Talk:Eric Lerner: Difference between revisions

NPOV

The ideas which Lerner espouses are generally regarded as so outlandish by mainstream physicists that he is essentially ignored in that community.

Prove it.

-- Deleted it, it's completely unncessary in a discussion of his credentials (as the article now stands).

No actually its a perfectly necessary and relevant little tidbit when talking about (Personal attack removed) Lerner.--Deglr6328 21:42, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

gee, I thought there was some rule on wiki about personal attacks, but I gues thsi does not qualify , huh?Elerner 03:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree - I used Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks. Art LaPella 21:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. While it is true that in the previous (now removed) comment by me I did in fact refer to Eric Lerner, the subject of this page as "a fucking nutter", my comment expressed my opinion about this page's subject and NOT another editor on wikipedia. In fact Eric Lerner's first edit to wikipedia under the name Elerner would not occur until 4 days after I made the comment and therefore my comment did not in fact constitute a personal attack on another editor since he was not even present or editing Wikipedia at the time. I am fully aware of the personal attack rule on wiki and would not have made the comment if he had been present at the time of my post. --Deglr6328 01:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you think it would be ok to say on a talk page of an article about a living person that they are suspected of being involved in JFK's assasination? The talkpages are published and one should be careful with accusations, libel, and generally poisoning the atmosphere. Not to mention the idea that the subject of a biography can be expected to show up sooner or later. Civility is not about talking behind people's back then saying "sorry I didn't know you were listening". WAS 4.250 01:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, in fact I do think it would be perfectly ok since talk pages are for expressing uncensored thoughts concerning the subject at hand and are not meant to be part of the actual article for precisely that reason. Anyway, I'll thank you for not putting words in my mouth, who said I was sorry? The only reason I would not have used the terms I did on the 5th of Nov. '05 if I knew Lerner were present would be to NOT violate the no personal attack rule. --Deglr6328 02:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

No actually its a unnecessary and irrelevant little tidbit ... except to express a stance of hostility and intolerance ... and your comments "total f***ing nutter" exposes your POV (something that I hope you don't edit into articles). Sincerely, JDR 19:28, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I think Lerner doesn't do himself any favors in the way he goes about things but I don't think he's a total nutter. His fusion technology is unproven, I know nothing about plasma so I'm not going to jump to conclusions (and that would be nonNPOV) so let's see what happens with that. Anyway you're probably calling him a nutter because of his BigBang views. I've noticed some people get very heated when the BigBang is questioned. I personally know cosmologists and they are quite open to discuss alternative models, so why Wikipedians and Slashdotters get so worked up is a mystery to me. Trious 00:29, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Most scientists are quite open ... it's the "fundementalist" that you have to worry about. Sincerely, JDR

Well, the hydrogen+boron combination is certainly a genuine fusion reaction, so in that respect Lerner is not a "total ****ing nutter". Neither is the 1 billion+ degree temperature achieved using DPF a mirage. As for his ideas about field confinement, well we will have to leave that to the plasma physicists to sort out. Suffice to say I am not about to condemn a bloke who is trying to bring about cheap, plentiful and environmentally-friendly energy for all.User: Anonym

http://photoman.bizland.com/lpp/eric_j_lerner.htm

President, Lawrenceville Plasma Physics,Inc. advanced technology research, consulting and communications firm.

Scientific research in plasma physics and desalination

Development of fusion energy and x-ray sources based on the dense plasma focus Originated plasma-based theories of quasars, large-scale structure and other phenomena of the Universe Author of "The Big Bang Never Happened" Development of Atomizing Desalination Process Writing and editing on high technology

Over 600 articles published

RESEARCH

1995-Present

Designed experiment to test hypothesis that Dense Plasma Focus could achieve temperatures needed for proton-boron fusion. Developed theoretical model, designed electrodes, designed diagnostic equipment, including x-ray detector and filters, Rogowski coil. Actively participated in experiment including selection of experimental parameters, construction of heating apparatus for decaborane functioning. Analyzed resulting data. Demonstrated achievement of 200keV energies. Developed theory of magnetic effects that show feasibility of proton-boron fusion. Work to develop intense x-ray source for infrastructure inspection. Continued development of plasma cosmology theories.

