Talk:Bette Davis: Difference between revisions

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Bette Davis and the Hollywood Canteen

A user has consistently removed cited information on this page regarding Bette Davis' involvement in the Hollywood Canteen claiming the sources as "unverifiable."

This is the information I've provided:

In 1942, Davis and John Garfield co-founded the Hollywood Canteen at 1451 Cahuenga Boulevard in Hollywood. The Canteen offered food, dancing and entertainment for servicemen and was staffed by members of the entertainment industry.

Serving as the President of the Canteen, Davis dictated the racial integration policy and ruled the dance floor should not be segregated after questions were raised if white soldiers could dance with black volunteers.

In 1983, Davis received the Distinguished Civilian Service Medal from the Department of Defense for her work with the Hollywood Canteen.

She appeared as herself in the film Hollywood Canteen (1944), which used the canteen as the setting for a fictional story. Warner Bros. donated 40% of proceeds from the film to both the Hollywood Canteen and the Stage Door Canteen in New York.

Citations:

Stern, Julia (2021). Bette Davis Black and White. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press. p. 8. ISBN 9780226813868.

Sikov, Ed (2008). Dark Victory: The Life of Bette Davis. Henry Holt and Company. pp. 210–211. ISBN 978-0-8050-8863-2.

Considine, Shaun (January 25, 2017). Bette & Joan: The Divine Feud (Ebook ed.). Graymalkin Media. ISBN 978-1-63168-107-3.

The American Film Institute Catalog of Motion Pictures Produced in the United States: Feature Films, 1941-1950. F4. University of California Press. 1999. p. 1071. ISBN 9780520215214.

Graham, Sheila (December 20, 1942). "Hollywood Canteen Joy To Many Lonely Lads: Started By Bette Davis and John Garfield and Enthusiastically Supported By All the Stars in the Movie Capital, It Is the Mecca For Every Soldier and Sailor Passing Through". The Hartford Courant. pp. A15. Retrieved August 5, 2023. [https://www.proquest.com/docview/559727344/D32333E1844B43A5PQ/4?accountid=3783)

Bette Davis Overrules Objection To Mixed Couples At Hollywood Canteen". The Pittsburgh Courier. January 16, 1943. p. 21. ([1]

"Davis Reelected Canteen Prexy". The Hollywood Reporter. February 9, 1945. p. 5. [2]

"Medal is given to Bette Davis". The Baltimore Sun. June 13, 1983. [3]

Not of the sources you cite are verifiable. I have tried to check all of them. Several are "dead links." The only true claim I can find is that Davis served as the appointed president of the Hollywood Canteen at one time. MonicaAng (talk) 17:00, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I found that the Hollywood Canteen was created by the Stage Door Canteen out of New York, not that Davis "co-founded" it. Likewise, your claim that Davis was responsible for racial integration isn't true. When I researched it, I found that was the policy of the Canteen itself and that Davis had nothing to do with that. You are making some bold claims, i.e. that Davis founded an entire organization, and I cannot find one verifiable source to support that claim, and the sources you cited do not say that. Plus the fact that your username "NLB2023" stands for "Nick Loves Bette 2023" makes it appear that you have a biased narrative. MonicaAng (talk) 17:04, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Just because you do not have access to ProQuest does not mean they are dead links. They are digitally archived Newspaper accounts housed in an academic database.

Please provide your research on the racial integration policy since you reference it and do not cite. My citation is from the recent academic work done by Julia Stern.

Yes, the Stage Door Canteen was founded first by the American Theater Wing - which provided the idea to John Garfield to open a similar spot on the West Coast. You claim that the Hollywood Canteen was created by the Stage Door Canteen - again, please provide your source for this.

As Sikov, Stern, Torrence and others note, and I have cited, - Garfield approached Davis and they worked together to set the Hollywood Canteen in motion. If the wording of "co-founding" is what is really nagging at you - I'd be happy to change the entry to reflect Garfield and Davis working to "establish" the Hollywood Canteen.

