Talk:Barack Obama: Difference between revisions

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Environmental Position

I don't see anything in this article talking about his pro liquified coal position. Also his wife's connection to Treehouse foods and Bay Valley Foods. I think every political candidate should have an environmental position section. Any ideas?

Please stop edit-warring

Continuous edit warring as the one exhibited over the last few days will ensure that either all edit-warring parties get blocked for a time, or the article protected.

Edit-warring never accomplishes anything beyond a block or page protection. COnsider this a friendly and last warning. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

All reverts on this article in the last few days have been to enforce the ban of Dereks1x (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) who returned as Local667forOb and Dexmar as evidenced by their editing patterns and an RFCU. All of this is documented further up the talk page[1] as well as the RFCU for Dereks1x. Laters.--Bobblehead ^(rants) 20:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I hope everyone know that Oprah is also a sock of Dereks1x (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). I never said anything because I thought it was incredibly obvious.--addition-- I just saw the coversation above and regardless of checkuser outcome, oprah is still an obvious sock of Dereks.Turtlescrubber 21:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC) Turtlescrubber 21:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I am cheking what the last series of reverts are about, and I am really puzzled. What is the deal? If there is such an intensity of reverts, there must be a way to resolve it. I do not see much of a difference if this text remains or not He has also been known as "Barack H. Obama, Jr."". What is the deal? I am protecting this page for a few days until we can get to the bottom of this. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Now that the article is protected for a few days, can involved editors summarize the dispute here? I read the diffs between the reverts and do not see any problems at first glance. If there are content disputes, I may be able to assist: Just respond below with a short comment summarizing your viewpoint regarding these edits, without any personal comments about other editors. If such comments are made, I will strike them out and not consider them in my response. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Despite comments in my talk page by User:Bobblehead, I stand by the page protection and my request for a summary of the dispute above. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no dispute, there is a tendentious editor that was banned and the reverts were to enforce that ban, nothing more, nothing less. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 03:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I beg to differ. There is a dispute which needs to be addressed. You would be better to leave ban enforcement to admins. Post any concerns at Wikipedia:Community_sanction_noticeboard. If there is a confirmed banned user via SP accounts, we block these when there is evidence. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:39, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Jossi needs to help out

I am shocked at the ill-treatment and incivility going on here. I saw how poorly another editor was treated which is why I looked at the edits and stepped in.

Other editors showing savage behavior

Without naming names, look here. Here's the proof. Jossi asked for discussion about content. We got none. Just name calling and accusations. In contrast, I explained my reasons for my edits.

If you ignore the checkuser and look at behavior, the savage behavior editors show worrisome signs. All of them just attack and don't explain why their reverts are good (except to yell "sock"). As jpgordon said, look at the behavior. The savage editors are behaving curiously exactly alike. Independent/unrelated editors would likely have different behavior characteristics and some would explain and explain differently.

As far as me not editing about Oprah. This is a lie. I did edit about Oprah but in another article.

Reasons for edits

My reasons have already been explained. Why waste my time having to re-explain when the others don't. For your benefit....

It is dishonest to tell the half story about Obama's police union endorsement when the real story is that his opponent was endorsed and there was significant dislike among the rank and file for Obama.

I like Oprah so I won't further explain why her endorsement and speculation to be vice-president is interesting.

there's more, but just look at the archives.

If the tactic is to chase away editors so that you can control the article then it's working. I have no desire to fight with unreasonable and incivil attackers. Oprahwasontv 02:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

You need to move on, Oprahwasontv. Consensus is against reverting back to a version that includes edits by the confirmed Dereks1x sock. If you want to include the edits, then you need to build consensus for their inclusion on the talk page before you add them. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 02:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Several editors have reverted you, Oprahwasontv. You need to accept this and move on. If you fight this, you'll just look like a sock. Bhwin 23:07, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

You have been reverted by several editors and the consensus is not on your side. Have you thought about just moving on?;)Turtlescrubber 04:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Content disputes

