Talk:Middle Ages: Difference between revisions

Christian unity

The article's lead wrongly states that "This period [the Middle Ages] also saw the collapse of the unified Christian church, with the East-West Schism of 1054." @Nikkimaria:, are you sure that the emergence of the distinct Nestorian Church and Monophysite/Miaphysite churches after Ephesus and Chalcedon do not contradict the statement? Borsoka (talk) 14:44, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

The article begins "In the history of Europe ...", and in that context the statement is fine. Please stop littering the article with statements of opinion in tags. Johnbod (talk) 14:47, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Have you ever heard of Arianism, Bogumilism? Borsoka (talk) 14:50, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

It may be more accurate to say that it saw the formal division of Christian unity with the East–West Schism with what we now know as the denominations of Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. Elias (talk) 22:00, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Arianism, Bogomilism, Catharism, Waldensianism, etc. were considered heresies by the Catholic Church of the time, not schisms, and none of them directly caused "the collapse of the unified Christian church" - Epinoia (talk) 23:15, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Eliasbizannes yes, I think this is the best approach (although Christian unity has never existed). Epinoia yes, but we are not here to present a Catholic PoV as a fact. Borsoka (talk) 23:36, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

I concur with Johnbod; the tagging campaign is not helpful, especially in the absence of sourcing for proposed changes. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:59, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Tagging is the best approach when a problem is detected. The lead of the article is problematic: most of the statements that I tagged are not verified in the main text. Borsoka (talk) 01:10, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Given that this is a featured article and has undergone a formal review process, you're going to need to provide sourcing to support your claims. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:35, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for deleting the map that was not verified (although the article has undergone formal review processes). If my understanding is correct, you can explain based on the lead why the rediscovery of Justinian's Code why was important? If my understanding is correct, you can list Roman institutions surviving into the Middle Ages in the West based on the article. Could you please list some of them? How could I provide sourcing to my question? Borsoka (talk) 01:49, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

You clearly believe the article should say something other than what it currently does - here and in other sections. Rather than tag-bombing with dissenting claims, present your proposed text(s) here with supporting sources. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:52, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

No, I think the article could and should be improved but I am not a native English speaker, so I am not sure my edits can improve it. Borsoka (talk) 01:59, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Even more reason to present your case here on talk then, where your meaning can be explained. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:02, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Please read my comments above and below. Borsoka (talk) 02:04, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

I can assure you I've read them, which is why I'm inviting you to suggest what you think the article should say instead and what sources support your proposal(s). Nikkimaria (talk) 02:10, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for addressing some of my problems ([1]). I addressed some others ([2]). I think there is one pending issue in the lead. Borsoka (talk) 02:49, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Crusades

According to the article's lead: "The Crusades, first preached in 1095, were military attempts by Western European Christians to regain control of the Holy Land from Muslims." It is a correct statement, but @Nikkimaria: are you sure that these military actions are more important than the crusades against the Moors, the Baltic and Finno-Ugric tribes? The latter contributed to the development of at least 7 EU member states and directly effected the history of further European nations. Borsoka (talk) 14:48, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Since nobody opposed the suggested change, I fixed it myself ([3]). Borsoka (talk) 07:10, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Italy and the Ottonian Empire

According to the article: "By the late 10th century Italy had been drawn into the Ottonian sphere after a period of instability; Otto III (r. 996–1002) spent much of his later reign in the kingdom." 1. Otto I was crowned by the Iron Crown of Lombardy in 951. 2. His coronation was preceeded and followed by a period of instability. Likewise, the reigns of his son, Otto II, and his grandson Otto III were preceeded and followed by periods of instability. Otto III spent less than 4 years in Italy. Why is this information is so important in the article's context? (In comparison, Henry IV spent more than 10 years in Italy.)Borsoka (talk) 14:59, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

We still do not know why do we have to know that Otto III spent some years in Italy. For instance, his short visit to Gniezno had more lasting effects: the establishment of a Polish archbishopric. Perhaps the main contributor to the article wanted to emphasize Otto's idea of the Renovatio imperii Romanorum. In this case, the present vague and imprecise sentence should be modified. Borsoka (talk) 02:40, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

File:Europe in 900 AD.png

The map presents "Ahtum lordship" along the northwestern frontiers of Bulgaria although Ahtum - if ever existed - lived in the early 11th century. Norman Davies's map, the alleged source of this map, does not present this lordship. Neither are the two Burgundian kingdoms and Lotharingia presented in the alleged source of this map. Borsoka (talk) 00:37, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Fixed by Nikkimaria ([4]). Borsoka (talk) 07:08, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

The Code of Justinian

@Borsoka You point out as needing clarification the following "The empire's law code, the Corpus Juris Civilis or "Code of Justinian", was rediscovered in Northern Italy in the 11th century."