I am not biased toward anyone, and do not appreciate the immature accusation - I am equally frustrated at your erasure of John Garfield's legacy. Nlb2023 (talk) 17:37, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Additionally, a book you do clearly own because you cite it often and is available on Google Books: in "Bette & Joan: The Divine Feud" Considine writes:

"One day John Garfield came to her in the greenroom at Warner's. He had been thinking about the thousands of servicemen who were passing through Hollywood without seeing any movie stars and Bette instantly agreed something should be done about that. So the two found a building off Sunset Boulevard that looked like two New England barns thrown together. They recruited carpenters, designers, all of the guilds to donate their time. In three weeks the Hollywood Canteen was ready. On opening night Bette had to crawl through the window to get in. They had more stars that the GIs could count: Marlene Dietrich, Gary Cooper, Rita Hayworth. 'Everyone agreed this was the greatest gift we could give boys,' said cofounder Davis." Nlb2023 (talk) 18:09, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Also happy to supply the direct quote I cited from page 8 of Julia Stern's "Bette Davis Black and White" - also available on Google Books:

"Joan Crawford, Olivia de Havilland, Joan Fontaine, Marlene Dietrich, Rita Hayworth, Katharine Hepburn and numerous other classical-era movie stars worked to raise money for the war effort at the Hollywood Canteen, co-founded by John Garfield and Bette Davis. Davis served as its president through the Nazi and Japanese surrenders, joining her passion for the cause with the ferocious work ethic for which she was celebrated. When Rex Ingram was turned away from the Canteen's opening night gala at Ciro's Club, Davis lambasted the staff and walked in on Ingram's arm, spending the evening drinking champagne with the actor at a table for two. And it was Davis alone who determined that the Canteen dance floor should not be segregated."

Stern also includes citations for her claims and research. Nlb2023 (talk) 18:25, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

And, here is the copy from page B2 of the June 12, 1983 edition of The Baltimore Sun (cited, and available on ProQuest):

"Medal is Given to Bette Davis

Actress Bette Davis, a founder of the Hollywood Canteen where stars entertained more than a million servicemen during World War II was honored for her 'dedicated, continuing support of the armed services.'

Secretary of the Army John O Marsh Jr, presented the Distinguished Service Medal, the Defense Department’s highest civilian award, to the 74-year-old actress at a star-studded ceremony in Beverly Hills Saturday night…” Nlb2023 (talk) 18:36, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

And since you don't have access to ProQuest, I found an accessibly article from The Film Daily from June 1944 announcing Bette Davis' election as Canteen president for the third consecutive year (Page 7, righthand column). Happy to add this as a source to the page: [4]https://archive.org/details/filmdail85wids/page/n137/mode/2up?view=theater

Bette Davis Again Heads Canteen

Hollywood: Bette Davis was reelected Hollywood Canteen president for the third successive year by the Canteen's board of directors by unanimous vote at the annual meeting of the board. Canteen, which has served 1,580,000 men in uniform, begins its third year of activities." Nlb2023 (talk) 18:47, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

And another, this one from the front page of the 20 April 1944 Motion Picture Daily:

https://archive.org/details/motionpicturedai55unse_0/page/n127/mode/2up?view=theater