The 'Jr.' point has come up before: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_3#.27Jr..27_in_name No, the presidential candidate does not use that suffix. Yes, it would be incorrect if he (or anyone else) did. From Judith Martin, "Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior", 1982, Atheneum, New York, p. 31-33 (same point made on p.696): "...Is it true that now that Grandpa is gone, everyone moves up a notch?...Everyone does move up a notch. You and your husband are not Senior, but merely Mr. and Mrs. Curt Nicholson. Only a widow uses Senior, to distinguish herself from her daughter-in-law who, as the wife of the eldest lviing person of the name, does not use any suffix, as you and your husband should not now. Your son is now junior, and his son is now 3d." Flatterworld 15:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

What is so important about omitting or describing the "Jr.". If this is the whole dispute, I am stunned that it has escalated to banned users, sockpuppet accusations, etc. Much of a do about nothing, really. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

Jossi, unprotect this page.

You've protected an article based upon editors reverting the contributions of a sock-puppet wielding community-banned user. Go read WP:BAN, then kindly unprotect this page. I'd like to get back to editing here, thanks. Italiavivi 18:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:BAN describes reverting edits of banned users. It does not describes "reverting edits because I think that the editor is the banned user". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, siding with sockpuppets is bad policy. If you don't understand what is happening on the page then you probably shouldn't be the one "protecting" it. Turtlescrubber 19:40, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not siding with anyone. If there are allegations of sockpuppets of banned users, report them and if found to be true, I will be glad to perma-block these accounts. What is unacceptable is the editing behavior in this article in which the only arguments forwarded are "rv sockpuppet of banned user" or similar. The article will remain protected until the seemingly innocuous edits can be discussed civilly. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:43, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussed by whom? There is only one user trying to push a certain set of edits made by a previously banned user. If you would bother to look at the past history of the page and the puppeteer in question, you could easily come to the same conclusion that all of the editors on this page already have. I stand by my previous statement of, "If you don't understand what is happening on the page then you probably shouldn't be the one "protecting" it." Turtlescrubber 00:25, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

If anyone want to contest the protection, please make a request in WP:RFPP where you can get a second opinion about the need for protection until content disputes are resolved. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

• Y'know, Jossi, you're not the only one here. There was a nest of sockpuppetry (a Dereks1x specialty), they found it, I verified it, end of problem. Were I not loathe to overturn another admin without discussion, I would have done so already. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 00:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure, JP. Feel free to overturn if you see that necessary. Unprotected. My concern is about not looking at the edits made instead of just simply saying that these edits where made by suspected SPs. From what I see, these edits are much of a do about nothing, and if we can stabilize this article by looking at these edits, I am for it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

And if those SPs are verified, I will be more than happy to perma-ban them in the process. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:23, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

So you only listen to administrators. Guess the non-admins aren't worth your time. Much respect for that. Turtlescrubber 03:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

If a fellow admin challenges an my action, I listen. Now, my concern still stands: I have seen a lot of smoke for very little fire. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

It is most definitely a good thing that us lowly plebeians don't have any pull with an elite admin like yourself. Imagine if you had to listen when uppity non-admins challenged your actions. That would be dreadfully unnerving, mixing with the baser classes and all. Turtlescrubber 05:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you are missing my point: I was doing RC Patroll when I came across this article seeing multiple reversions of material that seemed innocuous. I asked one editor about the reasons for his reversions, which he politely replied to. I made an assessment that a high quality article such as this one, should not have to be in such a state of flux, and in which the most heard comment in talk is about SPs, allegations of SPs, and other miscellanea. Looking at the edits themselves, I saw that regardless of the past with a banned user, some of these issues could be resolved as they were not major, protected the article and asked editors to provide a summary of the dispute. Involved editors did not approve, so I replied with the suggestion to contest my protection at WP:RFPP, which they did not take. Then jpgordon, came and contested the protection and I obliged. I stand 100% by m y decision to protect, my assessment that editors involved can do much better than this in dealing with WP:DE, and by my decision to unprotect after challenged by a fellow admin. Happy editing≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I think I understand your point completely. I also understand that you believe yourself to be on a higher level than ordinary editors and only respect input from your fellow admins. I am not questioning the actions you took on this page except for how you ignored everybody's opinion until another admin came along. Think about it. Turtlescrubber 03:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought about it and I stand by my comments. I did not "ignore the opinions" of any one. I acted based on my understanding that required the action of protecting the article. I also invited you and others to contest my action at WP:RFPP, which you and others ignored. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey now, Turtlescrubber. None of that. The page is unlocked, that's the important thing. How or why it happened isn't overly important. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 03:32, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Turtlescrubber is absolutely right about Jossi's attitude. Jossi is being both arrogant and totally out of line. This "I'll only listen if someone else with sysop access challenges me" stance is rubbish, and sysops who take that line are bad for the project. Italiavivi 05:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

