Talk:Hillary Clinton: Difference between revisions

How did this get in the article?

This is currently part of Hillary Clinton's article. How did it make it in the article if it's locked for editing? Clearly this is wrong: Admission of US support to terrorist groups Hilary Clinton admits that the US government created and funded Al-Qaeda in order to fight the soviet union, and she even considers that as a good thing. But she claims that the Americans are fighting Al-Qaeda nowadays. She also admits that US funded Mujahaddin[344] and then left it for Pakistan government to deal with.[345]

It was just added by some editor a few hours ago and I've removed it. If you look at the actual YouTube clips, they are completely unexceptional - she just goes over the familiar history of the eventual blowback from the U.S. support of anti-Soviet fighters in Afghanistan. The point she's making is that even good ideas at the time can turn out to have very unintended consequences down the road. The text the editor added is not a fair representation of what she was saying, and her real position (which is hardly controversial) belongs in Political positions of Hillary Rodham Clinton if anywhere. Wasted Time R (talk) 05:15, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Images

We could use a discussion on updating images. I would like to see if we can replace the main infobox image, add at least one image (her official painting) and perhaps revisit whether or not to have the graphic poll images. I still see this as being given too much weight.--Amadscientist (talk) 00:17, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm totally open to replacing the top photo if you can come up with something more current that can pass for a portrait and is of good quality and that WP has rights to. The official painting of her as First Lady done by Simmie Knox was thrown out years ago as not being public domain or fair use. (I can't find the discussion that led to that right now, but I remember it clearly.) The Gallup Poll favorability ratings definitely belong, as they graphically tell her story vis à vis public opinion and several mainstream publications printed similar charts at the end of the Sec State tenure. However, I really need to update the chart for the most recent years. I'm also open to combining all the years in one chart, instead of having three or four ones for different time periods. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:30, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I think I remember that deletion discussion on the painting now. I believe it is because the copyright is still retained by the artist and there has been no attempt to OTRS it for permissions (which the artist may or may not be interested in doing). I think the charts are being given undue weight on her biography and can't help but wonder if the article could make it to FA if we split off into something like Public image of Hillary Rodham Clinton using those public poll in that article.--Amadscientist (talk) 21:01, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

In general, WP articles tend towards the wordy and need more charts, tables, and illustrations, not less. What is undue weight about graphically showing that she used to be very polarizing but now has widespread public acceptance? This evolution over time was dominant in the media coverage as she ended her Sec State tenure. And the existence of the chart has nothing to do with whether the article could make FA or not. The three previous FACs (one of them has a restart in the middle of it, so really counts as two) were all miserable experiences that ended in failure, in the last case because (IMO) the FAC delegates lost their nerve. The Mitt Romney FACs this past summer and fall were a miserable experience that ended in failure followed by an even more miserable experience that ended in success. The John McCain FACs five years ago were a miserable failure and a surprisingly easy success. Overall that's an 86 percent misery rate on FACs of active presidential candidates or possible candidates, which doesn't sound like a recipe for happiness to me. And in any case I still need to do more work on the Secretary of State section when I get the time, and there's a couple of books published in the last two years that I need to go through for useful content as well. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:55, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Follow-up – I have gone ahead and replaced the three separate favorable/unfavorable ratings charts with a single one, and updated that one to include the most recent results. I think this way the broad sweep of change in her ratings is easiest for the reader to see. I have added a caption and source that explains the biggest change points. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:04, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Impeachment committee role

Clinton's involvement in watergate is only briefly mentioned here, and the article only discusses how she was a member of the impeachment staff and was responsible for researching procedures of impeachment. Somehow, the part where she was "fired for lies and unethical behavior" is left out. There are multiple sources that confirm this: http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/52621 http://www.wnd.com/2008/04/60962/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrockets (talk • contribs) 04:24, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

She was not fired by anyone. I have not seen any reliable, mainstream sources that say that Zeifman was even her supervisor on the committee. The Bernstein bio says that Bernard Nussbaum was her immediate supervisor (pp 96-97). The author of the piece you link to is a conservative op-ed writer who started his own news service which then folded. It's been republished by WorldNetDaily and by some site linked to Herman Cain, which are about as far from reliable sources as you can get. Were there differences of opinion on the committee about historical precedents and how those should influence the course in the Watergate case? No doubt. Did those amount to some grand conspiracy to do in Nixon while protecting the Kennedys, as Zeifman seems to think? There are no mainstream sources that support this that I have seen. Neither the Bernsein bio nor the Gerth/Van Natta bio say anything about this. They say mostly that Hillary like others worked long, sometimes tedious hours, and that she and the few other women on the staff had to post a sign telling the male staffers that they were not there to make coffee for them. Wasted Time R (talk) 10:48, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 May 2013

"She is the most widely traveled secretary during her time in office" is awkward, both because of the verb tense (it's kind-of shifting between present and past) and because it's unclear whether it means just Sec'y of State or all kinds of secretaries. Please change it to "She became the most widely travelled Secretary of State during her time in office". 2001:18E8:2:1020:CDCA:8938:1F9F:A938 (talk) 15:03, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

 Done--JayJasper (talk) 16:25, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 6 (June 2013)

Hillary Rodham Clinton → Hillary Clinton – Per WP:COMMONNAME. I can't believe the current title has survived several requests to move it to the most common and concise name used to refer to this article's topic. I call WP:YOGURTRULE.