I agree, the Corpus Juris Civilis needs to stand in its out right as the achievement. The subsequent 11th century rediscovery by Western Europe (and related, the translations into Greek with the Basilika) are not the achievement in themselves other than helping transmit the knowledge into the more modern day. Elias (talk) 00:38, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, and the Corpus Juris Civilis could hardly be described as the empire's law code. It is a compilation of imperial decrees - as it is mentioned in the main text. Borsoka (talk) 00:40, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

That's not how I understand it: it pulled all decrees since Hadrian, built off the work of the Codex Theodosius, and also interpreted laws when they conflicted to create a new reference point. Elias (talk) 02:48, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, and in practice it was most probably never in use in the Greek East because it was so huge and it was written in Latin. Borsoka (talk) 02:58, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

No, again, my understanding is lawyers had to know Latin so they could use it. Though if you have a source to show how between when the Corpus Juris Civilis in 534 was published and the Greek translation with the Basilika in 892 AD it was never used, I'd love to see it.

"Much of the imperial legislation collected in the Theodosian and Justinianic Codes camouflages imperial decisions in a torrent of hostile rhetoric. The imperial rulings give ample evidence for the ideological and moral high ground claimed by the Roman state, but often tell us very little about how such legislation was applied to actual cases." "The great Justinianic codification of existing Roman law amounts to one of the largest bodies of Latin prose literature... ... However, by the second quarter of the sixth century Latin, the language of law and administration, was being overhauled in Constantinople by the use of Greek, which was spoken by most of the eastern empire's inhabitants... Justinian's own subsequent legislation, his novellae, were mostly issued in Greek." (Mitchell, Stephen (2017) [2007]. A History of the Later Roman Empire, AD 284–641. Blackwell History of the Ancient World. Vol. 3. Wiley-Blackwell. pp. 38, 137. ISBN 978-1-118-31242-1.) Borsoka (talk)

The page on Novellae Constitutiones indicates that quite a lot of revisions were made implying ongoing work. I understand the language friction, but your reference does not indicate they were ignored if anything used as reference points for future works which happened to be in Greek. But back to the topic, I support changing the text to refer to the Corpus Juris Civilis which includes work done of the Code of Justinian but which also built on the work of the Codex Theodosianus, the Codex Gregorianus and Codex Hermogenianus, as the focus of the sentence not the rediscovery in Western Europe Elias (talk) 19:09, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Surviving Roman institutions

The lead states that "In the West, most kingdoms incorporated the few extant Roman institutions." I assume the author refers to the survival of the ecclesiastic structure (because there is no mention of other surviving Roman institutions in the article), but the statement suggests more. What were the other Roman institutions incorporated by the "barbarian" kingdoms? Perhaps legal tradition? Borsoka (talk) 00:48, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: you deleted my tag raising the question what are the extant Roman institutions incorporated by the western kingdoms ([5]). Could you please list some of them based on the article? Borsoka (talk) 15:15, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

The article elaborates on several points where western kingdoms developed on existing Roman institutions - for example in architecture and law. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:18, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

When writing of the fate of Roman buildings in most part of Europe, the article says: "civic monuments and other public buildings were raided for building materials". Sincerely, when I am reading of the incorporation of few extant Roman institutions, I would not think that they were destroyed to be reused. Perhaps this is a matter of language barrier. Yes, as my first remark show above, I assumed the article refers to legal tradition that survived for some decades. Nevertheless, if you say that our readers want to read about "few" and "extant" Roman "institutions" without examples in the lead, I accept your judgement. Borsoka (talk) 16:33, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Monasteries and Christianization

The lead states that "Monasteries were founded as campaigns to Christianise pagan Europe continued." In fact, most monasteries were established after the Christianization of Europe. For instance, during the period of the Christianization of Hungary (c. 970 - c. 1095) less than 20 monasteries were founded - in comparison, during the following centuries hundreds of abbeys, convents, etc. were established. Borsoka (talk) 00:53, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

The lead statement certainly works for Europe north of the Alps. That "most monasteries were established after the Christianization of Europe" is no doubt also true, especially if you include convents, but does not contradict it. Johnbod (talk) 02:25, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

In Hungary more than 150 Benedictine and Cistercian monasteries were established after the Christianization. I edited the text in the lead to avoid ambiguity and to reflect verified material from the main text ([6]). Borsoka (talk) 02:46, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

I can't see your change as an improvement. I don't know about Hungary, but in most of Europe monasteries proliferated throughout the MA, but the earliest were the important ones. Johnbod (talk) 02:56, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

What about Cluny? What about Premontré? What about Citeaux? And what about their filials? They were established hundreds of years after the Christianization of Francia (and the rest of Western and Central Europe) and they were as much important as Monte Cassino, Fulda, etc. Borsoka (talk) 03:02, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Important to the Late Middle Ages. I'm still not seeing any problem with "Monasteries were founded as campaigns to Christianise pagan Europe continued." You may want to say something different, but there is nothing wrong with what was being said. Johnbod (talk) 03:35, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, some monasteries (and most new bishoprics) were founded as campaigns to Christianise pagan Europe continued. However, a typical monastery was established years, decades, centuries after the process of Christianization was completed. Of course, we could mention in the lead of the article about homo sapiens that there are people with 6 fingers on each hand, but our readers expect more general information in the lead. I think the new version is less ambigious, furthermore it mentions the role of bishoprics - the basic institutions of Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Borsoka (talk) 03:43, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

• The case for a change here has not been made. Johnbod (talk) 12:06, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
• Why? Borsoka (talk) 12:46, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Unwatching...

