Talk:Darth Vader: Difference between revisions

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Hayden Christensen

"Hayden Christensen played Skywalker in Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith; he also donned Darth Vader's armor for the final scenes of the third prequel."

I think this line should be changed to to make it clearer that in Revenge of the Sith Christensen portrays BOTH Anakin Skywalker (eg. good) and Darth Vader (eg. evil). On the same note, David Prowse wore the suite when Anakin threw Palpatine down the Death Star reactor shaft. This means that Chistensen and Prowse are the only actors to portray both Anakin and Vader. Greneath (talk) 15:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Just realized that the same logic could be applied to James Earl Jones as well Greneath (talk) 10:12, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Anakin and Vader are the same person. Throwing an old guy down a reactor and saving your son (who you put in danger in the first place)doesn't redeem you from slaughtering children with a laser stick and killing billions by blowing up a planet. There's no magical switch that makes him Anakin one minute and Vader the next. Darth Vader is a title, not a new person. Like Emperor Palpatine IS Darth Sidious. Count Dooku IS Darth Tyrannus. Anakin Skywalker IS Darth Vader. So Hayden Christensen and David Prowse didn't play two different characters.129.139.1.68 (talk) 19:38, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe i ever stated Anakin and Vader ARE diffrent people. I was writting in the context of the story. Anakin and Vader are the same man, but different identities. Anakin Skywalker is a good, compassionate but troubled man who makes some bad decisions, Darth Vader is the manifestation of all that is bad, evil and cruel within Anakin's soul, brought to the surface when he turns to the dark side. Many characters see Anakin and Vader as seperate entities. Examples included Obi-Wan telling Luke that Vader "betrayed and murdered [his] father" and when Palpatine speaks to Vader after discorving Luck's identity, as he refers to him as "the son of Skywalker" as apoused to "your son". Even Vader shares this view, when Luke tells him that he was once Anakin Skywalker Vader replies "That name no longer has any meaning to me".

Now, to the piont I was trying to make in the first place, I was preposing that a line be changed to make it clearer of when these identity switches occer. Anakin becomes Darth Vader long before he is put in the suit, and abandons his sith title and identity before Luke remove the mask.Greneath (talk) 17:37, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

You can have an identity crisis but remain the same person. Read some Aristotle or ThomasAquinas. 94.193.240.201 ([[User

talk:94.193.240.201|talk]]) 19:17, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

That's what I was saying Greneath (talk) 16:30, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Picture of Shaw

I think one of those should be included in the article also, since he originally portrayed Anakin.--E tac (talk) 04:27, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Revenge of the Sith

The last two paragraphs of the Revenge of the Sith section refer to the actions of Darth Vader. If we really must keep the two articles separate, then this information shouldn't be in the Anakin Skywalker article, but I wouldn't want to move it until it's been discussed.--Codenamecuckoo (talk) 12:57, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I don´t think, it is a problem, because the time between Mace Windu´s death and the suit were really a transition phase. However I admit, it could be shortened.87.174.193.235 (talk) 21:08, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

hes also very cute —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.170.45.172 (talk) 19:31, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I disagree, once Darth Sidious says, "Henceforth, you shall be known as Darth... Vader!" the character played by Hayden Christensen is no longer Anakin Skywalker, but Darth Vader. He may answer to Anakin Skywalker, but he is still officially Darth Vader, so assuming the people not wanting to merge the articles of Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader get their way, then this article should end for Revenge of the Sith at Mace Windu's death, and not mention anything else for Anakin Skywalker until he throws Darth Sidious into the Death Star II's power core, in Return of the Jedi. But of course, I support a merge of the articles.

Question

How did Skywalker get that scar on him? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebelfleet101 (talk • contribs) 20:57, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

In a lightsaber fight, a Sith aspirant scarred him. User:Gnmng Jreck

The Clone Wars series

Should we put Anakin's role in the show? User:Leader Vladimir

Anakin the main protagonist in the original trilogy?

I thought that was Luke... --79.211.99.129 (talk) 12:56, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

You are correct. Luke is the protagonist, and Vader is more of the antagonist, but good luck convincing anyone of that here. For all their talk of NPOV, the editors of this page have drunk the cool-aid that Lucas has served about the Star Wars series really being about Anakin. Kenobifan (talk) 22:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Not for nothing, but it *IS* tough to argue with the guy who created the series, much less the guy who also gets to decide what canon is or is not... Not matter how many times we have to tell him Han shot first! ;) Dphilp75 (talk) 22:14, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Merger Proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Closed. The result was Merge. Jhenderson777 (talk) 14:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Why are there two pages for this character? We have a Darth Vader and an Anakin Skywalker page, this doesn't make sense since they are the same person. Darth Vader is just a title he has gained after becoming a sith lord. Darth Sidious's real name is Palpatine, but we don't create two pages for him either... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elwood1992 (talk • contribs) 15:41, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

It really doesn't make any sense as to why the same character should have two different pages, just because they have different avatars in the series. It's essential to have one article to ensure some continuity whle explaining his transition from Jedi knight to bad guy. Ilov90210 (talk) 19:06, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

They are two completely different characters between the first and second trilogies. Regardless, I came here to move your talk to the bottom of the page and fix your merge templates. SpigotWho? 17:06, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean by "different characters"? They are clearly the same person. Perhaps Darth Vader supressed some of his memories and/or his former personality, but that is a psychological process seen in many people who have had a traumatic expierence of some sort. Either way it does not matter, this is a wikipedia page for a person not for an icon and therefore it should capture his whole life not just his years as a jedi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.119.110.77 (talk) 13:42, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I say, merge them. On the Star Wars wikia, they're the same page.--24.149.255.225 (talk) 19:39, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I would keep them separate, although they are the same person, the identities of each is vastly different. Dark567 (talk) 19:44, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I would keep them separate. To borrow from old Ben "...The good man I knew was gone... Darth VAder betrayed and murdered your father. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.35.224.63 (talk) 17:10, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I would be in favour of a merge. They are in fact one and the same character, and neither page is "complete" as the journey from "Anakin" to "Vader" and back to "Anakin" is one story about the same person. To me, it's simply logical that this merge should take place. Dphilp75 (talk) 04:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. In the fictional context of the storyline, Anakin and Vader are separate. George Lucas himself implies that in the dialogue and the Episode VI scene where Vader is unmasked. User:Leader Vladimir

I'm uncertain how you can disagree with Vader and Anakin being the same person, unless you are referring to them as alter egos of each other. They *ARE* the same person, and Anakin's "transformation" in to Vader and back to Anakin is all in the context of a story.

To me, it's the same as Jacen Solo and Darth Caedus, Jacen's story continued through his fall to the dark side, and even as Darth Caedus, he is, at the same time, still Jacen Solo.

If Vader were not still Anakin, why would Luke have been so convinced he could still redeem him? If Vader had in fact "killed" Anakin, why would there "still be good in him"? Dphilp75 (talk) 17:00, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps if it could be merged they can be moved here. Jhenderson777 (talk) 20:09, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Keep them 'separated' because they represent "two characters" in the series. I think of it like Anakin had split personality, two completely different persona. Volbeatfan (talk) 04:50, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Keep separate. It's clearly established that Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are two different personas, despite being the same person. --PopCulturalTX (talk) 18:13, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Look at it. He's the same person, it's the same persona. Maybe none of you got this but the Darth Vader persona is just a torn up Anakin Skywalker persona. In fact, it starts to transition into the Darth Vader style in Revenge of the Sith.

If you guys still argue it to be two separate persona, then have a section called personality, it's in everything.