The only possible sock that remains unblocked is Oprahwasontv. Local667forOb's block log and Dexmar's block log. The only thing preventing Oprahwasontv from being banned is that the checkuser came back as unlikely. But it is odd that a user that claims to be a fan of Oprah's hasn't made a single edit to her article or pages related to her. Not to mention the oddity of a user that hasn't made an edit since July 4th (the same time Feddhicks (talk · contribs), another Dereks1x socks returned to activity) suddenly appears and reverts my removal of most of Local667forOb's edits within an hour and a half. It could be a phenomenal coincidence, but given Dereks1x's habit to use multiple socks at the same time... Coincidence is difficult to believe. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 02:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

And, of course, my "unlikely" is simply "unlikely as far as IP analysis goes" -- no behavioral analysis is involved at all. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 03:48, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

This is very true. Unfortunately checkuser results have achieved the status of manna from god lately. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 05:28, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

The fact is, Jossi, this has been a fairly stable article, except when the many sockpuppets of Dereks1x have descended upon it and made quirky nit-picky edits that numerous editors disagreed with, and then those accounts went about insisting on their edits in such a contentious manner that it became obvious they were sockpuppets, following the same pattern. Or when socks of Dereks1x took this to unmerited FA review, wasting our time and impeding the work of Wikipedia for no reason other than disruption. Or when they arrived out of the blue, like Oprahwasontv did, just to revert to the edits of another one or two of the socks who were blocked, claiming that he "liked" that version better. Go back a few days and you'll see that these edits were not supported by anyone other than the sock and his fellow socks. The editors here don't agree about everything to be sure, but we have worked together to create a featured article whose citations have been pointed to as gold standard, and whose text is comprehensive, neutral, and informative. If you look at the edit history and actually read what has gone on here on talk you'll see that almost all of the dissension was caused by a rolling group of disruptive socks of one banned user. According to WP:BAN -- an official policy -- it is entirely correct for editors to revert edits made by a sock in evasion of a ban -"RV edit of sockpuppet" is a completely legitimate reason for reverting, contrary to what you say above. It is not edit warring to do so. Frankly, I'd appreciate an apology for your accusation on my talk page, but I don't expect one - instead, you might consider what is being said on this page, as we have had more experience dealing with this disruptive editor than you may have had. Oprahwasontv is another sock, and he needs to be blocked - but you know, it's a lot of work to find the diffs and write the whole thing up - time I'd rather spend doing productive things - and I am tired of being jerked around by this guy. No one who edits this page has spoken up to say that this appears to be a legitimate editor, or that his edits were valid - and right now he's crawled back under the rock. I think what Bobblehead wrote just above spells out what this guy is up to, and it should suffice for a block. Maybe someone else has the energy to write it up more formally - I don't right now, but I'll write something in support if someone else will take the ball. Or we can wait for him to re-emerge. By the way - the page was semi-protected because of a large amount of IP vandalism - you might have left the semi-protection in place, when you removed your full protection. But we can wait and see if the IP vandals return - I know where my money is on that one. Tvoz |talk 05:53, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem in apologizing to you. If you spend any time in RC patroll, you will come across many different situations, some of which with long histories of disruption. In some cases, I am able to assist, and in some other cases I am not. In this case, I can see that my assessment and intervention was not appreciated, so be it. I just think that an article of the quality of this one, should not be disrupted in the way it is by one editor such as the banned editor and his alleged and confirmed SP, and there may be ways to encourage this person to let go than just continue escalating, reverting and perpetuating the situation. But that is just my opinion. Good luck. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Hope springs eternal, but unfortunately I think the intent of the banned user and his many socks is to disrupt, not to legitmately edit. Some of the more conciliatory among us have tried reasoning with him and offering often lengthy explanations of why a particular change is being reverted, but it hasn't made much difference. He's like the proverbial dog with a bone, and it's not clear what the motivation behind it is, other than disruption. But that's just my opinion. Tvoz |talk 21:54, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Obama redirect

