl". Note the ladder on video is much taller than 5 feet and nobody seen him caring such big ladder. Mabe add dim of horizontal 'walking' since his van was towed from from location 12 mil away, as widow of firefighter who intercepted bulet shot at Trump saing. That person (CC) whos WP article were just deleted - see discussion above. Maybe he, more than SS saved Trump life? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.26.112.39 (talk) 03:45, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Nobody claims he climbed 400 ft vertically.

400 or 430 or whatever feet is the distance from the shooter to the podium or stage area where Trump was wounded. When the cop fell from the roof of the building, the distance he fell is given as approx. 8 ft by most sources. --Naaman Brown (talk) 14:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

This source uses an estimation of 410 ft. –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 15:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

This one, 430ft. –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 16:00, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

This uses the same, more specific estimate (441ft) as PBS. –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 16:03, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

BBC says 443 ft. I suggest we mentioned the whole range of reported distance, from shortest to longest. In this case, the estimated distance is between 400 and 450 ft. Let's edit the article with the range for now, and we can later trim the range by discarding some of the estimates that are less precise. Agreed? Forich (talk) 02:17, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Separate investigation section

Would it be beneficial to remove the Investigation "sub section" out of the Aftermath section and make its own section, @Alalch E. has suggested that this be a talk page discussion. In the page Assassination of John F. Kennedy the investigation is a separate section. While in the Attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan there is no specific investigation section, instead its aftermath based on specific people, and similarly with the Attempted assassination of Theodore Roosevelt. However, other pages due to gun violence in the US such as the 2017 Las Vegas shooting have an investigation section and the Knoxville Unitarian Universalist church shooting page focuses more on legal proceedings.

I personally feel that a separate investigation section may be beneficial due to the number of calls for investigations into the actual event and the procedures/circumstances that helped lead up to it occurring, such as the case with the JFK page. Additionally, at this time the Investigation subsection is two paragraphs and will probably become more, which could make the Aftermath section too long. Leaky.Solar (talk) 16:20, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes+.Add what the ivestigators saying on the open window facing Trump (less visible,(third E) on S side of tall Agr building, opened before shoting). soruce cnn youtu.be/5z84JvteJaE?t=129. Note cnn edited the video - ligtspot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.26.112.39 (talk) 18:58, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Aftermath is that which happened afterwards and is causally related to the event. The investigation happened afterwards and is causally related, and so investigation is aftermath, not the whole of it, but a quintessential part of it. Putting it outside of the "Aftermath" section, as as an equal-level section, indicates semantically that the investigation is not among the things that happened after the event, and that is a false statement. It is illogical. An exception can be made for more remote phenomena such as reactions, legacy, historiography etc., but the investigation along with the immediate aftermath of Trump being evacuated is the next most proximate causally linked thing in the aftermath, and it is the prime and core element of the aftermath. So as long as we have the "Aftermath" section, it will be that the existence thereof is justified precisely by including coverage of the investigation, and when we remove the investigation from "Aftermath", then the "Aftermath" section is no longer justified and should be dismantled into constituent parts. So yes, we can also not have "Investigation" as a subsection of "Aftermath", but only if we do not have "Aftermath" in the first place as a discrete section. What we can't have is equal-level sections named "Afermath" and "Investigation". We could have "Immediate aftermath" and "Investigation" as equal level sections as in Assassination of John F. Kennedy, however. —Alalch E. 14:59, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

The JFK example doesn't really work: the investigation started before much of what is discussed in the "immediate aftermath" section. Furthermore, one definition of aftermath is (per Merriam Webster), "the period immediately following a usually ruinous event."

Also, "aftermath" doesn't just mean the things that happened afterwards. Another M-W definition of "aftermath" is "consequence, result". An investigation is a response, not a consequence. Ccrrccrr (talk) 19:36, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Timeline, following the media, is at fault massively

The article currently follows media descriptions that Crooks had been on the roof for a long time and seen by the Secret Service Snipers already at 5:52, almost 20 minutes prior to the shooting. This raises the question why they did let Trump take the stage and why they did not do anything against Crooks - and this gives way to the (with that said, plausible!) conspiracy theory that the Secret Service had planned Trump's death. Also it raises the question why Crooks had a free sightline to Trump at the podium for some 8 minutes, and did not fire for no apparent reason.

While the New York Post is not my favorite quality medium, they seem to have the right timeline with Crooks entering the roof only at 6:09. Then everything makes sense: The Secret Service knew about a suspect, but they did not take him too seriously - and then it escalated quickly! Correcting the article in this regard seems to be top-priority and urgent. --KnightMove (talk) 13:01, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

See wp:or. Slatersteven (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

It's not hard to understand that this correct timeline is a sourced information. --KnightMove (talk) 13:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

See many conversations above about why and how this happened. By the way, that source says "Around 5:45 p.m. — 26 minutes before the shooting — the same Beaver County cop spotted Crooks a second time, now on the roof", I find no mention of 6:09. Slatersteven (talk) 13:20, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Then scroll down to the (and within the) timeline. The article was apparently not updated in the same way as the timeline, which now says:

"5:45 Crooks spotted scoping out roof A cop... sees Crooks eyeballing the roof od the AGR International building, which had a clear sightline to the podium..."

"6:09 Crooks scales roof Right around this time, Crooks climbed up onto the roof...."

And I had some look into the conversations above, and this topic has not been addressed yet - or can you show me where? --KnightMove (talk) 13:41, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

This time line contradicts their own text, no wonder the NY post is not an RS. Slatersteven (talk) 13:48, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Unsurprisingly, also other and more prestigious media cover the correct timeline already, like the Financial Times here:

"6.05pm: As Trump began addressing the crowd, people outside the perimeter fence noticed Crooks. Greg Smith told the BBC he saw someone “bear-crawling up the roof” a few minutes into Trump’s speech and alerted police."

"6.09pm: Four minutes into the speech, Mike and Amber DiFrischia noticed Crooks and began recording him. DiFrischia told CNN his wife spoke to nearby police."

So let him be on the roof already a bit earlier than 6:09, but only minutes after Trump had opened his speech. Anyway our article does not cover at all yet that Crooks climbed onto the roof so closely before the shooting. --KnightMove (talk) 14:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

This does not mention that law enforcement also saw him, it is not a complete time line. Slatersteven (talk) 14:37, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

And that entitles you to ignore the source for what is written in their time line? Which sources now quoted in the timeline do give a "complete time line", from your point of view? --KnightMove (talk) 15:06, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

No, it means you do not get to ignore all the other timelines (also provided by "the media", we go by what the majority say. Slatersteven (talk) 15:08, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

"Following the media" i.e. sources, is kindof our thing. GMG^talk 14:01, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

When sources have published information on a confusing event which then turned out to be wrong by further research, it should be kindof our thing to get the facts straight. --KnightMove (talk) 14:07, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Only when published by a reliable secondary source. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:10, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

We're not in the fact-straightening business. —Alalch E. 15:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure you're making the strongest case when you lead off by saying you don't even really favor the reliability of the source you're referencing. GMG^talk 15:49, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: @Objective3000: @Alalch E.: @GreenMeansGo: So, let's have a look at the 'majority' of the sources Slatersteven referred to, and what they say compared to our article.

In the timeline table, our article currently states

"5:52 A member of the BCESU tactical team sees Crooks on a roof, notifies other security services, and photographs him, the second such incident. Secret Service snipers spot Crooks. Approximately a minute-and-a-half before the shooting, several members of the public report their own sightings to law enforcement officers."

There are six sources cited for this block of statements. The 5:52 time is written only on the ABC News source, which claims "5:52 p.m. Crooks was spotted on the roof by Secret Service", and the WDSU, which explicitly quotes ABC News. So, that's one source. We have not taken over ABC's claim that Crooks had been spotted by the Secret Service. Further, WDSU already qualifies the ABC News statement by writing "on the roof of a building". As you see, our article also qualifies by writing "a roof", not "the roof".

Of the other sources, the older Washington Post article explicitly adresses witnesses "at least 86 seconds before gunfire", not at earlier times. The other Washington Post article states "Guglielmi said that about 20 to 30 minutes before the shooting, local police ... warned the Secret Service security team by radio of a suspicious person with a golf range finder and backpack.", and "WPXI television news reported that the officer called in around 5:45 p.m. — 26 minutes before Crooks opened fire from the roof." The Washington Post does not write about Crooks being on "the roof" or "a roof" at an earlier time.

The BBC article states "A man with a rifle was seen on a rooftop minutes before shots..." based on an interview with witness Greg Smith. If you watch the video, Smith clearly says "...and probably five to seven minutes of Trump speaking, I'm estimating here, I've no idea, you know, but ... we noticed a guy crawling, erm, bear-crawling up the roof..." So, for over one week now we have the evidence reported by serious media that Crooks climbed on that roof only during the Trump speech, few minutes before firing.

I should not have written "following the media". My bad. Our timeline does not follow the media, it violates WP:SYNTHESIS, collecting different claims from different reports into what is a misleading and incomplete timeline.

Hopefully this is sufficient that you take the topic more serously. --KnightMove (talk) 03:46, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

PS: WDSU explicitly states "Around 6:10 p.m. — After rally-goers notice a man climbing on the top of the roof of a nearby building, a local law enforcement officer climbs to the roof, according to two law enforcement officials." So basically our timeline and the 5:52 claim is based on ONE outdated source, ABC News. --KnightMove (talk) 03:51, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

How many of thee sources were published within the last 5 days? Also these all tsalk about what the crowd saw, not what the police or federal officers saw., thus they are not complete chronologies (as has already been stated). Slatersteven (talk) 09:11, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Here is a more recent source, that does not only discuss what eye witnesses saw [[1]] and another [[2]] (which makes it clear its based on up dated information),. Slatersteven (talk)

Your first source, again, is ABC News, the only source to back up the claim as written. They repeat their scenario: "Officials said the snipers spotted the suspect, 20-year-old Thomas Matthew Crooks, on the roof of a building outside the security zone at the rally Saturday in Butler, Pennsylvania, at 5:52 p.m. ET."

However your second source, BBC, does NOT back up that timeline. Here it is clearly different:

"Later, around 17:45 local time, Crooks was spotted again, this time by a counter sniper officer around (!) the Agr International building - the one the gunman later (!) scaled up to aim at Trump."

"By 17:52 - 19 minutes before the shooting - the Secret Service was made aware that Crooks was spotted (!) with a rangefinder, and disseminated that information to other officers on site, CBS reported."

So Crooks was spotted by a non-Secret Service counter-sniper at 17:45 AROUND the roof, not on it. By 17:52 the Secret Service got informed. BBC does not claim that they had spotted him, nor that he had been on the roof already.

This does not back up the ABC News claim "Secret Service snipers spotted Crooks on the roof at 5:52 p.m."., BBC clearly contradicts this.

The Associated Press Timeline, updated July 21, confirms that Crooks climbed on the roof around 6:09 p.m.

Further, there is no base in the rules to discredit witness accounts cited by reliable sources - and consistently so. --KnightMove (talk) 10:16, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Aren't there other important gaps in the timeline thus published? For example, Comperatore was killed shielding his family with his body (as reported). This event was recorded by thousands of devices. The precise time for each of the shots fired, and who fired them, must be known. How did Comperatore have enough time to react? Which of the bullets fired struck which victim? When were shots fired law enforcement? Given the science of accoustical forensics, all of this must certainly be known (except possibly the data regarding victims). I am not an editor on this article, but all this will be reported here once it is known? I am surprised that two weeks after the event these data are not widely known. -Roricka (talk) 20:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 July 2024

Change this part:

The building housed three police snipers tasked with covering the rally, but none of them were positioned on the rooftop due to manpower shortages.

To this:

The building housed three police snipers tasked with covering the rally, but none of them were positioned on the rooftop. The now-resigned Secret Service Director Kimberly Cheatle claimed in an ABC interview that the reason why her agents weren't on the roof was due to it being sloped, which posed a safety risk. However, the roof that the USSS north sniper team used was also sloped, leading to doubts about her claim. Local law enforcement at the rally attributed the lack of roof coverage to manpower shortages.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-rally-shooting-unacceptable-secret-service-director-abc-exclusive/story?id=111962314

https://www.foxnews.com/us/swat-expert-explains-how-secret-service-could-have-prevented-trump-attempted-assassination

https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2024/07/22/congress/house-homeland-security-butler-trump-shooting-green-roof-00170389

Change this part:

This was attributed to "extremely poor planning" and manpower shortages.

To this:

This was attributed to "extremely poor planning", manpower shortages, and according to former Secret Service Director Kimberly Cheatle, the "safety risk" associated with a sloped roof, a claim doubted by security experts.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-rally-shooting-unacceptable-secret-service-director-abc-exclusive/story?id=111962314

https://www.foxnews.com/us/swat-expert-explains-how-secret-service-could-have-prevented-trump-attempted-assassination

https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2024/07/22/congress/house-homeland-security-butler-trump-shooting-green-roof-00170389 MightyLebowski (talk) 20:55, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Please no more WP:FOXNEWSPOLITICS as a source though. CNC (talk) 20:57, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

The law enforcement expert referenced in the article has been interviewed by CNN on other subjects, and Fox News is really just reporting what he's saying. Also, this article is under U.S. news, not politics. But if you want to exclude it, then that's fine. You can use this source instead:

https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2024/07/22/congress/cheatle-house-oversight-trump-shooting-secret-service-00170289 MightyLebowski (talk) 21:09, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Removed as it is still politics. I don't see a need for another source.

But, we did not include that one congressperson in the hearing said it was the result of DEI, having a female as the head of the Secret Service.</sarcasm> O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:35, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Fox News is MREL or marginally reliable. Would be better to cite other articles than Fox News, unless that is the only possible source for a claim. (Plus, if it is considered to be politics like above, then it is consider to be generally unreliable.)

In any case, it does seem like both changes are useable if we can get a better source on the sloped roof text. Speaking of, the text However, the roof that the USSS north sniper team used was also sloped, feels a bit weird to me. ("The roof that one of the sniper teams used was also sloped?" "However, a USSS sniper team was set up on a different sloped roof?" "Despite this, one of the sniper teams was deployed on a sloped roof?" Meh, doesn't seem like improvements.)

