I'm not certain how to add a column to the chart of veeps, but if someone wants to insert their places of interments here, I can provide that info. mets5orioles3@yahoo.com <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.126.171.45|69.126.171.45]] ([[User talk:69.126.171.45|talk]]) 16:09, 8 June 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
{{Old moves
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==Foster not "acting"==
| title1 = List of vice presidents of the United States
| title2 = List of Vice Presidents of the United States
There's no such thing as an "acting vice president", and the line that identifies Lafayette Foster as such should be removed. Foster was just President of the Senate -- which put him next in the line of Presidential succession with the Vice Presidency vacant, but certainly doesn't make him acting VP. I'd do it myself but I'm not sure how how the wikitable syntax works. --[[User:Jfruh|Jfruh]] ([[User talk:Jfruh|talk]]) 11:49, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
| list =
* RM, List of Vice Presidents of the United States → List of vice presidents of the United States, '''No consensus''', 21 May 2018, [[Talk:List_of_vice_presidents_of_the_United_States/Archive_1#Requested_move_21_May_2018|discussion]]
==Vandalized with Palin entry==
* RM, List of Vice Presidents of the United States → List of vice presidents of the United States, '''Moved''', 27 July 2019, [[Talk:List_of_presidents_of_the_United_States/Archive_13#Requested_move_27_July_2019|discussion]]
}}
Someone placed Sarah Palin on the page as the VP elect as opposed to Joe Biden. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/76.213.237.158|76.213.237.158]] ([[User talk:76.213.237.158|talk]]) 02:13, 6 November 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
{{User:MiszaBot/config
|archiveheader = {{talk archive navigation}}
Probably part of the same vandalization that listed Palin as VP-elect: the number of Republican VPs was erroneously raised to 21, and the number of Democrats lowered to 16. The current numbers (20 and 17, respectively) are correct; Biden is not yet counted, as he has yet to take office.
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[[User:Hodsthorn|Hodsthorn]] ([[User talk:Hodsthorn|talk]]) 21:46, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
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== Fixed up dates ==
|archive = Talk:List of vice presidents of the United States/Archive %(counter)d
}}
Thank goodness I checked up on this article. The dates were incorrect, they didn't correspond with the VP biographies on Wikipedia. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 00:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
:I had to change March 3 to March 4, as well as Tyler, Fillmore, A.Johnson & Arthur's terms & the resulting ''vacancy'' dates. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 00:08, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
== VP vs VP Elect vs. VP Presumptive ==
Yes, it is a nit-picky point... and the press gets this wrong all the time... but as an encyclopedia we should know better and use correct terms. The way the system in the US works... While Obama and Biden won on election night, they do not actually become President ''Elect'' and Vice President ''Elect'' until the Electorial College elects them and reports that election to Congress. That has not happened yet. At the moment, therefore, they are simply President and Vice President ''Presumptive''. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 16:32, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
:In practical terms, and according to US Election Commission regulations, they are correctly referred to "President/Vice President-ELECT. There is not any legal distinction that is styled "presumptive" for someone who is already duly elected in which the election is not being contested. The FEC recognizes the winner of the popular electors of each state so certified (which they now are) as ELECT, not PRESUMPTIVE. I have changed it back to its proper legal style of title. 'President Presumptive" and "Vice-President Presumptive" titles simply do not exist in the United States and are not properly used in any context in which an election has already been held, and the opponents have conceded. That is when "ELECT" is used, and the holding of the formality of the Electoral College's tabulation of Electoral Votes reported by the States is irrelevant to the use of the "ELECT" designation. [[User:Themoodyblue|Themoodyblue]] ([[User talk:Themoodyblue|talk]]) 19:00, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
::Hmmm... Do you have a citation for that? It goes counter to what I learned in school (which, I freely admit could be wrong or outdated... I would certainly bow to an authoritive source.) [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 19:55, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
:::We've gone through this over and over again. Look in the archives for the Obama page. The government defines the terms to include the "presumptive" situation. There is no issue with using the term "President-elect" and "Vice President-elect" here. [[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> 20:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
==Middle names==
I undid the removal of all middle names of VPs. Some middle names were frequently used and well known to the public in the era of their incumbancy, like Richard Milhaus Nixon, Lyndon Baines Johnson, Charles Gates Dawes, and John Nance Garner. I would keep at least these. [[User:Edison|Edison]] ([[User talk:Edison|talk]]) 02:06, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
:The point is not whether people knew of their middle names, but whether they were used. I didn't change Garner at all. I concede that LBJ is reasonable, but the other two are better known as "Richard Nixon" and "Charles G. Dawes". Also, you reverted a completely unrelated edit for no reason. -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 02:18, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
== Sorting bug ==
The sorting of the dates in this list doesn't work correctly. /[[User:Slarre|Slarre]] ([[User talk:Slarre|talk]]) 14:45, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
:Fixed. [[User:Geraldk|Geraldk]] ([[User talk:Geraldk|talk]]) 15:54, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
::Thanks! Looks very good. /[[User:Slarre|Slarre]] ([[User talk:Slarre|talk]]) 16:33, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
==One VP's famous evaluation of the value of the office==
I added the famous and often Bowdlerized quote from [[John Nance Garner]] that the Vice Presidency "isn't worth a pitcher of warm piss." This was Texan Garner's [http://books.google.com/books?id=9ee85ulVI68C&pg=PT179&dq=garner+warm+piss&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&as_brr=0&cd=2#v=onepage&q=garner%20warm%20piss&f=false advice to Texan Lyndon Johnson in 1960], when Johnson was considering leaving the Senate to become VP. The earlier Bowdlerized version substituted "spit" for "piss." The "piss" version gets [http://books.google.com/books?as_q=garner+warm+piss&num=10&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES&lr=&as_vt=&as_auth=&as_pub=&as_sub=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&as_isbn=&as_issn=255 hits] at Google book search. Another version substitutes "pitcher" for "bucket" of piss[http://books.google.com/books?id=d6JZryGvfxYC&pg=PA234&dq=garner+warm+piss&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&as_brr=0&cd=4#v=onepage&q=garner%20warm%20piss&f=false]. [[User:Edison|Edison]] ([[User talk:Edison|talk]]) 01:25, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
:On hindsight, Garner's advice proved to be dead wrong, as the events at Dallas metamorphosed the pitcher of piss into a fountain of champagne for over five years.--[[User:Jeanne boleyn|Jeanne Boleyn]] ([[User talk:Jeanne boleyn|talk]]) 08:34, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
::Had LBJ followed Garner's advice and refused the VP, who would JFK have put on his ticket instead?--[[User:Jeanne boleyn|Jeanne Boleyn]] ([[User talk:Jeanne boleyn|talk]]) 19:27, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
==November 22, 1963 to January 20, 1965==
I never realised that the office of the Vice-Presidency was vacant for over 13 months, and comprised the entire year of 1964. What would have happened if Lyndon B. Johnson had died during that time? Why did he have to wait until the 1964 election to name Hubert Humphrey?--[[User:Jeanne boleyn|Jeanne Boleyn]] ([[User talk:Jeanne boleyn|talk]]) 08:30, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
:The next person in line of succession would have been sworn in as President for the balance of the term. Per the 1945 succession law, that person would have been the Speaker of the House. From January 9, 1963 through January 3, 1971 the Speaker of the House was John W. McCormack, who who turned 73 in December of 1964, and who was 79 and seemingly quite frail when he left office. There was concern whether he was up to the job during the period he was next in line. If a person in the line of succession did not feel up to the demands of the job, or just did not want the job, he could refuse it and the next in line would become President. [[User:Edison|Edison]] ([[User talk:Edison|talk]]) 14:58, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
::And that person would be? I forget who comes after the Speaker of the House.--[[User:Jeanne boleyn|Jeanne Boleyn]] ([[User talk:Jeanne boleyn|talk]]) 15:02, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
:::The problem with McCormack ducking the job is that it would have next gone to Senate President Pro Tem [[Carl Hayden]], who was 86 years old and feeble in 1963 when Kennedy was assassinated [http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=xHURAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xOgDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5145,4659011&dq=president+john-mccormack&hl=en]. The rules were later changed so that a new VP could be installed. [[User:Edison|Edison]] ([[User talk:Edison|talk]]) 15:08, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
::::I hadn't realised how many old men there were in the presidental succession. It's no wonder Kennedy was acclaimed for his youth. In point of fact, he was the first US president born in the 20th century!--[[User:Jeanne boleyn|Jeanne Boleyn]] ([[User talk:Jeanne boleyn|talk]]) 17:38, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
:::::There's some confusion about the ''1947'' [[Presidential Succession Act]]. Does the ''next-in-line'' (in the event of a Vice Presiential vacancy) become President ''or'' merely assume the duties as Acting President & then resign his/her previous post. The confusion is due to the fact that the Presidential succession has never went beyond the Vice President. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 19:00, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
:::::PS: Due to the old age of the House Speaker & Senate prez pro temp, the 25th amendment was passed in 1967. The 25th amendment, gives the Prez the right to nominate a new VP (who needs majority vote from House & Senate, to become VP). [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 19:03, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
== Updated table format ==
Explaining [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=List_of_Vice_Presidents_of_the_United_States&oldid=379314941 this change] to the table. I'm trying to update the table to FL standards. It's the same format that the 19 FL governor lists use, including the recently promoted FL lists of [[List of Governors of Utah|Utah]] and [[List of Governors of Florida|Florida]]. No information was removed from the article.