There is a dispute over on Talk:Obama (disambiguation)/Talk:Obama about whether "Obama" should redirect to this page. More contributors to the discussion would be appreciated. —Lowellian (reply) 20:26, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I have create a move discussion and protected the Obama and Obama (disambiguation) pages from being moved during the discussion to prevent the move warring. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 22:40, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

You made the move then protected the outcome you openly desire. There's no "requested move" discussion to be had, the move has been made and protected. Italiavivi 00:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I did not make the move and then protect the outcome I openly desire. You are blatantly lying here. Just check the logs and the history. The current location of the article is not where I'd prefer it, but I wanted the moving to stop long enough to have a rational discussion without the article being moved from one title to another and back again. If you don't want to have a rational discussion, that's your choice, but your lying and constant assumption of bad faith on the part of others is not acceptable. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Your use of sysop tools in in collaboration with another editor who supports the same outcome as yourself is what's unacceptable here. No one need assume good faith of your actions given the discussion on your User_talk page during your and Neier's protection of the articles. Italiavivi 00:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

You are assuming collaboration where there is none. If you look at the timestamps on the various pages, you'll see that I protected both articles from being moved and started the discussion a while before that comment was placed on my page. Again, there was no collaboration here. Nothing was premeditated. I saw that Neier had moved the article again, so I protected both pages for 7 days to prevent further moves so a discussion could be held on what to do with the pages. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:28, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you saw Neier had moved the article again, so you protected it. Thank you. Italiavivi 00:34, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

If you're going to quote me, please don't take it out of context. The rest of the quote is, "...protected both pages for 7 days to prevent further moves so a discussion could be held on what to do with the pages." The rest of the sentence is necessary to get the full meaning instead of the slanted, partial, and incorrect meaning you are implying. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 01:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

There is now a straw poll on Talk:Obama/Talk:Obama (disambiguation). Please go there to vote. —Lowellian (reply) 07:46, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Protection

Back in January, I wrote this:

Presidential candidates ought to take sustained and preemptive measures to protect their security, but their Wikipedia articles should not.

Over half a year and many edits later, I still feel the same. What is the justification for the sustained and preemptive semi-protection that we have seen on this article for most of the last six months? Are we trying to deal with recent vandalism or just wanting to not deal with it all? Don't we have smarter, more consensus-oriented tools for screening unhelpful edits on widely watched articles like this one? Before the vandals return in force (yes, I agree they will, it changes nothing in my view) let's please try once more for a consensus strategy to keep this article open to edits from unregistered and recently registered editors most of the time. I hope this view finds some support here, or at least a more sustained effort to build consensus. Thanks for listening. --HailFire 09:09, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