1992-1995

Designed experiment to test theory of heating in DPF. Designed electrodes, experimental plan, participated in carrying out experiment, analyzed data.

1986- 1991

Developed an original theory of quasars based on extrapolation from laboratory-scale plasma instabilities in the dense plasma focus. Developed detailed theory of function of DPF. Proposed a theory of the origin of the large scale structure of the universe, also from plasma instability theory and the role of force free fila­ments. This theory led to the prediction of supercluster complexes, shortly before their discovery by R. Brent Tully. Developed an original theory of the microwave background and the origin of light elements, accounting for both without need for a Big Bang. The microwave theory led to the prediction that there is absorp­tion of RF radia­tion by the intergalactic medium, a prediction confirmed by observation in 1990.

BOOK

The Big Bang Never Happened, Random House/Times Books, 1991.

ORIGINAL SCIENTIFIC PAPERS

Two World Systems Revisited: A Comparison of Plasma Cosmology and the Big Bang(to be published in IEEE Trans. On Plasma Sci.)

Prospects for p11B fusion with the Dense Plasma Focus : New Results (To be published in the Proceedings of the Fifth Symposium on Current Trends in International Fusion Research), 2002

Lerner, E.J., Peratt, A.L., Final Report, Jet Propulsion Laboratory contract 959962, 1995 (1995). "Intergalactic Radio Absorption and the COBE Data", Astrophysics and Space Science, Vol.227, May, 1995, p.61-81 "On the Problem of Big Bang Nucleosynthesis", Astrophysics and Space Science, Vol.227, May, 1995 p.145-149 "The Case Against the Big Bang" in Progress in New Cosmologies, Halton C. Arp et al, eds., Plenum Press (New York), 1993

"Confirmation of Radio Absorption by the Intergalactic Medium", Astrophysics and Space Science, Vol 207,1993 p.17-26.

"Force-Free Magnetic Filaments and the Cosmic Background Radiation", IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Vol.20, no. 6, Dec. 1992, pp. 935-938.

"Radio Absorption by the Intergalactic Medium," The Astro­physical Journal, Vol. 361, Sept. 20, 1990, pp. 63-68.

"Prediction of the Submillimeter Spectrum of the Cosmic Back­ground Radiation by a Plasma Model," IEEE Trans­actions on Plasma Science, Vol. 18, No. 1, Feb. 1990, pp. 43-48.

"Galactic Model of Element Formation," IEEE Transac­tions on Plasma Science, Vol. 17, No. 3, April 1989, pp. 259-263.

"Plasma Model of the Microwave Background," Laser and Particle Beams, Vol. 6, (1988), pp. 456-469.

"Magnetic Vortex Filaments, Universal Invariants and the Fundamental Constants," IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Special Issue on Cosmic Plasma, Vol. PS-14, No. 6, Dec. 1986, pp. 690-702.

"Magnetic Self-Compression in Laboratory Plasma, Quasars and Radio Galaxies," Laser and Particle Beams, Vol. 4, Pt. 2, (1986), pp. 193-222.

PATENT

Atomizing Desalination Process (US. Pat 5,207,928)

AWARDS

Aviation Space Writers Association 1993 Award of Excellence in Journalism: Trade Magazines/Space for "GOES NEXT Goes Astray" Aerospace America, May 1992.

Society for Technical Communication 1992 Award of Distinction: "Technology is Teaming", Bellcore Insight, Summer, 1991.

Aviation Space Writers Association 1990 Award of Excellence in Journalism: Special Interest/Trade Magazine Category for "Lessons of Flight 665," Aero­space America, April, 1989.

Aviation Space Writers Association 1990 Journalism Award, North East Region: Special Interest/Space Magazine Category for "Galileo's Tortuous Journey to Jupiter," Aerospace America, August, 1989.

Aviation Space Writers Association 1988 National Journalism Award: Special Interest/Space Magazine Category for "FAA: An Agency Besieged", Aerospace America, February-April, 1987.

Aviation Space Writers Association 1985 Journalism Award, North East Region: Special Interest/Space Magazine Category for "SDI Series", Aerospace America, August-November, 1985.

Aviation Space Writers Association 1984 Journalism Award Northeast Region: Special Interest/Space Magazine Category for "Mushrooming Vulnerability to EMP", Aerospace America, August 1984.