The updated table addresses the following comments that were raised at the [[Wikipedia:Featured_list_candidates/List_of_Vice_Presidents_of_the_United_States/archive2|last]] non promoted FLC nomination.
# The VP table is consistent with the [[List of Presidents of the United States]].
# Adding a second reference to each Vice President so that the date of the terms are specified.
# The entire row is no longer colored.
[[User:Bgwhite|Bgwhite]] ([[User talk:Bgwhite|talk]]) 00:43, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
== George H.W. Bush born in Massachusetts, not Texas ==
This entry has what appears to be an error.
According to the Wikipedia entry on George H.W. Bush, he was born in Massachusetts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_h.w._bush
The List of Vice Presidents of the United States shows him being born in Texas. In fact, he didn't move there until after his stint in the armed forces and college.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vice_Presidents_of_the_United_States <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:JohnAKeith|JohnAKeith]] ([[User talk:JohnAKeith|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/JohnAKeith|contribs]]) 18:51, 17 May 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:The list says no such thing. As is universal for lists of US presidents and vice presidents, the state listed is the state he was elected from unless otherwise noted. George H. W. Bush was elected from Texas, not Massachusetts, just as Joe Biden was elected from Delaware, not Pennsylvania. -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 19:33, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
::My confusion came from the sentence beforehand, which states, "The Vice-Presidents have originated from 21 states. More than half of them have come from just five states, New York (11), Indiana (5), Massachusetts (4), Kentucky (3), and Texas (3)."
::I thought that "originated" meant "place of birth".
::And, it may be universal ... except when the list is "Presidents by place of birth."
::http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_by_place_of_birth <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:JohnAKeith|JohnAKeith]] ([[User talk:JohnAKeith|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/JohnAKeith|contribs]]) 19:43, 17 May 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::The word "originated" could be changed to "elected from", but your second point is bizarrely pointed given that I said "unless otherwise noted". A list of presidents by place of birth is clearly otherwise noted, so I really don't understand why you felt the need to take that tone. Finally, please sign your talk page contributions with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>), and indent your responses to others contributions with colons (:). -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 19:54, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
== John Tyler's Bar ==
The Row where John Tyler is on is all of by one space. Is this supposed to happen? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.180.171.44|71.180.171.44]] ([[User talk:71.180.171.44|talk]]) 15:48, 1 December 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Somebody messed with it. How does it look now? ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 02:48, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Alright, its good, thanks. [[Special:Contributions/71.180.171.44|71.180.171.44]] ([[User talk:71.180.171.44|talk]]) 14:16, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
== Not Every Word Has To Start With A Capital Letter You Know ==
Just saying. [[User:Richard75|Richard75]] ([[User talk:Richard75|talk]]) 16:36, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm FED UP with trying to figure out how to edits these tables. If possible, would somebody add to the sections of the re-elected Vice Presidents (Garner, Nixon, Agnew, Bush, Gore, Cheney & Biden), that they ''were'' Vice President at the time of their reelections? [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 01:05, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
:I've done the opposite. It makes no sense to split the terms and say the VP was VP when elected VP; the fact of re-election covers that, and adding it only risks creating confusion. -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 10:49, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
::I'm not certain who added it to the entries of Adams, Clinton, Tompkins, Calhoun & Marshall. However, a similiar thing has been done at [[List of Presidents of the United States]] - using ''President'' in the entries of reelected Presidents. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 14:21, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
== Previous office ==
A lot of these entries say "None" and then state an office -- is this intentional and if so what is it supposed to mean? Or a mistake? [[User:Richard75|Richard75]] ([[User talk:Richard75|talk]]) 15:27, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
:As noted in the heading, the column is supposed to be telling you what office the person held at the time of election. So when it says none, it is saying the person held no office at that time, but then notes the last office the person held (if any). I'm not sure that is a reasonable thing to do. It would make more sense to me to simply list ''all'' the offices a person held, regardless of when. What do you think? -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 20:23, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
::I agree, or at least their most important offices anyway. [[User:Richard75|Richard75]] ([[User talk:Richard75|talk]]) 10:20, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
::My only concern would be if there's alot of previous offices, which would clog up a Veeps section. John Tyler, Andrew Johnson & George HW. Bush, come to mind. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 14:49, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
:::Maybe just limit it to thei rbest two, e.g. for Tyker president pro tempore and Governor of Virginia. [[User:Richard75|Richard75]] ([[User talk:Richard75|talk]]) 20:13, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
::::I'd accept deletion of the whole column, since those offices aren't required per qualifcations for the Vice Presidency. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:26, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
:::I don't think it would be that bad if we limit it to major offices. Tyler and Johnson, for instance, would be Senator, Representative and Governor. Bush would be Representative, DCI, and UN Ambassador (and possibly the China post). I don't think that is too unwieldy. -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 22:28, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
::::That's acceptable. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 22:58, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
:::::I'll make a start tonight or tomorrow unless someone else wants to do it. -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 23:48, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
::::::BTW, what's to be done with [[List of Presidents of the United States]]? It has ''President'' listed in ''previous office'' column of reelected Presidents. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 01:00, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
:::::::The lists are formatted differently do I don't think it matters. On the other list they have listed each term of office distinctly, while the VP list is a list of individuals. [[User:Richard75|Richard75]] ([[User talk:Richard75|talk]]) 12:01, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
::::::::No, the same ridiculousness was present here. I've fixed it. -[[User:Rrius|Rrius]] ([[User talk:Rrius|talk]]) 05:25, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
== Joe Biden ==
After 3hrs of trying to edit in Biden's ''reelction''? I'm throwing in the towel. If anybody knows how to edit these tables? please add in the 2012 election. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:28, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
== Miscellaneous - VPs who later became Presidents ==
Under "Miscellaneous" in item 1 is states, None of the twenty-two who, later, became a president, began their presidency by election, and only Lyndon B. Johnson of them was later elected."
However, the list of "Vice presidents who becames presidents" contains only 14 entries and of them, the following are shown as having been elected as President:
John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
Martin Van Buren
Richard Nixon (although not serving as VP at the time)
George H. W. Bush
This is in conflict with the comment above that none of them began their presidency by election (and the total numbers don't tally).
I'm not American, and I don't have suitable references to determine which is right, but it seems to me that the comment under "Miscellaneous" is wrong.
[[User:PhilBrownOz|PhilBrownOz]] ([[User talk:PhilBrownOz|talk]]) 22:52, 26 December 2012 (UTC)PhilBrownOz
:Not a conflict, Adams, Jefferson, Van Buren, Nixon, H. W. Bush, were not of the twenty-two, they were younger than there presidents!--[[User:Maher27777|Maher27777]] ([[User talk:Maher27777|talk]]) 12:17, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
::What the paragraph is trying to say is that 22 VPs were older than the presidents they served under. Out of those 22, a smaller number became president, none of them by election. I will see if I can re-word it to make it more clear. [[User:Richard75|Richard75]] ([[User talk:Richard75|talk]]) 14:39, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
:::You're right Richard. But since VP is chosen by a presidential candidate, or by his counselor, I think it's not a coincidence that almost half of VPs were older than their presidents! Why George W. Bush chose the sick old Cheney to be VP? Why Obama chose Biden who may turn 74 in [[United States Presidential Election, 2016|2016]]? Why some presidents chose VPs over sixty years old?! Generally speaking, old VP has little chance to be president!
::::There have been 24 president/vice president pairs in which the V.P. was older. From the least age difference to the greatest, they are:
:::# Lincoln/Johnson -- 45 days
:::# Cleveland/Stevenson -- 1.40 years
:::# Taft/Sherman -- 1.89 years
:::# Garfield/Arthur -- 2.12 years
:::# Van Buren/Johnson -- 2.13 years
:::# Wilson/Marshall -- 2.79 years
:::# Hayes/Wheeler -- 3.26 years
:::# Polk/Dallas -- 3.31 years
:::# Jefferson/Clinton -- 3.72 years
:::# Ford/Rockefeller -- 5.02 years
:::# Bush/Cheney -- 5.43 years
:::# Truman/Barkley -- 6.45 years
:::# Roosevelt/Fairbanks -- 6.46 years
:::# Madison/Gerry -- 6.66 years
:::# Coolidge/Dawes -- 6.85 years
:::# Kennedy/Johnson -- 8.75 years
:::# Harrison/Morton -- 9.26 years
:::# Grant/Wilson -- 10.19 years
:::# Madison/Clinton -- 11.64 years
:::# Roosevelt/Garner -- 13.19 years
:::# Hoover/Curtis -- 14.54 years
:::# Cleveland/Hendricks -- 17.53 years
:::# Pierce/King -- 18.63 years
:::# Obama/Biden -- 18.71 years
::::[[User:HankW512|HankW512]] ([[User talk:HankW512|talk]]) 22:25, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
== Deaths in Office ==
I think it might be interesting to note in the article that November 22, 1963 was the first time in U.S. history that the total number of Presidents who died in office exceeded the total number of Vice Presidents who died in office, and that the last time a U.S. Vice President died in office was over a century ago (James S. Sherman on October 30, 1912).
(On a similar note, the longest period without a U.S. President dying in office is April 30, 1789, the first day of the first presidency, to April 4, 1841, when William Henry Harrison died, but that record is due to be tied on October 26, 2015 and broken the following day.)