Im not available to deal with this tagging campaign and having watched a similar attack at crusades, I’m not going to hang around to watch someone tear the article apart while never providing any sources for the assertions being made. Not worth the aggravation...Ealdgyth (talk) 01:23, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Could you refer to sources stating that Ahtum ruled around 900, that monasteries were primarily established in connection with missionary activities? Could you explain why is important that Otto III spent some years in Italy? Borsoka (talk) 01:35, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Uninformative statement in the lead

According to the article: "Cultural and technological developments transformed European society, concluding the Late Middle Ages and beginning the early modern period." This sentence could be inserted in almost any context in European history without substantial changes. For instance "Cultural and technological developments transformed European society, concluding the Stone Age and beginning the Bronze Age.", "Cultural and technological developments transformed European society, concluding the Bronze Age and beginning the Iron Age." "Cultural and technological developments transformed European society, concluding the 1940s and beginning the 1950s." etc, etc. Could the sentence be more specific? Borsoka (talk) 15:35, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Blood, sweat and tears

In the lead, "difficulties and calamities" characterize the Late Middle Ages. I think some other aspects of the period - Renaissance, Humanism, exploration - should also be mentioned. Otherwise, based on the lead one could hardly link this period with Early Modern Times. Borsoka (talk) 15:43, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Not sure about this one; the Early modern period essentially begins with the Renaissance, when humanism and exploration most fully flourished, all of which are after the Middle Ages. To your point on the focus on the negative, the line "The theology of Thomas Aquinas, the paintings of Giotto, the poetry of Dante and Chaucer" etc. includes "...into the Late Middle Ages" which perhaps offers balance positive and negative events of the period. Aza24 (talk) 07:05, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

You may be right, but the article's main text covers the period until around 1500, including exploration. Borsoka (talk) 07:12, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Just some achievements of the period of "difficulties and calamities": the Dome of Florence Cathedral, Donatello's David, The Birth of Venus by Boticelli, printing, Portuguese naval expeditions, etc. Borsoka (talk) 01:07, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

@Aza24:, you would be right if you count the Renaissance as a time in which man threw off the shackles of the medieval mindset (the classic Jakob Burkhardt view). But if the Middle Ages is a chronological period, then it is generally seen as ending by 1500 (with various earlier dates also proposed, e.g. Fall of Constantinople, invention of the printing press, Columbus, etc.). This definitely includes parts of the Renaissance.--Ermenrich (talk) 01:28, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

That doesn't really have to do with what I'm saying? Borsoka seemingly indicated that the Late Middle Ages coincided with Early Modern Times, but our article says it didn't. This gets into the impossible contradictions between the general historical "Middle Ages" and things like "medieval art", which don't coincide exactly. That is, the examples of Donatello and Boticelli would be highly misleading if included; who cares if they just so fit into our article's scope of the middle ages, no book would ever call them "medieval artists" instead of Renaissance artists. There may be a solution in moving the "The theology of... into the Late Middle Ages" sentence into the 3rd paragraph, as most of the figures mentioned fit closer to the late middle ages than high. This might also help Borsoka's point in an earlier thread of their being no examples for the "Cultural and technological developments transformed European society" section. Aza24 (talk) 06:35, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Just a side remark: no, I did not say that the Late Middle Ages coincided with the Early Modern Time. I only referred to the fact that the former was followed by the latter. Since there were no impregnable walls between the two periods, we should clarify the connection between them. For instance, the start of exploration is one of the important links between them. Likewise, Late Medieval Humanism and devotio moderna paved the way for Reformation. Borsoka (talk) 06:44, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Then I have no idea what "Otherwise, based on the lead one could hardly link this period with Early Modern Times" means, as one would not need to link them together them, if they're different things! Aza24 (talk) 07:17, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, for my barbarian English. I referred to the fact that Humanism, exploration, etc. link the two periods. Borsoka (talk) 08:02, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

No worries; what do you think about my suggestion of moving that line down and possibly expanding it to balance out that section? Aza24 (talk) 08:19, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

• The case for a change here has not been made. Johnbod (talk) 12:05, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
• Do you want to RfC? Borsoka (talk) 12:48, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Seriously? You would need to develop and clarify what you are trying to argue considerably. Johnbod (talk) 17:15, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Seriously? There are two other editors who understand it. First of all, this part of the lead does not neutrally summerize the most important points covered in the article, contradicting WP:LEAD. Furthermore: 1. The Late Middle Ages (the last phase of the period described in this article) was not only of a period of "difficulties and calamities", but also a period of achievements. 2. These achievements include Humanism, early Renaissance and the start of exploration. 3. Renaissance was an important characteristic of Early Modern Times, exploration continued in the same period and Humanism had a role in the development towards the Reformation. Borsoka (talk) 23:06, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Fine - give it a go then. Johnbod (talk) 04:02, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Bulgaria