PROFESSIONAL SOCIETIES

IEEE, the American Physical Society and American Astronomical Society.

Basic biographical information

What academic degree does Lerner hold? From what university? In what subject? At what universities or national labs has he held full-time academic employment? Where is he currently employed? --Art Carlson 20:39, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

What academic degree does Lerner hold? From what university? In what subject? At what universities or national labs has he held full-time academic employment? ... Appeal to academia, tsk tsk .... to wit, I ask ... what academic degree before does Heaviside hold (before 1890s that is ...)? From what university? In what subject? At what universities or national labs had Heaviside held full-time academic employment? ... this is plainly an attempt to take a snipe at Lerner.

Where is he currently employed? Read the bio link ... appearantly you didn't ....

Sincerely, JDR 22:03, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Are you saying that he doesn't have any academic degree, from any university, and has never worked for any university? You seem to think that that is a point in his favor. Shouldn't we report that then? --Art Carlson 22:39, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I think you miss the point ... not only those individuals who have engaged in scholarship are deemed to have anything worthwhile to say, or do.

He may have an academic degree, from a university, and may have worked for a university ... but IF he didn't, that doesn't mean his research is any less valuable.

Get a reference Art and then report it.

Sincerely, JDR 15:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Reddi added that he didn't get a degree, not having done the course work. That was completely unsourced, and its really not clear how it could be sourced (pers comm?). Please indicate source if you want it re-entered. Its not in his biog, that I can see. I added some stuff from his biog.

As for "leading" critic of the big bang... I doubt this. Certainly not supported by his publication record, which is slight. William M. Connolley 18:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC).

How much of this is real?

Lawrenceville Plasma Physics
and
Focus Fusion Society
11 Calvin Terrace
West Orange, NJ 07052

is located in a residential district on the border of West Orange and Montclair, at the foot of Eagle Rock Reservation. Ten years ago, I walked all around that area. The adress is probably someone's residence. At best, an office. Do these companies exixt only on paper? With no actual current funding aren't they just venture-funding-bait? Shouldn't this article be deleted? Or at least remove what can't be verified as more than just what people are saying about themselves? The more I look into this , the more the whole thing looks fishy. WAS 4.250 19:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Sterling D. Allan appears to be promoting him. Google and see what I mean. Maybe this does deserve to be an article ... but a quite different one. WAS 4.250 19:52, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

As near as I can tell everything personal we have is what he, his "companies", and Allan say about him and his "companies". How much is verifyable? Are these considered useable sources? If so why? WAS 4.250 20:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

My, I do seem to get some people upset. Art Carslon, in particular, seems to have nothing better to do with his time than follow me from Wiki page to Wiki page--see "aneutronic fusion" and "plasma cosmology" and I am sure there must be others. I seem to be an obsession of his. Hate to toot my own horn, but I do need to correct those who say no one takes my work seriously. Generally, invitations to present your work at prestigious institutions, getting it reported in the scientific press, etc. is considered evidence that the work is taken seriously. (not of course that it is correct.)Elerner 03:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Stop editing your own page using IP sock puppets.--Deglr6328 05:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

What an ego! I'm a professional plasma physicist who worked for many years in fusion and now works in cosmology. Where should I feel more at home than editing these articles, as I have been doing long before Eric Lerner showed up? Who's following whom around? --Art Carlson 08:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think we need to continue with Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Elerner. Include the new problems and make the page active on the list of current User-RfCs. --ScienceApologist 16:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Deglr6328,

• Changing Eric's status from "plasma physicist" and "plasma cosmologist" to "associated with plasma physics and plasma cosmology", is somewhat insulting. As a peer-reviewed author of nearly 50 articles, on subjects from cosmology to plasma phsysics, it is pretty clear, and verifiable that he is more than "associated" with the subjects. Alfvén trained as an engineer, but won the Nobel Prize for (plasma) physics... I guess he was just associated with plasma physic too?
• And as for designating his theories as "pseudoscience", I'm sure you'll have no problems finding a verifiable peer-reviewed citation... that's one of the factors that distinguishes science from pseudoscience --Iantresman 20:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not terribly concerned with how "insulting" it may seem not to refer to him directly as a physicist. The terms physicist and scientist are used most aptly (and frequently) by people to describe themselves when they actually have a PhD. i don't quite know what you're rambling on about with regard to pseudoscience and citations either. Lerner's plasma cosmology/anti-big bang/focus fusion theories are widely regarded as pseudoscientific. end of story. there is no real debate among scientists regarding those subjects.--Deglr6328 20:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• Since when is a Ph.D a requirement for scientist status? This is elitist garbage. The Wiki article on "Scientist" doesn't mention Ph.D. once.
• If there is no debate regarding Lerner's work as pseudoscience, then you'll have no problems finding a verifiable peer-reviewed citation. Otherwise it is hearsay. --Iantresman 23:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Like I said, I'm not wasting my time with you debating whether or not plasma cosmology and wacky big bang denialism constitute pseudoscience.--Deglr6328 05:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