[[User:HankW512|HankW512]] ([[User talk:HankW512|talk]]) 21:36, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
:I've added the first bit. [[User:Richard75|Richard75]] ([[User talk:Richard75|talk]]) 10:27, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
== Federalist Color ==
As currently the standard on Wikipedia for the Color for the Federalist Party is Peach, (and it is my hope it will continue to be), I request that it be changed to Peach, {{u|Spartan7W}}. [[User:Avrand6|AvRand]] ([[User talk:Avrand6|talk]]) 04:33, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
The Color for the Federalist Party is still incorrect. I again request it be changed to the peach it is supposed to be [[User:Avrand6|AvRand]] ([[User talk:Avrand6|talk]]) 20:42, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
== Pictures ==
{{u|Spartan7W}},
I Changed to more accurate painting of Thomas Jefferson as it was painted closer to his Vice Presidency, Changed Van Buren and Tylers Paintings to more detailed ones, Changed a Photo of Fillmore that had bad lighting, Changed pic of Hobart so that it actually faces forwards, same with James Sherman, Changed to less dark and easier photo of Garner, switched photo of LBJ to more accurate one for time period, Switched to higher quality photo of Humphrey. Also we still need to switch the black to peach for consistency. [[User:Avrand6|AvRand]] ([[User talk:Avrand6|talk]]) 22:35, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
:{{ping|Avrand6}} The portrait I had of Jefferson ''was'' from his Vice Presidency (1800), yours is from 6 years before it started. Van Buren's ''was'' from his Vice Presidential era (he hadn't aged nearly as much), yours is from 11 years after leaving office as VP. The one of LBJ ''was'' from his Senate Majority Leader days, compare to yours (1950), and the one of Humphrey is not portrait quality, one I had of him ''is'' the official White House photograph.
== Can someone semi-protect this page please? ==
An anonymous IP keeps messing with it. Thanks. [[User:Richard75|Richard75]] ([[User talk:Richard75|talk]]) 13:32, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
== Refined table format ==
I’m in the process of preparing updates for the VPOTUS table so that it is consistent with the [[List of Presidents of the United States]] table. Several formatting changes have been made to that table in recent months by consensus and through conversations which can be viewed on that article’s [[Talk:List of Presidents of the United States|talk page]]. I'm seeking input from watchers of this page before I post; please, [[User:Drdpw/sandbox1|take a look]] and post comments here. Cheers. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 19:48, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
:Very good! I especially like the way the vacancies are displayed, though I would make a few tweaks:
:* (Balance of unexpired term) should be (balance of unexpected term)
:* (When successor sworn–in) should be (until successor sworn in)
:* It might be nice to use a contrasting background color (gray?) for the vacancy lines
:* I'd prefer to eliminate the (continuation)s in the "Election" columns. I see two ways to do this:
:*# Break the vacancy line into two boxes, colspan=6 before the "Election" column and colspan=1 after; or
:*# Swap the "Election" and "Previous service" columns. In this case, the corresponding swap should also be done in the list of Presidents.
:I may see some other things later, but this looks great! Thanks! [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 04:22, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
::Thanks[[User:YBG|YBG]]; I'll be tinkering with the design a bit over the next few days.
::Anyone else have any observations or suggestions? [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 15:01, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
:::Update before I edit the page (in a day or two)<br>
:::* Shortened "office vacant" to read simply ''Office vacant M/D/Y to M/D/Y'' as the duration and reason for the vacancy are clearly indicated by notes.
:::* Shaded the vacancy rows.
:::* Eliminated the "(continuation)s" in the vacancy lines' "Election" columns. Ended up simply leaving the cells blank, as I ran into formatting difficulties when attempting to break the vacancy line into two boxes and when attempting to swap the "Election" and "Previous service" columns. What happened was that the "Election" columns slipped out of proper alignment every time (just as it is in the article currently for the elections of 1808 and 1972). Blank lines should be alright here as the election number sequence is unbroken and clearly visible.
:::Again, any observations or suggestions are welcome. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 23:03, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Drdpw}} Very good, so far. If you need a hand with the reformatting, I wouldn't hesitate.--[[User:Neve-selbert|Neve]][[Special:Contributions/Neve-selbert|–]][[User talk:Neve-selbert|selbert]] 10:41, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Here are a couple notes about the reformatted table I’ve just now posted:
*As is now the case with the presidents list, the "state" column is removed from the VP list, as is the "party color" column for presidents (individual notes now denote where the party of the POTUS & VPOTUS differed); additionally, the "party color" column for vice presidents is moved (as are a few headings).
*In the "party color" column for vice presidents I chose to use the current [[Template:Democratic Party (United States)/meta/color|Democratic Party meta color]] ({{color box|#3333FF}}) rather than the color currently used in the "party color" column for presidents on the presidents list page ({{color box|#34AAE0}}). I did so because {{color box|#3333FF}} is the ''status quo'' meta color. There is currently a discussion at [[Template talk:Democratic Party (United States)/meta/color#Rfc: #3333FF or #34AAE0]] on which color should be used as the meta color for the U.S. Democratic Party. Please join that discussion if you wish to express your view on this topic.
Thanks [[User:YBG|YBG]] and [[User talk:Neve-selbert| Neve-selbert]] for your input. Cheers. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 20:25, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
: I've [[WP:BB|boldly]] moved some columns around - the # column rightward and the previous-service column leftward. I'm not sure about the end result, I'll leave that to others to decide whether it is an improvement or not. And it may be that only one of the changes should have been made. Anyway, let's discuss it. Feel free to revert if you wish. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 06:58, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
:: [[User:YBG|YBG]], I like what you did to the table! The previous service column fits (IMO) very well where you've placed it. The number column goes well in its new location too. Thanks for your input. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 22:49, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
=== NS changes ===
{{ping|YBG|Drdpw}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Vice_Presidents_of_the_United_States&oldid=740080665 This revision] could be reviewed. Note: I made the changes in good faith and I apologise for any disruption.--[[User:Neve-selbert|Nevé]][[Special:Contributions/Neve-selbert|–]][[User talk:Neve-selbert|selbert]] 23:50, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
: The problem is that the needed corrections you made, and even the dates of service you added, were made together with numerous unnecessary formatting changes (such as moving notations and adding line breaks), and with changes of things specifically discussed here on the talk page, like the Democratic Party shading and the shading of vacancies in the vice-presidency. Sorry for ''throwing the baby out w/the bath water'' (so to speak), and I do know that the changes you made were made in good faith. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 00:36, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Here's my attenpt to catalog all of the changes and my opinion:
{| class="wikitable sortable"
! Group !! Change !! YBG
|-
| General || 1.1 Add/remove spaces which make no difference in display
| YBG:Why?
|-
| General || 1.2 Add "plainrowheaders" to "class=wikitable"
| YBG:Why?
|-
| Legend || 2.1 Change markup from multi-line to single line
| YBG:No
|-
| Legend || 2.2 Change Dem color from WP meta color to hard-coded color
| YBG:No
|-
| Legend || 2.3 Potentially other changes I haven't figured out
| YBG:?
|-
| VPs cols || 3.1 Eliminate full birthdate of living VPs
| YBG:OK
|-
| Prev svc || 4.1 Line break between ordinal and office
| YBG:OK
|-
| Prev svc || 4.2 Include ordinal inside link to previous office
| YBG:No
|-
| Prev svc || 4.3 Add line break and date range
| YBG:OK
|-
| Prev svc || 4.4 King: Change from AL senator to PA
| YBG:?
|-
| Prev svc || 4.5 Colfax: Change from 8th to 9th cong dist
| Vac rows || | 8.4 Use "!" not "|" (might add bold & bg color)
| YBG:OK
|-
| Vac rows || 8.5 Change "–" to "&ndash;"
| YBG:Why?