We might also want to cover that the roof was being watched until officers started searching for the shooter. --Super Goku V (talk) 22:35, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Revised edit:

The building housed three police snipers tasked with covering the rally, but none of them were positioned on the rooftop. The now-resigned Secret Service Director Kimberly Cheatle claimed in an ABC interview that the reason why her agents weren't on the roof was due to it being sloped, which posed a safety risk. However, the roof used by the USSS north sniper team was also sloped, leading to doubts about her claim. Local law enforcement at the rally attributed the lack of roof coverage to manpower shortages. Crooks did not undergo security screening, as his rooftop location was, according to law enforcement officials, outside the Secret Service's security perimeter for the rally. It was later revealed that two local SWAT-trained officers were stationed on the second story of a building adjacent and with direct line of site to the roof used by the shooter. These officers identified Crooks as suspicious after he failed to enter the venue. Just before the shooting, the officers left their post and began searching for him on the ground. MightyLebowski (talk) 23:47, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd really rather wait for a thorough investigation before piecing together a lot of observations/claims. We are an encyclopedia. O3000, Ret. (talk) 23:58, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

If my suggestion to MightyLebowski is excluded, as in the last three sentences suggested, would it still be a problem? --Super Goku V (talk) 00:50, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

This is what the official sources are saying, it's the job of Wikipedia to report that, even if it changes later. These are the same excuse that someone else gave in another topic, saying "well, Cheatle may change her sloped roof statement later, therefore it's irrelevant, and we shouldn't dedicate time to it." Also, reporting claims by the Secret Service, the Director of the Secret Service (now former), and local law enforcement is highly relevant for showing public officials that provide e.g. excuses, lies, conflicting information etc.

We are an encyclopedia.

What do you mean by this? Nothing I wrote is unfit for publishing on Wikipedia. MightyLebowski (talk) 00:51, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

They disagree, as do I. There is an ongoing investigation and until it is complete all of this is just speculation. Also what you have written is very wordy. Slatersteven (talk) 13:02, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

So you don't even want to include the sloped roof statement of the former director of the Secret Service? It can be as terse as you want.

There is an ongoing investigation and until it is complete all of this is just speculation.

There's already a statement in the article about how the lack of manpower is why the roof wasn't covered, which is only what local law enforcement say (along with tons of other speculative statements). Why is that included if there hasn't been an investigation yet? Official statements, like Cheatle's, should be included. It's unheard of to think otherwise.

Also what you have written is very wordy.

Not really, but it can be slimmed down. MightyLebowski (talk) 23:15, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Southern Sniper Team made the Shot

Change

Secret Service snipers were likely obstructed from being able to see Crooks as he crawled into a firing position due to the slant of the roof that Crooks was on, with the northern sniper team in particular having its line of sight obstructed by trees.

to

Secret Service snipers on the northern roof were obstructed from being able to see Crooks as he crawled into a firing position due to the slant of the roof that Crooks was on, with the southern roof snipers having to shoot instead.

CBS article confirms with federal officials that northern sniper team did not shoot. 207.96.32.81 (talk) 00:31, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Bumping thread. Left guide (talk) 08:03, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 July 2024

Please change "Trump stated that a last-second head tilt may have saved him from a fatal injury." to "A last-second head tilt may have saved Trump from a fatal injury."

For 2 reasons: 1. To match the body. 2. Many reliable sources, which are cited in the version in the body, make the claim in their own voice. Amthisguy (talk) 17:01, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

[[3]] [[4]], seems to be the attributation is correct. Slatersteven (talk) 17:05, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

From the second source you cited. "Former President Donald Trump might have lost his life on Saturday if he hadn't tilted his head to look at an immigration statistics chart."

Like I said, the reporters are making these claims in their own voice. Trump also made the claim, but that's not the issue. The issue is that a fact is being presented as just Trump's opinion. Amthisguy (talk) 17:27, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

If you accept Trumo made the claim, what is the issue with saying he said it? Slatersteven (talk) 17:36, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:WIKIVOICE

Stating facts as opinions is a neutrality violation. Amthisguy (talk) 18:15, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

"Trump also made the claim". Slatersteven (talk) 09:26, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

That's not the issue, which you have been dodging. I've been clear on this.

Wp:wikivoice

"Avoid stating facts as opinions. Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Wikipedia's voice, for example the sky is blue not [name of source] believes the sky is blue. Unless a topic specifically deals with a disagreement over otherwise uncontested information, there is no need for specific attribution for the assertion, although it is helpful to add a reference link to the source in support of verifiability. Further, the passage should not be worded in any way that makes it appear to be contested." Amthisguy (talk) 20:18, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

It looks like the sentence was removed from the intro entirely, so this doesn't really matter Amthisguy (talk) 20:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Moot

 – As mentioned by OP directly above, the material in question no longer exists in the lead, so de-activating the request. Left guide (talk) 21:23, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Bullet or shrapnel?

Something that may be worth noting in this article. Testifying today (7/24/24) to the House Judiciary Committee, FBI Director Christopher Wray said at least twice -- once in response to a question from Rep. Kevin Kiley of California about six hours into the hearing and once in response to a question from Rep. Jim Jordan of Ohio (the committee chair) about seven hours into the hearing -- that former President Trump's ear was grazed by either a bullet "or shrapnel".

sources: https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/shooting-of-trump-christopher-wray-testifies-congress/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWpq1RmNd3Q (CBS live stream) NME Frigate (talk) 21:35, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

On the other hand, Ronny Jackson (a licensed physician), has confirmed it was a bullet that struck Trump's ear. I don't know if it's worth mentioning what the FBI director had to offer on conjecture. Until a report comes out that definitely states one way or another, I would rather we err on the side of the doctor who has treated the wound.

source: https://apnews.com/article/trump-ronny-jackson-shooting-medical-report-e95a2888cd5eeb64820d6fa789b03463 (AP News) Kcmastrpc (talk) 22:40, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Ronny Jackson is the doctor who claimed that Trump is 6'3" and 239 pounds, and if wasn't for his diet would live to be 200 years old. In other words, he's a source whose statements regarding the former President have a known record of untrustworthiness. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:53, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Someone who physically examined Trump's injury is more credible than hearsay i.e. Wray saying he doesn't know one way or the other. By your standard, because Wray has a lied about or exaggerated things, he can't be trusted either.

Also, the comment about Trump "living to 200 years old" is obviously hyperbole, no human being lives past about 120 with current medical technology. Anyone who wasn't born yesterday would understand the hyperbolic context of Ronny Jackson's statement. MightyLebowski (talk) 23:07, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

And there's high resolution photos that show Trump being hit by the bullet, frame-by-frame:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/14/us/politics/photo-path-trump-assassination.html

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/07/13/us/politics/13TRUMP-SHOOTING-TRIPTYCH/13TRUMP-SHOOTING-TRIPTYCH-superJumbo.jpg

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politics/100000009570661/photographer-captures-bullet-streaking-past-trump.html

So there isn't really a question that the bullet hit Trump, there's photographic evidence of it. It's unrealistic for shrapnel to have hit him when he turned his body away from where the other bullets were hitting. MightyLebowski (talk) 01:25, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

That sounds like your WP:OR.

I'm more convinced by the head of the FBI saying we don't know whether or not it was a bullet or shrapnel than anyone studying the video like it was the Zapruder film. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:38, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Trump's licensed physician says the bullet hit him, and the NYT source says the bullet went right next to Trump head where he was hit, followed by him grasping his ear, then showing his hand with blood. Wray simply said he didn't know either way, whereas the other sources claim they do know i.e. Jackson saying it hit Trump, the NYT stating that the bullet trail went by his etc. It's not original research when the original sources are making the claim that the bullet hit Trump. MightyLebowski (talk) 01:51, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Ronny Jackson is not licensed or someone who could be put forth as impartial. Wray is correct because we're waiting for results of an investigation. None of the sources you link to say definitively that Trump was shot. NY Times says they captured a photo of the bullet "passing by" his head. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:55, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

He has medical credentials, is board certified in emergency medicine, and examined Trump. He's definitely a reliable source, even if you don't personally like him. This source reports Trump being shot:

https://apnews.com/article/trump-ronny-jackson-shooting-medical-report-e95a2888cd5eeb64820d6fa789b03463 MightyLebowski (talk) 02:01, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Being certified in emergency medicine reflects your ability to medically treat a patient; it's not crime scene investigation. Trump's physicians have a history of making statements about Trump's condition that are seen as being more in align with Trump's desired narrative than with truth. He is not a third-party source; if he's acting as Trump's physician, then he is in Trump's employ. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 02:40, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

That's your opinion, AP reports Trump being shot, based on the medical examiner's detailed report and description of the wound. MightyLebowski (talk) 12:02, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

MightyLebowski: there is no "medical examiner's detailed report"

I see you're new to these parts. welcome, and enjoy your stay soibangla (talk) 12:19, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Whatever your spin is, the AP source reports Trump being shot. MightyLebowski (talk) 02:55, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Jackson is certainly not a "medical examiner", and if he were, he would not be examining Trump on that basis, as Trump is not a corpse, which is what medical examiners examine. If you don't believe me, look it up. (You may also wish to look up the word "opinion" while you're at it.) -- Nat Gertler (talk) 15:06, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

there are no photos showing a bullet striking Trump's ear. there is no Zapruder film soibangla (talk) 02:04, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

A bullet going near Trump's head, as reported by the NYT, and Trump's medical examiner saying it hit him, is ample evidence. MightyLebowski (talk) 02:14, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

but there's other evidence:

Pittsburgh sent 10 officers. Four of them, as we exclusively reported Sunday afternoon, were hit by shrapnel when a gunman opened fire at the rally, killing one man, and wounding Trump and several others. The Pittsburgh motorcycle officers suffered only minor injuries and were treated at the scene. One later went to the hospital. Video from CBS News shows those Pittsburgh officers, just minutes after they were hit with debris, in the stands helping some of the injured, even carrying one to safety.[5]

Sources tell (WPXI) Chief Investigator Rick Earle the officers were just feet away from Trump when shots rang out. The four officers suffered minor injuries from flying debris caused by the bullets. Sources say the officers were hit with either plastic or metal fragments when the bullets struck objects nearby.[6]

soibangla (talk) 02:20, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

The main point I'll make is that Trump sustained an injury from the very first shot (before you even hear a sound, because the bullet traveled faster than the speed of sound), during which blood can be seen on his hand (in the NYT photo, prior to the next seven shots).

If you're trying to claim that shrapnel hit Trump, then it would have to be from the first bullet, which the NYT photograph shows a vapor trail right next to his head (right where his right ear was).

Common sense logic says that the bullet grazed Trump, since his head being turned would've prevented it from being hit by shrapnel from where the bullet landed behind him.

It's pretty hard for me to believe that anyone not being duplicitous would refuse to accept these reported facts.

Regardless, everything you said is WP:OR; just because others were hit by shrapnel, it doesn't mean Trump was, especially when he was injured by the first bullet that did not appear to land near him.

The AP source clearly reports that Trump was hit by a bullet, so this article should still state that fact.

One last thing, Wray said that he didn't know whether Trump was hit by a bullet or shrapnel because he didn't have those facts in front of him, meaning he literally did not prepare for the hearing, and does not know basic facts about what's hes' talking about (common among government officials these days). He said this when talking to Jim Jordan. So the entire premise of wanting to change the article to say that Trump as hit by shrapnel is based on an FBI director that didn't know the answer to the question, so his statement should absolutely not be included.

This topic is totally lacking the context of Wray admitting that he did not know the answer to the question. MightyLebowski (talk) 10:42, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

MightyLebowski that is not what Jordan asked and not what Wray was answering soibangla (talk) 12:21, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

That's just wrong. You didn't watch the entire clip. Jordan asks the question at 01:01:08:

Jordan:

"It's my understanding that the very first one was the one that hit the president? The very first shot, or is that not accurate?"

Wray:

"As I sit here right now, I don't know the answer to that. I believe we [the FBI] know the answer to that, I just don't have it in front of me."

Wray doesn't know if it's the first bullet that hit Trump, when only one shot is heard just after Trump grabs his ear. MightyLebowski (talk) 02:47, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Ronny Jackson does not have an active medical license. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:39, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Ronny Jackson. haha soibangla (talk) 01:59, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

if a bullet or shrapnel grazes someone, it is generally acceptable to say that the person was shot. The term “shot” implies that a projectile made contact with the person’s body, regardless of the severity of the wound. However, for clarity, you can specify that it was a graze if you want to emphasize the nature of the injury. For example:

Donald Trump was shot and sustained a graze wound from a bullet/shrapnel.

This specifies that he was shot but clarifies the extent of the injury. Astropulse (talk) 02:42, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Something that probably should be taken into consideration: Donald Trump now has explicitly disputed the statement of FBI Director Christopher Wray (who was appointed to that position by Trump himself) that there is some uncertainty as to whether Trump was struck by a bullet or by shrapnel. Posting today (10/24/24) on his social media network, Trump wrote, among much else, that the "hospital called it a 'bullet wound to the ear'". That said, as far as I know, the hospital's report has not been made public. Trump himself slightly misstates Wray's testimony: Trump describes Wray saying "he wasn't sure if I was hit by shrapnel, glass, or a bullet", but Wray never mentioned glass. Trump also says that "the FBI never even checked" but I'm not sure what he means by that.

source: https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/112850202227985061 NME Frigate (talk) 03:05, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

The New York Times now has published a story that may be relevant (it's mostly behind a paywall for me, so I can't say for sure) that includes these sentences about the FBI's investigation: "The bureau is assessing what caused the former president's wound during an assassination attempt. The question has turned political."

source: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/25/us/politics/fbi-bullet-trump-rally.html?smid=tw-share NME Frigate (talk) 03:19, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I think saying "shot at" will fix this problem. Master106 (talk) 02:17, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

"injured during a shooting incident" soibangla (talk) 02:21, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

That could imply that he could have gotten injured by anything, when he in fact was injured by Crooks. Master106 (talk) 02:23, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

"in fact?" no soibangla (talk) 02:29, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

If my Doctor told me I could live to be 200 "if only I had a better diet", I would get a new Doctor. In other words I would "demote" him much like Jackson was. Read his article for some insight. His medical expertise is questionable. He misreported his clients health to the nation. He is not a reliable source of "fact". Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 02:45, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Whether or not the injury came from a shrapnel or bullet they came from Crooks' gun. That is a fact. Master106 (talk) 04:25, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Sources tell (WPXI) Chief Investigator Rick Earle the officers were just feet away from Trump when shots rang out. The four officers suffered minor injuries from flying debris caused by the bullets. Sources say the officers were hit with either plastic or metal fragments when the bullets struck objects nearby.