• I'm not asking you to debate it, as I am sure neither one of us cares what the other one has to say. I'm asking you to substantiate YOUR statement that Lerner's material is pseudoscience, which should be easy to provide a verifiable citation if you are right.
• Deglr6328, there is no doubt that Lerner's theories are not accepted by the vast majority of scientists. I doubt whether the vast majority of scientists have even read it. Of those scientists that have read it, very few (if any) have submitted their criticisms to peer-review. None of this implies that Lerner's work is pseudoscience. Just like the Big Bang, Lerner's work may turn out to be wrong. Again, this means that the scientific method has done its job, but it does not imply pseudoscience. --Iantresman 09:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

How difficult is this for you to understand? incredibly, apparently. The sentance "Lerner's theories are mostly regarded as pseudoscience by the mainstream physics community." does NOT state "lerner's theories are pseudoscience" it DOES state that the vast majority of scientists think this is the case however. There is a difference and the completely factual note will stay. --Deglr6328 01:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Forgot to sign in, sorry--I made the last edit to the page.

Deglr, whoever you are, it is purely your personal, unsourced, opinion that "Lerner's theories are mostly regarded as pseudoscience by the mainstream physics community." It is that opinion of your that keeps getting deleted, as do the phrases and words that imply that various criticisms are fact. Just curious, but if what you said was true, how do you think I would get my stuff published in peer-reviewed journals, get invited to give presentations at various conferences and research instituions and get funded by various governments?Elerner 02:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The sentance refers to your preoccupation with theories such as plasma coslmology and anti-big bang fringe theories. It is not my opinion alone that these theories are pseudoscientific. That is a widely held belief among scientists and it is a statement which needs to be in the article. --Deglr6328 07:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Let me remind you that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". So in talking about what should be in the article we should focus on what we can verify through reliable sources. But that aside, I honestly don't believe you. I agree that the mainstream community, largely, rejects Lerner's theory, and that some have criticized points in it. Generally speaking, scientists have not built on his work. However, the term "pseudoscience" is a lot more critical of the work than this. A real example of pseudoscience is creation science: that is, pretending that creationism is based on science rather than religion. For instance, I don't think Edward Wright thinks Lerner's work is pseudoscience (that is, that it's a disingenuous attempt at science), rather, he just thinks it's wrong. From Wright's tone, I get the feeling he thinks Lerner isn't a very good scientist and that his theories aren't good science, but "pseudoscience" goes a lot farther than that. And in any case, he's just one guy. Mangojuice^talk 13:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I should probably steer clear of this subject, but .... I tend to agree with Mango. I think it is important to characterize the degree of Lerner's acceptance in the scientific community, but that is very hard to do in an objective way. I also think the term "pseudoscience" is so vague as to be practically useless and also practically impossible to define objectively. I'm not sure there is a clear difference between bad science and pseudoscience, but if forced to choose, I would call Lerner's work simply bad science. Can't we quote a few judgements from prominent (mainstream) scientists and leave it at that? --Art Carlson 14:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• As I suggested before, however we characterise Lerner's work, (a) it should be verifiable (b) attributable (c) should not infer this is the voice of "the scientific community".
• I can find published and peer reviewed criticism of, for example, the Big Bang without any problems.[1] So if "the scientific community" are equally critical of Lerner's work, it shouldn't be too difficult to find peer reviewed criticism. --Iantresman 14:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the template at the top of this page to "Biographies of living persons" which is a Wikipedia policy page, which reminds us that "Editors should remove any unsourced or poorly sourced negative material from biographies of living persons and their talk pages, and may do so without discussion; .. The burden of evidence lies with the editor who has made the edit in question" --Iantresman 17:30, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