|}
I have purposely added my opinion as briefly as possible in the above table. If you want me to expand, please ask and I'll explain below. Please add your own opinions VERY BRIEFLY in the above table. If you need to say anything more than a few characters, please summarize above as I have done, and add additional details here, referencing the number. Thanks! [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 03:50, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
:I have restored the corrections you made, to William King's state and to the congressional district Schuyler Colfax represented, and the birth dating, year only and age, of living presidents. Let's leave the Democratic Party "meta color" in use while the discussion regarding what color should be used on Wikipedia for the Democratic Party is ongoing. Also, the shading for the vacancy rows is intentional to set them apart. Thanks. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 06:58, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
== Incoming VP ==
There is a discussion going on at {{sectionlink|List of Presidents of the United States|Vice President}} about how to incorporate the VP-elect into this table. The discussion is over there so that the POTUS-elect there and VP-elect here will be treated the same way. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 08:18, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
== Vacancy lines ==
In the [[special:permalink/749151949|latest version]], I have expanded the wording of the vacancy lines so that the extended footnotes are no longer needed. The wording includes wikilinks for further information, which are repeated in every case so that the reader can navigate the wikilink from any line. The MOS allows such repeat .ed wikilinks within tables. Feel free to discuss further improvements here, or if anyone thinks I've been too [[WP:BB|bold]], feel free to follow [[WP:BRD]] and revert before the discussion. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 19:19, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
== States--a new column ==
I think this list would be enhanced by adding the state that each VP hailed from at the time of election. [[User:Unschool|<font color="52A249">'''Un'''</font>]][[User talk:Unschool|<font color="23CE40">'''sch'''</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Unschool|<font color="7ED324">'''ool'''</font>]] 05:39, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
:For the Presidents, there was a "State" column in the [[List of Presidents of the United States]], but it was changed back and forth for Presidents who were associated with more than one state. Consequently, information about Presidents by state is listed in [[List of Presidents of the United States by home state]]. That list, as I understand it, includes not only the Presidents' state of birth but also the state from which they were elected. I agree that this information for the VPs would also be interesting, but for the same reasons, I think it would be best to not include it in this table, but in a separate article. I do not believe that such a list article exists. I would fully support its creation. Thank you for your desire to help improve this online encyclopedia. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 06:11, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
== VP King inauguration ==
[[William R. King]] was not inaugurated on March 4, 1853 with President Pierce, but 20 days later on March 24, 1853. Should the table reflect this by changing the date and adding a vacancy line (or lengthening the previous one)? [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 08:14, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
:{{ping|YBG}} He wasn't sworn in until March 24, but he still officially became VP on March 4. A note should be included, however. [[User:MB298|MB298]] ([[User talk:MB298|talk]]) 08:46, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
::{{ping|MB298}} There is already a note to that effect in the dates column. Is there a reason why this situation is different from the situation of John Adams, the first Vice President? I don't hold a strong view one way or the other. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 08:48, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
:::MB298 is spot on regarding the dating of King's term. Regarding the J.A. start date, using 4-21 rather then 3-4 follows the convention of using 4-30 rather then 3-4 for Washington. They were the first, and while their offices came into force and their terms did in fact begin on 3-4-89, most lists I've seen over the years use the inauguration date for them instead. Bear in mind also that the election results were not known to Adams or Washington until mid-April. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 13:46, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
::::The case of Prez Washington & Vice Prez Adams terms beginning ''after'' March 4, 1789 was due to that the Federal Government wasn't fully assembled yet. After that, the presidential & vice presidential terms always ended/began on March 4 of the year after the election, up until 1937. Therefore, we should ''indeed'' have Vice Prez King's term beginning on March 4, 1853. BTW, many Presidents & Vice Presidents took their oath of office on dates other then when they actually took office. Examples: Some of the Presidents who succeeded to office & some of the Presidents who refuse to take their oaths on Sunday. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 14:42, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
:::::{{ping|MB298|Drdpw}} Thank you for the clarification. Much appreciated! [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 17:30, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
::::::King should only be counted from when he took the oath of office. A citizen does not become VPOTUS (or POTUS) until they have been inaugurated. King was vice-president elect for twenty days longer than normal but not vice-president until March 24, 1853. -- [[User:Millionsandbillions|Millionsandbillions]] ([[User talk:Millionsandbillions|talk]]) 18:53, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
:::::::Actually, no; King became Vice President on March 4, 1853, and by Act of Congress he was permitted to take his oath of office later. A citizen becomes Vice President or President when the Constitution says they do, which since 1937 is January 20 (was March 4 before then). What a citizen cannot do however, is ''enter the Execution of his Office'' until they take the oath. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 19:19, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
== RE:Start of terms for Tyler, Fillmore, Arthur, and Coolidge ==
There is a discussion currently underway at '''Talk:List of Presidents of the United States''' ([[Talk:List of Presidents of the United States#Start of terms for Tyler, Fillmore, Arthur, and Coolidge|HERE]]) regarding what start date should be used for the presidency of John Tyler, Millard Fillmore, Chester Arthur and Calvin Coolidge ... the date their predecessor died OR the date each was sworn into office. All contributors/watchers to/of this page are invited to participate in that discussion, as the consensus reached there would, out of necessity (for consistency), impact the dates used in this article's table. Your participation will help broaden the eventual consensus. Thanks. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 19:55, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
:Fillmore, Arthur and Coolidge were all sworn in on the same day as their predecessors died. the last famously in the middle of the night by his father.
::Sorry, but you are mistaken. Please read: [[Inauguration of Millard Fillmore]], [[Inauguration of Chester A. Arthur]], and [[First inauguration of Calvin Coolidge]]. Taylor died on July 9 and Fillmore was inaugurated on July 10. Garfield died on September 19 and Arthur was inaugurated on September 20. Harding died on August 2 and Coolidge was inaugurated on August 3. They may have taken place less than twenty-four hours apart but they were not on the same calendar date. -- [[User:Millionsandbillions|Millionsandbillions]] ([[User talk:Millionsandbillions|talk]]) 18:46, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
:::Many times, incoming US Presidents have taken their oath not ''exactly'' at the moment their term began (usually a few minutes after). Do we say the presidency was vacant at those times, every 4 years? [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 23:48, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
==Confederate Secretary of War John C. Breckenridge==
I tried to mention this, and there seems to be no consensus on the subject, just some guy who says "WE DON'T DO THIS!!!" Why? he was a cabinet secretary in a de facto country that had diplomatic relations with many countries and controlled a large amount of territory. Isn't this worth a mention at least? If a future president or vice president becomes Secretary General of the UN, would that be excluded too? John Tyler was in the Confederate Provisional Congress and was elected to the first subsequent service one. Why shouldn't THAT be mentioned? Should we tell the WHOLE story? [[User:Arglebargle79|Arglebargle79]] ([[User talk:Arglebargle79|talk]]) 02:15, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
:It seems quite appropriate to list these men's positions in the CSA. It is certainly as significant as the equivalent positions in the Union government. I say include it. However, if there has been a discussion in the past that lead to a consensus otherwise, I'd certainly want to have a look at that. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 03:19, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
:[[User:Arglebargle79|Arglebargle79]], If you're going to quote me please do so accurately. What I wrote in my edit summary was, ''Only those serving in high U.S. state or federal government positions after leaving the vice presidency are included''. The parameters for inclusion are spelled out in the introductory sentences before the table, and the services Tyler and Breckenridge rendered to the CSA government fall outside of those parameters. Be that as it may, thanks for not just reverting my revert and for initiating this discussion, as it's an important issue to hash out and reach consensus on. cheers. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 18:43, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
::FYI, decisions are made by consensus ([[Wikipedia:Consensus|WP:CONS]]), and consensus (the status-quo) is not changed by majority vote or percentage of support to do so. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 18:43, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
*'''Include CSA''' although (contrary to my above note) I'm not sure whether the standard for inclusion should be higher or lower than the standard used for Federal or State offices. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 17:04, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
*:I support the idea of separating this from the general list. As it would be a fairly sort list, it could either be a very small table or a brief paragraph. That is to say, if these offices were already included the main table, I would support an editorial [[Ordinance of Secession]]. [[User:YBG|YBG]] ([[User talk:YBG|talk]]) 19:01, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
*'''Include, but separately''' As the subject of this list article is persons who have served as VPOTUS it is fitting and appropriate that there be a list of subsequent service by these individuals to that same government, and, given the constitutional relationship between U.S. state governments and the federal government, to list their subsequent service in state government as well. Service to the CSA is different however; it was ''de facto'' a foreign government, and by serving that government Tyler & Breckenridge were repudiating the U.S. government. This being the case, their service to the Confederacy is not like the others and should not be listed with the others. Nevertheless, I've no problem with including the two in a separate table detailing ''Subsequent service to foreign governments'' (or something like that). [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 18:43, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
*'''Exclude''' The Confederation was a different country than the Union, which is what this article is about. I see no compelling argument why this article should include subsequent public service to any foreign nation. -- [[User:Millionsandbillions|Millionsandbillions]] ([[User talk:Millionsandbillions|talk]]) 18:58, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
*'''Include''' - as this article is based on individuals. Besides, it would be quite interesting to our readers, if they knew that ''two'' former US Vice Presidents latter betrayed their country (USA). [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:25, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
::[[WP:ITSINTERESTING]] is not a very convincing argument for inclusion. -- [[User:Millionsandbillions|Millionsandbillions]] ([[User talk:Millionsandbillions|talk]]) 18:34, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
::"The parameters for inclusion are spelled out in the introductory sentences before the table, and the services" If I add a mention to the introductory sentence would anyone object to adding confederate service? It's important to understanding these people's later careers. [[User:Arglebargle79|Arglebargle79]] ([[User talk:Arglebargle79|talk]]) 17:19, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
{{Outdent}}
Arglebargle79, others have already objected to doing that. I have just now made an edit to the page which may be a good compromise way forward: noting the service of Tyler and Breckinridge to the CSA in a sentence after the table of service by former VPs to the USA. Thoughts anyone? [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 17:39, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
:Could we have the same thing done for John Tyler at the [[List of Presidents of the United States]] article? [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 03:48, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
::Abolutely! Look, the thing is, is thT the list of "what they did afterwards" is about the individuals. The Civil War, is and will be forever (hopefully), a unique situation in American history. No former Vice president in over a century and a half has been in a foreign/rebel government. and @GoodDay, yes, we should mention Tyler's Confederate Congressional service in the President's list. [[User:Arglebargle79|Arglebargle79]] ([[User talk:Arglebargle79|talk]]) 14:46, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
::{{Done}} · [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]], Earlier today I inserted a note in the post-presidency section of the POTUS-list page about Tyler's service to the CSA. Cheers. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 16:49, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
== What's in a name. ==
I've no source for this & it's likely not significant enough to add to this article or the [[Vice President of the United States]] article. Anyways, [[Mike Pence]] will be the fifth consecutive US Vice President who doesn't go by his full first name. Examples: Dan, Al, Dick, Joe & Mike instead of James, Albert, Richard, Joseph & Michael. Perhaps best put in a related trivia article. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 14:18, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
:Yah, that's a pretty insignificant factoid, not to mention original research. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 14:32, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
== ''(First elected office)'' ==
The tag ''(First elected office)'' shouldn't be in the Vice Presidency column. Best put in the Prior position column. See [[List of Presidents of the United States]] discussion on this matter. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 05:19, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
== External links modified ==
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090225173126/http://www.history.com/presidents/adams to http://www.history.com/presidents/adams
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090305021547/http://www.history.com/presidents/jefferson to http://www.history.com/presidents/jefferson
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20161021144448/http://millercenter.org/president/essays/gerry-1813-vicepresident to http://millercenter.org/president/essays/gerry-1813-vicepresident
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090305021512/http://www.history.com/presidents/andrewjohnson to http://www.history.com/presidents/andrewjohnson
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for some reason there are notes attesting to the fact that tyler was kicked out of the whig party while president and that johnson switched back to the democratic party at the end of his presidency how is that germane to their vice presidencies?
