Talk:Europe of Sovereign Nations Group

Why is Republic Movement movement of Slovakia Listed as 1 MEP

I noticed that this page as well as many articles indicate that Republika only has 1 MEP. However, they won 2 in the 2024 EU Parliament elections. Is this possibly because of the expulsion of a member like in the case of AfD and Reconquete? OguHunter (talk) 18:15, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One of their MEPs (Milan Mazurek) was barred from joining because he denied the Holocaust in 2019. Let's not forget that these guys are a split from the openly neo-nazi L'SNS 31.22.201.205 (talk) 19:07, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

a secound AfD MEP (Petr Bystron) could also end up being expelled from ESN pending ongoing investigations that he took russian and chinese bribes. This would put pressure on them to get NIKI and SALF on board to avoid falling below the 23 MEPs threshold. 31.22.201.205 (talk) 19:14, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ideology

Okay what should the ideology of this group be?

I think for position far-right (alone) is pretty uncontroversial. Zlad! (talk) 20:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We should wait half a year at best, to make other additions to far-right or extreme right to the ideology, as we then have the knowledge of how they REALLY act DerEchteJoan (talk) 20:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed for the far-right descriptor, it is the most explicitly far-right group since the European Right (or the short-lived Identity, Tradition, Sovereignty). I’d just leave the ideology field blank to be honest; far-right is possibly an adequate and simple description.— Autospark (talk) 20:17, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The ideologies listed in the article are referenced and should remain as such. “Leaving for at least 6 months” “waiting to REALLY see” are not considerations as per the Edit Policy and would constitute WP:OR.

I see no reason to change the Ideology section. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 20:27, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would place the ideological descriptions (with references) in a separate Ideology section, to be honest.— Autospark (talk) 20:35, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a great Idea, as it does not overcrowd the box and explains these ideologies thoroughly DerEchteJoan (talk) 20:37, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sovereignistism should absolutely be included in the infobox, as it there are numerous third party sources, describing it that way. - FellowMellow (talk) 20:38, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The info box is a template and should be used as such to ensure consistency as per the WP:MOS, MOS:IBX. The info box headings should be used. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 20:40, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then for now, there shall be one Ideology and that is confirmed: Sovereigntism. Any other ideology should be discussed further in here if that is alright. DerEchteJoan (talk) 20:43, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And Hard Euroscepticism or just Euroscepticism, as all parties are that way. FellowMellow (talk) 20:45, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is one source for Sovereigntism. [1] - FellowMellow (talk) 20:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is an op-ed article, not a neutral news story, and honestly, I’m don’t think it is a reliable source in this particular case.— Autospark (talk) 15:04, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Russophilia is very common in the group. Mi Hazánk for example opposes any sanctions against Russia, wants closer economic cooperations with them, and has called upon Ukraine to give up territories and end the war. The AFD has just recently been in a Russia and China related scandal. Republika has also spoken out about the war in Ukraine in a very similar manner. Zemmour, the leader of Reconquête also called for France to distance itself from the United States and cooperate more closely with Russia. Russophilia, at least under "Fractions:" needs to be included. Mtlelas (talk) 20:45, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree to the inclusion of Russophilia, but not as factions and fractions (in my opinion). There is no party in this alliance, that hasn’t called for more cooperation with Russia. For Patriots of Europe, it makes sense to have factions, as there is a split on that, but ESN does not have it. - FellowMellow (talk) 20:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia has an established List of political ideologies on which the content of these info boxes should be drawn (as linked to in the info box template page Template:Infobox political party).

"Russophilia" is not listed in the political ideologies and as such, as per MOS, should not be included. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 21:00, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo Jc Jo well in Patriots of Europe and other European parties, it was accepted inside the infobox. Why are they able to be included there, but not here? - FellowMellow (talk) 21:01, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct @FellowMellow, I agree it should not be included there either. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 21:03, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yet it is. @Jo Jc Jo, as there is consensus there. If you think it should not be included there, then I strongly suggest you indicate this in the Patriots talk page. - FellowMellow (talk) 21:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We're going off topic here: inclusion elsewhere does not justify inclusion here.

I have rationalised my argument above clearly for why it should be here.