How many personalities does Hulk have? 3 or 4. We don't have separate articles called Devil Hulk, Grey Hulk, Hulk, Bruce Banner. It doesn't make sense because they're the same people even if they have different personalities. This is, as you say it is, two personalities. So if we don't have 4 pages on Hulk, why 2 on Darth Vader. 4 is bigger than Hulk. Even though one form of Hulk has appeared more than the other, they've still appeared long enough to have pages out of them. So if you want to keep this article separate to Darth Vader's, then do the same to Hulk.

Merge it.--Schmeater (talk) 00:21, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Instead of viewing it as if they are the same in the fictional universe, how about we view it from the perspective we should, an out-of-universe encyclopedic one? Anakin and Darth Vader have very different development and creation information, and their reception and cultural impact is certainly entirely separate. Darth Vader has had more of an impact on culture, and this reception and impact is very different for each character. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 14:12, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Keep separate. See Clark Kent for precedent. Anakin and Dart Vader are two very separate persons, sharing one body. Sith Lord 13 (talk) 12:14, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Merge. They are the same person, but two vastly different identities. Nevertheless, the change is personality is part of the character's own history; therefore the history of Anakin and the history of Vader should be seperated, but within the same article. Geeky Randy (talk) 06:15, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Keep separate. The iconic armored and masked figure of Darth Vader has a cultural reach beyond the films, the discussion of which is irrelevant to an article of the fallen Jedi, Anakin Skywalker. 72.49.43.222 (talk) 20:30, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

merge. its comparable to someone changing there name. there still the same person. or maybe changing there name and haveing extreme plastic surgury to look differnt. 69.115.204.217 (talk) 13:23, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Keep Seperate. If for any reason, the lengthy material for both characters. Annakin serves as the name for the character for ONLY the last three movies, the prequel to the first three movies which focus on what he did as Darth Vader, NOT as Annakin. He only became Annakin again after he died saving Luke from Emperor Palpatine. Besides that more than one person played both Annakin and Darth Vader. Rhatsa26X (talk) 22:03, 26 July 2010 (CDT)

Merge. A new title doesn't mean that there is a new character. They are one in the same. There aren't two pages for Queen Elizabeth II and Princess Elizabeth, since she is one in the same.--Jojhutton (talk) 16:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

MERGE! For all of you who say keep separate, because they are two separate characters, then split the Anakin's article into "Young Anakin Skywalker" "Padawan Anakin Skywalker" "General Skywalker" "Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker" "Darth Vader Pre-Armor" etc. It's an all or nothing arguement, either make many articles on the different variationsof this character, or do what Wookieepedia has done and make it ONE FREAKIN ARTICLE! It's not that hard to figure out! Look at Gollum's article. It contains information on his formal self Smeagol, as well, but should that article be split, simply because there are two names for two separate personalities? No, because they are the same hobbit, no matter how you look at it. By the way, if these articles remain separate, then Anakin's shouldn't be allowed to mention anything between Mace Windu's death and Emperor Palpatine's death, with Darth Vader's should only be allowed to mention things in between those two events, because once Sidious say, "Henseforth, you shall be known as Darth... Vader!" that character is no longer Anakin Skywalker, only Darth Vader. He may respond to being called Anakin, but after Sidious' proclamation, that name no longer has any meaning for him. Same with Sidious' death. Once that character decides to turn on his master to protect his son, Darth Vader is no more and is re-replaced by Anakin Skywalker, so the way I see this is that it's an all or nothing issue either make Anakin's article 100% Anakin 0%Vader and Vader's article 100%Vader 0% Anakin, or merge the two to avoid any confusion on this character.

Merge: They are the same character. Both articles are far too long and plot driven as it is so length of article shouldn't be a dissuader to merging. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 16:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

For all those that said merging. Think about how hard it is to put the two together. You are going to have to do a lot of remodifications before merging. Jhenderson777 (talk) 20:15, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Closed and done! I have done some remodifications on a sandbox because I knew it would have be a tough one as stated above. The consensus was to merge and it is now merged. Thank you for your cooperations. Jhenderson777 (talk) 00:11, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Infobox(es)

If this is to be a genuine merge, then it seems inappropriate to maintain two character infoboxes. Jhenderson (et al.) -- any objection? --EEMIV (talk) 15:30, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I have done all I can do to improve it. Now it's your turn and then I will see how I will feel about it. Jhenderson777 (talk) 16:00, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Structure

I'm taking a lunch break, but FYI I think later today I'm going to try to 1) truncate much of the depictions sections and 2) rearrange it to reflect real-world chronology, i.e. start with original trilogy and work "back" to his masking, then move on to EU. I'll use Palpatine (FA) as a bit of a guideline for how to focus and develop this chunk. --EEMIV (talk) 15:36, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

That's great. To be honest the articles weren't that good when seperated in the first place and nothing has hardly changed that wasn't already in the article except for the images. So it's good to see that somebody's taking their time to make it better. Jhenderson777 (talk) 16:48, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Edit warring?

I have been accused of edit warring on this article.[1][2] Is there anyone else who feels that this is true? No diffs were provided, so I am not sure what this person is talking about. 98.82.1.253 (talk) 03:25, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I suppose an appropriate warning, and perhaps I should've had one directed at me, too ;-). Regardless, the question of which article to use in the article seems to have evaporated. No worries. --EEMIV (talk) 01:25, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I know you're kidding, but not everyone else here does, so I'm not joining you in the smile right now. But thanks anyway. 98.82.1.253 (talk) 02:01, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I didn't notice you edit warring in this article's history. But who am I to judge. Jhenderson777 (talk) 16:28, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved by rough consensus. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 12:25, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

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Anakin Skywalker → Darth Vader — Darth Vader is definitely the more well known form of this character among the general public and has wider name recognition. Prior to the release of episode I the name Anakin Skywalker had almost no recognition and the Darth Vader name has certainly had a few more decades to become established. If we do indeed consider these the same character I would suggest renaming the article on grounds of recognizability and WP:COMMONNAME Solid State Survivor (talk) 14:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support as far more recognizable/notable out in the real world (and in the films, I would argue). Dick Cheney, &c. are referred to as Darth Vader and not Anakin Skywalker for a reason. Better yet, re-split the articles despite what the participants above decided. — AjaxSmack 17:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
  • And, just to add an in-universe rationale as well, Vader chose to change his name from Skywalker and we should recognize his preference per WP:NAMES. Although, he might have changed his mind at the end of Return, his untimely death leaves us with no record of such. — AjaxSmack 20:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose Anakin Skywalker is the name used throught the saga 1 to 6, Darth Vader is only used in 4 to 6. Kavas (talk) 17:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support UPDATED Darth Vader is a famous epiteth but it's not the characters name, and unlike other articles like Gollum the use of his real name is consistent accross the series. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 17:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Changed to support due to argument of least surprise and most commonly accepted name in out of universe material Carl Sixsmith (talk) 20:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose Anakin Skywalker has become far more recognizable among young fans of the series than Darth Vader. (User:Leader Vladimir|Leader Vladimir

• Support Even among younger fans, myself included, the Darth Vader identity is much more popular and well-known. The image used in this article's lead would be described by most almost everyone as showing Darth Vader, not Anakin Skywalker. City of Destruction 23:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
• Comment How young? Now, young people watch Star Wars: The Clone Wars (2008 TV series), I guess they know the name Anakin. Kavas (talk) 21:23, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

