Talk:Lima: Difference between revisions

Page move discussion

(from Wikipedia:Requested moves)

Lima, Peru → Lima

Lima is a city of eight million, and every major city deserves to have an article that doesn't need further explanation of its name, even if there are other places that share the same name. Examples of this are: Saint Petersburg, London and York. The significance of the other places listed in the disambiguation page is much smaller than that of Lima, Peru. -- Tuomas 22:46, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Support - I'm suprised that it isn't at Lima already. Jooler
• Support, naturally. ADH (t&m) 00:18, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
• Support. De facto case for primary topic disambiguation. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 07:49, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Aye... I mean, "support". Rd232 13:14, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Support. -- Itai 14:04, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Support. G-Man 23:30, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Support' BanyanTree 00:05, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

100% consensus to move to Lima

-- Netoholic @ 18:54, 2005 Jan 14 (UTC)

Demographics ?

Several users have been replacing and removing the linked word Demographics in the box [1]. What purpose does it serve? -- Viajero 15:24, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, unfortunately there has been a revert war on this article page. The reason I keep removing "Demographics" is because not all the information on the table is demography-related (for example, the time zone or latitude & longitude), plus the original table, which is a wikipedia standard, didn't include this word on it; but User:HappyApple insists on putting that word. I'd like to know the opinion of the other editors. --Tuomas ^hello 17:49, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you. Our own article, Demographics, describes it as

selected characteristics of a population (age and income distribution and trends, mobility, educational attainment, home ownership and employment status, for instance).

Wordnet says:

a statistic characterizing human populations (or segments of human populations broken down by age or sex or income etc.)

-- Viajero 19:02, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I must say in references such as Britannica Encyclopedia refers as branch of statistics, however distribution and human populations are not the only terms that demographics describes, it also compromises geographical and geological terms which is the place in which the people (subject of study from statistics) live. There is standard to wikipedia city tables so it would be appropiate to dont disrupt this template.HappyApple 22:48, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

nickname vs motto

A nickname is a short, informal name, like the hub (Boston) or the big apple (NY). "La ciudad de los reyes" does not fall into this category. It may be a motto, depending on whether it is used officially, although mottos usually have an exhortive character. -- Viajero 16:05, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

By historically terms is accurate to say motto instead nickname, many historians have made an accord by research, during the early years of spanish colonial regime in the 16th century , authorities, nobility , dwellers, peasants and slaves used the name City of Kings instead Lima (name which has been refered from an amerindian flower), it appeared on official maps by cartographers at that time as well. Used as motto from the time of Charles I of Spain and his court to nobility in many spanish american colonies. Historians like Pablo Macera believe the name Lima was tend to be accepted as name after Napolean's brother took over Spain in the beginning of 19th century and the dawn of independence as matter of nationalism and its further ideals.HappyApple 22:36, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have liven in Lima for many years and in fact was born and raised there and it is very obvious that the term "The City of Kings" is widely accepted as the city's nickname. User:jose61493 22:21, 17 Dec 2005 (UTC)

message to HappyApple

1. demographics. Sorry, you are wrong. Also, I don't see this term used in a similar way for other cities. To which "standard" are you referring?
2. motto. Based on what you write above, this is phrase is not a motto. Please consult an dictionary about the current usage of the meaning; it is more or less equivalent to slogan.
3. metro. We don't need to state mass-transit because by defition a metro is mass-transit; the term is redundant here. Also, most metros consist of more than just rails; I assume the Lima one does as well.

Look, we are spending far too much time and energy on insignificant details. There are many topics on Peru which urgently need work; there is lots to do. It is wonderful that there are Peruvians like you now contributing to these pages. However, you must keep in mind that this is a collaborative effort and that we all contribute different things. If you are unable to accept native speakers of English correcting your texts, then you won't last very long here. I have reverted your most recent changes; let's move onto other matters now please. -- Viajero 10:19, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It is just a discussion, to ensure which term should be most accurate on Lima article. I have already consulted with Britannica Encyclopedia however i will check on other reference such as Merriam Webster. The standard which i was refering it is on wikipedia template for city information, the word demographics is not in there so i stopped modifying it. However I insist based on historian's opinion its more accurate to call it motto, however slogan it is good choice too.

