Talk:Jelena Dokic: Difference between revisions

title

Jelena DokiÄ? is a bad title. Moved back. --mav 02:58, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Nationality

I think that it is very important to say that she is of Serbian ancestry, but Australian player. She is born in Croatia, but is Serbian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alser (talk • contribs) 22:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm trying to get a handle on this to some degree. There's no such nationality as 'Serbian Australian'. That's a US style of describing oneself which doesn't happen in Australian English. One is 'Australian of (nationality) ancestry' I had a bit of an 'edit fight' over it, and probably shouldn'y. Was merely attempting to 'correct' the phrasing. Looking on a fan site (http://www.jelena-dokic.com/jelena/ ), it says she's actually Yugoslavian. I have no idea. What's the various tennis associations list her as? Bleeter (talk)

Jelena's father is Serbian, but her mother is Croatian. I edited the article to mention this, with a reference to a very recent article about Jelena that verifies this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.101.17.254 (talk) 16:30, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Can you please list a source for that claim. Both of her parents are Serbian, and reside in Belgrade, Serbia. If you have a source which says that her mother is Croatian, please list it. Otherwise don't use hear say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alser (talk • contribs) 19:25, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I will accept that source. I have never heard her mother say that she is Croatian, and still don't understand why her mother was never back to Osijek since their escape from Croatia in 1991. She still lives in Belgrade, Serbia with her son. Her crazy husband has another house somewhere in Vojvodina.

I felt it was important to reference this source, to try and improve the accuracy of Jelena's Wikipedia page, which is supposed to be reliant on fact (whether one likes them or not)... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.101.17.254 (talk) 20:02, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

How credible can be only one source and one journalist on one side, and a mass of other journalist on another side. For journalist and common people in Serbia, and in Croatia, that claim that Jelena's mother is Croatian in unknown.

Journalists in Croatia always refer to Jelena as Serbian tennis player, with dual citizenship. In this interview, one of them, asks her: " How much is difficult, as the Serbian tennis player with Australian passport, to find sponsors in Croatia?" http://www.24sata.hr/sport/clanak/dokic-nemam-love--trazim-je-i-u-zagrebu/15977/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.216.147.8 (talk) 12:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Jelena Dokic has an Australian passport and is of Serbian ancestry. That is enough. Her mother might be Serbian or Croatian or whatever (the name Podnar could also be Slovenian, Czech or Polish, if you like you may go back 200 years), so we don't have any reliable sources. The obscure article in the footnote certainly isn't reliable. Jelena always declared herself as Serbian. The late Drazen Petrovic (basketball player) was one of Croatia's greatest sons, who declared himself a Croat, though his father was Serbian. So, leave it to Jelena Dokic, because she knows very well who and what she is.--80.133.250.33 (talk) 11:11, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Jelena Dokic has an Australian passport and is of Croatian and Serbian ancestry. That is enough. To say she is of Croatian and Serbian ancestry is factual and is not influenced by her self-identified ethnicity. I've restored the information blanked by the anon IP above.Ordinary Person (talk) 11:46, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

top sentence

The top sentence sounds a bit clumsy but I'm not sure how to phrase that properly. Top-tier player, or something? --Shallot 14:52, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sources for changes to Jelena Dokic entry (end 2005)

Rankings as at end 2005: (from WTA web site) http://www.wtatour.com/rankings/singles_numeric.asp?page=4

Info about 2001 Australian Open, her return to Australia in 2005 and 2005 quote: (from Sydney Morning Herald web site) http://www.smh.com.au/news/tennis/dokic-i-am-australian/2005/11/30/1133026474486.html

Troy88 17:42, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Moved from article

I move following section to here from an anon who may have deleted more than they thought --Alf ^melmac 14:19, 23 January 2006 (UTC);

Jelena Dokic, married to Enrique Bernoldi. Most hated female on tour. Victim of Her management company and the USTA. Banned from 2004 Olympic games by the WTA and USTA. Lawsuit against her old management company for bad representation. Won settlement from management company for indentured servitude. Receipt of no pay/ financial compensation. Management company found guilty of financial sabotage of Ms. Dokic's career in favor of Martina Hingis and Anna Kournikova. Father Damir victim of slander and libel campaign by tennis world.

