Talk:Grace in Christianity: Difference between revisions

"Grace and Merit" needs a Catholic Theologian to revise and edit

It would seem that there is too much biased Point of View in this section. For example:

According to Eusebius, the Roman emperor Constantine I was not baptised until shortly before his death in the year 337. To some (Who are we referencing here?) this might suggest that his commitment to Christianity was lukewarm; in an attempt to rebut this suggestion, a contrary suggestion was made (by whom?). Christians at the time of Constantine, or at least at the time this explanation was devised, (What times are we talking about? Reference please.) believed that the performance of the ritual itself (where does this italic come from? - Don't Catholics believe that it is by the 'Sacrament' itself, not the 'ritual') conferred forgiveness of sins. This, however, was a one-shot deal; post-baptism sins cannot be forgiven in a second Baptism not "ritual", and could only be resolved by (please add) another Sacrament called penance. By postponing baptism until the last illness, it made it unlikely that the believer committed a serious sin between baptism and death. Another explanation (from what source?) is that many men at that time followed a very strict interpretation of the passages in 1 John that said Christians do not sin; since they thought themselves unlikely to stop sinning upon their conversion, they put off their conversion and baptisms until shortly before death. Thus, postponing their baptisms was understood as an act of humility. (Where does this come from? No Catholic I know speaks of this.)

Again

From a contemporary perspective, it is impossible to tell what Constantine intended. But the theology assumed in this explanation suggests that the concept of grace as understood by Constantine may have been altered into something Protestants find hard to fit into the New Testament's treatment of the concept. (This is a biased 'Point of View' paragraph.)

Later

Rather than God's property to be offered at His sole discretion, (Point of View bias) in Medieval Western Christianity at least, grace became a sort of spiritual currency, and the Church was its banker. Believers acquired grace by participating in the Church's sacraments.

And further:

The Church can offer the excess merit in its treasury to be applied to the deficits in merit suffered by its penitent sinners. Pope Clement VI proclaimed this to be a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church in 1343.(reference please)

To my eyes this whole section (and indeed the entire "Grace in Roman Catholicism" sub-section could do with a thorough revision by a competent Catholic Theologian. At present it lacks a certain objectivity with too much bias and a point of view which seems to lack sympathy or understanding of the Catholic viewpoit it is attempting to describe to the researcher (PatrickGuadalupe (talk) 13:21, 25 May 2012 (UTC)).

Are ANY Catholic theologians reading this? Enlighten me if I am mistaken. Can a regular editor put in some "reference please" tags? PatrickGuadalupe (talk) 04:22, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

No professional theologian is needed. All that is needed is to replace the original-research disquisition with well-sourced statements of Catholic teaching on the subject. Esoglou (talk) 10:04, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, Esoglou Esoglou. I think the changes you made on 16 January, 2013, at 10;05 go a long way in improving the article (PatrickGuadalupe (talk) 08:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)).

"Divine Childship" of Jesus

Is this to avoid "Divine Sonship"? Is it necessary? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 19:09, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

It's not necessary, and it's not the phrase that's commonly used. It gets 200 results in Google Books vs. 60,000 for "Divine Sonship". Also, the paragraph also needs to be rewritten to avoid the "we". StAnselm (talk) 19:36, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Suggested merge of Actual grace

In the section Sanctifying grace, this article states:

Grace has been divided by some theologians into two forms, Sanctifying Grace and Actual Grace.

It feels unbalanced that actual grace is split out into its own article that's only three short paragraphs long, while sanctifying grace is a section in this article. — Hex (❝?!❞) 18:42, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support. The other article, the one to be merged, is not only unsourced but also quite inaccurate. Esoglou (talk) 18:56, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Since the article on actual grace seems to have been deleted, I updated the title of the section originally called "sanctifying grace" to include actual grace. AthanasiusOfAlex (talk) 18:35, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Catholicism: sanctifying and actual grace

The article currently states, “Grace has been divided by some theologians into two forms, Sanctifying Grace and Actual Grace.” This conceptual division is actually referred to in the Catechism (see No. 2000), so it is more than just “some theologians.” I went ahead and rephrased it so as to reflect the presence in the Catechism. (In any case, I think it would be necessary to mention which theologians make this division: as it is now, the sentence would merit the "who?" tag.)

I also added a number of citations, and references to the Summa Theologiae and the Council of Trent, removing some phrases that seem to have come from an old article. (For example, “its excellence, dignity, and importance become immediately apparent; for holiness and the sonship of God depend solely upon the possession of sanctifying grace, wherefore it is frequently called simply grace without any qualifying word to accompany it as, for instance, in the phrases ‘to live in grace’ or ‘to fall from grace.’”)

AthanasiusOfAlex (talk) 18:30, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

St. Paul and Grace

Saul, on the road to Damascus, experienced Grace and was forever changed. Today anyone who receives (experiences) Grace is likewise forever changed. Grace as a theological concept is interesting but there would be no one to care were it not for the experience.

Grace creates the freedom (and the peace and the joy) of which Jesus spoke. Grace provides the power that propels the follower of Christ through a life dedicated to loving God and loving one's neighbor. Without bathing daily in Grace, we simply become too burdened by guilt and fear to ever realize peace, joy and freedom.

No amount of theological knowledge, specialized terminology and learned discourse will ever motivate a sinner to fall on his knees and allow Grace to wash over him. And when he does, no explanation or rationalization is needed.Mpm1212 (talk) 21:57, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 5 external links on Grace in Christianity. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140623190358/http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm to http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140906031754/http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html to http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110219115411/http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P70.HTM to http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P70.HTM
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080109013416/http://gbgm-umc.org/UMW/Wesley/walk.stm to http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/Wesley/walk.stm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141110150935/http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/wesley/disciple.stm to http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/Wesley/disciple.stm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:39, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Grace in Christianity. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141110150935/http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/wesley/disciple.stm to http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/Wesley/disciple.stm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:29, 22 October 2017 (UTC)