ScienceApologist, I've never seen such bias in my life, your edits disgust me, and you have sunk to a new low. How can you remove verifiable quotes to publications such as the Chicago Tribune, while retaining criticism such as Wright's that has never appeared any publication whatsoever, and then have the audacity to remove the link to Lerner's own rebuttal. DIGUSTING. --Iantresman 18:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Chicago Tribune? What gives the Chicago tribune any weight in evaluating what anyone says about cosmology? Ned Wright is a respected astronomer whose website stands along with Gene Smith's as one of the most trusted and oldest web-based sources of cosmology information available. Just because something appears in print doesn't make it better. Evaulating sources themselves is important. Ned Wright is a notable figure in astronomy and cosmology. The Chicago Tribune is not. Rebuttals don't belong in a criticism section. If Lerner can stand up for himself, then report on it in the section that describes Lerner's work. --ScienceApologist 18:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

HYPOCRITIC. That's rich coming from someone using a creationist Web sites as source.[2] And when will you learn the definition of POV pushing. Presenting points of view neutrally is not POV pushing. --Iantresman 18:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

For that matter what give YOU any authority in evaluting (a) anything on cosmologu (b) anything that the Chicago Tribune has to say. YOU are unverifiable. The Chicago Tribune stands on its reputation, and is verifiable. --Iantresman 18:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Careful, Ian. You're bordering on personal attacks. Take a breather. We're all editors here trying our best to make editorial decisions. --ScienceApologist 18:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Then learn the definition of POV pushing; removing ALL the positive criticism while leaving just the negative criticism is POV pushing, not providing a BALANCE of VERIFIABLE views. --Iantresman 19:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I have restored ScienceApologist's HYPOCRTICAL removal of the link to Lerner's reply to Wright. If Wright's Web page is a good enough source (despite it not being peer reviewed) then so is Lerner's reply, and your one-sided editing still DISGUSTS me. --Iantresman 19:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I consider what you are doing to be POV pushing which "refers to the act (or attempt or intent) to evade, circumvent and undermine Wikipedia's neutrality policy". --ScienceApologist 19:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Lerner's response is included with the Wright criticism. --ScienceApologist 19:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Hypocritic! Demoting Lerner's repsonse to the small print in a footnote is not EQUALITY. Your bias is unbelievable. --Iantresman 19:17, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I've restored the Chicago Tribune quote, they're more notable and veriable than ScienceApologist. --Iantresman 19:20, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I've restored Lerner's status a plasma cosmologist, not "an advocate of plasma cosmology". You might as well have made him "an advocate of plasma physics". --Iantresman 19:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

We've had this argument before Ian. Plasma cosmologist is a neologism. Period. --ScienceApologist 20:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I restored the comment on Stenger's critism to put it into context. It is all verifiable, and you can provide any example to show that it is incorrect. But to give the impression that Stenger's critism's are conclusive is BIAS in the extreme --Iantresman 19:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I can understand Lerner not wanting his theories to be labeled as pseudoscience (obviously) and the concern Mango and Art voice about the word pseudoscience perhaps being too harsh is valid. However, its alternatives, which are equally true, that is that his theories are simply bad/wrong/crazy are even more intrinsically biased and thus I did not use those. I feel what is hampering progress here is Ian's insistance on using peer-reviewed statements to corroborate the statement here that Lerner's theories are considered wrong/bad/pseudoscience. This is an absurd and disingenuous requirement because Ian knows damn well that no one will ever find such peer reviewed statements. Is this because scientists have no disagreement with Lerner's theories as Ian apparently presupposes must be the case? No. In fact it is the exact opposite which is true. Lerner's theories are considered so nutty and out of the mainstream that no legit scientist will waste his time refuting such blatantly obvious nonsense and submitting it for a peer-review. One quick look at his citation record shows that his papers are barely ever cited by others and when they are the majority of the time they are SELF-citations! The fact that mainstream scientists overwhlemingly believe Lerner's theories to be utterly worthless is not going to be found in any peer reviewed paper but can be found in several (some of which are already noted here) other non-peer reviewed verifiable statements. The reader of this article NEEDS to know how far out and disreputable Lerner's theories really are (widely) considered to be. --Deglr6328 19:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, and people need to be able to VERIFY what you suggest. From what I recall, one of the criticisms of pseudoscience is that results are not submitted to peer review. Lerner's done that, showing it is of sufficient standard to publish.
• I also recall that HUNDREDS of scientists and engineers are critical of the Big Bang,[3] (that's VERIFIABLE in a reputable publication), so presumably you'd insist that readers should know?
• I also checked your statement that "no legit scientist will waste his time refuting such blatantly obvious nonsense" which just goes to show that either you are wrong or Ned Wright is not legit? --Iantresman 20:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Nice try but I'm not getting dragged into that side debate with you. I know, I know, I need to EXPLICITLY spell things out for you lest you take and twist them around to some NEW absurdity; so the sentance should read, "what scientist would want to waste his time refuting such nonsense and taking the time and effort to submit it for peer review". The fact that you even think peer review would ever be used in such a way seems to betray a deep misunderstanding of how the process actually works. Most of the time, obviously wrong papers rife with bad science written by nobodies in a disreputable field are simply ignored. As such they probably should be.--Deglr6328 20:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• If you don't submit to peer review, it's pseudoscience. If you do, and it gets in, we won't bother to reply. And that's the scientific method? --Iantresman 20:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• I see that ScienceApologist has now resorted to providing critical quotes from personal Blogs.[4] Is that better than quoting from book reviews on Creationist Web sites?
• I am surprised that Lerner manages to get ANY work at all, and gets past so many peers with his articles. --Iantresman 20:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