18 – the first film I saw was The Phantom Menace, I only saw the original trilogy later on. Even among children today, I am sure the Darth Vader identity is much better known, due to its continuing influence and iconic value in popular culture. City of Destruction 23:07, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support Darth Vader is by far the most common name in real life; the Vader personality is much more recognizable and has had much more impact on culture. Some evidence: The examples in the "In popular culture" section of this article are almost entirely about Vader, except for two sentences which mention Anakin. There are currently 282 articles linking to Anakin Skywalker and 540 linking to Darth Vader. A Google search (of English-language pages without the word Wikipedia and with quote marks around the phrase) returns 616,000 results for "Anakin Skywalker" and 4,370,000 for "Darth Vader". So from a real-world perspective, the Anakin sections of this article mostly serve as an interesting backstory to the well-known and iconic villain that is Darth Vader. Brian the Editor (talk) 02:08, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support Oppose - all four sources cited in the lede sentence, identifying Anakin Skywalker as the main character of the film saga, refer to...Anakin Skywalker. Not cited in the article, but Lucas in two of the DVD commentaries also says (paraphrasing the one I heard a few nights ago) that the saga focuses on Anakin's rise and fall. Additionally, while I appreciate that "Darth Vader" has cachet as a cultural icon, but most of the scholarly material cited in the article refers to the Skywalker character. Gave it some more thought, and I think Darth Vader is the more likely search term and the identity of the subject as it was initially established. I hope a rename will help diminish the fervor for an unmerge. --EEMIV (talk) 20:51, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
• Addtional Comments Thanks everyone for contributing to this discussion. I think it would be usefull if we tried to follow WP:TITLE and WP:WAF guidlines when thinking about what to title of this article. Under WP:TITLE the two most important criteria for titling an article are Recognizability and Naturalness - the idea being that the ideal title for any article will be the one that a reader is most likely to look up and that title should confirm in the reader that the article is a about the topic they were looking for. Darth Vader is the name that clearly has greater perception among the general public - it is a name that people are more likely to look up (for instance I know many people who have never seen any of these moves who know who Darth Vader is but are clueless on the name Anakin Skywalker), and leading those who arent familiar with the particulars of the story of the Star Wars franchise to an article titled Anakin Skywalker would probably confuse them and lead them to doubt that the article is about the subject they were looking for information on. It appears to me that the best arguments in defense of keeping the title Anakin Skywalker argue that this title is more acurate since it describes the character at all points in the storyline. Unfortunately I feel these arguements are afflicted by an in universe perspective in their reasoning; as a general use encylopedia it doesnt matter what is the more acurate name within the story confines of the fictional universe but rather what name serves the more general purpose. Beyond this, WP:WAF urges against writing about things "by their fictional chronology, rather than the actual order they were published." We should make important note the the name "Darth Vader" first appears in the oiginal 1977 film, and that the name "Anakin Skywalker" is never used in the franchise until 1983's Return of the Jedi - and even then it is always used in the past tense as part of Darth Vader's backstory. Considering that Darth Vader is the name primarily understood by the public, that it is the first published name of the character, and that the character was known exclusively by that name (at least in major works) for the first 6 years of its existence I feel it is a better title. Solid State Survivor (talk) 23:31, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Question: There are excellent arguments for both sides here. Why can't we employ WP:IAR and move the article to Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader or Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker? And obviously we can have redirects taking Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader to whichever title we choose. 98.82.196.213 (talk) 07:55, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

To be honest I created an section on this talk page to purpose this to be moved to the redirection of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader but I then deleted it soon after. Jhenderson⁷⁷⁷ 14:00, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support UPDATED, changed per AjaxSmack. Geeky Randy (talk) 17:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Opposed for merely the sake of simplicity. Anakin Skywalker is the character's real name, therefore should be the title of the article. Secondly, Anakin Skywalker is a name used throughout the entire series, while Darth Vader is only used in episodes IV-VI. The popularity argument is true—Darth Vader is way a way more popular name for Anakin Skywalker than his real name—but isn't that what redirects are for? Geeky Randy (talk) 17:50, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
  • If it wasn't clear from the article, neither of these is a real person so there is no "real name". Even if real, it doesn't matter how long someone has a name, just which name is more notable. For example, Terry Gene Bollea has had that name his entire life but he is notable as Hulk Hogan and that's where the article is. — AjaxSmack 02:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
    • Duly noted. Changed voted above. Geeky Randy (talk) 17:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. This conundrum is exactly why the pages never should have been merged in the first place. The canon treats them as separate characters, and Darth Vader's existence is clearly delineated in the films with definite beginning and end points. Powers ^T 20:27, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Précisement. — AjaxSmack 02:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
    • For the record, if the merge cannot be undone, this article should clearly be at Darth Vader, under the principle of least surprise, if nothing else. Powers ^T 13:17, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I would support undoing the merge. 98.82.196.213 (talk) 13:21, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The consensus to merge is opened back up. I suggest to those who didn't vote on it to be merged to vote for it this time. Jhenderson⁷⁷⁷ 14:27, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Even though I am the one that did the merge. I kind of agree with you. Even though it is the same person. They are both two popular identities of the same character that are worth talking about on their own. Kind of like (Clark Kent/Superman) and (Devil/Satan/Lucifer) But I closed it with the merge because that's what the people wanted. The ones that wanted the undoing should have voted too when you had the chance. That's kind of why I created an different consensus since there could be other people that didn't have the chance to speak out. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 18:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The mechanics of the merge process attracts less wider input than that of the move process. — AjaxSmack 20:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I know that. And I think I made it clear who I replied to then. To the people who supported the undoing. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 20:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support The first film, which could remain the best known, describes him simply as Darth Vader. The current title is taking too-much of an in-universe approach. The slash title is definitely a no-no. PatGallacher (talk) 16:11, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

This is about changing the title of the article, not splitting them again. You missed out on that one. Doy! Geeky Randy (talk) 19:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I think we should do this if choosing between these two names be the problem. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 18:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose - There is no harm in the current title as Darth Vader already links here automatically. If there is no problem, then there shouldn't be any need for a solution.--Jojhutton (talk) 20:07, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps we should just name articles with sequential numbers, since we can always create a redirect from any plausible search terms. Powers ^T 21:21, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Consensus to unmerge

There originally was a consensus closed to merge since some people feel strong about the merge I opened up a new one. Jhenderson⁷⁷⁷ 14:17, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

What is the point of gaining a consensus only to re-open the debate a few days later because some have strong feelings, the point will never be closed whilst both sides of the argument have their strong points of view. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 17:12, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I see your point. Of course I am not really not reopening the same debate. I am using this section as a consensus to agree on keeping this merged or not or put back as was. And should probably be voted by some that haven't shared their opinion yet. Some may have thought the merge was a disappointment (which never had a chance to voted in the first place) as seen above and some may have though it is fine as it is. Or this section can be used just state your opinion which way they thought was better. Over all I get your point too but that's not the subject here. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 18:03, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The merge should stay, they are the same person (apart from to some people that can't seperate reality from fiction). I am however going to change my vote in the renaming stakes due to the argument of least surprise that was put above. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 20:16, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support Darth Vader and some people here have a good idea about the thing being split and being about the very different characters in the life of this one. 207.81.170.99 (talk) 19:10, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
• Unmerge, just like Clark Kent/Superman. Powers ^T 23:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support unmerge --Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 11:22, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
• Unmerge, per the Superman/Clark Kent precedent. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 12:40, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose (as someone who a few years ago wanted to keep the articles separate) -- Much of the third-party scholarly work I've found on the subject treats them as the same character. Although pop culture and early EU treatments diverge, from the concept/development perspective and third-party scholarly reaction, keeping them together is appropriate. I'm much more comfortable with changing the name to Darth Vader than the prospect of forking content. --EEMIV (talk) 12:59, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
  • It seems to me that the concept/development is very different for the two characters. Darth Vader was conceived and developed as a villain, while Anakin Skywalker was conceived very differently. Powers ^T 16:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Your opinion on that doesn't really matter. You're not a notable source. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 17:18, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