Shrapnel. soibangla (talk) 04:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Even under that theory, he was still injured by the shooter. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:02, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

We could combine Astropulse's suggested "bullet or shrapnel" and Master106's suggested "shot at" wording to say "Trump was shot at and sustained a graze wound from a bullet or shrapnel" for the lead section. That is supported by reliable sources, including the FBI director in charge of the investigation testifying before the House Judiciary Committee and quoted in The Washington Post.[7] Elspea756 (talk) 02:54, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

A good option until we get a complete comprehensive report on the incident. Wrays testimony raises doubt. Until something definite is confirmed we are not at liberty to say either way. Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 03:09, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

lets do that Astropulse (talk) 03:18, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

its really about choice of words. we saw it on live TV - I dont know what the fuss is about. He was shot - but injury was minimal. so they say grazed Astropulse (talk) 03:24, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

we saw a shooting incident on live TV

we did not see a bullet hit him

Sources tell (WPXI) Chief Investigator Rick Earle the officers were just feet away from Trump when shots rang out. The four officers suffered minor injuries from flying debris caused by the bullets. Sources say the officers were hit with either plastic or metal fragments when the bullets struck objects nearby.[8]

soibangla (talk) 03:29, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

it says "At exactly the right moment, however, President Trump turned his head to read a chart, so that a bullet which would have pierced his skull instead grazed his right ear."

https://homeland.house.gov/2024/07/23/we-will-continue-to-push-for-answers-chairman-green-delivers-opening-statement-in-hearing-on-assassination-attempt-against-former-president-trump/

but that doesn't mean trump was not shot. he was shot. The term “shot” implies that a projectile made contact with the person’s body, regardless of the severity of the wound. Astropulse (talk) 03:35, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Nothing coming from a Republican-controlled committee should be accepted as true on its face. soibangla (talk) 04:05, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that that's a good solution until more information is released. FactOrOpinion (talk) 20:55, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Having "Trump was shot[dubious – discuss]" in the lead of such a high-profile article, for such well-sourced text, is an embarrassment to the encyclopedia. Marcus Markup (talk) 04:16, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Today the FBI, which has access to information the press does not, cast doubt on what the press reported perhaps in haste. The embarrassment might rest with the press. soibangla (talk) 04:26, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

In haste? We literally had this discussion a half dozen times because there was vagueness in the early articles. It is also why we had the RfC to determine if we should say he was shot which was SNOW closed as to include. (Which you should recall since it was your RfC.) --Super Goku V (talk) 05:17, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

From my understanding, the FBI director is not disputing Trump was shot by a bullet, only questioned this and (by default) "cast doubt" on the bullet theory.[9] At most this can be included in the body as FBI director has questioned whether Trump was hit by a bullet, or otherwise "cast doubt" on this. Not much else, this isn't a big deal yet. CNC (talk) 12:06, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

He's not disputing, but is questioning. Sorry, but that gave me a laugh. Seems to me this is a big deal because it has been made into a big deal, even suggesting multiple times that god had something to do with this. It's why I've always been a big fan of WP:RECENTISM which seems to have gone by the wayside. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:18, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Why did that make you laugh? I'm just going by what I've seen RS report, although I haven't searched extensively. Do you have a source that states the FBI director has disputed this claim, or is this original research? Recentism otherwise has little to nothing to do with this as the event itself remains very recent, the concept is for article imbalance towards recent events. It is almost impossible to apply towards articles based on recent events, unless for example we were to take this even more recent FBI claim more seriously than it is, then that would be an argument for recentism. CNC (talk) 12:39, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

he cannot confirm what the press has reported as fact and as a result it has been accepted as fact by most of the world

and he has access to confidential information that no one outside the FBI does, but he has not shared one word of it with the press until yesterday soibangla (talk) 12:29, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

This might very well be the truth of the matter, but WP is not about WP:TRUTH. CNC (talk) 12:41, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Right. It's about verifiability. And no one who can know has verified this. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:48, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Verifiability means WP:V to WP:RS, not as in reliable sources have verified. CNC (talk) 12:51, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

it's not a matter of truth, he neither confirmed nor denied what the press has reported. if he could've, maybe he would've, but he did not soibangla (talk) 12:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Don't follow your point here, mine was that we should go by what RS say, not what could be the truth of the matter from someone who might know better, as this sounds like WP:CRYSTALBALL. CNC (talk) 13:03, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

CRYSTAL suggests we wait for an investigation to complete. O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:06, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

CRYSTAL is about making sure content is verifiable to reliable sources, as already explained, nothing to do with waiting for an investigation to finish. It's simply about avoiding unverified opinions and speculation. It's quite clear that speculation documented by RS can be included, while avoiding undue weight. Hence this shrapnel theory belongs in the body with passing mention, but not as part of the lead. CNC (talk) 13:15, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Wrong, the FBI director later admitted that he doesn't know because he's ignorant of existing facts:

"As I sit here right now, I don't know the answer to that. I believe we [the FBI] know the answer to that, I just don't have it in front of me."

https://www.c-span.org/video/?537151-2/fbi-director-testifies-oversight-house-judiciary-committee-part-3

Timestamp: 01:00:56 MightyLebowski (talk) 12:14, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

So he doesn't know. And the doctors who treated him, the Secret Service, and the WH doctor aren't saying. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:21, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

he was replying to Jordan's question about where the bullets were, not a question about whether Trump was hit by one of them soibangla (talk) 13:17, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect. It's at 01:01:08.

Jordan:

"It's my understanding that the very first one was the one that hit the president? The very first shot, or is that not accurate?"

Wray:

"As I sit here right now, I don't know the answer to that. I believe we [the FBI] know the answer to that, I just don't have it in front of me."

Wray responds to Jordan's question about the bullet hitting Trump. MightyLebowski (talk) 02:48, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

So we wait till the investigation is over, and a public statement is made. Slatersteven (talk) 12:48, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

wp:primary "For Wikipedia's purposes, breaking news stories are also considered to be primary sources. Historical documents such as diaries are as well", so (again) we should wait before putting in our voice what Primary sources claim. Nothing is lost by waiting. Slatersteven (talk) 13:08, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

This is a good point, thanks for there reference. This implies the "shrapnel theory" would be breaking news, whereas recent coverage of the assassination attempt (since/after the event) isn't breaking news. CNC (talk) 13:19, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

They are both breaking news. The medical folks and the Secret Service have been mum and the investigation is in early stages. O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:25, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

yet reliable sources get a huge head start with a conclusion that is not supported by any evidence. no video, no photos, no medical report, no FBI report, no USSS report, no nothing. and yet WP is obliged to run with it. oh well. maybe I'll add this to Why Wikipedia is not so great soibangla (talk) 13:33, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that this is an argument for why WP isn't great, but policy is policy. CNC (talk) 13:41, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I honestly don't understand why there is such a controversy over this. Snopes has fact checked this and clearly laid out the evidence as to why it's very unlikely there was any "shrapnel" around that could have caused Trump's ear injury. There is literally nothing around him, the teleprompters are in tact, and the evidence seems to plainly corroborate what the significant majority of our reliable sources have reported.

You and i can theorize why the officers around trump were injured and my take on that is it's likely because once they'd rushed to secure him the shooter began firing rounds in that general vicinity which struck wood, staging, or whatever else was in their immediate surroundings. However, that's all theory, and we're not here to do original research.

Per my commentary earlier, I'm striking my misguided remarks on the general reliability of the FBI, because I see you've had extensive experience editing in this subject area. I will say though even if it were true, it's certainly not relevant given the actual evidence that we do have, and not what is supposedly locked away in the FBI's super secret lair. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:54, 25 July 2024 (UTC) Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:54, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Snopes fact checked if it was a shattered teleprompter. Not if it was a bullet. O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:58, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Not really though, quoted directly from the referenced Snopes article:

The theory that Trump's injury stemmed from a bullet, on the other hand, requires a shooter and a bullet. Unlike broken teleprompters, a shooter has been identified and a photograph documents the existence of a bullet passing by Trump's head.

Because there is photographic evidence of a bullet, and of a wound caused by a bullet, early and imprecisely sourced claims that Trump's injuries stemmed from broken glass are "False."

You could argue that Snopes is fact checking if his injuries were caused by shattered glass, but in doing so, they've implied that it appears to have been a bullet: nothing more, nothing less. Until there's evidence otherwise it seems WP:UNDUE to cast doubt on the matter because of the testimony of someone who is essentially saying, "I dunno, man." Kcmastrpc (talk) 14:07, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

note the narrow focus: glass

the early speculation was first about shattered glass, which was easily refuted by photos, then Snopes updated the story to include a splinter of glass from the prompter, which the fact-checker and others on the web say was merely a reflection, though I don't see if they are qualified to conclude that, but there is no mention of other possible fragments such as metal or plastic, which four officers feet from Trump were reported in a reliable source to have been struck and injured by. soibangla (talk) 15:02, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Breaking news means "an event that has just happened or just begun" [10] The assassination hasn't "just happened", instead there is more than enough RS since the event that document Trump being shot. CNC (talk) 13:40, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Wray testimony to Judiciary Committee

Wray said the exact nature of Trump's injury remains uncertain: "There's some question about whether or not it's a bullet or shrapnel that hit his ear."[11]

soibangla (talk) 01:54, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• That is certainly a reliable source for this, the FBI director in charge of the investigation testifying before the House Judiciary Committee and quoted in The Washington Post. Elspea756 (talk) 02:09, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Other details that emerged from Wray's testimony:

• On July 13th, Crooks owned the AR-15. Het did buy it from his father years before the shooting.
• Crooks flew a drone just a few hours before the shooting.
• Crooks did not use the purchased ladder to climb onto the building, he used nearby equipment.

Sources:

• https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp9vp4mkjpdo
• https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c6p267gvg17t
• https://www.cf.org/news/top-takeaways-fbi-director-wray-testifies-on-trump-assassination-attempt/

Uwappa (talk) 06:40, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Also another source that could be used with cite av media. [12]

"FBI director Christopher Wray cast doubt on whether Donald Trump was hit by a bullet during the attempted assassination at the Butler rally in Pennsylvania on 13 July." CNC (talk) 12:01, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

That's not the full context, Wray later went on to say that he doesn't know the answer to the question of whether the bullet hit Trump because he doesn't have the FBI investigative documents in front of him:

"As I sit here right now, I don't know the answer to that. I believe we [the FBI] know the answer to that, I just don't have it in front of me."

He also says that "I believe we've all accounted for all of the shots and cartridges", so Wray seems like he didn't prepare for the hearing, which is unprofessional (but to be expected from him at this point).

Another quote just before the aforementioned one:

"As I sit here right now, I don't know whether that bullet, in addition to causing the grazing, could have also landed somewhere else."

You should post the full quotes relating to this subject, rather than out of context excerpts.

Source for the quotes:

https://www.c-span.org/video/?537151-2/fbi-director-testifies-oversight-house-judiciary-committee-part-3

Timestamp: 01:00:56

It's pretty obvious that the bullet hit Trump's right ear, and Wray admitted that he doesn't know the answer to the question. Ignorance of the FBI director relating to facts about the case should't be included in this article. MightyLebowski (talk) 11:10, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Re: your quote, it was in response to the question "Where did all eight bullets go I guess is my question," not in response to a question about whether Trump's ear was grazed by a bullet versus shrapnel. Also, it's not "pretty obvious that the bullet hit Trump's right ear." The one photo with the bullet shows its path as too low to have injured the top of Trump's ear, and we can tell from photos that it was the top of his ear that was injured (e.g., https://www.chicagotribune.com/2024/07/13/donald-trump-says-he-was-shot-in-ear-at-pennsylvania-rally/) FactOrOpinion (talk) 20:52, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

That's not true, did you even watch the video clip? It's at 01:01:08.

Jordan:

"It's my understanding that the very first one was the one that hit the president? The very first shot, or is that not accurate?"

Wray:

"As I sit here right now, I don't know the answer to that. I believe we [the FBI] know the answer to that, I just don't have it in front of me."

Wray responds to Jordan's question about the bullet hitting Trump. MightyLebowski (talk) 02:50, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

What you initially said was:

Wray later went on to say that he doesn't know the answer to the question of whether the bullet hit Trump because he doesn't have the FBI investigative documents in front of him:

"As I sit here right now, I don't know the answer to that. I believe we [the FBI] know the answer to that, I just don't have it in front of me."

That's what I was responding to. The quote is accurate, but your preceding statement was not accurate. I was also mistaken: I quoted the wrong thing in response to you. I made that mistake both because your timestamp turned out to be off and because Jordan's follow-up question was not included in the automated transcript for some unknown reason. I agree now that your quote from Wray was made in response to Jordan having asked "It's my understanding that the very first one was the one that hit the president? The very first shot, or is that not accurate?" Hopefully, you'll now agree that Wray's response is not the same as Wray saying "he doesn't know the answer to the question of whether the bullet hit Trump because he doesn't have the FBI investigative documents in front of him." Wray is saying that he believes the FBI knows which shot caused the injury, but he doesn't have that info in front of him. FactOrOpinion (talk) 11:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Trump is widely despised within the FBI, and I have no doubt there are a significant contingent of agents there who are floating any number of wild theories. Properly phrased and cited, I have no problem with citing Director Wray's and his agency's admitted cluelessness as to what actually happened that day. Marcus Markup (talk) 04:07, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Please substantiate Trump is widely despised within the FBI and his agency's admitted cluelessness. There remains no evidence he was hit by a bullet. No video, no photos, no medical report, nothing. soibangla (talk) 04:15, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Allegations of the FBI having an anti-Trump bias are not new, this is easily Googled and I'm not about to re-hash their case or try to convince you of anything; I'll just say that from MY reading, that seems to be the case. Regarding his being "clueless" about what happened during the shooting, (or "shrapneling" or however our article will eventually end up covering it) that's perhaps not the proper word. He's been presented with plenty of "clues", it's just a matter of him simply not knowing at this point. I should have perhaps said he is "not sure" what actually happened that day instead of him being "clueless". Marcus Markup (talk) 04:39, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

this is easily Googled so do it soibangla (talk) 05:11, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Crossfire Hurricane:

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-special-counsel-faults-fbis-handling-2016-trump-russia-probe-2023-05-15

The FBI lacked "actual evidence" to investigate Donald Trump's 2016 presidential campaign and relied too heavily on tips provided by Trump's political opponents to fuel the probe, U.S. Special Counsel John Durham concluded in a report released on Monday.