That blog is written by an accredited physicist. That his ideas are expressed in blog venue is irrelevant.--Deglr6328 20:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

ScienceApologist remove one of my citations just two days ago [5] because it was not peer reviewed despite being written by accredited scientists, and has reminded me that as far as he is concerned, "Peer review != notability"[6]. But blogs are fine! Looks liked there is one standard for you guys, and another standard for the rest of us. --Iantresman 21:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Lerner doesn't get much academic work. He spends a lot of his time self-aggrandizing and trying to drum up private donations. His anti-establishment message does gain some traction with a certain set of idealogues, but you won't find him doing controversial things where it will get him into trouble. He won't, for example, present his plasma cosmology ideas at AAS nor does he try to drum up support for his fusion flights-of-fancy at IEEE meetings. That's just sort of his way, you see. --ScienceApologist 20:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Really? [7] [8] --Iantresman 21:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

1991 and 1992? Really au courant of you, Ian. --ScienceApologist 21:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Joshua--you're back from vacation! Or is this just another assignment from your graduate advisor? You evidently don't read the page you are editing, which contains my conferences in the past five years: the IEEE International Conference on Plasma Science, 2002: the American Physical Society, 2003 and the XI Latin American Workshop on Plasma Physics, 2005. Lerner was an invited speaker at both the Fifth (2003) and Sixth (2005) Symposia on Current Trends in International Fusion Research, which is sponsored by the UN’s International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). And of course there are my seminars on plasma cosmology during that same period at University of Pavia, Goddard Space Flight Center and European Southern Observatory. Also, I notice you are diligently gathering critiques of my book from scientists in the field. But on the plasma cosmology page, you insist that my work is ignored by scientists in the field. Which is it? Or does the truth not matter that much?Elerner 23:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• I've put in a request for Page Protection. And would suggest no further editing until we talk through our differences. --Iantresman 21:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
• And I will be away until Monday. --Iantresman 21:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Mangojuice mediation?

Mangojuice, I wonder whether you'd help us mediate this article. Unfortunately I'm away until Monday, but I'm sure Eric can hold his own until then. I would like to see some kind advice on what is considered a suitable source, peer reivew, newspapers, magazines, blogs? And advice on how to word certain phrases neutrally. --Iantresman 00:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's see, Joshua (science apologist) sees fit to remove nearly all the favorable comments on my book, even those from James van Allen, who might perhaps be considered an expert. Very neutral!Elerner 01:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Joshua is still reverting without justification. He is also is eliminating the fact that I was a visiting astronomer at ESO--this really seems to need censoring, huh, Joshua? Do you really think I would have been there without getting invited by the invitation committee? Why don't you do some actual work rather than trying to cover up mine? Oh right, I forgot, this is your class assignment.Elerner 03:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)