It is perhaps more accurate to say that the Vader persona was developed first, and the A. Skywalker developed in such a way as to have him "evolve" into DV. The latter's track is predicated on the former. The more I revisit it, the more I think it would be appropriate to rename the article but keep them together. --EEMIV (talk) 18:04, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I know this a entirely different subject of this particular topic. But if this stayed merged perhaps the better name is Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader just to avoid favoritism over which name it should be. The name seems to be the basic problem of the merge. Although I am not completely sure of this name either because it is a bit long. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 18:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

This is how it looks like. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 18:23, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Slashes in names are strenuously advised against. --EEMIV (talk) 19:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

OK then. Fair enough. That's why I originally dismissed that idea. Even though I have never actually noticed anywhere advising against it. It wouldn't surprise me if so. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 19:57, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

It's called an opinion. This is a talk page. My opinion certainly does matter when it comes to arriving at a consensus. Notability is only an issue when it comes to article inclusion. Powers ^T 21:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose unmerge - Same person, same character. Vader is an alias. No reason to have two articles when one will accomplish the same goals.--Jojhutton (talk) 20:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support per above. Based on 8 support votes, I think they support unmerge Darth Vader. JJ98 (talk) 06:15, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:Consensus is NOT a vote. Why do people keep using voting as a way to determine consensus?--Jojhutton (talk) 23:20, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The same reason real-world democracies do: because it's an easy way to measure something that is very hard to gauge without metrics of some sort. Powers ^T 14:29, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose unmerge Same person, he was a good man that turned to a bad man gradually, that's the story George Lucas created. Kavas (talk) 20:48, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

• UnmergeWhen I proposed the name change I thought the application of naming policy would be clear - but when debate got rolling it made me think deeper on why these two things should co-exist on one article. In my opinion the primary arguement in merging these pages - that the two are "the same person" is a very in universe perspective which does not serve the function of a general-use encyclopedia. That line of reasoning attempts to think of the subjects within the context of the fictional universe when it seems apparent to me that the two have real world notability that are very distinct from one another. One of these subjects served as the central antagonist in a film trilogy made between 1977-1983 the other the main protagonist in a trilogy made between 1999-2005, their roles and characterization are distinct (to some extent even opposite) and the two hold very different spots in the general publics perception. For instance Darth Vader was ranked as Empire magazine's #2 all-time greatest movie character - this notable title cant be rephrased to be about "Anakin Skywalker" or "the Darth Vader persona of Anakin Skywalker" because that isnt how that publication, or the public at large, thinks about Darth Vader. As this article currently stands it reads like two distinct articles that are not smoothly fused together - alternating in sections between refering to "Anakin" and "Darth" - and given that policy compels us to write articles like this in order of real-world publication instead of in universe chronology I dont think its really even possible to make this a cohesive article with a smooth flow. I think the best arguement for keeping them merged, as far as wikipedia policy dictates, is the issue of redundant content; however, if we are worried about redundant content then I suggest in relevant sections of each page we could simply briefly summarize and direct readers to the other page. Solid State Survivor (talk) 05:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

• Note: due to the move request above, Anakin Skywalker was moved to Darth Vader. The previous revision history of Darth Vader is now located at Anakin Skywalker (see old revision). Assuming I did this correctly (it got kind of complicated with the talk page archives), this unmerge request should not be effected by the move. Cheers, Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 12:39, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support unmerge. These are not real people but fictional characters and can be dealt with separately due to their highly divergent characteristics. As noted previously, it works fine with Clark Kent and Superman, two characters far lees diametrically opposite than Skywalker and Vader. Ditto for Bruce Wayne and Batman, Dick Grayson (et al.) and Robin, &c. — AjaxSmack 01:51, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
• Comment. Darth Vader and Anakin has the same characteristics. Anakin has changed his political view in Episode 3, that's all. Anakin, when he was named Anakin, did some Genocidial acts, like killing the people who tortured his mother. Bruce Wayne and Batman can be seperate, but Darth Vader is what Anakin evolved gradually during the first 3 episodes. Note that, in Episode 5, "the offspring of Anakin Skywalker" was used to refer to his son. Kavas (talk) 12:27, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Anakin Skywalker is a hero. Darth Vader is a villain. In fiction, it doesn't get much more opposite than that. Powers ^T 20:34, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
    • That's overly simplistic and misleading. Development of the former is a continuation of the latter, just backward. As a side note, the all(?)-encompassing text coming out about the character here treats them as the same character, based on the jacket description (evolution from slave boy to etc. etc.) --EEMIV (talk) 22:32, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
      • That hero cuts off Mace Windu's hand. That villain kills the Emporer.Kavas (talk) 12:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
        • That's a disturbing point of view. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 18:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
        • Yes, the former is the fall of a hero; the latter is the redemption of a villain. Each serves a very distinct narrative purpose. Powers ^T 17:08, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
• We need more opinions. So far this is a no consensus. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 18:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Considering this question seems to have come up quite a few times on both articles' talk pages over the last couple of years, let me suggest this: let's shift more of our focus to the article itself, bolster the cited material addressing the real-world development and critical reaction to the character[s?], and see whether the actual academics and producers out there can more clearly illuminate the appropriate treatment of this subject. If the sources we're should be spending our time adding more often treat them as distinct, then perhaps a re-separation is appropriate; however, if the trend is to see them as a single character with massive mood swings ;-), then let's keep them together. --EEMIV (talk) 22:52, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
    • Inside the universe of Star Wars itself it is obvious that they are one and the same.( Even though Obi-Wan Kenobi does state that Anakin died and hence Vader is born hence making these identities a bridge between good and evil between one person) But in an out of universe perspective it is clear that they are two notable aliases in the fictional world that can be seperated. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 23:09, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
      • I keep reading that and the converse asserted on the talk page. But I don't see this belief substantiated by cited sources, which ultimately is what we're after. Let's close this rehash of a perennial conversation and instead dig up the perspectives of real-world people who actually matter, rather than us silly Star Wars and wiki fanboys. The Darth Vader uber-book I referenced somewhere on this talk page apparently is out in Europe -- anyone have it? Sounds like a good starting point. Someone raise their hand to listen to the DVD commentaries. I'll go back to Google Books. The underlying question: do people who matter address/refer to this topic as a single character, or do the analyze/discuss/etc. them as two different things? I found four separate sources in about 24 hours a few weeks ago -- let's stop yapping here and go work on the actual article. --EEMIV (talk) 23:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
        • I get it already! You want to hear information and sources outside in in-universe perspectives. I am all for that. I really do want to hear opinions from George Lucas and other creators about this subject in interviews and documentaries as well. Information like this can even make articles like this better as well. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 23:30, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
          • Good idea. After all, Lucas created Darth Vader (or Anakin). Kavas (talk) 02:12, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
• Support unmerge per Solid State Survivor and Powers. We're essentially dealing with two distinct characters from two different film trilogies. In-universe arguments that they are the same "person" don't really hold since our primary concern is real world notability. PC78 (talk) 08:39, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose Unmerge No-one has yet provided any real world reason for the article to be split. All give examples refer to them as one and the same, which they are. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 14:29, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
• Support Unmerge Neutral, especially with the advent of Star Wars: The Force Unleashed and Star Wars: The Clone Wars. There is a clear difference in the two characters, and I'll be darned if Concept and Creation of the characters is the same. Reception and impact would also most likely be different. Harry Blue5 (talk) 16:16, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Upon reflection, most reception and stuff about Anakin is moreorless how he became Darth Vader and then redeemed himself. While Darth Vader has become a symbol for eviless, Anakin has done no such thing. Change to neutral. Harry Blue5 (talk) 21:06, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose Unmerge I think some of the editors are missing the point of how an encyclopaedia deals with fictional characters and indeed real people! The fact is that Darth Vader and Skywalker are the same character, one character cannot have two articles- if so why stop at two? Why not have one for ever emotional stage/identity of the character's life? Why don't we do this for all fictional characters? Heck why not do it for real people too? We could have a page for George W. Bush (student), George W. Bush (governor), George W. Bush (president) and George W. Bush (post-presidency)]]. One character/person- One article, the developments of the character in the "canon" is irrelevant, this isn't a fictional encyclopaedia which pretends the Star Wars universe is real but an encyclopaedia of fact which contains an entry for a fictional character and their impact upon film and popular culture- the "canon" identity/story of the character is actually secondary to that. Dominic's Fire (talk) 19:35, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Fictional characters are entirely different from real people. A real person is always the same person, for instance. That fact is arguable in fictional characters. Harry Blue5 (talk) 21:06, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Now here's the thng. I never thought that JHenderson's little "consesus" would get us this far, as really all this is is flaming, when we decided to unmerge and closed the official consesus above. No, not that one, the one before that, yeah, right there. But this harsh forum has been inactive for a year and a half and still hasn't closed because people are faling to make a decision. Since this one was never an official consesus and can't close, I'm coming from the future with a little comment. A lot of people will give us the "Clark Kent/Superman" thing but what you don't understand is that you guys are looking at it from a fictional perspective, we're looking at it from a real-world perspective. In the real world, Vader and Skywalker are treated as entirely separate characters, with different cultural impact. When somebody says the name "Darth Vader," does somebody respond with "Oh, Darth Vader, you mean that name that anakin had for a while." No! They say, "Oh, Darth Vader, the bad guy from the old Star Wars movies." So, you might also say, "Then let's have articles for Anakin Skywalker (Tatooine slave), Anakin Skywalker (Jedi Youngling), Anakin Skywalker (Jedi Padawan), Anakin Skywalker (Jedi Knight0. But in the REAL WORLD, all those "guys" are treated as the same person, in magazines, they don't rank all the different Anakin Skywalkers. I have a book that lists Star Wars characters, for example, and in that book, it lists "DARTH VADER" and later "ANAKIN SKYWALKER." Yeah, I don't mind if they're one article on Wookieepedia, because they preteend that Star Wars is the real world, and real people only get one article, but in a fictional universe, us here at Wikipedia can't decide what's "real" or not. Sure, people can always say they're the same person if they do, but until George Lucas becomes an editor on Wikipedia, he doesn't get to decide what we put in our articles. Even when he does, he doesn't get to barge in here and say "OK, I said Anakin was Vader, so fix this article immediately." He doesn't get special treatment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.242.172.224 (talk) 15:04, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