When one is dealing with a persistent string of anons/redlines repeatedly changing his religion to "Islam," it ceases being about simple vandalism and starts being a WP:BLP matter. Italiavivi 13:14, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Italiavivi. As I see it, the problem with this article being left open for anon and new editors is that every time we try it we are hit with a barrage of often vicious racist vandalism that is damaging to the subject and gives Wikipedia a very bad image. It is true that there are many editors watching this page who are usually quick to revert, but as you've mentioned above elsewhere, HailFire, this has been one of the most frequently read pages on Wikipedia and there are likely people around the world looking at it constantly, day and night. Most people do not know about how the encyclopedia works, and those who have the misfortune of landing on the page just when one of the racist vandals has made an edit will get a distorted, unacceptable view of the subject with at best incorrect information and at worst libelous or hateful venom. This is an embarrassment to the project and to all of us who work hard here trying to keep the article accurate and fair. I am completely aware that registered editors often cause just as much damage, but by limiting editing to them, it seems to me that we at least reduce the problem. With much respect - I haven't seen anything to change my mind from what I said here either - I truly don't understand what you have in mind as a consensus strategy for dealing with this, but as ever am interested to hear what you have in mind. Right now it hasn't started up yet, so I'm all for waiting and seeing if somehow this time will be different. Tvoz |talk 22:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I laughed just seeing Tvoz write the words "I agree with Italiavivi," so I took a screenshot. Anyhow, I should clarify: I'm not advocating permanent semi-protection, I'm only defending the past semi-protections of this article. All protections followed lengthy strings of "Islam," "Hussein Osama," or "nigger" vandalism. Italiavivi 00:23, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protection is only a temporary measure. This, and many high profile articles in WP, can be semi-protected occasionally when there is a need. See WP:SEMI#Semi-protection. This article is watched by many, as well as being on the "watched articles" list on the RC patrol channel at #vandalism-en-wp ].≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, Italia, every once in a while. For the record - I'm not necessarily asking for permanent sprot here either, but I think that for the duration of this campaign it probably will be needed, and after that who knows. In the past we've found over and over again that it's needed here despite the many eyes watching it. Same thing seems to apply to both Clintons, Bush, and some other articles that have what appears to be indefinite, not temporary, semi protection. As I said, I'm not against waiting to see what happens this time, but I think we need to remember why we've had to request semi-protection so frequently in the past, and it's not garden variety "Hi Mom!" vandalism that is irritating but not harmful or a BLP concern. Tvoz |talk 01:53, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposal -- Next time semi-protection is needed to deal with recent vandalism, let's advise our helpful Admins to set an expiration counted in days, not weeks or months. --HailFire 19:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not see the need for sprotection at this point. The current level of vandalism is being easily dealt with by editors watching this page and by the CVU. If you feel that there is a need to protect, and disagree with my assessment, place a request at WP:RFPP were it will be assessed by those admins that are active in that board. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anyone asked for it to be semi protected at this time - we're discussing the future, I believe, based on past experience. I pointed out that it had been semiprotected when the last flurry of protect/unprotect took place and that sprot might have been retained then, but I further said a few times that I'm not against taking a wait-and-see approach. HailFire is talking theoretically about the future as well. Tvoz |talk 20:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

You are right. My misunderstanding. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Fyi. --HailFire 16:18, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Aside from thinking the sprot wasn't necessary, I don't have a comment. The edit war over the redirect was more disruptive than the vandalism that has hit the page since it was unlocked. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 16:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

HF, I'm not sure that your request to DarkFalls represents the overall consensus of the editors here - we've had the same tired argument lots of times without really reaching any conclusion. But I don't care - if it expires sooner we'll see when we need it again. Uninvolved neutral admins have repeatedly judged that the page needs sprot without being asked, I think because it's obvious. I wish I understood why this approach seems better to you, and why you don't mind having the vicious vandalism available for readers unfortunate enough to log in at those times. It does damage to the subject and to Wikipedia's image, is a gross waste of effort, and real changes have often been overlooked in the sea of vandalism that we've had to deal with. But it's not something I feel like fight ing about. Not while the Great Disambiguation War is going on, anyway... Tvoz |talk 18:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Obama

There is currently an ongoing discussion about whether Obama should be a disambig or should redirect to here. Interested editors should participate at Talk:Obama (disambiguation) Nil Einne 08:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)