As per WP:CON, please address the points of the argument if you disagree. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 21:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, you’re mistaken. We are not getting off topic. As long as there is consensus, on other talk pages, it doesn’t legitimize that it shouldn’t be on here. - FellowMellow (talk) 21:07, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is not included in that list, but it is included in the ideology of several political parties all over the world. Russophilia is an important foreign policy platform. The list of ideologies needs to change, not thousands of pages using it. Mtlelas (talk) 21:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, one of the parties using it is ESN member Mi Hazánk. Mtlelas (talk) 21:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I 100% agree with @Mtlelas.

it seems to be a 3-1 decision at the moment. - FellowMellow (talk) 21:08, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's great but as per WP:CON, we achieve consensus through discussion not majority. Pease see Wikipedia:TALKDONTREVERT for further info on the consensus process. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 21:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What a silly comment this is. I am perfectly aware that it’s consensus. However, so far and most users did not agree with your option. It seems a bit that you are trying to ignore what other users think. Also, no reverts have been done. I strongly encourage you to pay more attention about what other users believe. @Autospark @Zlad! please weigh in also, as you both have also commented. - FellowMellow (talk) 21:14, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think Russophilia is adequate. Zlad! (talk) 21:17, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo Jc Jo We can not reach consensus if one person simply objects. Do you maybe have an idea for a compromise? Mtlelas (talk) 21:17, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly! 4 people support this and 1 doesn’t. What is your proposal as a compromise? - FellowMellow (talk) 21:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @Mtlelas:. I think the concerns around MOS need to be addressed for its inclusion with fear of the Ideology box getting out of hand. If we start to branch out from the constraints of the agreed list then the concerns of the start of this thread (becoming messy) are more likely. If we include everything they dislike with a “phobia” suffix and everything they like with a “Philia” suffix what are the limits? I can think of 20 others we could add.

As a compromise I would propose finding the closest ideology from this list and including it and, assuming russophilia meets WP:NPV and WP:DUE then it should be included in the article body. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 21:28, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wow skips right over me… definitely good consensus and talk. Very sad. - FellowMellow (talk) 21:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But sure please do find the closest ideology possible. - FellowMellow (talk) 21:34, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And if @Jo Jc Jo can't find an ideology that is close enough, then in my opinion, the same consensus should be reached as on other pages where this was a contested issue. Mtlelas (talk) 21:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. - FellowMellow (talk) 21:45, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mtlelas: also, I propose the proponents of the inclusion post a reference for the claim here too. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 21:46, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here are a couple: [2]https://rtl.hu/belfold/2022/03/03/oroszorszag-mi-hazank-karpatalja-toroczkai-laszlo-vlagyimir-putyin-ukrajna

[3]https://www.lakmusz.hu/putyin-haborus-propagandajat-viszi-magaval-a-parlamentbe-a-mi-hazank/

[4]https://www.br.de/nachrichten/deutschland-welt/wie-russlandfreundlich-ist-die-afd,U9Satrx

[5]https://taz.de/AfD-und-Russland/!5911068/

[6]https://www.diepresse.com/18541649/eine-russophile-partei-aus-bulgarien-koennte-auch-zu-einem-problem-fuer-europa-werden

[7]https://cz.boell.org/en/2023/09/12/zahranicnopoliticka-agenda-v-programoch-strany-najviac-rozdeluje-pristup-k-moskve Mtlelas (talk) 22:00, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! They all appear to all be from before the creation of the EP group and do not make any reference to ESN. Including Russophilia on this basis would constitute original research. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 22:10, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In all honesty, I do not see why the ideology of the parties within the group, most if not all of whom are quite pro-Russian, should not count towards the overall ideology of the group. After all, they became a group because they agree with each others policies. But as long as the souce provided by @FellowMellow is accepted, fine by me. Mtlelas (talk) 22:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, @Mtlelas. - FellowMellow (talk) 22:27, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you too @FellowMellow Mtlelas (talk) 23:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anytime! - FellowMellow (talk) 23:42, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mtlelas @Zlad! @Jo Jc Jo

Here is another one. [8].

"A collector of ultranationalist parties, hinged on the Germans of Alternative für Deutschland (who have half the membership), with Reconquête and Konfederacja." "Not even 48 hours after the birth of Patriots for Europe, yet another sovereignist far-right group has been formed in the European Parliament: “Europe of Sovereign Nations”, a collector of ultranationalist, eurosceptic, and pro-Russian parties led by the Germans of Alternative für Deutschland."