MightyLebowski (talk) 11:57, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

That is OR, we go by what RS say, do RS say "Trump is widely despised within the FBI"? And lets wait until the investigation is over. Slatersteven (talk) 12:00, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

[dubious – discuss] in the lead

It is not "dubious" that Trump was shot (grazed by a bullet) as the tag in the lead currently says. It may not yet be conclusively proven but it is just as plausible an explanation as the shrapnel theory, although the shattered teleprompter screen theory has faded since the teleprompters appear to have been undamaged. FBI director Wray says that no firm conclusion has yet been drawn, but I am not aware of any reliable sources that make the case that Trump was not grazed by a bullet. Are there any such sources? Why is this dubious? Cullen328 (talk) 04:42, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

It feels like the never ending issue. I am two seconds away from starting an FAQ. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:47, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

as I mentioned in my RfC on this that was summarily SNOW closed as some suggested I was this guy[13], this is not about a shattered teleprompter screen.

The FBI has access to more information than does the press, and until now they have said not a word. There remains no evidence Trump was hit a bullet. No video, no photos, no medical report, nothing. With Wray's statement, there is now evidence to suggest the press may have reported hastily in a herd mentality. This may turn out to be a teaching moment for them, and us. I support dubious at this time.

Pittsburgh sent 10 officers. Four of them, as we exclusively reported Sunday afternoon, were hit by shrapnel when a gunman opened fire at the rally, killing one man, and wounding Trump and several others. The Pittsburgh motorcycle officers suffered only minor injuries and were treated at the scene. One later went to the hospital. Video from CBS News shows those Pittsburgh officers, just minutes after they were hit with debris, in the stands helping some of the injured, even carrying one to safety.[14]

Sources tell (WPXI) Chief Investigator Rick Earle the officers were just feet away from Trump when shots rang out. The four officers suffered minor injuries from flying debris caused by the bullets. Sources say the officers were hit with either plastic or metal fragments when the bullets struck objects nearby.[15]

soibangla (talk) 05:06, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

The same FBI director who answered "Not at this time, but again the investigation is ongoing" regarding accomplices is enough to doubt all of our RSs?

Additionally, we understand that there were people who were hit with shrapnel. The discussion is on Trump, not on them. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:21, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

if four officers just feet away from Trump where sprayed with debris, a reasonable person might conclude the first line of investigation would be whether Trump was also hit by debris, especially since there remains absolutely no evidence he was hit by a bullet soibangla (talk) 05:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that the injured officers were at a significantly lower level and that Trump's podium was elevated. Is that incorrect? If the teleprompters were not hit, is there evidence from reliable sources that the podium or any other structure near Trump was hit? But anyway, Soibangla, please provide a link to a reliable source that calls the bullet graze theory "dubious" or any synonym of dubious. Thanks. Cullen328 (talk) 05:51, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I have not seen the injured officers were at a significantly lower level. Do you have a source? I don't, because I don't see any source following up on the WPXI story, if only to refute it. I have been skeptical of what reliable sources have reported here, that he was hit by a bullet despite the total lack of evidence to support it, so I'm not inclined to expect they would now tell us their reporting is was dubious. we, as editors, need to say it's dubious, despite our insistence to rely on what reliable sources say, when evidence has arisen to call it into question. soibangla (talk) 06:00, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Soibangla, my personal preliminary assessment about the position of those officers is something that I am mentioning here on the talk page and is based on looking at many photos, videos and digital recreations of the attempted assassination. They show many views from a lower level looking up towards Trump where only the blue sky is visible behind Trump, and other views taken from higher up (podium level) where the people in the bleachers immediatly behind Trump are visible. Basically a level view towards the podium. If those officers were at the same level as Trump, they would have partially blocked the standard video camera shots, and would have been readily visible in the main video. But they weren't, which leads me to conclude that they were at a lower level, at or near ground level as opposed to the elevated podium level. The digital recreations that I have seen were by the New York Times and the Washington Post. To be crystal clear, I do not propose to add my personal thoughts or assessments to the article in any way. My comments are to provoke careful thought and I am completely open to new evidence. The core point to me is the presence of the word "dubious" in the lead. Christopher Ray did not call the bullet graze explanation "dubious". He simply indicated that there were two plausible explanations, and I agree with him. Plausible is not a synonym for "dubious". To call the bullet graze theory "dubious" in Wikipedia's voice in the lead of the article seems to be original research and synthesis unless actual reliable sources (not individual Wikipedia editors) call it "dubious" or some close synonym of that word. So which reliable sources (not you or other Wikipedia editors) call the bullet graze explanation "dubious"? Maybe such a reliable source exists but I have not seen it yet. Since you support keeping the "dubious" tag, you should be able to furnish the reliable source or sources. Cullen328 (talk) 07:44, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

can dubious be changed to disputable?

as I suggested before, I have long been skeptical of the press rushing to a conclusion en masse in herd fashion despite totally lacking evidence to support their conclusion, and I mean totally, and I suspect they might be reluctant to acknowledge they got it wrong, they might not be in any rush to admit it, hence the lack of reliable sources reporting it. quite the conundrum for us to have relied on multiple reliable sources for a conclusion, which was later called into dispute by the FBI that up to now had not said a word about it, only for us to lack reliable sources that acknowledge this. maybe we'll see more later today. soibangla (talk) 08:12, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@Soibangla your persistence here is concerning. There is no new evidence, just a single person whose voice does not carry enough weight to include introducing such claims to the lead. Please WP:DROPTHESTICK. Kcmastrpc (talk) 07:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Kcmastrpc: just a single person who runs the FBI and has access to investigative information no one else outside the FBI does

please do not venture into casting aspersions upon me soibangla (talk) 08:16, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Too late, take it to ANI if you have an issue with it. I’ll be happy to defend my observations and evidence of WP:BLUDGEON there.

FBI hasn’t presented any evidence, only unsupported conjecture. We should be reminded this is the same FBI who said there was Russian collusion and the Hunter laptop was Russian disinformation. There was an RfC about this, nothing has changed, no new evidence, just an unsubstantiated claim by an organization who hasn’t been honest in the past. My recommendation would be to open an RfC about it if you feel that this individuals statement is WP:DUE for such a change. Several editors have already weighed in and it seems theres consensus to keep the status quo. Kcmastrpc (talk) 08:24, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I knew someone would bring up Crossfire Hurricane. I just knew it. haha soibangla (talk) 08:27, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

What you've been saying is false, here is the exact quote from Wray:

"As I sit here right now, I don't know the answer to that. I believe we [the FBI] know the answer to that, I just don't have it in front of me."

https://www.c-span.org/video/?537151-2/fbi-director-testifies-oversight-house-judiciary-committee-part-3

Timestamp: 01:00:56

So the FBI director says that the FBI knows the answer as to whether Trump was hit by the bullet, but Wray himself just doesn't know because he didn't come prepared for the hearing.

He may have access to the investigative information, but he's clearly too lazy to actually read it.

The FBI has already accounted for all shots fired (according to Wray), but have not released their findings. The original sources, photographs, and medical examiner say that Trump was shot in the right ear.

Wray did not cast doubt on whether Trump was hit with a bullet, he's literally ignorant and does not know, despite having that information. He fully admitted this in the verbatim quote above. MightyLebowski (talk) 11:37, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Kcmastrpc: the matter is under active discussion, which is likely to continue later today. please refrain from edit warring soibangla (talk) 08:25, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

per WP:ONUS the disputed change stays out until there is consensus. i’ll caution the same warning re: edit warring to you as well. Kcmastrpc (talk) 08:33, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

nothing has changed indeed there has

I did not place the tag and I have not and will not edit war, and there is no reason to suggest I might, and I am most certainly not bludgeoning. the tag was placed in the evening ET and I'm sure this discussion will expand later today. incidentally, Wray is not Comey, the DOJ IG found Crossfire was properly predicated and the FBI never said the laptop was Russian disinfo, but I will digress no further soibangla (talk) 08:50, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Soibangla, for Pete's sake, why the the heck are you bothering to mention Comey, Crossfire and Hunter's laptop? Why the heck? Those things have literally nothing to do with this article, except that John Muir once observed that everything in the universe is hitched to everything else, which is both charming and a tautology. So, let me return to the critical importance of reliable sources. Whether or not you first added the "dubious" tag, you have defended it repeatedly. So, where are the reliable sources that say it is "dubious"? All I want is to see the reliable sources. Maybe a week from now, with additional coverage in reliable sources, we will all conclude that a flying fragment of wood or plastic or metal wounded Trump's ear. Maybe reliable sources will conclude that he squirted a ketchup packet or a WWE blood capsule on his ear. We will see. But here on Wikipefia, we require a reliable source to call anything under the sun "dubious". Cullen328 (talk) 09:10, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Cullen328: why the the heck are you bothering to mention Comey, Crossfire and Hunter's laptop?

um, because Kcmastrpc mentioned these things to suggest that Wray cannot be trusted. did you miss that?

I recommend you ping the editor who placed the tag. I am out of this for now. soibangla (talk) 09:16, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

one last thing

Cullen328: Maybe reliable sources will conclude that he squirted a ketchup packet or a WWE blood capsule on his ear

might suggest to a reasonable person that you are suggesting I am engaged in conspiracy theorizing. please do not go that way. soibangla (talk) 09:22, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Soibangla, I have repeatedly asked you to furnish a reliable source that calls the bullet graze explanation "dubious" and you have thusfar failed to do so. Chris Ray did not call it dubious. He said there were two possible explanations. No reliable sources that I have been able to find call it "dubious". As always, you are free to furnish reliable sources that call it "dubious". Until then, it appears to be your own original research, which simply does not belong in the Wikipedia mainspace. So please do not restore it without that all-important reliable source. Cullen328 (talk) 08:45, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

at this point I recommend you continue this discussion with the editor who placed the tag. I am not engaged in OR, I am engaged in discussion on this Talk page that others are free to take or leave, and I have not and will not edit war, and there is no cause to suggest I might. soibangla (talk) 08:57, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Soibangla, I have been engaging in discussion with the editor who has repeatedly defended the "dubious" tag, which is you. But let's put it to rest.

On the other matter, do not take troll bait. I am ready to move on at this point and get some sleep. Perhaps other editors will chime in with brilliant new observations. Cullen328 (talk) 09:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Cullen328 you opened this thread without pinging the editor who placed the tag to solicit their reasoning. I certainly would have.

I AGF in other editors. are you saying another editor I have engaged is a troll? if so, should that editor be admonished? soibangla (talk) 09:49, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Soibangla, when I question content in an article on its talk page, I do not believe that I am obligated to search the article history to figure out who first added the problematic content. Is there any policy or guideline that requires that type of deep search? As for the trolling matter, I lack the time or motivation this late at night in California where I live to investigate the other editor, but the one thing that is clear is that they induced you to go off topic, which looks like mild trolling at least to me. Now I need to turn off my phone for about seven or eight hours. Cullen328 (talk) 10:09, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• I don't know whether Trump was actually grazed by a bullet or shrapnel. He was certainly "shot at" and saying "was shot at" would end this whole subsection. However, it is clear this article should say that the crowd thought he was dead and was in great sorrow, as this is what President Trump has said. The failure to report that the crowd thought he was dead is appalling.Milowent • ^hasspoken 19:51, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

  I agree that "shot at" is clear and reliably sourced. I suggested above that we could combine Astropulse's suggested "bullet or shrapnel" and Master106's suggested "shot at" wording to say "Trump was shot at and sustained a graze wound from a bullet or shrapnel" for the lead section. That is supported by reliable sources, including the FBI director in charge of the investigation testifying before the House Judiciary Committee and quoted in The Washington Post.[16] And I think I see about three editors who agreed with that, and none that expressly disagreed, but I may have missed some comments. There are several other reliable sources on this, such as The Guardian's "FBI director questions whether Trump was hit by bullet or shrapnel in shooting"[17] and Time's "What We Do and Don’t Know About Trump’s Ear Wound"[18] as well as NBC News "Republicans rip FBI director's testimony that Trump might not have been hit by a bullet."[19] I also just found an article from CNN last week "Dr. Sanjay Gupta: There are still key questions about Trump’s injuries after attempted assassination"[20] This article is currenlty failing WP:NPOV which requires that we are "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." At this point, we are not representing significant views on this. Elspea756 (talk) 21:06, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

  Gupta suggests Trump could have been grazed by the bullet and shrapnel, "It’s not even clear that he was struck by a primary projectile from the rifle, a secondary projectile or a combination of both." 2600:4040:2256:BB00:90A3:E42C:F5E5:C98F (talk) 22:14, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, exactly, the reliable CNN source written last week by Dr. Sanjay Gupta says that it is "not even clear" what caused the injury, whether a "primary projectile" (a bullet) or a "secondary projectile" (like debris or shrapnel) or possibly a "combination of both." The current version of the article does not represent this view, expressed by Dr. Gupta and similarly by FBI Director Wray. WP:NPOV requires "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." So, we could write "Trump was shot at and sustained a graze wound from a bullet and/or shrapnel" in the lead section. Elspea756 (talk) 23:57, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

  I support wording like ""Trump was shot at and sustained a graze wound from either a bullet or shrapnel". Cullen328 (talk) 02:23, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for expressing your support for this change. This also reliably sourced to this New York Times article[21] that says the FBI is trying "to determine whether a would-be assassin’s bullet — or potential debris — grazed former President Donald Trump’s head, bloodying his right ear ..." Elspea756 (talk) 04:02, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

  haha soibangla (talk) 04:26, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

GunTubers testing online conspiracy theories about the assassination attempt

I believe there should be a section of this Wikipedia dedicated to guntuber channels testing and disproving online conspiracy theories on how the event was staged, ranging from the conspiracy that an AR15 round would make your head explode to the events being staged in general (i.e. Thomas Matthew Crooks only targeted Trump’s ear without killing or injuring anyone else), and including graphs of the incident showing how it would’ve been impossible for it to be staged. 2601:80:CC01:97D0:3C57:6AF3:EB5D:FDCB (talk) 15:01, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I've watched some of these, and while they're certainly both educational and entertaining, they're also not a reliable source per WP:PRIMARY for inclusion without secondary WP:RS covering them. (and even then, see WP:YOUTUBE). Kcmastrpc (talk) 15:34, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Hard no. YouTube is not a reliable source for some very good reasons. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 15:38, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories

Claims that Biden's statements, or those of other Democrats, incited the attempt are opinions and categorically not conspiracy theories. The conspiracy is the claim that it was ordered or orchestrated by government officials. Please move these under a different subheading.