title, again

Marco79 wrote: moved Jelena Dokić to Jelena Dokic: proper name in English (without diacritic)

Her surname is Dokić, not Dokic. She plays for Australia, there's no doubt about it, but if her birth certificate says Dokić, it says Dokić, it doesn't say Dokic. The practice of removing diacritics exists in English written media when they do not have the acute accent, but here we do have it and there's no reason to skip it. Does anyone actually think that English readers will be horribly confused by the acute and start panicking when they see it? --Joy [shallot] 12:17, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Her name is 'Јелена Докић' in Serbian and 'Jelena Dokic' in English. Her birth certificate probably says 'Докић' rather than 'Dokić' or 'Dokic', but you're saying you don't know for sure what her birth certificate says. I gusss some English-speakers might be confused by 'ć'. 203.164.184.190 12:50, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Non-European and non-Western (names and titles), "Dokic" without the diacritic should be correct as that is the "most common form of the name used in English". (I have never, ever seen "Dokić" in an Australian newspaper, say.) But I don't really care, since I presume the relevant RDRs exist. I don't think readers would be confused (do we think so lowly of them? :)). pfctdayelise (translate?) 15:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record, if she was born in Osijek, her original birth certificate is most likely written in Latin script. --Joy [shallot] 19:34, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I knew a friend once from school whose last name was "Basic" (pronounced "ba-sich"), who came from Croatia or Serbia (not sure which one), and she never used a diacritic when writting her name in English (I don't know how she spelt it in Serbo-Croatian). Wouldn't Jelena do the same when writting her last name in English, spelling it 'Dokic' not 'Dokić', I reckon she would. BTW what does "RDR" mean? 203.164.184.10 12:22, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Dokić

As you'll all see, I've taken the liberty of reverting the text back to the Croatian version. There are reasons for this. Unlike diasporans born outside of their homeland, Dokić was born in Yugoslavia and lived there for the first nine to ten years of her life, her first language was Serbo-Croat and she will no doubt have been familiar with the alphabetical system. Now, I clearly cannot speak for Dokić herself because I have never met the girl. I do know however that people from our former republics who go abroad will do one of two things with their name: they may either leave it as it is with all diacritics and insignia (after transliteration if first language is primarily written in a non-Latinic script, eg. Cyrillic or Greek), leaving locals to pronounce the name however they choose, or they will transcribe their name into a text which is more comprehensible to locals. In the case of Jelena Dokić, the first factor would have been to switch the initial letter to a 'Y'. When I was at school there many many Polish pupils with me and a few Yugoslavs. Since they were all born in the UK, most were simply unfamiliar with the standards from the origin and so they dropped them systematically (subconsciously, not having properly learnt them) whilst maintaining their original spellings. Jelena may now be playing under the Australian flag again but she does not fall into the category of one who was born there, without knowledge of Osijek, Croatia or Yugoslavia. In some of these cases it may be the parents who decide to localise their names at birth, better still, give them local language names instead of current homeland names. The fact is that she was born with one name which for reasons familiar to people from the former Yugoslav republics, had two alphabets, and Dokić is how she was known in the country of birth and still so today. As for local media leaving out the diacritic, this is another subject. It is common for English language newspapers to discard local spellings for various reasons, possibly saving time or not confusing the reader, I don't know; either way, the British papers barely ever use the diacritical marks, and this even in the international sections which deal with non-naturalised citizens, such as Slobodan Milošević (forever written Milosevic), or Hungarian Ferenc Gyurcsany (actually spellt Gyurcsány); Sven-Goran Eriksson (spellt in Swedish, Sven-Göran) and Turkish football club Fenerbahce (from Fenerbahçe). In fact, British newspapers nowadays even leave out diacritics which had long been a part of English itself, such as café, Haïti (to stress pronunciation) so it isn't worth removing the diacritical mark on these bases and leaving the rest of it untouched. Evlekis 11:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC) Евлекис