• I think so you are right in some way, metro by definition is a mass transit indeed, but not all people know that, however your terms are acceptable and i consider end to this topic.
  1. The agreement signed between our mayor and the president according said to press said, it will allow the finance for pending rails tracks left unfinished from the 80's and it doesn't seem mention of financing new wagons or multiple units, i think it would be appropiate to specify on article and preventing further missunderstanding.
• I agree with you as a collaborative effort, but i think an accurate information should be written. There are other matters of interest related to Peru articles such as political and historical figures for example which i am doing research to write those articles.And i remind you on every topic on encyclopedia like in science and culture, even insignificant details like you said have very deeply impact on readers. Be humble.HappyApple 14:33, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Historical Names accuracy

• Doing a research about history of university in which i am currently studying, National University of Saint Mark was called this way in honor of Saint Mark one of apostles in a vote, papal bull of Pope Pius V confirmed the name. His representation in middle ages (Saint Mark) was a lion because of its courage, and you can see this in the university coat of arms. I consider accurate call it National University of Saint Mark instead San Marcos because
  • We are on english wikipedia and it must be appropiate to use an english name to refer this university.
  • Historical names can be translated.
  • The spanish name of the saint has an english translation, and it is not altering the official name in any way, and a prove of this and i quote University of Saint Mark

The highest institution of learning in Peru, located at Lima .... [[2]] used on Catholic Encyclopedia. Finally i have not changed the article of name on San Marcos to Saint Mark, i used piped link, which wikipedia recommends. Please User:Viajero dont destroy my contributions.HappyApple 03:21, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

---

HappyApple:

A Google search on the phrase "National University of Saint Mark" [3] reveals nine hits, all of them Wikipedia texts. IOW, they are all yours. A Google search on the phrase "National University of San Marcos" [ [4] returns nearly 1,000. A single article in the Catholic encyclopedia does not support this Anglicized usage. In English, this institution is most commonly known as the "National University of San Marcos" and that is how we should refer to it, in accordance with Wikipedia:Naming conventions, which states:

Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize

If you still doubt me, place an inquiry about this on the Village Pump and you will see that every other editor on Wikipedia will suport me on this. If you continue to impose your own naming conventions in Wikipedia, you are in violation of our communal decision-making process and you may be sanctioned. -- Viajero 16:18, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

---

Viajero:
The issue about the historical name accuracy of Saint Mark instead San Marcos was already discussed with another wikipedian User:StarbucksFreak and we got a consensus, we agreed to use Saint Mark instead San Marcos, as we are on english wikipedia, and the official name of the university has not been altered in any way.

• I dont think so i am violating any communal decision or trying to impose something, and i quote from the Wikipedia:Naming conventions this : It is important to note that these are conventions, not rules written in stone....and there may be cases where a particular convention is "obviously" inappropriate.
• Also i support my defense with this article in which support this anglicized usage too,and i quote ...were decreed in 1551.8 In some instances, such as that of the University of Saint Mark in Lima, the university has kept its colonial library

[[5]].

• Google is not the one and only viable source to have information about this university on english language they exists other searches such as Altavista and Yahoo.
• I also want to say this issue was already solved and you were not part of this discussion when it began or even when the consensus was agreed. I dont think so you can impose your thinking on wikipedia.
• I want to remind you again Historical names can be translated in many languages english among them, and this is the case of San Marcos from spanish to Saint Mark on english.
• And, as wikipedia say in Naming Conventions this Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize i am pretty sure english speakers would find easier to understand Saint Mark then San Marcos.

Finally i would please ask to your conscience, be reasonable, i dont have the interest to modify the article name to National University of San Marcos to move to National University of Saint Mark, i am using a piped link as wikipedia recomends, i am following all the rules.HappyApple 02:49, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wait - I never agreed with you on that. I just decided to leave it there, since you're a student of that university. --Tuomas ^hello 03:05, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

As you did not clarified your possition until today and as you decided to leave it there, it can be interpretated as consensus. However viajero was not involved in this issue, his editions are in some way not accurate and he did not discussed about his editions in the discussion from article.HappyApple 03:30, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

---

Clarifying information:

• The issue about the historical name accuracy about Saint Mark or San Marcos was already in discussion with another user User:StarbucksFreak, who is from Peru too, however a final accord was not made, he let it there.
• The name has not altered, Saint Mark is the english name of the saint , who has been choosen in the 16th century as the name of university, confirmed, by papal bull of Pope Pius V.
• User:Viajero was not involved in this issue on the beginning.
• Arguments he use to defend his own think are based on this and i quote, A Google search on the phrase "National University of San Marcos" returns nearly 1,000. A single article in the Catholic encyclopedia [[6]] does not support this Anglicized usage.
• However Google is not the one and only viable source to have information on the internet, there are other references to search on the internet such as Yahoo and among others.The use of University of Saint Mark is used also in other reference about Historical libraries.[[7]]
• This is not the only discussion he has, a previous discussion about motto instead nickname or also called, he used this argument to defend his position, Look, we are spending far too much time and energy on insignificant details.
• If you are unable to accept native speakers of English correcting your texts, then you won't last very long here. I have reverted your most recent changes; let's move onto other matters now please.
  • How did you interpretate this, as an attack?.
    • I dont want to believe he is in some kind of discrimination with me because he is an american and should be known more english then me.
• The naming policy said this in the beginning of the article and i quote:

It is important to note that these are conventions, not rules written in stone....and there may be cases where a particular convention is "obviously" inappropriate.

• Finally, however i have right arguments to defend my position, it seems user viajero is unable to accept my contributions, he thinks his own vision should be on peruvian related articles. And this is the same not only with this, is also about the Lima's metro and Lima's motto.HappyApple 17:20, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sanity and San Marcos

I have only ever (in English) seen the name given as "National University of San Marcos" or (my personal pref.) "San Marcos National University". What has happened is that with 5 centuries of history in there, the San Marcos flag has been disassociated from the evangelist to become an inextricable part of the university's name. That's how the names of universities work in translation: take at look at the es:Universidad de Cambridge article on w:es -- for example, "Michaelhouse ... se unió a King's Hall para crear Trinity". Putting a line in the intro saying that it's named after St Mark is a great idea, but the name of the university in English is San Marcos. –Hajor 17:39, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. By the way, let us change the name of the "National University of San Marcos" article to "San Marcos National University" - how do you do that without creating broken links? Is there a better way than just redirecting? Hasdrubal 18:56, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Small modifications

Following changes made on Lima city article.

• Stated Saint Mark in parenthesis :
  • Due to it's still on discussion i propose as neutrality of this issue to have the anglizice name in parenthesis.
• Added City of Lima in the main city data chart.
  • User:StarbucksFreak used the name City of Lima in it's article, List of universities in Peru.
• Added information about Saint Mark still on operation as same being considered the most presitigious center of higher learning in Lima and Peru.
  • It is well known by peruvians as same by worldwide community Saint Mark's fame is known everywhere.For over four centuries, tradition and international recognition was gained.
• Removed image of Miraflores financial district image.
  • Fixed temporal typo.
• Added photography from Museum vases in Lima City Walls park, to culture section.

Still need

• Museums in Lima
• Soon replacement to Miraflores financial district photograph.

I hope usefull contributions like from User:StarbucksFreak can improve this article a little bit, keep going. HappyApple 03:12, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Talk Point

• Universities accuracy
  • In the paragraph regarding to universities, National University of San Marcos (Saint Mark) deserves to be highlighted as center of higher education. If the paragraph doesn't follow appropiate grammar, any changes in this subject are welcome.HappyApple 02:32, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I believe the statement about San Marcos being the most prestigious university is not NPOV, as HappyApple is a student of this institution. The Catolica and Cayetano Heredia universities have gained a lot of prestige in the last decades and should be considered to be of the same level as San Marcos. I see HappyApple has reverted these changes for the second time. Maybe we should vote on this? --Tuomas ^hello 06:19, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

See my current edit. I would agree, myself, that only the Catolica is at the same level as a general institution, but specialized schools such as the UNI, Cayetano Heredia and perhaps the Agraria are very good at what they do. Hasdrubal 18:58, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

My changes

Infobox: I'm not that familiar with infoboxes on city pages but I was trying to fix the page so that everything fit. [8], so that Removal of picture:The pic I removed was excess. I couldn't get all of the pics to fit in the history section and then after checking other city articles I realized most don't even have one pic. So I simply linked the page to the article itself which contains the pic. I kept the other pics because they ended fitting. Also, I felt the others were of more importance than the one I removed. Falphin 17:19, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• The other change I forgot about was that I moved the Demographics and one other section below the history simply because the pics seemed to work better. Different city articles tend to have them in different orders. Ex:New York City, Evansville. Falphin 17:28, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Table of Contents