"Following the attack, some people criticized a statement Biden had made earlier in the month[14] during a conversation with other Democrats: "I have one job, and that's to beat Donald Trump... It's time to put Trump in a bullseye."[258] More than two dozen Republicans blamed the shooting on Biden,[259] including[238] Texas representative Keith Self, who argued that his language had incited violence;[260][182] Marjorie Taylor Greene, who said "Democrats wanted this to happen";[238] and" Amthisguy (talk) 21:09, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Marjorie Taylor Greene, who said "Democrats wanted this to happen" Sounds like a conspiracy. If you follow that link, the source links to an article labeling Greene's statement a conspiracy theory. There is zero evidence that anything anyone said had anything to do with this event. We still do not know the motivation, and anyone who claims they do is just posturing, and perhaps they will later be accused of begetting violence. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:36, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

The Independent article only calls them conspiracy theories in the headline, which doesn't count perwp:headlines

The body only uses the term in a quote and in reference to a conspiracy theorist who assaulted Pelosi's husband.

However, you're right on the MTG one. After reading the article I see that she was definitely tweeting a conspiracy theory.

We don't know the shooters motives entirely, but there's really no question that he didn't like Trump, and it's plausible, to say the least, that anti-Trump rhetoric had something to do with the reason he wanted to kill him. True or not, stating that, is categorically not a conspiracy theory. Public statements are not secret plots. At worst, many of the statements are just assumptions, or opinions Amthisguy (talk) 01:49, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

There is definitely a question as to the shooter's feelings about Trump, at least as a political figure. There has been reporting suggesting that the shooter researched other possible targets, including President Biden, Attorney General Merrick Garland, FBI Director Christopher Wray, and an unidentified member of the British royal family.

source: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/17/us/politics/secret-service-trump-shooting.html NME Frigate (talk) 02:56, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

If we’re going to talk conspiracy theories, at least acknowledge the ones that came out after the shooting happened, like the staged shooting one or the head exploding after being hit in the ear one. 2601:80:CC01:97D0:6DF0:F40C:78B9:1429 (talk) 01:27, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

There are many conspiracy theories listed in the wikipedia article I only quoted the paragraph that seem out of place Amthisguy (talk) 01:51, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know why that whole paragraph ended up in the "conspiracy theories" section and not the normal "reactions" section, since about 90% of it is just people getting mad about a gaffe, and seemingly not coming anywhere near positing that it was explicitly ordered by Joe Biden or whatever. jp×g🗯️ 23:17, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Conspiracy theory #7....It is claimed that former President Trump posted on Truth Social the following: It took my entire ear off. The whole ear. But I went to the doctor, and he said, and this is true, he said, you heal faster than anyone I've ever seen. Nobody is healthier than you. And the next day, my ear was growing back, and the doctor said, nobody regrows ears like that, and it's a really remarkable thing, regrowing an ear like that, most people can't do it. And I know that, because it's not me saying this, it's the doctor, its everybody saying, just, you're the best at regrowing ears. Is it possible that the Doctor is Ronnie Jackson? Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 03:25, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Here is PolitiFact debunking that tweet, unless I am misunderstanding the meaning of your reply. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:51, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I think article talk page are repositories for information on the article subject that didn't (and shouldn't) make it into the article. In the RW, the life of what I call "Conspiracy #7 will last for a while. It has now been debunked, as it should be. Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 10:58, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Drats, I had a slight vibe I was getting this wrong. --Super Goku V (talk) 19:18, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that opinions should be in the online section. As far as I remember certain editors moved sentences back and fourth based on trying to "group content" together, probably without realising the implication in doing so (ie labelling opinions and criticisms of Biden as conspiracy theories). I've otherwise removed the "Joe Biden sent the orders" quote from Collins in the online section, as is referenced in section below, and per source is a conspiracy theory (ie clearly a false claim as opposed to an opinion). [22] CNC (talk) 13:54, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Officially disputed that Trump was shot

The director of the FBI disputes that Trump was directly shot, saying he could have been hit by debris. Therefore, we can say he was injured but not say for certain that he was shot. I have made small edits accordingly, but one user has been reverting them. Source is here https://newrepublic.com/post/184244/fbi-director-testimony-trump-bullet-injury-shooting Newzild (talk) 05:02, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

This is discussed above in like 3 different sections and is disputed. Per WP:ONUS please self-revert as there is no consensus for this change. Kcmastrpc (talk) 05:39, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

i reverted it Astropulse (talk) 07:28, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Astropulse: so now we're saying he was shot by shrapnel? soibangla (talk) 07:36, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

a) its not clear if its bullet or shrapnel

b) if a bullet or shrapnel wounds someone, it is generally acceptable to say that the person was shot. The term “shot” implies that a projectile made contact with the person’s body, regardless of the severity of the wound. However, for clarity, we can specify that it was a graze if you want to emphasize the nature of the injury Astropulse (talk) 07:44, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

to say he was shot by shrapnel is quite strange

"Trump was shot at and wounded in his upper right ear by a bullet or shrapnel" is not soibangla (talk) 07:49, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

i dont know how that is wierd

Can you read

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/projectile

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/shot

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gunshot Astropulse (talk) 07:56, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

A) Trump was shot at and wounded in his upper right ear by a bullet or shrapnel.

• “Shot at” implies that someone fired a weapon in Trump’s direction, but it does not necessarily mean that he was directly hit by the initial shot. “Wounded” specifies that he was injured, and this injury could have been caused by either a bullet or shrapnel. The use of “shot at” and “wounded” separately emphasizes the sequence of events: first, an attempt was made to shoot him, and then he was injured.

B) Trump was shot and wounded in his upper right ear by a bullet or shrapnel.

• “Shot” directly indicates that Trump was hit by a bullet or shrapnel. “Wounded” reinforces the fact that the shot caused an injury. This phrasing implies a more direct and immediate cause-and-effect relationship: Trump was shot (hit), which resulted in a wound. Astropulse (talk) 08:01, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

“shot at” implies that someone fired a gun in Trump’s direction, and as a result of the gunfire, he was wounded by what? a bullet? shrapnel? debris? the FBI seeks to find out[23] soibangla (talk) 08:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Why should we even include that it may have been shrapnel when the FBI director admitted that he was ignorant on the issue when asked by Jim Jordan?

Conjecture by anyone, including the FBI director, is still conjecture. MightyLebowski (talk) 08:08, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

you are conducting original research, while others are citing reliable sources[24][25] soibangla (talk) 08:10, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I cited Wray's verbatim words, not original research. MightyLebowski (talk) 08:12, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

The quote from Wray is reported here:

https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-fbi-christopher-wray-bullet-assassantion-attempt-shrapnel-2024-7

Jordan followed up, "It's my understanding that the very first one was the one that hit the president. The very first shot. Or is that not accurate?"

"As I sit here right now, I don't know the answer to that. I believe we know the answer to that. I just don't have it in front of me," Wray responded.

...

Additionally, Diaczuk told BI that it's most likely that it was, in fact, a bullet that hit Trump's ear instead of shrapnel.

In order for a bullet to break up and cause a fragment, "it's got to hit something substantial to disrupt its integrity," Diaczuk explained.

"And from what I saw — clearly, I don't have as much information as people who have been to the scene looking at things — but from what I saw the day of and the day after, was that it was a clear line of sight between the sniper's nest and the podium," said Diaczuk. "And if that's the case, then there's nothing to cause the breakup of a bullet."

"I don't see any indication of an intervening object to cause the bullet to fragment," he said.

Like I said, conjecture shouldn't be included.

For example, if Wray were to say he doesn't know whether the shooting was staged or not, it's not something that should be included in the article i.e. "Trump was either the victim of an assassination attempt, or staged the entire thing." We wouldn't include such a conspiracy theory just because someone doesn't know the answer to a question.

I think if you are to include the shrapnel theory, then it should be somewhere else, and it should be clearly stated that Wray doesn't know either way, even though the FBI apparently does know, but hasn't released their findings yet (Source from above: "I believe we know the answer to that" - Wray). MightyLebowski (talk) 08:32, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

New York Times, Thursday

The F.B.I. is examining numerous metal fragments found near the stage at a campaign rally in Butler, Pa., to determine whether an assassin’s bullet — or potential debris — grazed former President Donald J. Trump’s head, bloodying his ear, according to the F.B.I. and a federal law enforcement official.[26]

soibangla (talk) 08:41, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

BI is reporting that the FBI already knows the answer, from Wray's direct quote. Are you saying that Wray is wrong? MightyLebowski (talk) 08:53, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I am saying you are conducting original research soibangla (talk) 09:00, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

BI reporting isn't original research, it's an original source. MightyLebowski (talk) 09:03, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

can someone else explain to this new editor? soibangla (talk) 09:27, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

i did not explain it clearly. i updated by previous comment Astropulse (talk) 08:15, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

it does not necessarily mean that he was directly hit by any shot, isn't that right?

Trump was shot and wounded in his upper right ear by a bullet or shrapnel but the FBI, the nation's premier investigative body in such matters, has not concluded this, isn't that right?[27]

how is one "shot" by shrapnel? soibangla (talk) 08:24, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

again..... you fail to understand the loose definition of the word shot

The term “shot” generally means that a projectile made contact with the person’s body. In this context, shrapnel can indeed act as a projectile. While it might be more common to associate “shot” with bullets, shrapnel also qualifies since it is a fragment from an exploded device that is propelled towards a target. Therefore, it is reasonable to describe someone as being “shot” by shrapnel if it struck them and caused a wound. Astropulse (talk) 08:32, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

does shrapnel emerge from a rifle barrel? no, a bullet does, then it strikes an object, disintegrates and ricochets, perhaps striking people

I submit that the change you made is not consistent with the provided NYT source, whereas "shot at" is soibangla (talk) 08:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

it's not that I fail to understand the loose definition of the word shot, it's that I don't accept your loose definition of the word shot soibangla (talk) 08:46, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I feel the need to assert that it really makes no sense to say "he was shot with shrapnel." Unless A: We're writing a novel and using colorful language, or B: The weapon used was specifically designed to shoot or produce shrapnel e.g. a blunderbuss or grenade launcher. As all evidence points to both A and B being false "shot by/with shrapnel" seems grossly inappropriate to me. I think injured or grazed by a thus far uncertain projectile is most appropriate until there is some actual unbiased and clear evidence of the nature of the injury/projectile. And no, Trump and his private doctor's assertions do not count for anything for the same reasons others want to object to FBI director Wray's statements. Largely Legible Layman (talk) 15:17, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I think injured or grazed by a thus far uncertain projectile is most appropriate...I think following the sources is most appropriate, and when the sources begin, by and large, to begin reporting that he was "grazed by a thus far uncertain projectile" we can then insert that into the article. Marcus Markup (talk) 17:00, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

And I think that in their haste to present a complete story RSs may have seen the co-incidence of gunfire plus blood and then jumped to the (admittedly reasonable) conclusion of "gunshot wound" without adequate evidence to say so with certainty. Largely Legible Layman (talk) 17:23, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Several people have been reported as injured by debris, there's no reason or evidence that Trump's injury could not also be from debris, there just isn't any certain evidence of what exactly Trump was hit by. Largely Legible Layman (talk) 17:30, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

The Director of the FBI also said under oath that Biden did not exhibit any signs of mental decline during his interactions with him. He is a demonstrated unreliable witness with skin in the game and anything he says must be qualified and quoted, and certainly not used as a basis for slapping a "disputed" tag after "Trump was shot". Marcus Markup (talk) 07:41, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

does Biden exhibit signs of mental decline 24/7/365? soibangla (talk) 07:52, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Wray is not a layman, but instead the chief spook of the FBI, an investigative agency, who claims he did not notice any decline in Biden's capacity. Either he is incompetent or a politician or a combination of the two... either way, his words cannot be used as anything but for quoting his words; certainly not for making the encyclopedia a laughing stock by going "Trump was shot [dubious, discususs]" in the lead of this article. Marcus Markup (talk) 08:00, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

does Biden exhibit signs of mental decline 24/7/365? soibangla (talk) 08:03, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

It's not accurate to say the FBI disputes that Trump was shot. This is what Wray said towards the end of the hearing:

Jim Jordan:

"It's my understanding that the very first one was the one that hit the president? The very first shot, or is that not accurate?"

Christopher Wray:

"As I sit here right now, I don't know the answer to that. I believe we [the FBI] know the answer to that, I just don't have it in front of me."

https://www.c-span.org/video/?537151-2/fbi-director-testifies-oversight-house-judiciary-committee-part-3

Timestamp: 01:01:08

Wray didn't say the FBI doesn't knows if Trump was shot, but rather that he just doesn't personally know. MightyLebowski (talk) 07:53, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I think you're reading something into the exchange that isn't there. Here's more of the exchange, so you can see the last part in context:

Jordan: Director, I guess I am not clear exactly where all, you said there were eight shell casings on the roof, so eight bullets were fired. We obviously know that Mr. Comperatore lost his life, two other, two other rally-goers were injured, seriously injured, and then the one that hit President Trump. Does that account for, were some of these individuals hit multiple times? Where did all eight bullets go, I guess is my question.

Wray: Uh, I don’t have that in front of me. I am happy to circle back and get that to you, assuming that we have that information. As I said, I think with respect to former president Trump, um, there is some question about whether or not it is a bullet or shrapnel that, you know, that hit his ear, so it's conceivable, as I sit here right now, I don’t know whether that bullet in addition to causing the grazing could have also landed somewhere else. But I believe we’ve accounted for all of the shots and the cartridges.

Jordan: It's my understanding that the very first one was the one that hit the president? Is that, the very first shot, or is that not accurate?

Wray: I don’t, as I sit here right now, I don't know the answer to that. I believe we know the answer to that, I just don't have it in front of me. [timestamp: 1:00:18–1:01:33]

He's saying that he doesn't know whether the injury was caused by the first bullet, but he believes the FBI does know. He's not saying that the FBI knows whether the injury was caused by the bullet versus shrapnel. FactOrOpinion (talk) 12:26, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

For want of an official FBI report or medical records, reporters are now investigating this issue themselves. A new analysis in The New York Times concludes that Donald Trump was indeed grazed by a bullet rather than shrapnel, although one of the experts they consulted feels that the bullet whose track is seen in the famous picture is probably too low to have struck the top of Trump's ear.

source: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/26/us/politics/trump-shooter-bullet-trajectory-ear.html NME Frigate (talk) 17:08, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Speaking about bullets vs. shrapnel, the "Other Victims" section currently reads as follows:

"U.S. representative Ronny Jackson stated that a bullet grazed his nephew's neck. Jackson stated that his nephew was bleeding and was treated by medical personnel at the scene."