According to the article, "Bulgaria, ... at its height reached from Budapest to the Black Sea and from the Dnieper River in modern Ukraine to the Adriatic Sea." The statement is problematic for two reasons. First of all, it contradicts the cited source, a map in Crampton's monography about Bulgaria's history. The map does not indicate that Bulgaria incorporated territories as far as the Adriatic Sea at the same time when its frontiers allegedly reached as far as the Dnieper and "Budapest". Secondly, the claim that Bulgaria whenever incorporated a large territory in the Carpathian Basin (including whole Transylvania and the plains to the east of the Middle Danube) is a PoV, not a fact. For instance, the Romanian historian Tudor Sălăgean when writing of this period states that "Most of the Transylvanian territory remained outside the domination of the Bulgarian Tsarate...the central and northern regions of the intra-Carpathian territory were subject to the influence of Greater Moravia." (Sălăgean, Tudor (2005). "Romanian Society in the Early Middle Ages (9th–14th Centuries AD)". In Pop, Ioan-Aurel; Bolovan, Ioan (eds.). History of Romania: Compendium. Romanian Cultural Institute (Center for Transylvanian Studies). p. 136. ISBN 978-973-7784-12-4.) The Hungarian historian Pál Engel writes that Bulgaria "reached its apogee under the reign of Krum (803-814), Boris (852-889) and his son, Tsar Simeon (893-927). ... Archeological evidence shows the the southern part of both Transylvania and the Hungarian Plain also belonged to the Bulgarian empire." (Engel, Pál (2001). The Realm of St Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary, 895–1526. I.B. Tauris Publishers. p. 4). ISBN 1-86064-061-3.) Since Budapest is located in the central region of the intra-Carpathian territory both historians reject that Bulgaria whenever reached it. Borsoka (talk) 02:53, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

What do you believe the article should say instead? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:19, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

I made an attempt ([7]). Please feel free to modify it. Borsoka (talk) 05:57, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

"Titular Kingdom of Jerusalem"

According to the article, "By 1291 all the crusader states had been captured or forced from the mainland, although a titular Kingdom of Jerusalem survived on the island of Cyprus for several years afterwards." 1. First of all the cited source (Lock) does not verify the statement about a titular Kingdom of Jerusalem. We could verify that the rulers of the Kingdom of Cyprus bore the title of "King of Jerusalem". However, this title does not mean that a "titular Kingdom" survived in the island. Especially, because the Angevin kings of Sicily/Naples bore the same title. The author may want to refer to the fact that the Kings of Cyprus regularly granted Jerusalemite titles - seneschal of Jerusalem, Prince of Galilee, etc. - to Cypriote aristocrats, but I think this is not highly relevant in the article's context. Furthermore it should also be verified. (Edbury's book about the Kingdom of Cyprus could be used to verify the latter claim [8]) 2. In most cases, the term "crusader states" include Antioch, Edessa, Tripoli and Jerusalem. However, the article also mentions the Latin Empire of Constantinople, a state established by crusaders of the Fourth Crusades. Taking into account this context, the first part of the sentence ("by 1291 all the crusader states had been captured") may be misleading, because Frankish Greece - states established by crusaders after the Fourth Crusade - survived until the mid-15th century. For instance, the Duchy of Athens survived until 1456 (Lock, Peter (2006). The Routledge Companion to the Crusades. Routledge Companions to History. Routledge. p. 133. ISBN 978-0-415-39312-6.)

I removed the clause that is not verified by the source. I think that "Crusader states" is clear in context: the term only appears in that paragraph in this article and our linked article treats only the four Levantine states as Crusader states. Srnec (talk) 05:08, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. I shortened the text ([9]). Borsoka (talk) 05:29, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Cyril and Methodius, Cyrillic script, Old Church Slavonic

I may have been careless when reading, but I did not find any reference to Saints Cyril and Methodius, the Cyrillic script and Old Church Slavonic or their importance in the history of about 1/3 of European territory. Borsoka (talk) 02:10, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Al-Andalus

According to the article, "Southern Iberia remained under control of Islamic states, initially under the Caliphate of Córdoba, which broke up in 1031 into a shifting number of petty states known as taifas,[205] who fought with the Christians until the Almohad Caliphate re-established centralised rule over Southern Iberia in the 1170s." Actually, the cited source (Barber) says: "The last independent taifa ruler, in Zaragoza, fell to the Almoravides [in 1110]. ... [N]ew and formidable African forces were consolidating their hold over the remnants of the Almoravides in southern Spain. These were the Almohades..." (I use a different edition of Barber's book than the article, so I will not add the page numbers.) Borsoka (talk) 03:48, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I have reworded to remove the problem. The unsatisfactory result leaves out the Almoravids completely, but I'm not going to look up a source just to insert them at the moment when the only problem was the word "until". Srnec (talk) 04:38, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

@Srnec: thank you for your edit. Actually, there were two problems: time (1110 vs 1170s) and the main player (Almoravides vs Almohads). My concern is that the new text suggests that (1) the taifas survived until the Almoravids established a centralised rule in the 1170s, and 2. that the Christians conquered Sevilla from the Almoravids. Borsoka (talk) 04:47, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I modified the text ([10]). Please feel free to edit it. Borsoka (talk) 04:59, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Frederick II, his successors and the Mongols