The only complaint I still have is that the Table of Contents is not on the Left side. A bit of a nitpick but I believe it should be kept in mind when the article is finished expanding. Falphin 22:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I fixed this by moving the image of the government house down. I also removed the sunset photo; it is essentially generic and could be anywhere; this article was getting too image-heavy and it was disrupting the layout. -- Viajero | Talk 10:51, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Chaclacayo

Sorry, feel free to remove these comments and/or reformat them, am not familiar with wikipedia at all. While looking at the Districts_of_Lima article, I noticed that some information is obviously wrong. Namely, the Chaclacayo district is a problem. if you look at the spanish & english versions for Chaclacayo, you will see that the map mentions that district at a different location within Lima. I remember seeing a map on the net that shows it at the location of the spanish map. But I really don't know.

Fixed. --StarbucksFreak 18:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Tren Urbano

It is important to be noted that the Tren Urbano does not only serve the purpose of linking the financial districts but also has seven more lines planned that will run around the whole city. Also important is the reason of the system not being subterranean because of strong seismic activity and important touristical and cultural locations being underground such as the Catacombs and St. Francis' Monestary.

I removed

The following text inserted by anon. It shows a clear POV and may be factually incorrect. If it can be verified and wikified please readd this information. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 01:26, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Text

Lima has brilliant sunshine from December to May, when humidity goes up to 70 percent. The year-round temperature is characterized by a spring-like mildness. From June to November the weather becomes cloudy and humidity reaches 90 percent. The sun, however, is always shining in Chosica - 15 miles to the east and 2600 feet above sea level.

Fall: Temperature approx. 15C. Begins in May. Winter: Temperature approx. 13C. Begins in June. Spring: Temperature approx. 17C. Begins in late September. Summer: Temperature approx. 24C. Begins in December.

Lima is the largest city in the Western Hemisphere, and the second largest in the world after Cairo, that is located in a desert.

Lima province vs city vs metropolitana region

The population figure for Lima seems inflated. Is there a primary reference (i.e. direct link to a census office page) for the current figure? Also, it is unclear as to exactly what definition of Lima is being referred to here. The article seems to be about Lima province but only 30 out of the 43 districts? How is that different from the Lima province article? I will try and look for the primary sources and change the figures later unless someone does it first. Polaron 01:04, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Lima the city/capital is inside Lima Province. Merging them would be the equivolent of merging New York City into the New York State article.--Jersey Devil 03:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

But don't they have the same government? Is there a separate provincial government from the city government? This is more like Washington, DC merging with the District of Columbia rather than your New York example, I think. There are no statistics for a "Lima City" in INEI. There is the province and then the Cercado district, but nothing in between. Polaron 03:26, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

IMO merging would not help the reader, but rather confuse some. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 07:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Would it not help the reader if they learn that the city and the province are the same? What are we going to include in the province article that is not in the city article? The government does not have separate statistics for "Lima City". Polaron 12:09, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The reason the government doesn't have such stats is because Lima is not formally a city, but a conurbation of thirty districts. That's why when I created the Lima Province article I clearly stated that the 13 other districts do NOT belong to Lima. The Lima Province, thus, is definately not the same thing as the city. No Lima resident would ever tell you that a resident of Santa María del Mar lives in what is coloquially known as the city of Lima. --StarbucksFreak 00:17, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

What is a Notable person born in Lima?

Hi there, I deleted Jaime Bayly from the section Notable people born in Lima. According to the dictionary notable means:

notable adj important, interesting, excellent, or unusual and therefore deserving to be noticed or mentioned.

From all the other people mentioned under the Writers subsection, Jaime Bayly doesn't fulfill the requirements stated above to be regarded as notable. He has only writen a couple of books, and had some TV-programs. --Carlosp420 03:08, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

And who are you to judge whether he qualifies as "interesting" or not? I think the fact that he has his own TV program shows that at least some people consider him to be "interesting". --StarbucksFreak 00:11, 23 April 2006 (UTC)