Davis Again Head of Hollywood Canteen

Hollywood, April 19- Bette Davis has been reelected president of the Hollywood Canteen, which under the auspices of 42 crafts, unions and guilds, is beginning it's third year..." Nlb2023 (talk) 18:54, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Mr. Nick Hardin (NLB2023 - which stands for "Nick Loves Bette") your own sources contradict one another. For example, you claim above that one of your sources claim that Garfield approached Davis for the idea for the Hollywood Canteen. However, You also use the book "Dark Victory" as a source, which claims that Davis said to a friend that it was her idea. So, there isn't even a consensus among your own claimed sources as to what the truth is regarding it. This is odd because if Davis really did co-founded an entire organization, that should be so easy to verify by a third party source. There would be ample records and articles from that time for that claim, and I am not finding that anywhere. The fact is, from what I have found, it is merely a myth that Davis co-founded the Canteen, and it appears that myth started from Bette Davis herself. From my findings, the Hollywood Canteen was founded as the west coast extension of the already established Stage Door Canteen in New York. Davis was appointed the Hollywood Canteen's honorary president, but there is a vast difference between co-founding an entire organization and being its honorary president. You are throwing around a lot of "sources" without explaining which sources are supposedly citing what information. So please tell me exactly which sources you are using for this information claims 1) That Davis co-founded the Canteen? 2) That Davis was singularly responsible for the Canteen's race policy? I have read through your sources, and I am not finding that exact information in any of them. If you are using "Dark Victory" as a source, then you should word the information you are adding to the article to reflect what that source actually states. "Dark Victory" merely publishes Davis' own claim to a friend that she co-founded it. Therefore, I think it should be stated in the article that Davis claimed to have co-founded the Canteen, rather than to state it as a proven fact when it is not. Note that Davis was prone to making wild claims about her achievements. Such as her claim that she named the Academy Award "Oscar." The Academy rejected that claim by Davis. I have no issue with it stating Davis served as president, that is a fact based on third party sources, but I have issue with the claim that Davis founded, or co-founded, it, and that she was responsible for the Canteen's racial integration policy. I found an article from 1944 that states it was the Canteen's policy - not Davis's. So, let's not stretch the truth and facts. MonicaAng (talk) 19:13, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Since you are asking for my sources, I am happy to accommodate. The sources I have found state the Hollywood Canteen was founded by a formed committee - not by the sole efforts of Davis and Garfield. In this article, dated September 27, 1942, it was the Canteen's committee who formed it and made decisions for it - not a single person (such as Davis). At the time, actress Irene Dunne presided over the committee. "The Hollywood Canteen committee gave a luncheon at the Ambassador Hotel for leading merchants of Los Angeles, who are expected to donate various supplies for the Canteen which opens officially next week. Saturday, Irene Dunne presided and one of the speakers she introduced was Chief Aviation Machinist A.J. Winchell, who was in the Battle of The Midway..."

[5]https://www.genealogybank.com/doc/newspapers/image/v2%3A14CF7881E9584F83%40GB3NEWS-16D9E1751F1DD194%402430630-16D39CB12DF94F01%4030-16D39CB12DF94F01%40?h=14&fname=joan&lname=crawford&fullname=&exsrch=1&kwinc=%22hollywood%20canteen%22&kwexc=bette&show_kwexc=1&sort=old&rgfromDate=1942&rgtoDate=1944&formDate=&formDateFlex=exact&dateType=range&processingtime=&addedFrom=&addedTo=&sid=qwohmeirtcntpmhcojogzqrxuipmsehi_wma-gateway012_1691352706912

Again, Davis did not "co-found" it. It was formed from the Stage Door Canteen, via a Hollywood committee effort. Likewise, it was the committee to dictated the race relations policy - not Davis. Davis was merely appointed the honorary president of the Canteen, and from her merely being the honorary president has thus grown the myth that she formed and created it - and it appears that myth was started by Davis herself years later. But, the fact is that is not true. Davis was involved with the Canteen, as many actors and actresses were, but she was not the person who created it, or set the Canteen's policies. To say she was is an insult to the other many people in the Hollywood community do did those things. I understand you are a huge Davis lover (even picking the username "NLB2023" - which stands for "Nick Loves Bette") but to totally rewrite the narrative of the Canteen to favor Davis is grossly inaccurate to the truth. MonicaAng (talk) 20:24, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