that washington had no party how is that germane to the vice presidency?[[User:AmYisroelChai|עם ישראל חי]] ([[User talk:AmYisroelChai|talk]]) 15:22, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
:The Tyler & Johnson notes are there because, in the past, the labeling of their party affiliaion in the table (as both VPOTUS & POTUS) kept changed every now and again (kind-of like pictures seem to be doing these days). The Washington note—like the note beside presidents J. Adams, Jackson, & Lincoln—is there to show that this president did not share his VPs political afiliation. You see, at one time, there were 2 party affiliation columns—one for VPOTUS & one for POTUS—here and on the list of presidents page. So, when the POTUS-party column was deleted from both tables, the notes were inserted. These later notes still serve a useful purpose, I believe, and are germane to a list of vice presidents that includes party affiliation & the presidents they served under. I can't say the same for the Tyler & Johnson notes, however, especially located where they are{{snd}}the column listing Tyler's & Johnson's party affiliation while VPOTUS. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 21:45, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
:: ok ill go with the washington and adams note but the tyler and johnson notes should be removed [[User:AmYisroelChai|עם ישראל חי]] ([[User talk:AmYisroelChai|talk]]) 15:20, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
:Indeed, Tyler was a Whig during his 1-month as veep & A. Johnson was a Democrat (dressed as a National Unionist) during his 1.5 months as veep. The National Unionists were 'really' Republicans & (North supporting) Democrats. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 16:36, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. ''
The result of the move request was: '''no consensus to move''' the pages at this time, per the discussion below. [[User:Dekimasu|Dekimasu]]<small>[[User talk:Dekimasu|よ!]]</small> 07:08, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
----
== George H.W. Bush's picture ==
* [[:List of Vice Presidents of the United States]] → {{no redirect|List of vice presidents of the United States}}
* [[:List of Presidents of the United States by date of death]] → {{no redirect|List of presidents of the United States by date of death}}
* [[:Lifespan timeline of Presidents of the United States]] → {{no redirect|Lifespan timeline of the presidents of the United States}}
* [[:List of Presidents of the United States by time in office]] → {{no redirect|List of presidents of the United States by time in office}}
* [[:Portraits of Presidents of the United States]] → {{no redirect|Portraits of the presidents of the United States}}
* [[:List of international trips made by the President of the United States]] → {{no redirect|List of international trips made by the president of the United States}}
* [[:List of Presidents of the United States by judicial appointments]] → {{no redirect|List of presidents of the United States by judicial appointments}}
* [[:List of Presidents of the United States by military service]] → {{no redirect|List of presidents of the United States by military service}}
* [[:List of Presidents of the United States by other offices held]] → {{no redirect|List of presidents of the United States by other offices held}}
* [[:List of people pardoned or granted clemency by the President of the United States]] → {{no redirect|List of people pardoned or granted clemency by the president of the United States}}
* [[:List of Presidents of the United States by previous experience]] → {{no redirect|List of presidents of the United States by previous experience}}
* [[:List of personal coats of arms of Presidents of the United States]] → {{no redirect|List of personal coats of arms of the presidents of the United States}}
* [[:List of Presidents of the United States who died in office]] → {{no redirect|List of presidents of the United States who died in office}}
* [[:List of Presidents of the United States by education]] → {{no redirect|List of presidents of the United States by education}}
* [[:List of Presidents of the United States with facial hair]] → {{no redirect|List of presidents of the United States with facial hair}}
* [[:List of United States Presidential firsts]] → {{no redirect|List of United States presidential firsts}}
* [[:List of Presidents of the United States who were Freemasons]] → {{no redirect|List of presidents of the United States who were Freemasons}}
* [[:List of Presidents of the United States by net worth]] → {{no redirect|List of presidents of the United States by net worth}}
* [[:List of nicknames of Presidents of the United States]] → {{no redirect|List of nicknames of the presidents of the United States}}
* [[:List of Presidents of the United States by home state]] → {{no redirect|List of presidents of the United States by home state}}
* [[:Religious affiliations of Presidents of the United States]] → {{no redirect|Religious affiliations of the presidents of the United States}}
* [[:List of residences of Presidents of the United States]] → {{no redirect|List of residences of the presidents of the United States}}
* [[:List of Presidents of the United States who owned slaves]] → {{no redirect|List of presidents of the United States who owned slaves}}
* [[:List of Vice Presidents of the United States by age]] → {{no redirect|List of vice presidents of the United States by age}}
* [[:List of personal coats of arms of Vice Presidents of the United States]] → {{no redirect|List of personal coats of arms of the vice presidents of the United States}}
* [[:List of Vice Presidents of the United States by education]] → {{no redirect|List of vice presidents of the United States by education}}
* [[:List of Vice Presidents of the United States by other offices held]] → {{no redirect|List of vice presidents of the United States by other offices held}}
* [[:List of Vice Presidents of the United States by place of primary affiliation]] → {{no redirect|List of vice presidents of the United States by place of primary affiliation}}
* [[:Religious affiliations of Vice Presidents of the United States]] → {{no redirect|Religious affiliations of the vice presidents of the United States}}
* [[:List of Vice Presidents of the United States by time in office]] → {{no redirect|List of vice presidents of the United States by time in office}}
* [[:List of First Ladies of the United States]] → {{no redirect|List of first ladies of the United States}}
* [[:List of children of the Presidents of the United States]] → {{no redirect|List of children of the presidents of the United States}}
* [[:List of educational institutions named after U.S. presidents]] → {{no redirect|List of educational institutions named after presidents of the United States}}
* [[:List of Presidents of the United States on currency]] → {{no redirect|List of presidents of the United States on currency}}
* [[:List of U.S. counties named after U.S. Presidents]] → {{no redirect|List of U.S. counties named after presidents of the United States}}
* [[:List of actors who played the President of the United States]] → {{no redirect|List of actors who played the president of the United States}}
* [[:List of fictional Vice Presidents of the United States]] → {{no redirect|List of fictional vice presidents of the United States}}
* [[:List of actors who played the Vice President of the United States]] → {{no redirect|List of actors who played the vice president of the United States}}
– I created a requested move as requested by [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]]. [[Special:Contributions/2601:183:101:58D0:508F:A515:F7C4:41D6|2601:183:101:58D0:508F:A515:F7C4:41D6]] ([[User talk:2601:183:101:58D0:508F:A515:F7C4:41D6|talk]]) 22:48, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
:There's also [[List of United States Secretaries of State]] and other lists of cabinet officials. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 22:53, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Opposed''' - what's next... de-capitalizing the word "Emperor" in [[List of Holy Roman Emperors]]? The titles "President of the United States" and "Vice President of the Untied States" are routinely capitalized in sources. It is time to '''stop''' this de-capitalization crusade. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 00:53, 22 May 2018
*:You mean like in these books? [https://books.google.com/books?id=BQUCAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA3&dq=%22Holy+Roman+Emperors%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiDr6jz6JrbAhXCyFQKHU44C4EQ6AEIQTAE#v=onepage&q=%22Holy%20Roman%20Emperors%22&f=false], [https://books.google.com/books?id=BGruBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA316&dq=%22Holy+Roman+Emperors%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiDr6jz6JrbAhXCyFQKHU44C4EQ6AEIRzAF#v=onepage&q=%22Holy%20Roman%20Emperors%22&f=false], [https://books.google.com/books?id=9WMk9XLqX7sC&pg=PT511&dq=%22Holy+Roman+Emperors%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjb3Zv_6JrbAhUB7mMKHSsXCZ44ChDoAQguMAE#v=onepage&q=%22Holy%20Roman%20Emperors%22&f=false], [https://books.google.com/books?id=QWqtAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA9&dq=%22Holy+Roman+Emperors%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjb3Zv_6JrbAhUB7mMKHSsXCZ44ChDoAQhNMAc#v=onepage&q=%22Holy%20Roman%20Emperors%22&f=false], [https://books.google.com/books?id=CcfzAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA16&dq=%22Holy+Roman+Emperors%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjb3Zv_6JrbAhUB7mMKHSsXCZ44ChDoAQhXMAk#v=onepage&q=%22Holy%20Roman%20Emperors%22&f=false], [https://books.google.com/books?id=EduPgtL0AtEC&pg=PA60&dq=%22Holy+Roman+Emperors%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj308iK6ZrbAhXIrVQKHQN6ACo4FBDoAQg-MAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Holy%20Roman%20Emperors%22&f=false], [https://books.google.com/books?id=PdocrMYHmlYC&pg=PT205&dq=%22Holy+Roman+Emperors%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj308iK6ZrbAhXIrVQKHQN6ACo4FBDoAQhEMAU#v=onepage&q=%22Holy%20Roman%20Emperors%22&f=false], [https://books.google.com/books?id=F2cHBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT146&dq=%22Holy+Roman+Emperors%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj308iK6ZrbAhXIrVQKHQN6ACo4FBDoAQhUMAg#v=onepage&q=%22Holy%20Roman%20Emperors%22&f=false], [https://books.google.com/books?id=E2CTAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT101&dq=%22Holy+Roman+Emperors%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjen_6U6ZrbAhWHKnwKHYOGBos4HhDoAQgoMAA#v=onepage&q=%22Holy%20Roman%20Emperors%22&f=false], [https://books.google.com/books?id=oSDmINSxXbAC&pg=PA3&dq=%22Holy+Roman+Emperors%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjen_6U6ZrbAhWHKnwKHYOGBos4HhDoAQgtMAE#v=onepage&q=%22Holy%20Roman%20Emperors%22&f=false], [https://books.google.com/books?id=1nhO28Gm0sAC&pg=PA351&dq=%22Holy+Roman+Emperors%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjen_6U6ZrbAhWHKnwKHYOGBos4HhDoAQhMMAY#v=onepage&q=%22Holy%20Roman%20Emperors%22&f=false], [https://books.google.com/books?id=RcxMAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Holy+Roman+Emperors%22&dq=%22Holy+Roman+Emperors%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjen_6U6ZrbAhWHKnwKHYOGBos4HhDoAQheMAk]? [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 02:53, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
*:{{ping|Blueboar}}, could we have your response to the evidence set out by Dicklyon, please? [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 03:40, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Opposed''', unless every "List of Presidents of ..." and "List of Prime Ministers of ..." article Wikipedia-wide is changed as well. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 01:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*:Yes, of course, every one will be fixed if this good start is approved. I suggest you support with the understanding that not everything gets fixed at once. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 02:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