Those are sourced to a Politico article that quotes Jackson. However, at 11:39 PM EDT on July 13, 2024, Jackson, who was not at the Butler rally, posted the following to X (formerly Twitter):

"My nephew was injured at the Trump rally in Butler, Pennsylvania. Thankfully his injury was not serious and he is doing well. My family was sitting in the front, near where the President is speaking. They heard shots ringing out -- my nephew then realized he had blood on his neck and something had grazed and cut his neck. He was treated by the providers in the medical tent."

source: https://x.com/RonnyJacksonTX/status/1812331180072562923

Should the sentences cited above be modified to change "Jackson stated that a bullet grazed his nephew's neck" to "Jackson stated that a bullet or something else grazed his nephew's neck" with links to both statements? NME Frigate (talk) 17:26, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

The FBI now has provided a statement (this is per Bret Baier of Fox News):

"What struck former President Trump in the ear was a bullet, whether whole or fragmented into smaller pieces, fired from the deceased subject's rifle."

So FBI Director Christopher Wray was correct to say Trump was struck by a "bullet or shrapnel". (If shrapnel is defined as "fragments of a bomb, shell, or other object thrown out by an explosion.")

source: https://x.com/BretBaier/status/1816937869132595335 NME Frigate (talk) 21:50, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Adding another source to the topic: [28] CBS reports that Dr Ronny Jackson says "the former president was hit by a bullet in hit right ear...There is absolutely no evidence that it was anything other than a bullet". Article also says "In a statement provided to CBS News Friday, the FBI's Office of Public Affairs said, "What struck former President Trump in the ear was a bullet, whether whole or fragmented into smaller pieces, fired from the deceased subject's rifle." " Hi! (talk) 23:10, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Ronny Jackson is no longer a licensed doctor and has never been a reliable source. O3000, Ret. (talk) 23:31, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Per my edit summary, I've restored this to longstanding consensus and what was decided in an RfC. This matter is clearly still disputed so either leave it alone, or open another RfC to seek a change in consensus. Kcmastrpc (talk) 11:47, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

While your revert can be justified by the previous RfC, we should note that it's not OK to remove newer RSs, appeared after the RfC was concluded.

With the new information appeared, the consensus should pay attention to it, not to remove it.

Would be better to at least move the text to the article body. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 11:55, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, these attributed testimonies could be summarized in the Investigation section. Based on the discussion above, some of the testimony seems cherry-picked so it seems prudent to ensure there is WP:BALANCE. Even with those in place I still strongly suggest editors open an RfC seeking consensus for the lead change; because it seems this is becoming a slow-moving edit war. (I don't want to get into WP:ASPERSIONS here, just want the article to be neutral and represent editor consensus.) Kcmastrpc (talk) 12:01, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Per edit summary, WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY is enough to remove this line from the lead, as it's not a summary of the body. I recommend editors include the information to the investigation section before proposing amending the lead per MOS:INTRO. Then the discussion around MOS:LEADREL and WP:DUE can take place, but until then, there is nothing to discuss/argue. CNC (talk) 12:01, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

How many threads do we need on this? Slatersteven (talk) 12:04, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Always at least one more than we already have. Kcmastrpc (talk) 12:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Crane

Really? No mention of the crane? Just after the shots, a rapid escape of gas or aerosol frame the pressurized cylinder (?), as the piston (?) falls several feet, lowering the large loudspeaker suspended from it. See https://www.youtube.com/live/rLLTmANI4rk?t=544s.

President Lethe (talk) 19:29, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I see the importance of that fact. Also, we need a source that discusses it, not just our own observations of it happening in the video. Ccrrccrr (talk) 19:41, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

The significance of it is where the bullets ended up. In my recollection, it has been discussed in television coverage by CNN and/or PBS in videos available at their YouTube channel(s). It's also an example of early confusion in reporting: if I remember right, the escaping gas first was described as coming from a tractor, and from many angles it may have seemed to come from the tractor that was in front of the crane.

President Lethe (talk) 20:39, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Why is he still described as the "presumptive nominee? He has already officially been nominated. https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/15/donald-trump-gop-presidential-nominee-00168345 172.97.170.52 (talk) 22:57, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

He was the presumptive nominee at the time, so I think it's relevant. Hi! (talk) 23:04, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

FBI officially confirmed Trump was shot

Per AP article. Hopefully this debate can be laid to rest. Slamforeman (talk) 00:09, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Some here were so sure of this fact, without even requiring reliable sources to confirm it, that I suspect they are all FBI/Secret Service personnel (or ignore WP:RS). I for one will wear my bulletproof tin foil nightcap, just in case. Polygnotus (talk) 02:32, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

That's very funny but please put the scary man above your comment so it doesn't look like I put him there. Slamforeman (talk) 02:41, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Without a tin foil hat to protect you you are already doomed. Polygnotus (talk) 11:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

It was crazy to question it in the first place, since basic analysis of the video shows that, based on the distance of the shooter, Trump's reaction time, and the time at which the camera picks up the sound of the first shot, three things must be true:

1. Trump was wounded and bled from the first bullet while still standing, as shown in high resolution NYT photos taken at 1/8,000th of a second shutter speed

2. There wouldn't have been enough time for shrapnel to travel from its impact point

3. The first bullet's impact point would have been way too far away for shrapnel to even land near Trump

Even a junior detective would know such basic facts, and easily be able to map a bullet's trajectory to fully confirm if Trump was in the line of fire.

I honestly think that the FBI should be considered an unreliable source at this point.

I saw people everywhere here fighting tooth and nail, using all of the mental gymnastics they could, to try and justify the conspiracy theory that Trump wasn't shot.

Prior to the FBI officially admitting it, I told people that Wray made an offhand comment to the effect of "I don't know", which isn't even up to Wikipedia's standard to change the article to say that Trump may not have been shot.

I think this really casts doubt on Wikipedia's reliability too. If this happened here, it must also be happening in thousands of other articles. No wonder people are just going to X or elsewhere to get their information, which of course is also filled with disinformation. MightyLebowski (talk) 03:23, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

It's not our job to give our own analysis or research. The above may all be very well true, but we wait for reliable sources to give their conclusions. FBI gave their conclusions yesterday. Harizotoh9 (talk) 03:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

What I mean is that reliable sources were already saying that Trump was shot, yet it was kind of ignored, and everyone seemed to hold an offhand "I don't know" from Wray as more reliable than tons of sources reporting him being shot in excruciating detail i.e. people here grasping at straws to say Trump wasn't shot, going against what most of the sources were saying. MightyLebowski (talk) 04:06, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is one of the only responsible arbiters of the ebb and flow of fluid information on a hot topic such as this. Comparing us to X or any of the other social media site is laughable. We are "soldiers" that will quibble over the smallest detail till we get it right. Of course there are moments when info is wrong. Like every article here, it depends on the moment in time when the reader visits the article. They may visit just at the moment when someone has added unverifiable BS and no one has corrected it. And....a minute later its gone! Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 04:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I didn't compare Wikipedia to X, I'm just saying that this level of ignoring obvious reported facts from WP:RS is a microcosm for people going to "alternative" sources for information. MightyLebowski (talk) 04:23, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

There are actual rules of evidence here, whereas most social media sites are just chaotic zoos (and often filled to the brim with bots). Harizotoh9 (talk) 04:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@MightyLebowski: If anything is "crazy", it is using original research on Wikipedia instead of following WP:RS. If there is still an ongoing investigation by the FBI/USSS because they aren't sure Wikipedia can't just pretend we know more than the FBI/USSS. "I honestly think that the FBI should be considered an unreliable source at this point." on Wikipedia you are the unreliable source (just like every other Wikipedian). Polygnotus (talk) 07:11, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

The question is, does a pending FBI investigation supercede reporting from reliable sources or does Wikipedia hold off reporting until the FBI produces their final report? Numerous reliable sources reported that Trump was shot over several weeks. However, once the head of the FBI states he isn't sure what the FBI knows, all the previous reliable sources are immediately in doubt? 96.231.246.62 (talk) 10:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Previous reliable sources are in doubt but don't need to be discarded. Based on Wray's testimony, any reasonable editor would doubt the contents of this article, at that time. Not change it...yet. The FBI has priority over the crime scene and all available information. They don't deal with conjecture. So any reasonable editor should go to questioning themselves and others. "What's Up?", "Did we mis-inform the reader?", "Is our OR wrong and mis-leading?" We do the best with what we dig up. We are creating a historical account for the ages. We need to be accurate. Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 11:43, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Even if the FBI claims they don't know due to an ongoing investigation (that's not even what Wray said), if WP:RS mass report something, it's not conjecture. MightyLebowski (talk) 14:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Wrong. Conjecture is an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information. Like the 3 statements of truth you made at the beginning of this thread. All were conjecture. Not truth. Slow your mojo. Trump was shot. We all know he was shot and by who. Respect the process of collaborative editing. Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 14:36, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Conjecture is the lack of evidence for a claim. There was a plethora of evidence that Trump was shot before the FBI released their statement. Don't rewrite history. MightyLebowski (talk) 04:32, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, if the most reliable source says that they do not know, then far less reliable sources who claim to know are not to be trusted. The newspapers do not have access to the same resources the FBI and USSS have. Polygnotus (talk) 12:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Hard disagree, tons of reliable sources said Trump was shot and had a hole in his ear. During the hearing, Wray said:

"As I sit here right now, I don't know the answer to that [whether Trump was shot]. I believe we [the FBI] know the answer to that, I just don't have it in front of me."

People here completely ignored what Wray actually said, put everything that WP:RS reported en masse into a dumpster, then "Wikipedians" spun the actual reporting into "the FBI doesn't know if Trump was shot", even though that's not what Wray said, all because of obvious confirmation bias. MightyLebowski (talk) 14:20, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect, reliable sources (correctly) reported that the FBI was still investigating what it was that hit Trump. For example: The bureau is assessing what caused the former president’s wound during an assassination attempt. The question has turned political. The F.B.I. is examining numerous metal fragments found near the stage at a campaign rally in Butler, Pa., to determine whether an assassin’s bullet — or potential debris — grazed former President Donald J. Trump’s head, bloodying his ear, according to the F.B.I. and a federal law enforcement official. -- NYT Also you seem to forget that Wray said: there’s some question about whether or not it’s a bullet or shrapnel that, you know, hit his ear. NBC Polygnotus (talk) 14:37, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

There was no question Trump was shot, it was only the exact details of how the bullet actually hit him that were in question. The FBI later clarified this because people were misusing Wray's words (like you're doing now).

Your quote from Wray was earlier in the hearing, towards the end he clarified with the quote I cited above i.e. it was his latest, more relevant comment on the matter, which is that the FBI knows what happened to Trump, but he just didn't know during the hearing because "the documents weren't in front of him".

Regardless, the plethora of WP:RS reporting Trump being shot would not be undone by reporting on a pending FBI investigation into the matter, meaning it should've been "Trump was shot, but the FBI is still looking into it". MightyLebowski (talk) 16:05, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@MightyLebowski: If you are just going to ignore the evidence that shows that you are wrong then we are done here. A far more reliable source saying "we do not know yet" overrules less reliable sources saying "we know". And reliable sources like the NYT also reported that the FBI was still trying to determine whether an assassin’s bullet — or potential debris — grazed former President Donald J. Trump’s head. Polygnotus (talk) 16:14, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Wray stated the FBI knew if Trump was shot in the hearing, full stop, direct quote.

You're saying Wray, and those who reported on his statement, are unreliable/less reliable sources compared to an anonymous FBI official from the NYT? Lol.

If you're going to ignore what the FBI director said, along with hundreds of reliable sources saying that Trump was shot, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. MightyLebowski (talk) 02:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

BBC, 30 July: FBI confirms Trump was hit with a bullet Uwappa (talk) 18:22, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

How is the fact that Trump was actually shot still being obfuscated?

This has got to stop. I am extremely disappointed by the offensively partisan conduct of a handful of very prolific editors, who I won't name but I don't have to. It was widely reported in RS that Trump was hit by a bullet, or at the very least that it substantially appeared that way. The NYT published an article where they had an FBI forensic specialist analyze the hi-res photo snapped by their photographer the day before of the "projectile" whizzing past Trump's ear and he concluded that it certainly seemed like a bullet and he didn't know what else it could be. The contrary claim, that we just don't know, is the fringe claim. We're pretty darn certain it was a bullet. The FBI just confirmed it was. Whoever is saying we "don't have evidence" is wrong. This has been a repeated problem on extended protection articles where long-time editors have all the control. Sysiphis (talk) 05:22, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I have been occasionally watching in case administrative action was needed. I know this topic is all over the above talk but please give examples of text to show what you mean. I think very recent edits have resolved the issue: "Trump was shot and wounded" is currently in the lead. I assume that is what you mean? Would anyone wanting to water that down please respond in this section with proposed text, reason, and source. Johnuniq (talk) 05:43, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

No disagreement here, but to correct one thing: the Doug Mills photo capturing a bullet is surely of the second shot, and almost certainly not the one that hit Trump's ear—in the bullet photo and immediately after it, his hand is already reaching up to his ear, his face grimaced, while in the video his hand is still on the podium when the first shot rings out. As a forensics expert told the NYT, "He flinches, and his right hand already starts reaching for his right ear during that time between the first audible shot and the second audible shot." AbsoluteWissen (talk) 07:33, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

@Sysiphis: Au contraire mon frère: If the FBI says "we don't know", and a newspaper hires someone who does an independent investigation and says "I think it was this", it makes no sense to pretend that the newspaper (or the dude hired by the newspaper) is the definitive arbiter of truth. The Secret Service and FBI have a lot more resources to investigate stuff like this. So until the USSS/FBI releases a statement saying they figured it out (as they have now) we have to follow WP:RS and not pretend like we already know something that is still under investigation by the FBI/USSS. Malachy Browne's opinion is just that, and if the FBI/USSS would disagree with Malachy we would have to follow WP:RS and the FBI/USSS would be considered "correct" because it is a far more reliable source (perhaps his opinion would be notable as someone who disagreed or made an incorrect guess). You should be disappointed by those who refuse to follow WP:RS. Polygnotus (talk) 11:57, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