Here is another source, but ultranationalism also could have a place in the infobox, if agreed too. Or perhaps National Conservatism, if you prefer to go softer on what to use. - FellowMellow (talk) 22:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo Jc Jo this one was written, as ESN was formed. - FellowMellow (talk) 22:13, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then I think that's fine to use as the basis for the list (providing it's WP:RELIABLE?) ! Thanks FellowMellow. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 22:18, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You’re welcome @Jo Jc Jo and thank you. So is it able to be added, along with ultranationalism? I don’t want to add anything without confirmation. - FellowMellow (talk) 22:28, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming the reliability of the source I think they should be listed as they are in the source. IE, Far-right, sovereignist, ultranationalist, eurosceptic, and pro-Russian. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 22:34, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would be right adding neo-fascism to fations. Much parties that take part of this group are describes as neo fascist. Democrático Slovak (talk) 22:57, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have only seen the Slovak Republic Movement and the SPD be described that way. I would also say that a source is required, that is a third-party source, stating that this is a neo-fascist alliance. Do you have one? @Mtlelas @Jo Jc Jo please weigh in also. FellowMellow (talk) 23:13, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would not add it. I have seen two parties described as neo-fascist in this group, Republika and Our Homeland Movement. Both are indeed far right parties, but I'd argue they dont actively preach racial superiority, authoritarianism, or opposition to capitalism, which tend to be important for neo-fascist parties such as CasaPound. Mtlelas (talk) 23:40, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The AFD,[9] the Freedom and Direct Democracy (see it's page) and Revival[10] are also described as neo fascists parties. How ever, neofascism is not allways oposed to capitalism. Democrático Slovak (talk) 23:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It can justified have neo-fascist ideology in the factions. Democrático Slovak (talk) 00:29, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo Jc Jo please weigh in. - FellowMellow (talk) 01:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From my perspective I don't think there's any need to rush to include neo-facism.

I think it's quite strong language to include unsourced and I don't think it's going to be long until there a reliable source describing the group in those terms anyway so once there is I think it can be added.

I'll be following this story in the Euro bubble press and I'll keep an eye out for it there. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 07:58, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think
Factions:
Libertarianism
should be added. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 04:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any reliable sources that explicitly and unambiguously describe the ESN group as having libertarian factions?— Autospark (talk) 09:53, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think Social conservatism can also be added, maybe under Factions: . Mtlelas (talk) 08:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any reliable sources that explicitly and unambiguously describe the ESN group as having social conservative factions?— Autospark (talk) 09:53, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All parties seem socially conservative there, why the need for factions Zlad! (talk) 10:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We’re not here to invent descriptions which aren’t based on reliable sources. Please learn how academic referencing works.— Autospark (talk) 10:22, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean? I don't think social conservatism is that necessary for the ideology section even if there were sources as Ultranationalism seems to be a more apt descriptor. But I even more explicitly oppose including it in the ideology section as a faction as that would give people the impression that the group as a whole is socially liberal, but some factions are conservative which would be total bollocks. Zlad! (talk) 10:49, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ideology in Infobox Proposal

I propose listing no ideologies in the Ideology field of the Infobox, merely the Position of far-right. The group is composed of far-right parties, but is still relatively heterogeneous in terms of the identical slant of its member parties. Also, that would avoid inventing ideological descriptions and/or misreading journalistic sources which are available. Any ideological descriptions of the party should be left to a specific Ideology section of the article body, and if there are not enough reliable sources to yet justify an Ideology section, keep the descriptors in the article lede. This would be more accurate than a bloated Infobox full of inaccurately referenced sources.—Autospark (talk) 10:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree

@Autospark: This is a duplicate of the above discussion topic- Ideology. Consensus has been reached around the ideologies to be included and consensus around some that should not be included. This was a compromise to find consensus (and it happens I agreed with you in that discuss).

Those that have been included have not been "Invented" and those that have been included have been done through compromise and after discussion. Again, see above.

Your argument to leave "ideology section to a specific Ideology section article body" also has no standing as the ideology box conforms with the MOS and is inline with the agreed Infobox parameters.

If you have specifically questioning the reliabilities of the sources used then this is a seperate matter that should, again, be discussed in the above thread.

I oppose your suggested edits. Jo Jc Jo^{Talk💬Edits📝} 14:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Membership Map

This page should have a Map with its members. Can somebody make a map like that. I got some person to make a map for Patriots for Europe, It would be good if this page gets a map as well.Muaza Husni (talk) 05:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why Was SALF added to members and with 1MEP?

SALF has previously stated that they had no connection to AfD and instead wanted to join ECR or EPP but were being vetoed by the spanish conservative parties Vox and PP respectively. Now that Vox has left ECR its very likely theyll focus on joining ECR. Moreover, while early sources of information did list SALF as members soon after these claims were taken back. So why is SALF currently being added as one of the members, given only 1 MEP when SALF has 3, and finally if the 1 MEP had joined ENS would have 26 not 25 as listed. OguHunter (talk) 13:48, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to the EU results page, ENS was updated, but not with SALF as a member. – FellowMellow (talk) 14:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Number of MEP’s per party column

I think it should be added under the “Membership” section. It is standard procedure to include it for other groups like European People's Party Group or Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats. 2A00:1110:234:A048:4DD5:6F3A:758A:A50F (talk) 14:53, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]