Anyone pointing out the current title is her "official" name really needs to read WP:OFFICIAL.

Besides the groundless "official name" argument, what basis is there to keep the current title? That some reliable sources use it some times? So what? More sources use the proposed title more often, and that's what matters. The longer title is not more recognizable - everyone knows who "Hillary Clinton" is. B2C 22:46, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose again. This is now the fifth time this has been raised. Everyone also knows who "Hillary" refers to, but we don't make that the name of the article. I don't have time right now to repeat the arguments against this move, nor do I think it is productive to keep bringing it up, with all respect. See Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, for starters. Tvoz/talk 23:10, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

The community has decided that Hillary has no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and so the dab page is located there. If Hillary redirected to this article, you might have a point with that. As to Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, she's originally notable, and more notable, for being a Kennedy; that is not the case for Mrs. Clinton. --B2C 23:40, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

The community has also decided, four times - most recently just months ago - that this article is properly named. Wasted Time R's recap below sums up the arguments quite well, and I concur completely. Tvoz/talk 04:14, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• Support I'm not sure Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis is the best title for this person, but the issues with Hillary Clinton are not identical. PatGallacher (talk) 23:53, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

• Support Wholeheartedly support this proposal. There's been a marked shift over the years in the most common name used for Clinton. "Hillary Rodham Clinton" was very commonly used throughout the 1990s, but in the past 5 years or so, Hillary Clinton has become predominant. Sure, you'll still see that official name Hillary Rodham Clinton on her book covers, but most references to her now are just "Hillary Clinton," or "Secretary of State Hillary Clinton." Jackie Kennedy was never better known as Jacqueline Onassis or Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis than as Jacqueline Kennedy, so that is not a comparable case. Dezastru (talk) 00:05, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Where is your evidence for this "marked shift"? And the Jackie case is comparable. "Jacqueline Kennedy", "Jackie Kennedy", and "Jackie O" all get more Google hits than "Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis" does, and by the crude common name argument should win. But we correctly locate the article at "Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis" because that was the name she used in the latter stages of her life and the name that serious media refered to her by then and after her death. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:04, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose strongly yet again. This was already decided here and here and here and here, the last one being only six months ago. All the arguments for and against are going to be the same this time around. This is abuse of process, pure and simple, just like bringing an article to AfD five times because you didn't like the keep decision the first four times. It's basically hoping different people show up to !vote this time around and that you get lucky. That's not how consensus is supposed to work. And if you want a new argument, the Rodham biopic has been much in the news of late - see this CBS news story for example - and so that part of her name will be in even more use than before. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:29, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Anyway, just to recap, "Rodham" is the last name that she was born with and used even after marriage for a while and that she chooses to keep. That's why the biopic is being named Rodham. "Hillary Rodham Clinton" is her official name, see her official Senate page (archived) and her official former Secretary of State page and her signature. This was also the name she announced that she preferred when she became First Lady in 1993, see here. The serious media generally always refer to her as Hillary Rodham Clinton on first mention, see for example any New York Times article, such as this story from a week ago, or see any Washington Post story, such as this one from a few days ago. The Times also uses Hillary Rodham Clinton to title its profile page on her. This is her name, and this is what the article's name should be. And we've been through this over and over. Don't people have something better to do here than re-litigate this? Wasted Time R (talk) 01:55, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Agree, on all points. Tvoz/talk 04:14, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

As nom I resent the insinuations here that violate AGF. First, I was not part of any of the previous discussions. Second, the last one resulted in no consensus; nothing was "decided". Last I check the way we reach consensus on WP is through discussion, and that's what this proposal is supposed to encourage.

This is the quintessential case to invoke the WP:Yogurt Rule: currently, WP:COMMONNAME justifies the proposed move; once the article is moved to Hillary Clinton, there will be no good argument based in policy to move it back to this title.

As to your second paragraph, did you even read the proposal? You did not address any of the points there. Have you read WP:OFFICIAL? Then why do you mention that the title reflects her "official" name? WP:COMMONNAME? WP:CRITERIA?