According to the article, "[Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor] and his successors faced many difficulties, including the invasion of the Mongols into Europe in the mid-13th century. Mongols first shattered the Kievan Rus' principalities and then invaded Eastern Europe in 1241, 1259, and 1287." I have access only to the Hungarian translation of Davies's cited book, but it does not make a connection between Frederick and the Mongols. Indeed, Frederick II promised assistance to Béla IV of Hungary in return for an oath of allegience, but he never fight the Mongols. This whole sentence should be rewritten to reflect the actual historical events. The lasting effects of the Mongol invasions on Eastern Europe should also be mentioned briefly. Borsoka (talk) 05:53, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I can't fix the lacuna, but I have fixed the sentence in question (which, indeed, was not verified by the former source). It is a relatively minor point, compared to the Mongol impact further east, but it is a necessary segue for now. Srnec (talk) 16:17, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. My concern is that the Mongol invasion had only a minor impact on the Holy Roman Empire: it was a real, but never realized threat. I think we do not need to make connection between the Mongol invasion and the empire in this article. Borsoka (talk) 23:09, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Immigration to Europe

According to the article, "The invasions brought new ethnic groups to Europe, although some regions received a larger influx of new peoples than others. In Gaul for instance, the invaders settled much more extensively in the north-east than in the south-west. Slavs settled in Central and Eastern Europe and the Balkan Peninsula." I have access only to the Hungarian translation of the cited source (Davies), but it does not say that new ethnic groups settled in Europe. Most Germanic tribes invading the Roman Empire came from Eastern and Central Europe, the Franks from Western Europe, the Alans and the Slavs from Eastern Europe. The Huns and the Avars indeed came from Asia, but they are mentioned in other context. Borsoka (talk) 00:22, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Fixed by Srnec ([11]). Borsoka (talk) 07:02, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Repetitions

In some cases, the same information is repeated in the article unnecessarily. Examples include:

• the conquest of Italy by the Ostrogoths (sections Later Roman Empire and New societies)
• the re-conquest of northern Africa and Italy under Justinian (sections Later Roman Empire and Byzantine survival). Borsoka (talk) 03:35, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Since nobody commented on the above remarks, I fixed the problem ([12]). Borsoka (talk) 07:03, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Justinian and the early Muslim conquests

According to the article, "Justinian's reconquests have been criticised by historians for overextending his realm and setting the stage for the early Muslim conquests, but many of the difficulties faced by Justinian's successors were due not just to over-taxation to pay for his wars but to the essentially civilian nature of the empire, which made raising troops difficult." First of all, the cited source (Brown) does not make connection between Justinian's reconquests and early Muslim conquests. Secondly, Brown writes of Justinian's "extravagance" that includes Justinian's "lavish building program" as well. Thirdly, Brown proposes that the "plague and long-term economic factors" caused the Byzantine Empire's decline during the reign of Justinian's successors. Borsoka (talk) 04:42, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps the causes of the transformation of Justinian's conquering war machine into an empire of "essentially civilian nature" should also be explained. Borsoka (talk) 05:17, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Since nobody commented on the abover remarks I fixed the problem, and deleted the obscure reference to the "essentially civilian nature" of the Byzantine Empire ([13]). Borsoka (talk) 07:05, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Theophanu

According to the article, "In 972, [Otto I, Holy Roman Emperor] secured recognition of his title by the Byzantine Empire, which he sealed with the marriage of his son Otto II (r. 967–983) to Theophanu (d. 991), daughter of an earlier Byzantine Emperor Romanos II (r. 959–963)." The cited source (Davies) verifies both parts of the sentence (the recognition of Otto's imperial title and Theophanu's imperial parentage). However, more specialized literature makes it clear that Theophanu was not related to the Macedonian dynasty. She was a niece of the upstart emperor John I Tzimiskes. Jonathan Shepard, the editor of The Cambridge History of the Byzantine Empire, writes that "Theophano was not in fact a porphyrogenita but "the most splendid niece" of Tzimiskes, as Otto II' dowry charter terms her. More than forty years later a chronicler could comment openly that she was non virginem desideratam" ("not the desired virgin") (Shepard, Jonathan (2017) [2008]. "Western approaches (900–1025)". In Shepard, Jonathan (ed.). The Cambridge History of the Byzantine Empire, c. 500–1492. Cambridge University Press. p. 548. ISBN 978-0-521-83231-1.). Likewise, Warren Treadgold makes it clear that Theophano was Tzimiskes's niece, also mentioning that "some of Otto's courtiers grumbled that Theophano was not a relative of the legitimate Macedonian dynasty" (Treadgold, Warren (1997). A History of the Byzantine State and Society. Stanford University Press. p. 510. ISBN 978-0-804-72630-6.) Finally, in his monography about the dynastic history of the German rulers, Herbert Schutz states that "it was not a porphyrogenita, a princess born to the purple, who was sent, but a non-imperial niece of the successor emperor, Theophanu" Schutz, Herbert (2010). The Medieval Empire in Central Europe: Dynastic Continuity in the Post-Carolingian Frankish Realm, 900-1300. Cambridge Scholars Publishing. p. 64. ISBN 978-1-4438-1966-4.). The claim that Otto's imperial title was acknowledged by the Byzantines is not mentioned in any of the cited sources. Borsoka (talk) 02:12, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