...Article about Monica Seles is not Monika Seleš. She is not Serbian, but Australian. --Göran Smith 14:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Well that's right. I think she's actually ethnic Hungarian but originally from Vojvodina. During the time she was growing up, Hungarians did for the most part have linguistic rights which included nomenclature and local orthography, at least in one official format. This would have actually made her Monika Szeles, possibly with a diacritical mark on either or both of the e letters. Either way, Monica Seles, using a c and a single s to start the surname and a single s at the end, both free of diacritics and digraphs, is how she herself has chosen to identify. That is not to say that the Serbian Latinic or the Hungarian forms would be incorrect and I certainly never suggested that Dokic is in any way incorrect, these forms are all conventional. It is just that the introduction needs to reflect the personal choice of the subject and one can find no source that Dokic is Jelena's own usage when in Australia. You see, Seles could have left her first name unaltered and it would have done nothing to inspire a different pronunciation (I mean switching K for C). In neither Hungarian orthography nor Serbo-Croat Latinic is the c of the same value as k at any time, not even in front of hard vowels and consonants. As for variations, well they all fit, I mean even Shakespeare had a dozen or so ways of spelling his own name and only in recent decades have writers settled for one conventional form. Evlekis 15:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC) Евлекис

Birthplace

ITF and WTA official pages of Dokic ^{[1] [2]} mentioted she was born in Belgrade. It is mistake ? --kelovy 06:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I live in Serbia and I know from media and I think that is a general knowledge, in Serbia and Croatia, that she's born in Osijek, Croatia. --Göran Smith 09:15, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

thank You for information --kelovy 14:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion concerning this article

A discussion that may affect the name or title of this article is ongoing here. Please voice any opinions or concerns on that page. After the discussion concludes, this article may be moved to a different title, in accordance with Wikipedia's Naming Conventions. Thank you, Redux (talk) 05:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The name of this article should be changed to "Jelena Dokic" because that is the name used on the English-language websites of the official governing bodies of tennis, the Women's Tennis Association and the International Tennis Federation. That also is the name used on the English-language websites of Fed Cup and the Australian Open. Tennis expert (talk) 04:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Wins against former number one ranked players

The article states:

"Other highlights include beating several former World No. 1 players: Martina Hingis in the first round of Wimbledon in 1999, Kim Clijsters at the 2003 Zürich Open, and Venus Williams at the 2000 Italian Open."

I am confused as to whether that means she has beaten several former number one players or three former number one players. Please can someone rewrite the sentence to make it clearer? Coyets (talk) 09:24, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

The article continues:

"Other high-calibre players whom Dokić has defeated include Monica Seles, Justine Henin, Amélie Mauresmo, Mary Pierce, and Jennifer Capriati."

This implies that these players are of high calibre, but are not former number one players. This is incorrect. So both sentences need rewording. Coyets (talk) 09:30, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Damir

Is there a case for a separate article on Damir? He's fairly notable. I was going to add some material to his article regarding his recent arrest for threatening the Australian ambassador and possession of firearms and bombs, but discovered he doesn't have an article. That kind of information doesn't seem quite appropriate in the Jelena article. Ordinary Person (talk) 05:35, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Concur. The guy has notability in his own right, eg [3]. -- 150.101.214.69 (talk) 09:38, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you can start with this version, but even being very NPOV you'll have a fairly negative article (IMHO) so definitely fill it with references. Mark Hurd (talk) 15:48, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

 Done Mark Hurd (talk) 04:23, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Error

I don't know what the score was so I can't truly edit this piece but

"Dokic was knocked out of the Brisbane International by Amelie Mauresmo in straight sets in the first round. Dokic was up 5–3 in the first set before Mauresmo came back to win the tiebreak 11–9. In the second set, Dokic was down 3–5 but rallied to lead 6–5 before Mauresmo won the set in a tiebreak, 7–5."

Obviously you can't tie break at 6-5 so if someone knows the result, can you edit it to be factually correct. thanks. 86.135.254.246 (talk) 07:07, 1 June 2009 (UTC)