This vote is almost three years old. There was no point in commenting in this section. --Jasca Ducato (talk) 13:30, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes it has been a while since I started this consensus and I feel that it was stupid that I did such a thing. It really seems to be a no consensus going on here if you add up the consensus before this one. I really believe if you want to re-add Anakin Skywalker you should do it the right way. Anakin Skywalker was nothing but plot junk before (if I remember correctly). No reception, creation and concept that made it per Wikipedia standards. If you add that kind of stuff together than even I would support such a move. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 14:47, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The result is oppose move. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 18:07, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Darth Vader → Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader — In the last discussion there was no consensus to move the article to Darth Vader, the debate was in stalemate. If we move the article to Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, it would be a better name, as Anakin was not called Darth Vader in first three episodes and he died as Anakin in the sixth episode. Kavas (talk) 12:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Oppose, and it's clear there was no consensus for this name in the just-closed discussion. Powers ^T 13:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Just closed discussion was on moving the article to Darth Vader, and only 2 editors commented on moving it to Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. Hence, we should try a new WP:RM to see whether people would choose this name. Kavas (talk) 13:11, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose Darth Vader is by far the best-known name for the character. YLee (talk) 14:45, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:UCN; "Darth Vader" is by far the most established name for this character. Also close, not only because a prior RM has only just ended, but because there appears to be an ongoing discussion to unmerge the two articles. This latest discussion seems rather unconstructive, IMO. PC78 (talk) 15:15, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose since Darth Vader is the best-known name, and Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is a clumsy mashup. Erik (talk | contribs) 17:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - The characters name is Anakin Skywalker, his alter ego is Darth Vader. I prefer the actual characters name over the alter ego myself.--Jojhutton (talk) 17:39, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - completely and unnecessarily clunk title. Let's snowball-close this discussion. --EEMIV (talk) 20:43, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
• Comment I am one of those editors that commented on it but I am not sure that a slashed name is acceptable. (There seems to be some exceptions: The Mutant Agenda/Mutant's Revenge) But if it is acceptable, I suppose I would Support it just for it to be neutral about what's the common name. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 15:31, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment: If it's necessary to use both intentities of the individual than it would be better to just unmerge. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 21:02, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose This title appears to me to be inconsistent with policy presented in WP:TITLE. In my view it fails 3 of the 5 general criteria of naturalness, consistency, and most notably conciseness. WP:TITLE tells us that "An article can only have one title" - if we really feel it is necessary to give this article two titles (albeit combined with by a slash) perhaps the underlying issue is that this topic is better suited to two articles. Solid State Survivor (talk) 09:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose for various reasons mentioned above. I could see it at either Darth or Anakin, not both. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Solid State Survivor, you are misunderstanding WP:TITLE. If X is a name, and Y is a name, then X/Y is another name. See Imia/Kardak. This article is on islands on Aegean Sea, there is dispute over sovereignty between Greece and Turkey, the article is named Imia/Kardak using both names. This is an important part of the neutrality of the article. Using slashes where necessary is a WP policy, you don't have to seperate articles. For example, the article on the city of Gdansk cannot be named Gdansk/Danzig as the city is in Poland clearly, but Imia/Kardak is called Imia/Kardak because the title should use both Imia and Kardak due to WP:NPOV. If you have to use slashes in order to abide by WP rules, then use them. Darth Vader is not the correct name of the character as this name is not mentioned in episodes 1 and 2, per "Precision" the name should be Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader or Anakin Skywalker. Also note that inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more common. "For example, tsunami is preferred over the arguably more common, but less accurate tidal wave." Darth Vader is a less accurate name for the article as the saga is centered on Anakin, only in episodes 4 and 5 (and -except the final- Episode 6) use Darth Vader name. For consistency, what about Palpatine (not Darth Sidious or Emperor), Count Dooku (not Darth Tyrannus), Obi Wan Kenobi (not Obi Wen Kenobi, the name in the 4th episode)? So, Anakin Skywalker is better than Darth Vader for consistency. Shorter titles are often preferred to longer ones, not always. This is a special case, Darth Vader is the same person as Anakin, in episode 2 you can see he did genocidial acts, there is no reason to seperate the article. If you don't seperate the article, you cannot mention Darth Vader as a character in episodes 1 and 2. So, Darth Vader cannot be a name if the article is not seperated. Thus, Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is a better name due to WP:TITLE if you want to use Darth Vader in title. Kavas (talk) 18:21, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment. With respect, I think it is you who are misunderstanding Wikipedia policy here. Both WP:TITLE and WP:NPOV clearly state that an article can only have one title, and discourage against the use of alternatives in titles such as what you are proposing here. X/Y is not "another name", it is an invented name. Also, comparing a naming dispute for the article of a fictional character on Wikipedia to a real world dispute such as Imia/Kardak is a bit of a stretch, to say the very least. PC78 (talk) 22:57, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
    • Comment. Yes, it is an invented name but this is acceptable as a name because it is invented by authors of sources on Star Wars, and not by Wikipedia editors, due to WP:NOR. Here are some links from Google books. Let's begin.