The FBI's statement doesn't say that "they figured it out". Rather, as this article correctly notes, the FBI's statement is that Donald Trump was struck by either a whole bullet or a fragment of a bullet, i.e., as the FBI's director said a few days earlier, by "shrapnel". Presumably there will eventually be a report from the FBI that gives their final assessment, but even then, it's possible they won't have come to a firm conclusion as to whether what struck Trump first was a whole or fragmented bullet (and if the latter, what caused it to fragment). NME Frigate (talk) 20:48, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

• Folks are always in such a hurry. Fortunately, the FBI takes its time as opposed to blurting out an answer, even when pressured (and attacked) by Congress. It's better to be correct than quick. Doubly true for an encyclopedia. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:19, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

About the words "the Doug Mills photo capturing a bullet is surely of the second shot, and almost certainly not the one that hit Trump's ear—in the bullet photo and immediately after it, his hand is already reaching up to his ear, his face grimaced, while in the video his hand is still on the podium when the first shot rings out": There's no need for "almost". Look at how many degrees of arc across the view captured by that photo the bullet traversed in 1/8,000 second, and consider how many inches that suggests the bullet traveled in that period, and consider that Donald Trump had already raised his hand some inches from the lectern (not podium) in this photo, and ask yourself whether he could move his hand anywhere near that distance in so little time. The word "almost" requires us to consider it possible that a bullet that left the muzzle at, say, more than 3,000 feet per second and had traveled only about 400 feet, and then only grazed his ear, could (A) somehow then move only, say, one to two feet past Donald Trump's head in the time it took him to raise his arm from the lectern, and then (B) speed up again to make a streak covering so many degrees of arc in 1/8,000 second. Consider also that the bullet makes such a long streak during that 1/8,000-second exposure while his hand, which he was moving fast, appears frozen during such a short exposure. If we guess that the bullet's streak in the photo traverses six inches (and we ignore the fact that the bullet has length), then it means the speed of the bullet in that instant is 4,000 feet per second (after about 400 feet of deceleration); if it traverses six inches in that 1/8,000-second exposure and we even grant no deceleration up to that point, then just 1/100 second earlier it was 40 feet closer to the gun than it was at the time of the photo. Even when we account for the fact that not every part of the photo was captured at the same instant, that parts of it were captured tiny fractions of a second earlier than other parts, it is impossible for the bullet in the photo to be the one that caused him to raise his hand to his ear. The bullet that hit his ear didn't, after grazing his ear, then hover in mid air and wait for Doug Mills to get his camera ready while Donald Trump started raising his hand, and then accelerate so it could make a streak that long across a 1/8,000-second photo. President Lethe (talk) 00:55, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

July 27th, the FBI released a statement saying: "“What struck former President Trump in the ear was a bullet, whether whole or fragmented into smaller pieces, fired from the deceased subject’s rifle," and this was then subsequently widely reported in the media. I added the NBC piece on it. Harizotoh9 (talk) 02:18, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

We know, see the section above. Polygnotus (talk) 06:54, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, "grazed" is the more accurate term, and its the wording that the recent NYT analysis uses, so we should probably go with that to clear up confusion. Harizotoh9 (talk) 07:15, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

The FBI report takes priority here. Does their report say grazed? 65.216.244.67 (talk) 21:26, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Is the "Misinformation and conspiracy theories" section necessary?

It seems all articles covering a current event now have a section like this, which is excessively long and meandering. "MSNBC reports that some right-wing users on X believe something false," "The Washington Post reports that some others believe that the entire event was staged by BlackRock," to put it bluntly ... who cares? Where is the encyclopedic value in this? Since I began paying closer attention to politics in 2010, every event that has been covered in the news has been questioned by someone ... yet for all events that occurred up until recently, their articles, rightly, make no mention of these theories as they had no long-lasting significance. It looks like a WP:RECENT issue, but I'll ask if any experienced editors are aware of a policy that requires at-length coverage every time publications decide to capitalize on this. Swinub (talk) 06:01, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

In the John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories case the conspiracy theories are certainly notable, with many books and movies about them. In other cases not so much. Media discovered that vox pop pieces are really cheap filler but since there is little to none encyclopedic value pruning would certainly be wise. Polygnotus (talk) 06:52, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

We have articles for Election denial movement in the United States and List of conspiracy theories promoted by Donald Trump, so it doesn't seem that theoretical recentism is an issue here. The implication is that these conspiracy theories will be forgotten, but I'd argue that's a WP:CRYSTALBALL theory in contradiction to the history of American politics. There was clearly significant coverage of the misinformation and conspiracy theories, so otherwise remains due for inclusion. Overall, given that RECENT is about giving undue weight to recent events as opposed to the overall historical context of an event, it's too early to tell as the event remains recent. Based on WP:SIZERULE at 5,500 words, there also isn't currently any justification for trimming or splitting content, but that time could soon come. CNC (talk) 13:33, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Dedication to left-wing conspiracy theories the same as the right-wing ones

This article only briefly explains the left-wing conspiracy theories that emerged immediately following the attempt on Trump’s life while the right-wing one gets two paragraphs and is explained in some detail, which isn’t exactly fair and doesn’t explain who these influencers are and what conspiracy theories they’re spreading. 2601:80:CC01:97D0:D84F:8EFC:8D15:3E4A (talk) 15:17, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

This is refreshing to hear, given there has already been concern that there was undue emphasis on left-wing conspiracy theories. Now there is undue emphasis on right-wing theories? We must be doing something right here. CNC (talk) 15:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree, if both sides thing we are wrong, we are being NPOV. Slatersteven (talk) 15:36, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

We also got at least one person saying that there is too much focus on all conspiracy theories (above). Polygnotus (talk) 16:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

They might have had a point. Slatersteven (talk) 16:28, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

At this point I think splitting the conspiracies into its own page may be a good idea, and the new page can have subsections of both left and right wing conspiracies. Unnamed anon (talk) 18:37, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I think that's too much. There are a lot of conspiracy theories and since they are all false I don't see the point in giving them much room in an encyclopedia, at all unless some are believed by a large segment of the population. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:00, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

This was proposed about a week ago and it was snow closed as oppose. The page has grown since then, but based on page size alone there isn't yet justification for splitting or trimming content. I'm otherwise not convinced that a split would be based on belief "by a large segment of the population", but simply based on the article becoming too big or due. CNC (talk) 19:16, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

We should look to trim WP:FRINGE content prior to splitting it. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:35, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 July 2024

Add:

The Trump campaign had originally planned to hold the rally at Pittsburgh-Butler Regional Airport, but it was already booked for July 13.

After this sentence:

U.S. Representative Mike Kelly said he had contacted the Trump campaign to recommend holding the rally in an area that could handle a larger crowd than the Butler Farm Show Grounds, and that their response was, "We appreciate your input but we've already made up our minds".[18]

https://triblive.com/local/regional/butler-county-airport-authority-denied-trump-campaign-request-because-of-conflicting-event

This is some important context about the Trump campaign searching for different venues. MightyLebowski (talk) 04:57, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Does it, is Mike Kelly contacted them, not the other way. Slatersteven (talk) 11:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't fully understand what you're saying, but the purpose of adding this is to convey the fact that the Trump campaign tried to book the airport venue, but couldn't, so they went with the alternative.

Did they, or did an outside party make the suggestion, that is my point, is Mike Kelly part of the campaign team, you suggested edit implies he is not. Slatersteven (talk) 11:44, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that Mike Kelly is part of the campaign. The Trump campaign tried to book a larger venue 1.5 months ago, but it didn't work out. By the time Mike Kelly contacted them, they had already settled on the Butler Farm Show Grounds. MightyLebowski (talk) 12:06, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

SO what relevance does this have? Slatersteven (talk) 12:15, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

The article gives Mike Kelly's recount that he wanted Trump to hold the event at another location to accommodate more people.

The RS I gave reports that the Trump campaign tried to hold the campaign event at another location to accommodate more people, but it was already booked.

The article makes it sound like Mike Kelly is criticizing the Trump campaign, as if they shouldn't have held the rally there.

This addition conveys the fact that the Trump campaign tried to hold the event at another location, but couldn't. It's totally relevant. MightyLebowski (talk) 12:23, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

UNless you added it, it was already mentioned. Slatersteven (talk) 12:26, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I didn't notice it, where is the mention? MightyLebowski (talk) 12:30, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Background, your edit almost word for word. Slatersteven (talk) 12:32, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I think there's some confusion here. That's the original sentence. I'm saying to add this sentence:

"The Trump campaign had originally planned to hold the rally at Pittsburgh-Butler Regional Airport, but it was already booked for July 13."

After the sentence that's already in "Background", which is:

"U.S. Representative Mike Kelly said he had contacted the Trump campaign to recommend holding the rally in an area that could handle a larger crowd than the Butler Farm Show Grounds, and that their response was, "We appreciate your input but we've already made up our minds".[18]"

So the final edit would be:

"U.S. Representative Mike Kelly said he had contacted the Trump campaign to recommend holding the rally in an area that could handle a larger crowd than the Butler Farm Show Grounds, and that their response was, "We appreciate your input but we've already made up our minds".[18] The Trump campaign had originally planned to hold the rally at Pittsburgh-Butler Regional Airport, but it was already booked for July 13." MightyLebowski (talk) 17:31, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Secret Service Failed to Communicate with Local SWAT Team

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/failure-communication-local-swat-team-details-account-trump/story?id=112340601

According to ABC, the Secret Service Counter Sniper Team did not communicate with the local SWAT team until the shooting happened, which is unheard of. Conceivably, this breakdown of communication is what led to the botched response that allowed Crooks to shoot 8 times before being taken out. MightyLebowski (talk) 11:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

And other sources say the police also saw him. SO we would nee RS saying "the botched response that allowed Crooks to shoot 8 times before being taken out., do you have one? Slatersteven (talk) 11:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

The RS go further than what I said, which is that the local SWAT team totally blame the assassination attempt on the lack of planning and communication with the Secret Service.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/local-swat-team-blames-trump-assassination-attempt-lack/story?id=112352324 MightyLebowski (talk) 11:31, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

And it seems the SS may not have been communicated with either, so it looks like (from this source) there was a general communication breakdown. Also this is the local SWATS version of events, that does not mean its true. So we might be able to say "according to...", but not state it as a fact. Slatersteven (talk) 11:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

It's the Secret Service's job to communicate and plan, since they control the event and are fully responsible for their VIP's safety.

But yes, it is the account of local SWAT, although the onus is always on the Secret Service to plan properly and coordinate with local law enforcement.

Here's a good excerpt from the article to summarize things:

"To the men and woman of Beaver County SWAT, what happened is clear: There was a lack of planning and communication that caused a catastrophic failure in the protection of Donald Trump. They said they saw the problem coming, and they tried to alert the people in charge and sound the alarm."

MightyLebowski (talk) 11:56, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

We need to wait until we know ow who did what, as this is just blame-shifting. Slatersteven (talk) 11:59, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

The RS says the USSS didn't communicate with SWAT and lacked planning. We should add that. There's no such thing as blame shifting here when the USSS is solely responsible for the event's security, according to the RS:

"The Secret Service, whose on-site team was supplemented as usual by local, county and state law-enforcement agencies, was ultimately responsible for security at the event."

We should add this too to make it clear that the USSS was ultimately responsible for securing the event. MightyLebowski (talk) 12:17, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Time for others to have I say, I have had mine. Slatersteven (talk) 12:24, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 July 2024 (2)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Attempted assassination of former President Donald Trump 47.221.13.251 (talk) 13:43, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Change "trumps physician"

The line about Ronny Johnson being Trumps former physician should be changed to former White House physician Ronny Johnson as he served under multiple presidents (trump and obama). If there is concern over potential bias of Johnson then i suggest adding something along the lines of "former WH physician and personal friend of Trump" 216.175.28.83 (talk) 16:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

The reason I wrote "former physician to Trump" is that I wanted to make it clear that he's not Trump's current physician. I think that changing it to "former White House physician" leaves the current relationship ambiguous, since a former White House physician could nonetheless be a current treating physician. There's also the aspect that Jackson's medical license has expired (see, e.g., https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/2023/09/07/im-an-er-doctor-rep-ronny-jackson-told-officers-at-rodeo-but-license-is-expired/). Perhaps we can come up with a solution that addresses both issues? Something along the lines of "former White House physician and former physician to Trump"? FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

"Trump's former White House physician." MightyLebowski (talk) 17:35, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

That works. I've changed it. FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 July 2024 (3)

Change:

Comperatore's firefighting uniform, with his name misspelled "Compertore",[138]

To:

Comperatore's firefighting uniform, with his name misspelled by the fire department as "Compertore",[138]

It needs to be made clear that Trump's campaign were not responsible for the misspelling, which is what the cited source says. MightyLebowski (talk) 18:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done - personally I'm not sure the misspelling needs to be mentioned at all, but if it is I agree this should be clarified. Jamedeus (talk) 19:20, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Timeline's tilde=y

What do the five or six dots beneath the tilde denote, if anything?

~3:50 p.m.

kencf0618 (talk) 12:38, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

If you hover over it a tooltip appears – 'approximately'. — Czello ^(music) 12:39, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Ah! Hadn't seen it before. Seems cluttered –might one use be sufficient? kencf0618 (talk) 21:54, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Trump bashes Facebook apologizes Google search censors

I added it but wikipedia is censored https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Attempted_assassination_of_Donald_Trump&diff=prev&oldid=1237306413 https://www.thecentersquare.com/issues/elections/article_68f63228-4e75-11ef-84b1-8b46cb2eee9b.html https://nypost.com/2024/07/29/business/facebook-admits-it-wrongly-censored-iconic-photo-of-bleeding-trump/ Baratiiman (talk) 15:25, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

So? What relevance does this have to the assassination? Slatersteven (talk) 15:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

We do not consider the New York Post to be a reliable source for information (see WP:NYPOST), and the Center Square article does not make the claim that Google actually started hiding anything. Wikipedia relies on content backed up by the actual statements of reliable sources. As such, this entry should not have been accepted for any page. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 15:39, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

As Slatersteven mentioned it's not really relevant to this article. It might be more approppriate in Trump raised-fist photographs but the way the diff is written might violate WP:NPOV and WP:EPSTYLE and it does not properly summarize the article from the center square which include responses by google and facebook. Yvan Part (talk) 16:14, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Move paragraph

After the shooting, the FBI uncovered a social media account "believed to be associated with the shooter" with about 700 comments from 2019-2020. The content of the posts were described as antisemitic, anti-immigrant, extreme, and espousing political violence. His Internet activity before the attack included searches related to the 2021 Oxford High School shooting and for other politicians and their events.