*::Indeed. There's a lot of [[WP:Gaming the system]] going on, where one blob of over-capitalizers cries out in anguish if things aren't discussed one article at a time, and the other gaggle of people from the same camp shake their fists and stamp their feet if its not one huge mass RM. Can't have it both ways. The usual, and sensible, RM approach is is to do batch RMs of similar article titles about similar topics. It's been my direct experience that attempts to do an enormous mass-RM of every article that {{em|might}} qualify for a move will inevitably net one that should not for some specific-to-that-article reason, and lead people to oppose the entire proposal on the basis of the single article that shouldn't move. So, no, it can't be done in one enormous dump-truck move as Drdpw suggests. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 23:50, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' The title "President of the United States" is routinely capitalized in almost every major source.<span class="nowrap"><span style="color:blue">Canuck</span><small><sup><span style="color:red">89</span> [[User talk:Canuckian89|(Converse with me)]]</sup></small> <small>01:46, May 22, 2018 (UTC)</small></span>
*:It is also routinely capped in Wikipedia where appropriate; but [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=of+Presidents+of+the+United&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1980&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t4%3B%2Cof%20Presidents%20of%20the%20United%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bof%20Presidents%20of%20the%20United%3B%2Cc0%3B%3Bof%20presidents%20of%20the%20United%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BOF%20PRESIDENTS%20OF%20THE%20UNITED%3B%2Cc0 look at the appropriate context] please. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 02:57, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
*::Yes. [[MOS:JOBTITLES]] already covers this in detail. We capitalize when the subject itself is unique title. Thus we have an article at [[Vice President of the United States]]. But [[List of vice presidents of the United States]] isn't such a case; it a common-noun-phrase usage and the subject is the individuals, not the title. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 23:52, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. "Offices, titles, and positions such as president...are common nouns and therefore should be in lower case," per [[WP:JOBTITLES]]. From ''Chicago Manual of Style'': "the president; George Washington, first president of the United States; President Washington; the presidency" (8.21). "Lowercase titles except when they directly precede names," according to "titles" in ''The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage''. [[User:Nine Zulu queens|Nine Zulu queens]] ([[User talk:Nine Zulu queens|talk]]) 02:55, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''', the upper-case descriptor of the topic is most recognizable. The lower-casing of important topics and historical events on Wikipedia certainly must end somewhere. [[User:Randy Kryn|Randy Kryn]] ([[User talk:Randy Kryn|talk]]) 10:21, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*:[[MOS:CAPS]] says it ends with topics that are "consistently capitalized in sources". Why not stick with that? [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 02:57, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''', per [[MOS:JOBTITLES]]. The capitalisation of common nouns is completely unnecessary and contrary to the normal rules of English capitalisation. [[User:Mitch Ames|Mitch Ames]] ([[User talk:Mitch Ames|talk]]) 11:04, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*:Given that the titles “President of the United States” and “Vice President of the United States” are routinely capitalized in an overwhelming majority of sources, I have to question the claim that this is “contrary to the normal rules”. Perhaps they are undocumented exceptions to the rules... but it seems that it is “normal” to capitalize. Call them “uncommon nouns”, if you need a term for it... but we should keep the routine (ie “normal”) capitalization. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 12:31, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*::In the singular the terms are titles, treated as proper nouns and capitalised, but in the plural they are no longer titles, thus not capitalised. [[MOS:JOBTITLES]] actually uses "president(s) of the United States" as an example. Opposers of these particular article moves should consider proposing a change to [[MOS:JOBTITLES]], or at least a change to the example used in that guideline. [[User:Mitch Ames|Mitch Ames]] ([[User talk:Mitch Ames|talk]]) 12:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*:::So would you lowercase the word “Emperors” in [[List of Holy Roman Emperors]]? ... that is plural too. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 17:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*::::'''Yes'''. See my information below. [[User:GenQuest|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow:brown 0.1em 0.2em 0.1em;">GenQuest</span>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:GenQuest|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow:brown 0.1em 0.2em 0.1em;">"Talk to Me"</span>]]</sup></small> 12:03, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
*:::[https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=is+President+of+the+United%2Cis+president+of+the+United%2Cis+vice+president+of%2Cis+Vice+President+of&year_start=1990&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cis%20President%20of%20the%20United%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cis%20president%20of%20the%20United%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cis%20vice%20president%20of%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cis%20Vice%20President%20of%3B%2Cc0 This ngram] suggests that book publishers can do it either way. Is there an actual argument for capitalizing? The president is just that important that he needs a capital "P"? [[User:Nine Zulu queens|Nine Zulu queens]] ([[User talk:Nine Zulu queens|talk]]) 13:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*::::[[List of Holy Roman Emperors]] is probably not a good example, because it is a redirect to [[Holy Roman Emperor]]. The target article title is singular, a formal title for a specific entity, and thus worthy of capitalisation. I'd say that the redirect itself complies with [[WP:R#KEEP]]'s "aid accidental linking" so should remain. I ''would'' change {{cl|Holy Roman Emperors}} and {{tl|Holy Roman Emperors}} for the same reasons as "presidents" - the plural is not a formal title for a specific entity. [[User:Mitch Ames|Mitch Ames]] ([[User talk:Mitch Ames|talk]]) 11:30, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
*:::::Yep. This is exactly what [[MOS:JOBTITLES]] intends. The article [[Holy Roman Emperor]] would remain at that title because the position itself is the subject; it is not being used as a generic, plural/collective descriptor of a series of individuals. It's very strange to me that people are [supposedly] having any difficulty understanding this distinction. And we've been over it so many times before with way less hand-wringing, e.g. this very year with a bunch of moves distinguishing articles like "Lord Mayor of [Placename]" and "List of lord mayors of [Placename]". A stare-you-in-the-face example is [[List of mayors, lord mayors and administrators of Sydney]], in which one of the full formal titles as a thing unto itself is given, properly, as "Right Honorourable Lord Mayor of Sydney", the same style that would also be used before the name of a specific person. Similarly, a section there is "List of deputy lord mayors of Sydney", a collective, generic label for multiple people, while a sentence within it begins: "The following individuals have been elected as Deputy Lord Mayor of the City of Sydney", in which the position is being referred to as such, as a unique role in itself, not being used as a descriptive label.<p>This is not difficult. It's the same as: "According to <u>P</u>rofessor X. Y. Zeeling, twenty other <u>p</u>rofessors of <u>b</u>asketweaving have signed the petition to have the university create a new <u>D</u>istinguished <u>P</u>rofessor of <u>B</u>asketweaving position." The fact that a handful of people are [supposedly] having their brains short out just because [vice] presidents of the US are under discussion this time isn't really plausible to me. Rather, it's strongly evidentiary that the only thing happening here is dogged American-exceptionalist conservative traditionalism fighting tooth and nail, as usual (see many previous debates, e.g. about [[MOS:JR]]) against a much broader consensus (both on-WP and in off-site style guides, most of which recommend lower-casing rules consistent with our own today). There's neither a policy basis nor a linguistic reality behind the opposition to this move, only a big pile of [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT]].<br /><span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 00:12, 27 May 2018 (UTC)</p>
*'''Oppose''' for same reasons as [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] and [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]]. [[User:AmYisroelChai|עם ישראל חי]] ([[User talk:AmYisroelChai|talk]]) 14:53, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Opposed''' Words like President of the United States are titles of offices, and therefore should be capitalized. [[User:Avrand6|AvRand]] ([[User talk:Avrand6|talk]]) 15:46, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*:Neither of them gave a reason to not fix these. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 03:03, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
* '''Support''' IAW [[MOS:JOBTITLES|the pertinent MOS]], {{strikethrough|as well as precedent (probably brought about by said MOS, e.g. [[list of chief executive officers]])}}. — '''[[user:fourthords|<span style="color:#CC0000">fourthords</span>]] | [[user talk:fourthords|=Λ=]] |''' 17:08, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*:Your parenthetically noted article does not represent precedent; these do however: [[List of Prime Ministers of Canada]], [[List of Presidents of France]], and [[List of Emperors of Japan]]. Cheers. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 20:32, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*:: Fair enough, I wasn't at home, and I just searched for the first title that sprang to mind. I've struck my second argument. — '''[[user:fourthords|<span style="color:#CC0000">fourthords</span>]] | [[user talk:fourthords|=Λ=]] |''' 20:47, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per [[MOS:JOBTITLES]] and [[MOS:CAPS]]. There is no reason to capitalize "president" and it is important to follow our internal guidelines and regulations. -- [[User:Millionsandbillions|Millionsandbillions]] ([[User talk:Millionsandbillions|talk]]) 19:45, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*:Then a systemic change needs to be made that encompasses all "List of Presidents of ...", "List of Prime Ministers of ...", "List of Emperors of ...", along with similarly titled & capitalized articles, as precedent appears to go in a different direction. Cheers. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 20:32, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*:: I wonder whether those article precede the MOS or vice-versa. If the MOS was decided first, then those pages have been titled systematically incorrectly. If those pages were the SOP first, but then [[MOS:JOBTITLES]] was decided upon, then the latter constitutes the systematic change that you requested. — '''[[user:fourthords|<span style="color:#CC0000">fourthords</span>]] | [[user talk:fourthords|=Λ=]] |''' 20:47, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' We should go by what our sources state, and most .gov sites (Library of Congress, usa.gov, etc) show these positions capitalized. The word presidency shouldn't be capitalized, but when it's used as a title it should be capitalized. [[User:Semmendinger|<b style="color:#000080">S<small>EMMENDINGER</small></b>]] ([[User talk:Semmendinger|<b style="color:#F80"><small>talk</small></b>]]) 20:15, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*Compared to other "de-capitalization crusade" efforts, this one has a much better rationale. Why stand in the way of progress, i.e. making english look exactly like one of those other interchangeable european languages? — [[User talk:AjaxSmack|<span style="border:1px solid #93010b;background:#ef0000;padding:2px;color:#efe6e6;text-shadow:black 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em; font-family: Georgia;"> '''AjaxSmack''' </span>]] 20:42, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*:The editors of the top dictionaries and style guides set the rules for English language usage. We either follow those rules, or violate them. Interchangeability of European languages? What are you taking and where can I get some? [[User:Nine Zulu queens|Nine Zulu queens]] ([[User talk:Nine Zulu queens|talk]]) 02:54, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - AFAIK, more often then not, these offices are usually shown in capitalized form. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 21:23, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. This is precisely why [[MOS:JOBTITLES]] says what it says. This is a common-noun-phrase usage. It is not the article about the title as such ([[Vice President of the United States]]), nor is it use of the phrase as a title attached directly to someone's name (Vice President Pence). Frankly, it's amazing that so many people STILL don't get it, after the number of times we've been over this, and re-re-re-clarified that part of MoS to be abosolutely clear. It really isn't possible any longer to misread it, this is just willful defiance of it out of traditionalism. Stop it. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 02:28, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' – higher office should not cause exceptions to otherwise consensus style guidelines. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 02:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support'''—I want all opposers to state explicitly how far down the hierarchical pecking order they'd draw the capping line. "White House Cleaner"? Seriously: bring it on—where is the boundary? The engram survery above says it all, too. Where sources are a mix, we go with MOSCAPS. [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 03:37, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Canuck and Dpwd. –[[User:Davey2010|<span style="color: blue;">'''Davey'''</span><span style="color: orange;">'''2010'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Davey2010|<span style="color: navy;">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup> 14:20, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
* '''Oppose'''. Usage in reliable sources is the highest and most important guideline, and a simple check confirms it is capitalized in the vast majority of them. If sources used pR3$ideNt of the United States, Wikipedia would as well. [[User:SnowFire|SnowFire]] ([[User talk:SnowFire|talk]]) 22:06, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
*:The sources for this article are authorities on vice presidents. To resolve a style question, we should turn to an authority on style such as a dictionary or style guide. Otherwise, the existence of guidelines such as [[WP:JOBTITLES]] wouldn't make much sense. Just out of curiosity, I decided take the challenge suggested above. This is from the first source I checked: "As vice president, Gerry supported the War of 1812 and was a defender of President Madison and his administration."[https://web.archive.org/web/20161021144448/http://millercenter.org/president/essays/gerry-1813-vicepresident] [[User:Nine Zulu queens|Nine Zulu queens]] ([[User talk:Nine Zulu queens|talk]]) 00:29, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
*::That ''really'' says a lot for outside sources, when they're inconsistent within one sentence. And I'm seeing a lot of claptrap above about outside style guides. We have our own style guide. [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 00:45, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
*:::Yeah, yeah... “we have our own style guide”... Which can be [[WP:CCC|changed]], or simply [[WP:IAR|ignored]] if we wish. Our “rules” are supposed to be flexible.
*:::Indeed, a move request like this one is one of the ways we can determine what consensus actually is, and whether we need to change our style guidance. If the guidance says “de-capitalize”, but the RM says “No, leave it capitalized”, we know that community consensus does not support the guidance... and we should amend the guideline to match the RM consensus. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 10:57, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
*::::{{tq|...outside sources, when they're inconsistent within one sentence.}} {{mdash}} On the contrary that source is consistent in that it capitalises "President" when followed by a person's name to form a title, i.e., when it can be considered to have become part of the name, and does not capitalise "vice president" when used generically (not immediately preceding and deemed part of someone's name) - exactly as [[MOS:JOBTITLE]] suggests. [[User:Mitch Ames|Mitch Ames]] ([[User talk:Mitch Ames|talk]]) 12:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
*:::Congrats to whoever rewrote the guideline. I was reluctant to cite it because the old version was more confusing than useful. But I don't think any version of the guideline could reasonably be interpreted to support the upper casing of plurals. [[User:Nine Zulu queens|Nine Zulu queens]] ([[User talk:Nine Zulu queens|talk]]) 05:43, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
*::::That credit goes, at least primarily, to SMcCandlish. —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 04:24, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' English grammar is English grammar. You can't go by government pamphlets, websites, advertising materials from corporations, etc. They are going to capitalize what they think is important, but that's just 'advertising hype' and 'marketing creep.' One of the rules of good grammar regards job titles, which, as common nouns, are NEVER capitalized unless used as an [[honorific]]. Any job title, when plural, can almost never be an honorific, and therefore can never be capitalized. There really are rules about this, only a few centuries or so old. We are so inundated with advertisers and marketers taking bold license with the English language to get their points across as quickly as possible that, unless you paid attention in school, you'd probably know all this already. See [[Chicago Manual of Style|CMOS]] and other writing industry accepted style guides that are available for clarity on this, if needed. [[User:GenQuest|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow:brown 0.1em 0.2em 0.1em;">GenQuest</span>]] <small><sup>[[User talk:GenQuest|<span style="color:Purple; text-shadow:brown 0.1em 0.2em 0.1em;">"Talk to Me"</span>]]</sup></small> 12:03, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Plurals and generic references are not titles or proper names. Note: some of the confusion here comes from the fact that WP MOS for capitalization in article titles differs from the standards used by newspapers and other periodicals. [[User:WCCasey|WCCasey]] ([[User talk:WCCasey|talk]]) 16:58, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
* '''Support'''. These are generic common noun uses, not a proper noun usage. This is well covered by [[MOS:JOBTITLES]], especially since its clarification in recent months. See the most recent move discussions at [[Talk:List of mayors of Birmingham]], [[Talk:List of mayors of Finsbury]], [[Talk:List of mayors of Leeds]], [[Talk:List of provosts of Aberdeen]], [[Talk:List of prime ministers of Queen Elizabeth II]], and [[Talk:Living presidents and vice presidents of the United States]] (not to mention [[Talk:Mayor of Doncaster]] and [[Talk:Mayor of Copeland]]). Note that most of those discussions covered multiple articles. Some (all?) of the mentioned counterexamples have never been explicitly discussed in RM discussions, and thus form no precedent as consensus. I'm a bit less sure about the ones with the singular form ("List of XYZs by the President [singular, not plural] of the United States"), but SMcCandlish has spoken. —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 04:57, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''{{snd}}If these move requests are sustained, I request that implementation be stayed until a Wikipedia-wide consensus for capitalization of plural titles in list articles is established based upon what's been discussed here (and noted in [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists]], [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization)]], and [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (plurals)]]). How active is [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Lists|WikiProject Lists]]? This issue would seem to fall in their bailiwick. The alternative is, I fear, a contentious series of country-by-country move request debates until some/most/all '''List of Emperors of ...''', '''List of Presidents of ...''', '''List of Chancellors of ...''', '''List of Prime Ministers of ...''', '''List of Governors-General of ...''', and '''List of Dukes of ...''' (among others, I'm sure) are changed to sentence case. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 21:21, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
*:Nah, those should already be lowercase, and most of them already are. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 23:45, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
*::Not so; most are capitalized, just as I noted above. At any rate, as up-page you've dismissed my above suggestion out of hand (and are you suggesting that I'm "gaming the system"?), I'll bow out of the conversation. Regrettably, it appears that BarrelProof's last sentence above my comment is the final word. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 00:23, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
*:::I haven't said anyone in particular is gaming the system. I'm responding to several years of the same tired, subjective, plaintive recalcitrance being offered against such moves, no matter how many times this over-capitalization positioning fails in RM after RM after RM. At some point the stick has to be dropped – by everyone wielding it. It's not personal; it's a matter of the same general cluster of editors pursuing the same aim relentlessly against a consensus codified in multile (NC and MoS) guidelines, and reaffirmed over and over again in RM. It's just general tendentiousness. Whether its organized or intentional or not is ultimately irreelvant; it's still a waste of editorial time. As for stats, we must be looking at different articles. In the end, it doesn't matter. We just recently went over this yet again with the mayor and lord mayor articles and the consensus was "List of [lord] mayors of ..." versus "[Lord] Mayor of". It's exactly the same distinction as the one here: generic description of various people versus article about the position itself. This is not new; it's tired rehash. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 00:32, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
* '''Oppose'''. Unnecessary and redundant. [[User:Bold and Brash|Bold and Brash]] ([[User talk:Bold and Brash|talk]]) 21:08, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
**What a ludicrous comment. [[User:Surtsicna|Surtsicna]] ([[User talk:Surtsicna|talk]]) 12:12, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - President of the United States is a title and it should always be capitalized. [[User:Qballer82|Qballer82]] [[User:Qballer82|Qballer82]] ([[User talk:Qballer82|talk]]) 01:19, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
*:Capitalizing titles is contrary to Wikipedia style, and contrary to half the sources. Did you look at [[WP:JOBTITLES]]? [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 01:22, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->
Shouldn't H.W. Bush's picture be his official portrait as VP instead of his official portrait as president?