1. "http://books.google.com/books?id=PB57P_dOF7EC&pg=PA62&dq=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&hl=en&ei=gqZ_TNrZAdmQ4gaH-vjxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22anakin%20skywalker%2Fdarth%20vader%22&f=false
2. " http://books.google.com/books?id=PB57P_dOF7EC&pg=PA62&dq=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&hl=en&ei=gqZ_TNrZAdmQ4gaH-vjxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22anakin%20skywalker%2Fdarth%20vader%22&f=false
3. " http://books.google.com/books?id=npIsZV7grboC&pg=PA218&dq=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&hl=en&ei=gqZ_TNrZAdmQ4gaH-vjxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22anakin%20skywalker%2Fdarth%20vader%22&f=false
4. "http://books.google.com/books?id=pY6GAAAAIAAJ&q=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&dq=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&hl=en&ei=gqZ_TNrZAdmQ4gaH-vjxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ
5. "http://books.google.com/books?id=gJ98yvAmxM0C&pg=PA25&dq=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&hl=en&ei=gqZ_TNrZAdmQ4gaH-vjxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEsQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22anakin%20skywalker%2Fdarth%20vader%22&f=false
6. "http://books.google.com/books?id=ePbQbDbg9hkC&pg=PA115&dq=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&hl=en&ei=gqZ_TNrZAdmQ4gaH-vjxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFEQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=%22anakin%20skywalker%2Fdarth%20vader%22&f=false
7. "http://books.google.com/books?id=5cFZAAAAMAAJ&q=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&dq=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&hl=en&ei=S6d_TM-eFZWG4QbTyNHTCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCQQ6AEwADgK
8. "http://books.google.com/books?id=HrYGhLXC_mkC&q=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&dq=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&hl=en&ei=S6d_TM-eFZWG4QbTyNHTCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCgQ6AEwATgK

You can find at least 43 sources that call the character AnakinSkywalker/DarthVader from Google Books. AnakinSkywalker/DarthVader is a name that refer to this character according to these sources. WP:TITLE does not discourage against the use of alternatives in titles such as what I am proposing here. Imia/Kardak example clearly shows that you can use slashes in article titles and this is not against the policy that WP articles can have only one name. This is because Imia/Kardak is a name of the islands as well Imia or Kardak, according to sources. So, you can use X/Y form if the sources use it as a name. Besides, The Mutant Agenda/Mutant's Revenge shows slashes can be used outside the real world. So, there can be three names: Anakin Skywalker, Darth Vader, and Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. Anakin Skywalker is the name of the character in episodes 1, 2, 3, 6. This name's role can be expanded to episodes 4 and 5, but Darth Vader is what Episodes 4 and 5 is about. So, Darth Vader is a name of the character in episodes 3, 4, 5, 6. Darth Vader would not be an accurate name for the character for episodes 1 and 2, because he is never called Darth Vader in these episodes. In an article on Episode 2, can you write this sentence: The main character is "Darth Vader". No. The main character is Anakin Skywalker. Is naming the character in Episode 2 as Anakin Skywalker is "in-universe style"? Certainly, no. This shows Darth Vader is not the named used for the character in the saga. The most popular name is Darth Vader (37,000 hits in Google Books), but this is never used in Episode 2. Suppose it is decided that the articles are not split, is there any chance that Darth Vader can refer to the character in Episode 2? No. This means only "Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader", the least popular name can be the name of the character in the saga. Note that, WP:TITLE states that "The ideal title for an article will also satisfy the other criteria outlined above; ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more common". Indeed, Darth Vader is clearly inaccurate for Episode 1 and 2 (and using Anakin for an article on Episode 1 or 2 is NOT a "in-universe style"), hence it is also not accurate for the saga. Then, the least common name is the only alternative for the character if the articles are not split. Kavas (talk) 14:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

• WP:TITLE: "An article can only have one title". WP:NPOV: "A Wikipedia article must have one definitive name... Article names including alternatives are discouraged, examples of such names are: Derry/Londonderry, Aluminium/Aluminum, and Flat Earth (Round Earth)". I'm not going to argue these points with you because they're there in black and white. Of course, that doesn't mean that you can't have such a title if exceptional circumstances demand it, but I don't think that this is such a situation. I commented on Imia/Kardak above; The Mutant Agenda/Mutant's Revenge is about two cartoon epidodes with different titles -- there is no alternative title, and perhaps the article should be split. Your Google Books links do not change the fact that "Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader" is not the common name for this character. If anything, your arguments support the idea that what we need here are two seperate articles: one for Darth Vader as portrayed in the original trilogy, and one for Anakin Skywalker as portrayed in the prequel trilogy. PC78 (talk) 15:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
  • WP:TITLE: "An article can only have one title. When this title is a name, significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph (see Lead section)." However, if this double name is really in use in books or practical life, this means article's title should be a double name. See Disentis/Mustér, Sils im Engadin/Segl, Biel/Bienne, Imia/Kardak. That does not mean the title of Geneva article should be Geneva/Genf by using alternative names, because Geneva/Genf is not in use. "These may include alternative spellings, longer or shorter forms, historical names, significant names in other languages, etc" In the list, fictional characters with alternative names is not listed. Sorry for the repeat, these links show that "Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader" is in use, not that it's the most common name. Kavas (talk) 11:54, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

1. "http://books.google.com/books?id=PB57P_dOF7EC&pg=PA62&dq=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&hl=en&ei=gqZ_TNrZAdmQ4gaH-vjxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22anakin%20skywalker%2Fdarth%20vader%22&f=false
2. " http://books.google.com/books?id=PB57P_dOF7EC&pg=PA62&dq=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&hl=en&ei=gqZ_TNrZAdmQ4gaH-vjxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22anakin%20skywalker%2Fdarth%20vader%22&f=false
3. " http://books.google.com/books?id=npIsZV7grboC&pg=PA218&dq=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&hl=en&ei=gqZ_TNrZAdmQ4gaH-vjxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22anakin%20skywalker%2Fdarth%20vader%22&f=false
4. "http://books.google.com/books?id=pY6GAAAAIAAJ&q=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&dq=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&hl=en&ei=gqZ_TNrZAdmQ4gaH-vjxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ
5. "http://books.google.com/books?id=gJ98yvAmxM0C&pg=PA25&dq=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&hl=en&ei=gqZ_TNrZAdmQ4gaH-vjxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEsQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22anakin%20skywalker%2Fdarth%20vader%22&f=false
6. "http://books.google.com/books?id=ePbQbDbg9hkC&pg=PA115&dq=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&hl=en&ei=gqZ_TNrZAdmQ4gaH-vjxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFEQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=%22anakin%20skywalker%2Fdarth%20vader%22&f=false
7. "http://books.google.com/books?id=5cFZAAAAMAAJ&q=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&dq=%22anakin+skywalker/darth+vader%22&hl=en&ei=S6d_TM-eFZWG4QbTyNHTCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCQQ6AEwADgK