And going by the name of her biopic? Seriously? By that "logic" we should move Margaret Thatcher to The Iron Lady.. or to Margaret "Iron Lady" Thatcher. Please. --B2C 04:22, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't implying lack of good faith, but you could have looked at the history and seen that this was discussed four times before and most recently six months ago. As for "no consensus", I believe all failed RM's get that designation, regardless of the margin. As for "Yogurt Rule", that's a non-binding essay that seems to translate to "We know we are right in our interpretation of all the rules and guidelines, we don't care what anyone else thinks." And I am bringing up the Rodham film not to indicate we name according to movie titles, but to counter the notion some have presented here that nobody knows about or cares about that part of her name. Wasted Time R (talk)

No, "no consensus" is different from "not moved". The latter means the present title has consensus support; the former indicates that there is no consensus either way. Timrollpickering (talk) 17:25, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• Support: WP:TITLE: Recognizability (suggestion is fine), Naturalness (suggestion is fine), Precision (suggestion is fine), Conciseness ("The title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects" – suggestion is an improvement), Consistency (suggestion has no obvious problem). And WP:YOGURTRULE (suggestion seems to resemble yogurt suggestion). —BarrelProof (talk) 05:38, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Consensus can change, but there really should be a moratorium on bringing this up more than once per century. She has been well known as Hillary Rodham Clinton nationally for more than two decades now. Many reliable sources still refer to her with the inclusion of Rodham on first reference. And, while it's not a deciding factor for my opinion here, there is a biographical film in production called "Rodham" that's likely to have some impact on the continued common usage of her maiden name. user:j (talk) 06:26, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• To counter two common threads above: I don't find the "Yoghurt Rule" (which is an essay, not a guideline or a policy) compelling enough to trump WP:NCP, and I doubt the assumption that the matter would then be considered "settled for all time." Secondly, concision does not override the naming convention, either (see, for example, WP:MIDDLES). It's also worth pointing out that, in my opinion, a better example than Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis is actually John F. Kennedy. It could just as easily be at John Kennedy, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, or even JFK for that matter. But, his "official" name (at least as prescribed by his presidential library) and, arguably, his most "common" name, are both John F. Kennedy. The subject of this article has a stated preference for the inclusion of her maiden name, that's what is used in the most cited reliable sources on first reference, and it's been her name in common usage for quite some time now. Hence, my oppose. Just thought it would be helpful to elaborate.  :) user:j (talk) 06:44, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
  • John F. Kennedy is the title of that article per WP:COMMONNAME. That is, that's what is used most commonly to refer to the subject of that article (much more often than John Kennedy, which is rarely used). JFK is also commonly used, but not as commonly as John F. Kennedy.

    The same principle applies here. While Hillary Rodham Clinton is commonly used, it's not used as commonly as Hillary Clinton.

    I can't believe you too are bringing up the title of the biopic. See my comment about Thatcher above. --B2C 07:00, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

    • I would actually argue JFK is more commonly used than John F. Kennedy, but I don't think concision is an improvement there (hence it not being the primary factor for WP:NCP). In any event, that's an argument for another article. Balancing common and "official" usage, I think the article is at the right title here, as I've said. Your response to the biopic title was more of a strawman than a rebuttal, but I did take note of it. I don't think I'm going to change your mind, and your current arguments haven't changed mine, so we'll see where the discussion leads... user:j (talk) 07:17, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
    • Agree with J. And JFK is not the only such example. Lyndon B. Johnson is located there, even though there are more Google hits for each of "Lyndon Johnson" and "LBJ". Stephen E. Ambrose is located there, because that is the name he published under, even though "Stephen Ambrose" gets more Google hits. "Common name" does not trump correctness, and thus we have articles located at Diana, Princess of Wales and Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge even though more popular forms get far more hits. Wasted Time R (talk) 10:23, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• Support it appears the only argument those opposed to this move are making is that this has already been discussed before several times. A) Consensus can change. B) The fact that this continues to be brought up should show that there is much support for the move -- would anyone actually argue to move it to the current title if it were moved to "Hillary Clinton"? C) In recent years she's been almost exclusively referred to as "Hillary Clinton." D) Her now defunct campaign website doesn't use "Rodham" nor does her current website. Hot Stop 16:14, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Actually, hillaryclintonoffice.com does use the longer form repeatedly in its own "remarks". ╠╣uw [talk] 18:59, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
• Rename per WP:COMMONNAME and my past comments. What her "official" name is should have no bearing here. Timrollpickering (talk) 17:29, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose, per J, Tvoz, Wasted Time R, and the many who've already elaborated clear reasons for the current title in this and previous proposals. Querying Google, I see that the current and proposed titles both get raw hits in the low eight-figures – and in both cases Google presents a sidebar labeled "Hillary Rodham Clinton". However, mindful that raw Google hits don't tell the whole story, I also clicked through the list of external links in the article and noticed that the sizable majority of them use the longer form: US Department of State, White House, US Congress directory, VoteSmart, Federal Election Commission, C-SPAN, Charlie Rose, IMDB, WorldCat, The New York Times, The Washington Post, Open Directory, etc. ╠╣uw [talk] 18:48, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

  Google's sidebar comes from us, so using it to argue for or against a particular title is circular. Powers ^T 18:51, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

  True, thanks for clarifying. I'll just content myself with the numerous other major sources. :) ╠╣uw [talk] 19:04, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Although my gut tells me to support, I think the historical reasons and BLP user preferences still carry.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:15, 8 June 2013 (UTC)