In the interest in putting this issue to rest, I am willing to compromise as long as you correct the wording of the content you have added to the article. Given the source I cite above, and others I can provide, I think it would be more appropriate and factually accurate to state something along of the lines of "Bette Davis was among the members of the Hollywood Victory Committee who helped establish the Hollywood Canteen." rather than the current "In 1942, Davis and John Garfield co-founded the Hollywood Canteen." I think this would be a good solution rather than to continue bantering back and forth. As for the race policy, that was set by the Canteen's committee - not Davis - and therefore, it should not cite Davis as the sole contributor to that policy. It's simply inaccurate. Through my own research, I have found that Davis biographer Julia Stern (who is a radical) flat-out lied in her biased book "Bette Davis: Black and White" regarding this issue. I pulled the article Stern cites in her book as the "source" for her claim and found that the race ruling was NOT made by Davis, but rather by the Hollywood Victory Committee (the committee who formed the Canteen). The article explicitly states: "Bette Davis of the Hollywood Victory Committee and the official who would have to be contacted (because she was the Canteen's honorary president), was away at Palm Springs for the weekend. So, this worried individual called her long distance and asked if it wasn't wrong for colored and white to be dancing together." - - - So do you see the misinformation of your sources? I am citing this from the January 15, 1943 article itself: [6]https://www.genealogybank.com/doc/newspapers/image/v2%3A12ACD7C7734164EC%40GB3NEWS-12CCEADD027A8D50%402430740-12CCEADD2E199ED8%405-12CCEADE16408C68%40Bettie%2BDavis%2BUpholds%2BMixed%2BCouples%2Bat%2BMovie%2BCanteen?h=2&fname=joan&lname=crawford&fullname=Bette%20Davis&exsrch=1&kwinc=%22hollywood%20canteen%22%20%22mixed%20couples%22&kwexc=&show_kwexc=1&sort=old&rgfromDate=1942&rgtoDate=1944&formDate=&formDateFlex=exact&dateType=range&processingtime=&addedFrom=&addedTo=&sid=yvlcayfffscjjxtqlyneoovbrwehfxqq_wma-gateway011_1691355087288

MonicaAng (talk) 21:01, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Deal. I'll change the wording to what you proposed.

I would just like to note that the Dark Victory passage I cited from the book (on page 210) reads:

"She and John Garfield began imagining the Hollywood Canteen at the table in the Warners commissary soon after the war started. 'Johnny Garfield sat down at my table during lunch," Bette later wrote. "He Had been thinking about the thousands of servicemen who were passing through Hollywood without seeing any moviestars. Garfield said something ought to be done about it. I agreed, and then and there the idea for the Hollywood Canteen was born. New York's Stage Door Canteen was up and running, but there was no similar venue for the GIs who shipped out through Los Angeles."

So not sure where the "cofounded with a friend" line came from.

Thank you for supplying those sources about the Canteen Committee - though I can't view it as I don't have access to Geneology Bank. I am curious who organized the Hollywood Canteen Committee? Have you found any information on that? I ask as Davis and Garfield recruited Jules Stein to head up the financial planning for the Canteen and was primarily tasked with fundraising.

I would also just like to note that I am not denying Davis exaggerated a lot of things in her career, everything in her career actually - as did just about every other movie star. I'm also not denying there were HUNDREDS of other industry volunteers that helped with its formation and success. Davis herself is first to credit the 42 unions and guilds that assisted. I'm pleased so many of individual contributors are listed on the Hollywood Canteen wiki page. But to erase the work she did from her own personal wiki page isn't right. She and Garfield were directly involved with its planning, formation and running. They didn't just show up to do the dishes.

Also NLB are just my initials. Sorry it's not as fun as your suggestion. Nlb2023 (talk) 21:09, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

@MonicaAng Updated. Appreciate your coming to a compromise on this. Have a nice rest of your day! Nlb2023 (talk) 21:17, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank goodness! I am glad we got that settled. I'm sorry if I came across as rude or mean spirited when I was removing the content you added, but I did, genuinely, think you were trying to push a false narrative. Can we also correct this on the Hollywood Canteen article to reflect this same information, too, please? MonicaAng (talk) 21:25, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, of course. I'll go ahead and do that. Nlb2023 (talk) 22:23, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Unbelievably bloated article

I simply glanced over the article and can easily see how incredibly bloated this article is. It is structured chronologically like a biography would be instead of being written in encyclopedia style. Tomorrow, I hope to jump into profoundly editing this article to bring it into proper encyclopedia style. I hope there are no editors who have attached themselves to and held court over this article. Such an editor would probably find my bold edits painful, but I am keeping a positive mind that such a transgression will not occur. We are not supposed to get so connected to an article that we start feeling some kind of ownership over them. My only interest in this article is to bring it into proper encyclopedia style and proper Wikipedia style. Of course, I am happy to work together with any editors who want to join me in this project. 69.180.218.186 (talk) 05:36, 7 August 2023 (UTC)