@Johnbod: you may want to read before reverting again. Borsoka (talk) 03:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

@Epinoia: you may want to read before reverting. Borsoka (talk) 04:22, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

And you might want to revise how to place links in tags (since you do so many) - and check afterwards whether your links actually work. Johnbod (talk) 12:13, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your advice. Yes, I should not have assumed that experienced editors knew that they could find relevant remarks on the Talk page (even it was explained by the tag itself). Yes, I have placed so many tags in this FA. Please let me know if any of them were baseless, I do not want to tear this FA apart. Borsoka (talk) 12:50, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

If you try to link to something, just make sure the link actually works. A link to a section on another page will not work. There was nothing to indicate you had opened a section on talk - let's face it, you usually do not do this when tagging, though you should. Johnbod (talk) 17:49, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

What is unclear—beyond Theophano's descent—is what motivates an editor to tag an article when they find an error—and it is an error even though it matches the source—when they have sources available to correct the error themselves? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:37, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Despite claiming a multitude of FAs and GAs, when attacking articles not written by him, Borsoka likes to claim (as he does above here) that his English is not up to even suggesting a rewording. As we know from Crusades etc. Johnbod (talk) 17:49, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps I want to improve the article? This is the most disgusting motivation in WP. Shame on me, shame on me. I often edit articles written by other editors. For instance, in contrast with the above statement, I am a major contributor to the Crusades article ([14]). I also expanded the section about military affairs in Crusader states ([15]). In a civilised society, my tags would be thanked because they indicate actual problems. In this strange circle of editors, I have been attacked from the start. This "FA" does not meet GA criteria because it contains unverified claims, marginal scholarly PoVs and its lead does not present the main text neutrally. Perhaps you also want to improve it instead of making ad personam remarks. Borsoka (talk) 03:25, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't think anyone doubts your content creation, which includes a vast array of high quality articles. While I understand the concerns of other editors, at the end of the day Borsoka is bringing up legitimate issues, the solving of which will certainly improve the article. This FA is now 8 years old, and would be due for a WP:URFA look over anyways. One can either react to this defensively (or simply leave, as in a thread above), or collaboratively. I choose the latter, perhaps it will result in something positive. The first part of the concern in this thread seems to be largely addressed by the article text now noting contradiction in sources. I am unsure on the second part (on the recognition); if the sources do not outright say that Otto's imperial title was not acknowledged, can we really assume that that means Davies is wrong? Aza24 (talk) 04:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your remarks. The first part is still problematic: she was not Romanos' daughter or niece, but Tzimiskes' niece according to all specialized sources. I am not sure that Otto's imperial title was acknowledge on this occasion. Do we have to mention it? Davies is not the best source for specific claims in European history. Borsoka (talk) 04:45, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

I deleted the whole sentence ([16]). Borsoka (talk) 07:00, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Khazars

The article dedicates a whole section to the rise of Islam in the Near East, mentions Otto III's staying in Italy without mentioning its relevance in the article's context, but makes no reference to the Khazars, although they were one of the dominant powers of Eastern Europe for centuries. They were the sole great power to adopt Judaism as state religion and their secure hold of the steppe corridor between Central Asia and Eastern Europe prevented the influx of nomadic peoples to Europe until the early 9th century. Borsoka (talk) 02:18, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Since nobody made comments on the above, I fixed the problem ([17]). Borsoka (talk) 06:58, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Moravia

The article mentions the Christianization of Moravia, but there is no mention of the fate of this country. I think a sentence about the importance of this country and its fall should be inserted. Borsoka (talk) 02:19, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Why? We can't cover everywhere in detail. What would it say? Johnbod (talk) 03:51, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Moravia was the first country where Slavonic literature flourished. Furthermore, if Christianization of Moravia is mentioned, its collapse should also be mentioned. Borsoka (talk) 03:57, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Even the History of Moravia barely covers this, under a misleading header. The peak "Greater Moravia" period only lasted about a decade, and indeed it seems very unclear what its territory was, and the degree of Moravian control over it. As so often, the more detailed articles should be sorted out first. Johnbod (talk) 04:13, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

"Great Moravia" existed for at least half a century. When discussing an article that dedicates a whole section to events in the Near East and a whole sentence to Otto III's staying in Italy, are you sure we cannot mention the flourishing literature and the fall of the first Slavic empire? Borsoka (talk) 04:33, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Pretty much. Johnbod (talk) 17:31, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Why? Borsoka (talk) 17:35, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"Great Moravia", if it ever existed, was a short-lived state entity in Central Europe, whose territorial extent is even highly disputed and it is not certain that we can speak of a single proto-state called "Moravia". In such a comprehensive article, it is enough to mention Moravia briefly. --Norden1990 (talk) 19:53, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, in a short sentence, without mentioning the controversial issues. Now, it is mentioned as an existing state, without any reference to its fall and its role in the development of Slavic literature. Borsoka (talk) 01:43, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