== Intro ==
[[User:Lucafrehley|Lucafrehley]] ([[User talk:Lucafrehley|talk]]) 13:07, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
:It should be, but somebody in the last few weeks changed it. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 23:03, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
==RfC notice==
The article's intro should be modeled after the [[List of Presidents of the United States]] intro, IMHO. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 01:03, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
[[File:Symbol watching blue lashes high contrast.svg|25px|link=|alt=]] You are invited to join the discussion at [[:Talk:List of presidents of the United States#Request for comment: sortability, scope metadata, order|Talk:List of presidents of the United States § Request for comment: sortability, scope metadata, order]]. [[User:Tol|<span style="color:#f542d7">Tol</span>]] ([[User talk:Tol|talk]] | [[Special:Contribs/Tol|contribs]]) @ 20:05, 9 December 2021 (UTC)<!-- [[Template:Please see]] --> [[User:Tol|<span style="color:#f542d7">Tol</span>]] ([[User talk:Tol|talk]] | [[Special:Contribs/Tol|contribs]]) @ 20:05, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
== Movediscussionin progress ==
== Lead image proposal ==
There is a move discussion in progress on [[Talk:List of Presidents of the United States#Requestedmove 27 July 2019 |Talk:ListofPresidentsof the UnitedStates]] which affects this page. Pleaseparticipateon that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:List of Presidents of the United States crosspost -->—[[User:RMCD bot|RMCD bot]] 18:17, 27July2019 (UTC)
See [[Talk:List of presidents of the United States#Lead image proposal|this related discussion]], at the president's list page. Which would affect ''this'' page. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 18:10, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
:[[File:1OC2003.jpg|thumb|One Observatory Circle, July 2001]]I like and support the idea of having the VPs residence as the lead image, same as having the White House as the lead image for List of POTUSs. That said, I don't think the current one is really the best one we have available. The snow, the odd angle, the proximity, the tents, make it... not good. Can I suggest this one instead? Cheers - [[User:Thewolfchild|<span style="color:black">w</span><span style="color: red;">o</span><span style="color:black">lf</span>]] 00:08, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
::You proposed image, is best. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 00:10, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
== Prioroffice ==
== Proposal for changes ==
[[List of presidents of the United States]] has recently been promoted a FL. I'd like to incorporate many changes I made to that list to this one as well. This would include changing the table structure to avoid the repetition of name when the sortability feature is used. Those changes were broadly discussed at [[Talk:List of presidents of the United States/Archive 16#Request for comments: table structure and the lead image]]. This will also include using/replacing sources with sources with better reliability. Let me know if anyone has any ideas/objections. – [[User:Kavyansh.Singh|Kavyansh.Singh]] ([[User talk:Kavyansh.Singh|talk]]) 12:26, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
I've removed the column from this article, as it's been removed from [[List of presidents of the United States]] article. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 19:34, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
:The repetitions created by sorting is not so problematic in this article as to warrant an overhaul. The hidden sort keys throughout keep what would be the the table's biggest potential problem in check. This article does have an 'election column' issue, as neither Ford nor Rockefeller were elected in the 1972 election; this can easily be fixed. This list appears to me to have adequate inline citations from reliable sources, but if you have sources with better reliability go ahead and include them. Cheers. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 15:33, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
::History.com is not considered a reliable source, and it would be best to minimize citations to whitehouse.gov for obvious reasons—so I do think there is definite room for reference improvements. '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 22:57, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
::I was just thinking about the repetition thing, and even though it's been quite a while since this proposal was made I don't see anything wrong with it. To be honest I was very confused at first but they may just be me, and if it isn't...then I would personally consider it at least somewhat problematic for other people who may not know how to use Wikipedia very well. <span style="background:#2BA;border-radius:4px"> [[User:Phrogge |<span style="color:#0F9">phrogge</span>]] [[User talk:Phrogge|<span style="color:#9F9">'sup?</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Phrogge|<span style="color:#AF2">edits</span>]]</span> 04:01, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
== Images being changed, without consensus ==
== Lifespan ==
Withtherecentrestructuring of the president'slistthelifespanwasremoved but still remains on this list.Itshouldprobablyberemoved here too, for consistency. -- [[User:Millionsandbillions|Millionsandbillions]] ([[User talk:Millionsandbillions|talk]]) 18:47, 25February2020 (UTC)
See [[Talk:List of presidents of the United States#Image changes, without consensus|discussion]] concerning this matter, of image changes without consensus. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 02:29, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
:{{Done}} · I also brought other formatting aspects of this list into sync with the POTUS list as well. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 22:28, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
== Vive Presidents that became president is missing Biden ==
== Semi-protected edit request on 7 November 2020 ==
Your missing Joe Biden [[Special:Contributions/47.150.191.216|47.150.191.216]] ([[User talk:47.150.191.216|talk]]) 03:37, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected|List of vice presidents of the United States|answered=yes}}
:No we're not. The section you're reading is about vice presidents who ''succeeded'' to the presidency upon the death or resignation of the previous president. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 04:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
{{subst:trim|1=
<!-- State UNAMBIGUOUSLY your suggested changes below this line, preferably in a "change X to Y" format. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. -->
== A column for Vice Presidents' ages when entering and leaving office? ==
I think we should add a column for this, the years are of course already there so you get a decent approximation but a column would allow one to sort the table easily. I don't know how to edit Wikipedia really (will look into it when i got time) but figured I'd make the suggestion nevertheless. P.D. John Cabell Breckinridge was the youngest, at 36, to James Buchanan in 1856. [[User:Emilia2307|Emilia2307]] ([[User talk:Emilia2307|talk]]) 18:30, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
{{A note}} Such details are available at [[List of vice presidents of the United States by age]]. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 19:10, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
<!-- Write your request ABOVE this line and do not remove the tildes and curly brackets below. -->
Connection licence
:[[File:Red question icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable source]] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User talk:Melmann|Melmann]] 17:46, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
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One Observatory Circle, July 2001I like and support the idea of having the VPs residence as the lead image, same as having the White House as the lead image for List of POTUSs. That said, I don't think the current one is really the best one we have available. The snow, the odd angle, the proximity, the tents, make it... not good. Can I suggest this one instead? Cheers - wolf00:08, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The repetitions created by sorting is not so problematic in this article as to warrant an overhaul. The hidden sort keys throughout keep what would be the the table's biggest potential problem in check. This article does have an 'election column' issue, as neither Ford nor Rockefeller were elected in the 1972 election; this can easily be fixed. This list appears to me to have adequate inline citations from reliable sources, but if you have sources with better reliability go ahead and include them. Cheers. Drdpw (talk) 15:33, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
History.com is not considered a reliable source, and it would be best to minimize citations to whitehouse.gov for obvious reasons—so I do think there is definite room for reference improvements. Aza24 (talk)22:57, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I was just thinking about the repetition thing, and even though it's been quite a while since this proposal was made I don't see anything wrong with it. To be honest I was very confused at first but they may just be me, and if it isn't...then I would personally consider it at least somewhat problematic for other people who may not know how to use Wikipedia very well. phrogge'sup?edits04:01, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No we're not. The section you're reading is about vice presidents who succeeded to the presidency upon the death or resignation of the previous president. GoodDay (talk) 04:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A column for Vice Presidents' ages when entering and leaving office?
I think we should add a column for this, the years are of course already there so you get a decent approximation but a column would allow one to sort the table easily. I don't know how to edit Wikipedia really (will look into it when i got time) but figured I'd make the suggestion nevertheless. P.D. John Cabell Breckinridge was the youngest, at 36, to James Buchanan in 1856. Emilia2307 (talk) 18:30, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
