Talk:Lionel Messi: Difference between revisions

2005 Supercup Win

Can you remove the 2005 supercup win for Messi as he was not in any of the match day squad whereas Ronaldo didn’t receive the community shield win when he didn’t participate — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mohammadyunusp (talk • contribs) 21:08, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

There has already been a discussion and a vote it regarding this issue, and it was decided that it should be included as his Barcelona profile and the Spanish Football Association page list the honour and he was part of the squad at the time even though he didn't participate in either leg of the final. The regulations in Spanish football are different to those in English Football, where at the time medals were only given to players included in the match-day squad for a specific final, hence why C. Ronaldo's Community Shield medal is not listed. Best, Messirulez (talk) 20:11, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't recall that being the result of the discussion. As I pointed out, Messi was not part of the Barcelona 'A' team at the time of the 2005 Supercopa (he wore #30, which indicated he was in the 'B' squad), so it doesn't make sense for him to be listed as a winner of a competition he wasn't considered part of the squad for. – PeeJay 16:35, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

@PeeJay2K3: The 2005 Supercopa de España was played at the beginning of the 2005–06 season and Messi was a part of the first team, playing 25 games and scoring 8 goals that season. So there is no point in removing the medal. --Mazewaxie 10:50, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

@Mazewaxie: I think you've got confused between "being in the first team" and "being in the A team". The Spanish league has very specific regulations about who is in a club's squad and what numbers they can be assigned. Messi was assigned #30 at the start of the season, which means he was officially in the 'B' team. This is supported by the fact that his number was changed midway through the season to #19, indicating his promotion to the 'A' team. Furthermore, he was not included in the matchday squad for either leg of the Supercopa, nor the first five matches of the La Liga season (see here), which suggests he was still on the periphery of the first team. The reason I bring this up is because if you assign the 2005 Supercopa to Messi, at a time when he was still in the Barcelona 'B' team, what's to stop you from assigning it to other 'B' team members? Or is Messi just a special exception? If the latter, that is a fallacy called special pleading and we should dismiss that idea out of hand. And if we include all the 'B' team members, why not include 'C' team members too? Since the Spanish league has such a clear squad system, I think it makes sense to limit assigning honours to just the 'A' team, and Messi wasn't in it. – PeeJay 13:12, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

I mean if Barcelona official website and other reliable websites (like BBC for example) assign the cup to him I don't see the problem, there are reliable sources that support that. It's not like it has randomly been decided to assign the medal to him. He had already played 7 games with the first team in the previous season as well. I understand your point though. --Mazewaxie 13:19, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

You say "it's not like it has randomly been decided to assign the medal to him", but that's exactly what is happening. Messi wasn't involved in the 2005 Supercopa in any way whatsoever, he wasn't part of the senior squad, and yet people have randomly decided to say, "Oh yeah, Messi definitely won that title..." – PeeJay 13:48, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Now that I checked he was on the first team that season, since he played his last game with the B team months before the Supercup, and, as you said, he changed is number midway through the 2005–06 season. You can't say that "people have randomly decided to say", because sources support this. Messi was part of the first team, it's not like he only played with the B team at that point. He played with both. --Mazewaxie 13:59, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Are the sources not written by people? Clearly people have "randomly decided" that the honour should be given to him because there's nothing to back it up. Nothing. And yes, he played with both teams, but he was registered as a player of Barcelona B. He was of course eligible to play for Barcelona A - that's how the Spanish league registration system works - but he was officially a B team player at the time of the Supercopa. – PeeJay 14:38, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

He was officially a first team player too at the time of the Supercopa, since he debuted in 2004. --Mazewaxie 14:47, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Not "officially", no. As I have explained, 'A' team players in Spain have to wear numbers 1-25, but Messi wore #30, which denotes him as a 'B' team player. He was not "officially" part of the 'A' team until his number was changed to #19 in January 2006. – PeeJay 14:51, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Should be removed as he was not in the matchday squad. Was discussed at Bale and Ronaldo with the result being removed, and i think it was the same here. Kante4 (talk) 16:51, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

There has already been a discussion, and more people voted to keep the 2005 Supercopa title in his list of honours than those who voted to remove it, so I think that the case is closed. You can look it up in the archives if you don't believe me. We've already discussed the issues with using the shirt numbers as proof that he wasn't part of the first team, as there isn't any information from reliable sources which confirm that permanent first team members wore shirts 1–25 in Spanish football, even though Messi did wear the shirt number 30 during the 2005–06 season. It is known however that Messi had already signed a professional contract with the club at the end of the 2004–05 season. The official organiser of the competition also credits him with the medal, so I feel like it is difficult to argue with that, even though it is unusual for him to receive a title in which he did not appear and for which he was not called up. Best, Messirulez (talk) 14:49, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Okay, look, I know it's weak evidence as I don't have access to the La Liga regulations on squad numbers, but I've scanned through La Liga squad lists from the last 20 years or so, and there has never been a first-team player who wore a number higher than 25 unless they were able to be registered as a 'B' or 'C' team player. As I pointed out, Messi's number was changed midway through the season in 2005-06, which indicates a change in his squad status, as he wouldn't have otherwise been allowed to do that. The squad number rules aren't the same in England, but the same sort of thing happens with leaving talented youngsters out of the registered 'A' team because it frees up a spot in the squad for another more experienced player. I'm sorry you've not come across this rule before, but it does exist and it is evidence that Messi was not part of the Barcelona 'A' team at the start of 2005-06, and hence shouldn't be attributed with having won the 2005 Supercopa. – PeeJay 12:39, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

I just want to clarify that I don't disagree with you, and generally I would agree that a player who doesn't appear in the competition shouldn't be credited with the title, but in this case as the official organiser of the competition credits him with the title, I feel like that's the best information we have. And unfortunately on here we need to have things cited reliably, which can be frustrating when one knows something to be true, but when one cannot find a source to back in up. Best, Messirulez (talk) 13:02, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• LIONEL MESSI - zona San Siro - Milano - Italy.JPG

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:51, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

ESPYS Award 2019

On Individual/Award, can you please put Best International Men’s Soccer Player. He won the award. JoseNike (talk) 09:03, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Anyone able to fix the Messi series below the infobox?

It’s been vandalised. Nampa DC (talk) 20:05, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

The template was vandalised. All fixed now! -- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 20:11, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Cheers. Nampa DC (talk) 20:48, 17 July 2019 (UTC)