• Comment WP:NPOV: "A Wikipedia article must have one definitive name... Article names including alternatives are discouraged, examples of such names are: Derry/Londonderry, Aluminium/Aluminum, and Flat Earth (Round Earth)". Does WP:NPOV apply to a fictional character? Using alternative names is discouraged in the context of WP:NPOV. If Derry/Londonderry was the official name, then the article's title would be this like Biel/Bienne. The idea in using alternative names like Derry/Londonderry is that one would think Derry is a nationalist POV, Londonderry is a nationalist POV, Derry/Londonderry is a NPOV name. This idea is discouraged, "Alternative article names should not be used as means of settling POV disputes among Wikipedia contributors". Note that both Derry and Londonderry are correct names, you can use the common one. Alternative names as in the Aluminium/Aluminum example shows that using names in different languages is also discouraged. This does not apply to this article, unless it was an article in the context of WP:NPOV, such that Republicans would favor Anakin and monarchists would favor Darth Vader. Even if the rule applies to all articles, Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is indeed a name in use, it could be a title. Since other names like Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker do not apply to certain episodes (for example the character is never called Darth Vader in Episode 2), the suitable title can be Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. Kavas (talk) 11:54, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
  • You admit that "Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader" is a name by writing that it is not the common name for this character. This is correct. If "Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader" was the most common name, there would be no debate. Yes, Darth Vader is the most common name, but it is not used in Episodes 1 and 2. What is the name of the character Hayden Christiansen played in Episode 3? Is it Darth Vader? It is "Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader". Thank you. Kavas (talk) 11:54, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
    • It could be said that this character does not have a individual name either. Why do you think it was so debatable it is for what this character's name should be in this article or wether to merge or unmerge. Anakin Skywalker is the name when he was the hero and Darth Vader is the name of the villain. Nothing helps us know what's his individual name is. There is two seperate aliases sort of like a split personality of two different characters in one. The only thing that helps us is that we know that Darth Vader is the more well known alias. But at the same time the movie proved that Anakin is more of his true identity. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 18:03, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
      • So you both admit that Darth Vader is the most common name for this character? It seems then that we are all in agreement here. Your in-universe arguments don't really hold much weight. What's important is which name is better established in the real world, which name the average reader—not the average fanboy—will be looking for, and that is quite clearly Darth Vader. PC78 (talk) 11:30, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
        • I wouln't say Darth Vader is the common name anymore. So far in his adaptions he has kept on being used as Anakin Skywalker so that can change really easy in the future. And please I never argued, I just explained. I hardly agree with changing it to the slash name either. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 17:56, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose because as I recall Darth Vader claims to be Anakin Skywalker and this claim occurs late in the series. Putting this in the article title amounts to a spoiler. 64.105.65.28 (talk) 03:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
  • There are lots of good reasons to oppose a title change, but "it's a spoiler" really isn't one of them. --EEMIV (talk) 11:51, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
    • Agreed. See WP:Spoiler. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 17:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. Per WP:TITLE and WP:UCN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jgp (talk • contribs)
• Oppose per many of the comments above. Darth Vader is the character who's ingrained in popular culture. Anakin Skywalker is his original name, but that was the name from "before he was famous". I'm probably not explaining myself very well, but I definitely believe that Darth Vader is the correct name for the article. -- WORMMЯOW  13:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Then, Darth Vader is a name of the character in Episode 2? Kavas (talk) 11:54, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment The alias Anakin Skywalker is used in Episode 1, 2 and 3 and at the end of 6 and in The Clone Wars movie and television series. Darth Vader is used in the episodes at the end of episode 3 and in the episodes 4,5,6. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 18:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - I can think of two examples right now: Lord Voldemort (real/original name "Tom Riddle") or Sailor Moon (character) (real/original name "Usagi Tsukino"). Though Anakin Skywalker is notable, I think that Darth Vader, which is the first portrayal of the character, and even more notable, is the correct name of the article. --LoЯd ۞pεth 05:39, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose- The proposal is awkward, and more people will reconize "Darth Vader" than "Anakin Skywalker", mainly people who aren't necessarily Star Wars fans, but may find an outside reference to it.Squad51 (talk) 17:18, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Possible page move mess

I wasn't present for any of the above, but was the intention for the previous page history of Darth Vader to reside at the redirect titled Anakin Skywalker?

If not (and I doubt it was), this probably needs to be fixed. Though I'm not sure if I should go with a partial history merge, to move each history under the name it formerly resided at (Anakin page history at the Anakin redirect, previous Darth page history (and subsequent) here), or if (since this has come up more than once, creating several mixed merged in the past) just to history merge everything here.

Suggestions welcome. - jc37 21:37, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

See #Requested move 1. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 14:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

• I believe the mess is all sorted. –xeno^talk 13:52, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

• Thank you! --EEMIV (talk) 14:55, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Yeah good job. That looked like a lot of work. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 15:01, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

After I wrapped my head around the confusing history (not only caused by the recent move, but also some pagemove archiving of Anakin Skywalker and some manual merging and consolodation of Darth Vader archives in 2009), it wasn't that bad. =) –xeno^talk 15:07, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Redo

Right idea, wrong way. Might I suggest the redirect be the other way around, especially since he dies as Anakin at the end of Return of the Jedi? 74.78.89.243 (talk) 15:20, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Consensus is to do it this way. We can reevaluate ... later. --EEMIV (talk) 15:36, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay. 74.78.89.243 (talk) 18:33, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Anakin\Vader

When Ben was telling Luke about his father, he got something wrong, he said Anakin was "Darth Vader"'s master, half right. Darth Vader is Anakin, just not his master. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.25.46.229 (talk) 21:27, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

He never said anything of the sort. Powers ^T 01:47, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if I am posting under the wrong topic...not sure how to post a completely new section. The BPD diagnosis has been disputed, see here http://darthvaderbpd.com/ and especially the link to the Randi Kreger blog at PsychologyToday.com . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.4.19.137 (talk) 01:44, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Interestings!!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.145.218 (talk) 22:04, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Dutch Origin

Seems like it should be mentioned that the word "vader" means, in Dutch, "father". ironmagma (talk) 07:59, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I think that would be considered trivia.--76.66.180.54 (talk) 04:01, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Still it should be added, as well as other trivia which this page is lacking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.12.183.130 (talk) 12:33, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Disagree, Wikipedia has guidelines against against excessive trivia and this is excessive. The only way I could possibly see this being added would be if the writers stated that they used the dutch term for father in selecting the name as a hint that Vader was Luke's father. So far nothing to that effect has been stated.--174.93.167.177 (talk) 07:04, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Anakin as protagonist or antagonist

I have just stumbled upon this article and discovered that the authors, for whatever reason, have decided to depict Anakin Skywalker as "the chief antagonist in the original trilogy and one of the main protagonists in the prequel films". Having skimmed down the discussion page it appears that I am not alone in thinking that this is a very dogmatic and short-sighted presumption on which to base a description of the complex character of Anakin Skywalker (and while we're at it, I don't particularly think "Darth Vader" should be the name of this article). Allow me to argue why this assertion is not the undeniable truth that the introduction suggests it is.

Firstly, it doesn't make an awful lot of artistic sense. The whole idea of a protagonist who suddenly becomes an antagonist half way through the saga, and remember this is saga and not two seperate stories, wold probably be unprecedented. I suppose you could cite Heathcliff of Wuthering Heights as an example to the contrary,but even here, as you will see from the respective article, he is described as a "byronic hero" rather than an antagonist".

Secondly, it doesn't really match the overall plot of the saga. After all, the prophesy of Anakin as chosen one is not really disproved once he joins the dark side, since, as we all know, it is he who finally defeats the dark forces of the sith by betraying Darth Sidious in the last moments of Return of the Jedi, not Luke, who is brought to his knees by the Emperor and is only saved by Darth Vader's profound human pity. In the last moments of the film Vader, or rather Anakin, tells Luke "you were right" for believing, unlike the sceptical Obi-Wan and Yoda, that Vader has good in him. How can a man who overthrows the Sith and brngs balance to the force be the antagonist?

Surely the chief antagonist is the Emperor? He is by far the most powerful force of evil throughout the saga, prequel and original. In the original series, it is he who gives orders and Vader who transfers them to below. It is he who, having betrayed Vader, calls for Luke to kill him and become his new apprentice, just as he does again and again in the prequel trilogy. His death marks the end of the oppressive reign of the Sith, but the death of Vader alone would have no influence whatsoever on the oppressive power of the Emperor.