Should this paragraph in "Perpetrator" section be moved to the "investigation" section? Chuterix (talk) 17:37, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Attempted Assassination of Trump Wikipedia article misinformation

In the article Wikipedia says flying debris hit Donald Trump. This is misinformation on the part of Wikipedia. This article cannot be edited and is controlled by Wikipedia. When suggesting edits you are supposed to state credible sources. Ronny Jackson who is the doctor who has had as patients several Presidents of the United States has come out with a statement refuting the inaccuracy of the idea flying debris hit Trump. He said it, in fact, was a bullet that hit Trump's ear. Wikipedia needs to correct their entry or be regarded as an inaccurate source of information. Cut the nonsense (talk) 18:14, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Your claim that "In the article Wikipedia says flying debris hit Donald Trump" is false. The sole sentence that includes the word "debris" is "Four Pittsburgh Police officers who were feet away from Trump suffered minor injuries from flying debris when bullets struck objects nearby," and the article is clear that Trump was hit either by a bullet or a fragment of a bullet. You have not quoted/cited anything to substantiate that the article includes "misinformation." Ronny Jackson has not been Trump's doctor for several years and did not diagnose him. FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

They probably misread the sentence because it lacks clarity. It should be changed to:

Four Pittsburgh Police officers, who were feet away from Trump, suffered minor injuries from flying debris when bullets struck objects nearby.

The commas ensure that the reader immediately understands the information about the officers' proximity to Trump to be supplementary. MightyLebowski (talk) 18:59, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

“president” Trump

“president” should be capitalized when it’s preceding and referring to Trump or Biden or anyone that is or was the President of the United States of America. 76.229.151.107 (talk) 00:18, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

See MOS:JOBTITLE for Wikipedia's Manual of Style (MOS) and instructions on when the title "president" should and should not be capitalized when referring to the current or previous holder of the office of the President of the United States of America. General Ization ^Talk 00:31, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Secret Service Director mentions video

I watched the hearing in which the Secret Service Director mentions a "business video" that shows Crooks getting up the roof at 6:06 pm. Can someone confirm this and look for Reliable Sources that let us insert that in our timeline? I may find time to do that this week but I just wanted to put it out there as a to do. Forich (talk) 01:12, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Nevermind, found it. "Abbate recently discovered video footage from a local business that shows the shooter getting onto the roof of the building at 6:06 p.m., and he was spotted by local law enforcement at 6:08 p.m."Forich (talk) 03:08, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Great but the timeline is extremely incomplete in addition to what you point out here. Thousands of recordings were made of this event. The science of accoustic forensic can figure stuff out with far less than that. Somebody knows the exact time each bullet was fired and by whom. Shouldn’t that be in this chronology at a minimum? I’m not an editor here but isn’t this info available from a reliable source by now, two weeks after the fact? Roricka (talk) 03:32, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The current timeline has a contradiction:

• 5:51 A member of the Beaver County Emergency Services Unit tactical team sees Crooks on a roof, ...
• 6:06 Crooks gets up on the roof.

According to Row and Abbate the 5:51 is incorrect, the 6:06 is correct. See these two quotes from https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/acting-secret-service-director-testify-senate-details-trump/story?id=112384807

1. Rowe was pressed on reports that 20 minutes passed between the time Secret Service snipers first spotted the gunman on a rooftop and the time shots were fired at the former president. Rowe said it was the "first" he was hearing of that and to his knowledge it was "incorrect."
2. Abbate recently discovered video footage from a local business that shows the shooter getting onto the roof of the building at 6:06 p.m.

Uwappa (talk) 10:07, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Fragment from the hearing that supports the 6:06, mr Abbate, FBI, starting at 1:20:30 of the hearing video.

https://www.youtube.com/live/HvV7Ea7S5eE?feature=shared&t=4830

Quote:

"We have video that was recently found of the shooter walking in the distance from his car just before 6pm, about 5:56 I believe and based on everything we have we assess that he returned to his vehicle at that time, got the backpack, and then proceeded back to the area, to the AGR building and then he is observed of course on the roof just, you know, minutes later holding the backpack in front of him. In fact there is dash-cam footage from a police vehicle that shows him briefly traversing the roof with the backpack in front of him. And then it is just minutes after that that he is actually seen by the officer who I described with the rifle on the roof." Uwappa (talk) 14:53, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Is the actual video available online? It would help to see it to corroborate with precision the timestamps and avoid possible mispoken words.Forich (talk) 16:05, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The police dash-cam video is in the possession of the FBI. It was not shown during the hearing. It is probably not public yet.

It looks like this video would explain why Crooks was classified as suspicious, not a threat even when Trump was already on stage:

• At 5:56 when Crooks was seen getting his backpack from his car, he was just suspicious, not classified as a threat yet, as no weapon in view yet.
• At 6:03, when Trump went on stage, Crooks was not yet on the roof, still just suspicious, not yet classified as a threat.
• At 6:06, when Crooks went on the roof, it was with the backpack, no rifle in view yet. There is no mention of a police officer in the police car, watching the dash-cam images real time.
• At ~6:09, bystanders see Crooks on the roof with a rifle and alert officers.
• At ~6:10, the Butler Township police officer attempts to climb the roof, sees Crooks with a rifle.
• Shortly after, Crooks fires. According to Row, this is the first time Secret Service snipers see Crooks, see from

0:19:10

2:39:37 and

3:00:05 in hearing video.

Uwappa (talk) 16:57, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Moving Georgia’s PM Statements to Misinformation Section

Currently, we have the statements made by Georgian leaders underneath the international response section of the article. I think it is more appropriate to place it in the misinformation section of the article to highlight the fact that baseless conspiracy theories about the attempt aren't just topics on social media but are official positions taken by the leaders of nation states such as in the case of Irakli Kobakhidze.

If we are going to have the misinfo section, it needs to cover every conspiracy theory being pushed by prominent figures. PaulRKil (talk) 13:15, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Georgia’s PM? Why is what they thinks even relevant? Slatersteven (talk) 13:23, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The idea that the attempted assassination of a politician of this magnitude isn't some kind of conspiracy is the outlier.

It's far more likely that there were co-conspirators, just like law enforcement would automatically assume a bank heist involved others, or a prison break involved those on the inside.

It's not space aliens and unicorns when someone theorizes that such a massive security "failure" involving a world-class VIP safety agency could have far more to it than simple negligence. That being said, there has to be official sources to substantiate certain claims, but just because something lacks a mainstream media source doesn't automatically mean it's not factual, true, or within the realm of possibility.

It certainly isn't crazy to allege or entertain the idea of co-conspirators in a case like this. Therefore, we should't list every claim that has yet to be fully proven as a fact as "misinformation", since that itself borderlines on misinformation. MightyLebowski (talk) 03:04, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Include the famous image of Trump raising fist?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The photograph by Evan Vucci of Trump raising his fist in the air after being shot is the most famous image associated with the assassination attempt and will likely become the canonical image of this event as it is recorded in history.

Wouldn't it be appropriate to make the thumbnail image for this article? (See also: the iconic image of President Kennedy in the motorcade is the featured image for the wiki page regarding his assassination) 2603:6080:1002:E071:ED72:AB37:FD56:AF53 (talk) 21:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 August 2024

Change:

Four Pittsburgh Police officers who were feet away from Trump suffered minor injuries from flying debris when bullets struck objects nearby.[108]

To:

Four Pittsburgh Police officers, who were feet away from Trump, suffered minor injuries from flying debris when bullets struck objects nearby.[108]

Summary of changes:

Add commas for clarity. MightyLebowski (talk) 03:08, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Done. Thank you. Uwappa (talk) 05:15, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Butler County officer fired gunshot at Crooks

There is a newspiece at Washington Post uncovering many new facts about the 10 gunshots fired that day, and new confirmations that one of the shots from one butler county officer towards Crooks is allegedly relevant to the timeline. I do not know exactly what to include in the entry, please read and comment.Forich (talk) 04:51, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I have doubts about statements made by Butler County officials due to past concerns about their statements. That said, the following quote reassures me: FBI officials confirmed that a Butler County officer fired at the gunman and that the officer’s weapon has been taken to the FBI’s laboratory in Quantico, Va., for further analysis. As a glance, the only things that might need updating are the Shooting and Timeline sections. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:54, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, SO? it was a sniper that shot him, and that is the only shot at him that matters. Slatersteven (talk) 10:08, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Not sure that I agree. As I recall, the implication has been the county officer's shot forced Crooks to abandon his firing position and "hunker down" on the far slope of the roof, stopping the initial volley of AR-15 fire and buying time for the Secret Service snipers to prepare to engage him. When he "popped up" again over the roof ridge, a sniper immediately neutralized him. If that was the actual chain of events, the county officer's shot significantly changed the timeline and presumably the ultimate toll. Had he not done so, Crooks might have a) been able to target Trump yet again (perhaps more effectively), and b) killed or injured others in the vicinity during the time (in seconds) he was "distracted" from firing. General Ization ^Talk 23:44, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Very interesting, seems worthy of mention.Forich (talk) 04:01, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Deputy FBI Director Paul Abbate Completely Contradicts His Boss Christopher Wray on Trump Bullet Wound Ambiguity

The Deputy FBI Director testified before Congress and said there was never any question that Trump was hit by a bullet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk6qS9mXYM0

Thoughts on this? Was Wray lying the entire time when he said that there is still a question about whether it was shrapnel/debris, or a bullet that hit Trump?

I think that more scrutiny needs to be put on any statements released by the FBI before they're included here.

Additionally, people here were keen on not including certain other information because they wanted to "wait for the investigation", but then jumped on trying to include the shrapnel/debris conspiracy theory, even when such a claim boldly flies in the face of reality.

We should add Christopher Wray's false claim to the "Misinformation and conspiracy theories" section. e.g.

"Director of the FBI Christopher Wray initially claimed that Trump may not have been hit by a bullet, and that flying shrapnel/debris may have been the cause of his ear injury. However, a plethora of sources and experts believed that Trump was shot, and this was eventually confirmed in a statement released by the FBI. Furthermore, Deputy FBI Director Paul Abbate testified before Congress that there was "no doubt, and never has been" in the FBI's mind that Trump was shot with a bullet, contradicting Wray's earlier claim."

MightyLebowski (talk) 10:00, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

We already have umpteen threads on this. Slatersteven (talk) 10:09, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I didn't see any mention of these particular comments from Paul Abbate here. MightyLebowski (talk) 01:44, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

NO, but its still the same issues, was Trump shot. Slatersteven (talk) 09:56, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Wray did not say "debris," so why do you even introduce that? He said "bullet or shrapnel." The subsequent FBI statement said a bullet or bullet fragment. A bullet fragment is a form of shrapnel, so the FBI statement can be interpreted as clarifying what kind of shrapnel Wray was talking about. Sen. Tillis did not ask Abbate to distinguish between a bullet and a bullet fragment; he asked about ridiculous alternatives (namely: a space laser, a murder hornet, a sasquatch), so the exchange doesn't clarify the bullet vs. bullet fragment distinction. I strongly oppose adding Christopher Wray's "bullet or shrapnel" response to the "Misinformation and conspiracy theories" section. FactOrOpinion (talk) 11:25, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Debris can be used to refer to shrapnel in the context of a bullet fragment, they're interchangeable terms. Abbate said outright that a bullet (not bullet fragment) hit Trump.

"A bullet", not "bullet fragment". That's literally what Abbate said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk6qS9mXYM0&t=41s

Sen. Kennedy (not Sen. Tillis) only asked about "space lasers" after asking the initial serious question.

I think we should include it. Wray was clearly being duplicitous. There was never any question that Trump was hit by a bullet. MightyLebowski (talk) 12:19, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

It remains the case that Wray did not use the word "debris," and if you believe that "debris" and "shrapnel" are "interchangeable terms," there's even less reason to say "shrapnel/debris" since it "debris" would add nothing. My mistake about misidentifying Sen. Kennedy; I misinterpreted the name placards in front of them from the angle of the camera. I know what Abbate said. I also know what Wray said and what the FBI's statement said. You want to preference Abbate's statement over the other two. I do not. You want to interpret Abbate's statement as excluding a bullet fragment, when Kennedy never asked about that. I do not interpret it that way. Your personal opinion that "Wray was clearly being duplicitous" has no place on the page. The FBI released a statement, and unless/until they update it, it answers the question. FactOrOpinion (talk) 12:34, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Refusal to use drone by Secret Service per New York Times

I inserted this edit which Slatersteven reverted with the summary edit "maybe i am not seeing the full artigcel[sic] I I see nothing about drones not being used". I copied the relevant paragraphs in his talk page, to which he asked that I put the edit as discussion in this talk page.

Please discuss my addition The Secret Service did not accept offers to use a drone to support their surveillance at the Butler rally site, says New York Times with this source:

Also Slatersteven try to read the full article, maybe it is behind some paywall, either way others can confirm that the text is authentic.Forich (talk) 18:35, 1 August 2024 (UTC) Forich (talk) 18:35, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

The article in question is indeed paywalled, and the text in question is indeed hidden from the peasants. Here's an archive.is version: https://archive.is/20240801181507/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/01/us/politics/secret-service-technology-trump.html Marcus Markup (talk) 18:48, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I will now add, I also decided to look for other sources (one source should not be enough ti put it in our words, and I hope you are about to see why) [[29]] "Whistleblower Alleges Secret Service Rejected Requests to Use Drones to Secure Trump Rally" [[30]] "Secret Service refused police offer of drone before assassination attempt: Whistleblower". Its an allegation, not a fact. Slatersteven (talk) 09:56, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

At 1:09:45 of video of hearing 30 July

The Secret Service could not use their drone system at 3 p.m. due to cellular bandwidth problems. Uwappa (talk) 09:56, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Summing up: we have three sources: 1) New York Times, reliable source; 2) Washington Examiner, "No consensus, unclear, or additional considerations apply", and 3) the direct feed of the Senate Hearing on Youtube, which we can not use per the Youtube policy. I propose a phrasing of attribution to the New York Times, which is similarly phrased by The Guardian. Let's work it here in the talk page before inserting it in the article.Forich (talk) 16:34, 2 August 2024 (UTC)