The development of the Slavic literature is connected to the activity of Cyril and Methodius, which influenced other short-lived hypothetical Slavic "states" too, like the Principality of Lower Pannonia and the Principality of Nitra. Even Hungary, a more prominent and tangible country has altogether only 6 mentions in this article. Even in the most optimal case, Greater Moravia had existed for five decades. But it is very likely that it is a state formation that never existed and was artificially constructed a millennium later.--Norden1990 (talk) 08:56, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

What is clear that a state called Moravia existed somewhere in Central Europe, but it quickly disintegrated. For the time being the article only refers to its establishment. Borsoka (talk) 09:08, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Even the date and circumstance of its disintegration are unknown. Contradictory positions coexist in Slovak historiography. What was the cause? 1st standpoint: Hungarians defeated the Moravians: emphasis on a "thousand years of slavery". 2nd standpoint: Slovaks (=Moravians) invited Hungarians to settle and adopt Christianity, and the Slavs became catalysts of the Christian statehood of the Hungarians. At the same time they are prisoners and initiators of the Hungarian kingdom., which reflects a state of splitting of consciousness in Slovak historiography. The date of disintegration is also in question. 894? 907? 1108? (Slovak historians claim the institution of ducatus was in fact the survival of Slavic statehood as "Duchy of Nitra"). I don’t think such uncertain theories could be displayed in an article as comprehensive as the current one. Instead of Moravia, we should emphasize the activity of Cyril and Methodius and their contribution to the Glagolitic then Cyrillic script. --Norden1990 (talk) 23:17, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

The sources cited in the article are clear: Moravia disintegrated after the Magyar invasion. The article is not comprehensive in this respect (either): for the time being Moravia does not cease to exist. Borsoka (talk) 01:35, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Franks,

According to the article, "The Franks, Alemanni, and the Burgundians all ended up in northern Gaul..." Actually, the Alemanni settled to the west of the upper Rheine, the Burgunians along the Rhone. None of the two territories could be described as located in northern Gaul. Borsoka (talk) 04:57, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Fixed by Srnec ([18]). Borsoka (talk) 07:12, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Angevins in France

According to the article, "Under the Angevin dynasty of Henry II (r. 1154–89) and his son Richard I (r. 1189–99), the kings of England ruled over England and large areas of France, brought to the family by Henry II's marriage to Eleanor of Aquitaine (d. 1204), heiress to much of southern France. Richard's younger brother John (r. 1199–1216) lost Normandy and the rest of the northern French possessions in 1204 to the French King Philip II Augustus (r. 1180–1223)." I have not access to the cited sources (Backman, Loyn), but it is a well-known fact that Normandy, Anjou, Maine (and Bretagne) were not "brought to the family by Henry II's marriage to Eleanor". The two sentences are especially confusing, because Philip II Augustus seized these three (or four) realms from the Angevins. Borsoka (talk) 15:42, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

The Angevin kings of England lead puts it better: The Angevins (/ˈændʒɪvɪnz/; "from Anjou") were a royal house of French origin that ruled England in the 12th and early 13th centuries; its monarchs were Henry II, Richard I and John. In the 10 years from 1144, two successive counts of Anjou in France, Geoffrey and his son, the future Henry II, won control of a vast assemblage of lands in western Europe that would last for 80 years and would retrospectively be referred to as the Angevin Empire. As a political entity this was structurally different from the preceding Norman and subsequent Plantagenet realms. Geoffrey became Duke of Normandy in 1144 and died in 1151. In 1152 his heir, Henry, added Aquitaine by virtue of his marriage to Eleanor of Aquitaine. Henry also inherited the claim of his mother, Empress Matilda, the daughter of King Henry I, to the English throne, to which he succeeded in 1154 following the death of King Stephen. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:54, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Fixed (dubious statement deleted) by myself ([19]). Borsoka (talk) 07:13, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Avars and the Pontic steppes

According to the article, "In the 560s the Avars began to expand from their base on the north bank of the Danube". One of the cited sources (James) indeed makes reference to the Avars' staying in the lands to the north of the Danube, but the same source makes it clear that the Avars came from Central Asia and they were staying in the lands north of the Danube only for a short period. I think the sentence is misleading. Borsoka (talk) 18:04, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Or in the case of the elite, from East Asia, as suggested by dna studies of elite cemeteries. What would "a short period" be? There was much earlier Greek mention of Avars, but these were perhaps the same lot. "Base" does not suggest a very permanent homeland, so I don't see how the sentence is misleading. What would you suggest? Johnbod (talk) 18:55, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Those who began to expand in the 560s came from Central Asia (at least according to the cited sources). The Avars were first mentioned by Agathias and Menander the Guardsman [Curta (2006), p. 61] around the time they first appeared in Europe in the 550s. You are right, if we do not want to mention that the Avars came from Central Asia, the sentence is perfect. Could we say that the crusaders began to expand towards the Holy Land from their base in northern Syria without mentioning their places of origin in Europe? Borsoka (talk) 01:55, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Fixed by myself ([20]). Borsoka (talk) 07:14, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Since the language (alliance bit) is at best unidiomatic, or downright ungrammatical, it is MUCH better if you PROPOSE CHANGES HERE FIRST! I don't understand why you object to doing this. Johnbod (talk) 05:21, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