It would surely be much better to describe Anakin / Vader as a protagonist with a number of fatal flaws. Yes, he does terrible things, but he doesn't truly do them out of malignancy as any genuine antagonist would. As one of the apologists for referring to Anakin as an antagonist pointed out, George Lucas himself seems to agree with me. I'm not suggesting we simply label Anakin / Vader as the protagonist and be done with it, but I think for a character like this we should respect the various interpretations available, including the interpretation of those who made it. --86.185.204.137 (talk) 21:02, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

The big problem there is that his past history was not known when the first films were made since they took place after the events of the 4-6th films. He was clearly not being protrayed as a protagonist in the earlier films. Also is must be remembered that the term antagonist does not mean being a villain but a person/thing etc that stands in opposition of the primary hero and for the vast majority of the original trilogy Vader was clearly in opposition to Luke's goals. Granted he did change sides in the end but by that logic we could also say he was an antagonist in the second trilogy because he joined the dark side at the end of the third film but I don't see anyone making that argument.--76.66.188.209 (talk) 18:57, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

To sum it up, Darth Vader is one of the two primary antagonists in Episode IV and is THE main antagonist in episode V while being a secondary antagonist in Episode IV until the very end of the movie. Over all he is designed as the central/most recurring antagonist in the whole original series. Anakin seems to portrayed one of two of the deuteragonists in Episode I while being one of the two protagonists in Episode II, same at first in Episode III until he is revealed to be a false protagonist and switched to be one of the primary antagonists at the very end (which is to be expected). Over all he (along with Obi-Wan) is the central character/protagonist (even though he turned bad if you count all the three movies he is still a protagonist or false protagonist, protagonist doesn't always mean good guy) in the prequel trilogy. And is one of the (if not the one) most central character in all of the films (and just being just one of many if you count expanded universe). For the name of the article Darth Vader is a more common name of the character, in-universe perspective states that he is truly Anakin over Vader (that's why Wookieepedia has that name) but when it comes to an outside universe perspective Anakin started out being well known as Darth Vader more than anything and still (even though he is used less in Star Wars media currently because of the Clone Wars project) outside of Star Wars media Darth Vader is the alias that mostly going to be parodied/mentioned of popular culture. I hope I helped. Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 00:47, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Missing French link

The Languages section of the page is missing a French (Français) link to http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Vador. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.14.228.137 (talk) 13:59, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

•  Done Drmies (talk) 21:08, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Lord Vader

Would anyone mind if I added that Darth Vader is sometimes called "Lord Vader" in the original trilogy? Woknam66 ^talk _{James Bond} 22:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

No problem.This should come in a trivia section, along with the dutch origin of the name. If no one else does it or has a problem, then i will add that section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.12.183.130 (talk) 12:35, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Chad Vader Reference?

Should we add an inter-wiki link to Chad Vader: Day Shift Manager? And where would be the best place? I would't go so far as to call it a relevant Cultural impact - but it's either there, or under "See also". --79.194.8.188 (talk) 20:36, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Definitely not significant enough to warrant being mentioned in the "See also" section; "Cultural impact" would be the ideal place to put it. Perhaps a quick mention in the paragraph that starts with "Many films and television series have paid homage to Darth Vader"? EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:00, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I've just noticed IPs are not allowed to edit. Sorry. Would you like the honor?

91.22.164.245 (talk) 02:08, 3 February 2012 (UTC) (Same guy, different IP)

Nooooooo!

Should the "Noooooo!" internet meme be noted here? Its quite popular among the internet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.60.243.144 (talk) 01:05, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Doctor Doom

I've read here: http://comics.ign.com/top-100-villains/3.html that Doctor Doom is one of the inspirations for Darth Vader. If true, may it be added? michel_sharp (talk) 21:55, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

As i've said above, this page desparately needs a trivia section for that kind of stuff--212.12.183.130 (talk) 12:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

That would not be necessary, since if that can be shown to be true it should be added to the relevant Concept and creation section not a separate trivia section.--174.93.160.57 (talk) 20:18, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Main protagonist

Isn't the main protagonist Luke Skywalker in the trilogy? Morgan Katarn (talk) 10:58, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

• In the original trilogy yes Luke is the main protagonist. ♥ Solarra ♥ ^{♪ Talk ♪} ߷ _{♀ Contribs ♀} 11:01, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Lede

The lede section has grown bloated with plot detail, esp. the third and fourth paragraphs. I'm stepping out the door -- anyone watchlisting this article want to take a whack at trimming the lede to what's appropriate? --EEMIV (talk) 15:21, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 21 November 2012

The image Sebastian_Shaw_as_Anakin_Skywalker.jpg was removed from the article on August 25 for no apparent reason (or possibly vandalism --the edit was made by a sock puppet). I request it to be readded to the article. 200.92.16.206 (talk) 00:13, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

 Not done. The image was removed because it didn't have a valid fair use tag for this article. If you want it added, go add a fair use tag for this article first. gwickwire | Leave a message 00:34, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit Request

I believe it would help to have the image File:Anakin_Skywalker.png next to the "Portrayals" section. It serves to identify each of the actors that have played Anakin/Vader in the movies, including Shaw, who is presently not shown (issue addressed in previous edit request) 65.33.107.187 (talk) 00:02, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I neglected to mention that this is time sensitive; the image will be deleted soon if not readded to this article. 65.33.107.187 (talk) 00:11, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done -- Dianna (talk) 03:28, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Article Title

Should this article be renamed to "Anakin Skywalker" rather than "Darth Vader"? WP articles speak of fictional characters as if all events happened in the past, and chronologically, as shown in Return of the Jedi, the character died as Anakin after being redeemed, not as Vader. Thoughts? 134340Goat (talk) 04:24, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

This has, I am certain, been discussed to death in the past. The issues of the article's name revolves primarily around the fact that "Darth Vader" is a much more well known and commented upon character than "Anakin Skywalker", and so the one more likely for the, erm, uninformed (?) to search for. --Jasca Ducato (talk) 09:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

The phrase "Darth Vader" could easily redirect to this if we were to retitle it. 134340Goat (talk) 19:33, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

The talk page (& archives) here and at the Star Wars wikiproject have repeatedly delved into this discussion. The local consensus is for this article to be titled "Darth Vader," as that is the most culturally-recognized and -relevant label for this character. "Anakin Skywalker" might be a more appropriate title from an in-universe perspective (or maybe not), but that isn't the perspective Wikipedia adopts. --EEMIV (talk) 21:27, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Goat, you are correct your statement that "Darth Vader" could easily be a redirect, but that isn't the point. As EEMIV and I have stated, the general consensus is to have the article in it's current namespace. --Jasca Ducato (talk) 13:37, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I can see the reasoning behind it. Very well then, let this be the example for the next person that asks this question :P 134340Goat (talk) 20:06, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Phrasing connoting poor portrayal of borderline personality disorder

"Darth Vader's iconic status has made the character a synonym for evil in popular culture; psychiatrists have even considered him as a useful example to explain borderline personality disorder to medical students."

I feel the semicolon separation and close tie between these two independent clauses can lead one to make the association between 'synonym for evil' and 'borderline personality disorder' rather than the intended association of both with Vader's iconic status. Suggest slight rephrasing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.137.156.28 (talk) 00:50, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Hebrew Letters

I believe the famous translation of "his deeds... etc" is incorrect. I gathered more information about the subject on my blog here: http://aboutsalama.blogspot.com/2013/06/darth-vaders-jewish-origin-golem-of.html I'll be happy to discuss any unclear details. Mando Salama (talk) 13:29, 22 June 2013 (UTC)