You should decide what you want. Above you and your pal suggested that I did not want to edict this article for some unethical reasons ([21]). Now you are shouting at me for editing the article. Sorry, I prefer to work with members of the guild of copyeditors. Borsoka (talk) 05:29, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Who's my "pal"? You don't seem to like working with anyone, but the guild of copyeditors are a notoriously variable bunch. Johnbod (talk) 17:26, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

They are able to cooperate with editors who are not native English speakers. You are wrong. I enjoy working with lots of editors. You can find many examples on this Talk page. I think this Talk page is not the best platform to analyze my psychological features. Borsoka (talk) 17:34, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

A general remark

In several cases, the article ignores chronology unnecessarily. For instance, in section "Byzantine survival" the Avar Khaganate is destroyed in 796, and in a next chapter ("Rise of Islam") we are informed about the early Muslim conquests between 632 and 750. Similarly, the Magyars/Hungarians are converted to Christianity and establish Hungary in the Carpathian Basin in section "New kingdoms and Byzantine revival", but their conquest of their future homeland is briefly mentioned in a following chapter ("Rise of state power"). I agree that we do not need to follow chronology, but in specific cases the ignorance of chronology is quite disturbing. Borsoka (talk) 07:28, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

@Johnbod: perhaps you want to read before reverting and reverting.... Borsoka (talk) 17:21, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Muslim expansion across the Pyrenees

According to the article, "The breakup of the Abbasid dynasty meant that the Islamic world fragmented into smaller political states, some of which began expanding into Italy and Sicily, as well as over the Pyrenees into the southern parts of the Frankish kingdoms." I do not have full access to the cited source (Bauer), but I assume that pages 147-149 do not verify the statement because they deal with events that occurred in the 5th century. Furthermore, I do not remember that the small Muslim realms expanded "over the Pyrenees into the southern parts of the Frankish kingdoms". Perhaps the main contributor to the article wanted to refer to the conquest of some Provencal forts by Arab and Berber corsairs? Borsoka (talk) 07:40, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

I expect they meant the Umayyad invasion of Gaul. Johnbod (talk) 04:37, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

No. Please read the quote before commenting. Borsoka (talk) 05:13, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Eastern monasticism, Athos

The article fails to mention the development of Orthodox monasticism and the importance of Mount Athos for Eastern Orthodox communities, although it dedicates several sentences to Western monasteries, monks. Borsoka (talk) 05:16, 16 January 2022 (UTC) @Johnbod: perhaps you want to discuss the issue here instead of reverting. By the way, could you refer to a reliable source stating that Benedict of Nursia wrote his Rule "for western monasticism" as it is stated in your preferred version? Borsoka (talk) 06:30, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Religious beliefs in flux and strands comming together

According to the article, "Religious beliefs in the Eastern Roman Empire and Iran were in flux during the late sixth and early seventh centuries. Judaism was an active proselytising faith, and at least one Arab political leader converted to it. Christianity had active missions competing with the Persians' Zoroastrianism in seeking converts, especially among residents of the Arabian Peninsula. All these strands came together with the emergence of Islam in Arabia during the lifetime of Muhammad (d. 632). First of all, the cited source (Collins) does not write that religious beliefs "were in flux" in the Eastern Roman Empire and Iran (Persia). He mentions that in both empires "religious affiliation was linked to political allegiance". He also writes of a "religious fervent" in the period, but strictly in connection with conversions to Judaism, and Zoroastrian and Christian missionary activities outside of both empires. (Actually, after the 451 Council of Chalcedon religious beliefs were not in flux in the Eastern Roman Empire until the Muslim conquest: most Syrians, Egyptians and Armenians insisted on their "heretical" Myaphisite beliefs, while the rest of the empire remained Orthodox.) Secondly, Collins mentions Jewish, Zoroastrian and Christian proselytism as the "background to ... the emergence of Islam", without suggesting that Jewish, Zoroastrian and Christian activities "came together with the emergence of Islam". Borsoka (talk) 02:30, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Italo-Normans

According to the article, "Normans also settled in Sicily and southern Italy, when Robert Guiscard (d. 1085) landed there in 1059 and established a duchy that later became the Kingdom of Sicily." Although I have access only to the Hungarian version of the cited source (Davies), it makes clear that the first Normans settled in southern Italy in 1017, and does not say that Robert Guiscard landed in Italy (or Sicily?) in 1059. Borsoka (talk) 14:29, 17 January 2022 (UTC) @Johnbod: your latest revert indicates that you can refer to reliable sources verifying the above quote from the article. Could you name it? Borsoka (talk) 06:35, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Palaeologi

@Johnbod: based on your revert, I understand you do not know that Palaeologi is the plural for Palaeologos. Would you say in English that "Tudors kings" and "Habsburgs emperors"? Borsoka (talk) 06:34, 18 January 2022 (UTC)