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== US Public Debt vs US Private Debt ==

Something's missing here. If there's a page dedicated to "United States Public Debt", why isn't there one so titled for "United States Private debt"? If understanding the "debt ceiling" invokes this page on "United States Public Debt", why not one similarly titled and detailed called "United States PRIVATE debt"?

Understanding the economic buzz surrounding the term "debt ceiling" might be easier to grasp if there was a similarly titled page called "United States PRIVATE Debt". I know I'd like to compare and contrast the two concepts. I'd write it myself, but I don't know what I'm doing, and the person who wrote and formatted the former should also format and write the latter to better contrast the two concepts (besides, quite frankly I don't even know what balancing a checkbook means (bozo_de_niro@37.com).

Also, the article frequently refers to "total debt". Total debt includes public (government) debt, personal debt and corporate debt for both financial and non financial corporations. All references to "total debt" should be qualified as "total public debt" or more clearly "total governmental debt". <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding
[[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/192.100.130.7|192.100.130.7]] ([[User talk:192.100.130.7|talk]]) 08:20, 18 June 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Forgive me and maybe I'm writing in the wrong place but isn't the total federal government debt the face value of currently outstanding treasury securities minus the purchase price, not simply the face value alone? The total value of new u.s. treasury securities the average month this year will likely exceed 1 trillion dollars, but the treasury receives about 900 billion in the purchase price back. So the gross marketable treasury securities outstanding must have a value of around 200 trillion at any given time, I'm guessing. I imagine this is necessary to establish bond liquidity and dollar stability among other things.


== Carmen & Rogoff debt-to-GDP threshold at 90 % is gross debt NOT public debt ==
== Carmen & Rogoff debt-to-GDP threshold at 90 % is gross debt NOT public debt ==
Line 72: Line 63:
_______________________________________
_______________________________________

== Unhelpful nominalization and other shortcomings ==

Section 3, Debt Ceiling, states:
"The U.S. government proposes a federal budget every year, which must be approved by Congress."
'The U.S. government' is far too vague. I came to this page because I don't know how the debt ceiling works and I want to learn. I know the Executive Branch, the House, the Senate and the Judicial Branch each have budgets they publish periodically (probably also the Pentagon and every government agency). They are all 'the U.S. government' and none of them is. Who, exactly, proposes this budget and does it include all these other budgets? Is it the same as the Executive budget or separate from it?
Also, "extraordinary measures" further down in the section, needs at least one concrete example.
The first paragraph, about the Bond Act of 1917 is very clear. The limit applied to the total amount of issue in bonds.
Then things get vague:
"nearly all federal debt" - what has been added to bonds?
"The Treasury is authorized to issue debt needed to fund government operations..." - does that mean or include regular issuing of currency or is the distinction between bonds and currency inmaterial?
Sorry, I know this is a difficult topic to write about, but I'm just not finding what I need to know on this page. Can someone fix, please?[[User:Baon|Baon]] ([[User talk:Baon|talk]]) 22:59, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

:Clarified government; changed to U.S. president and linked the federal budget process article.[[User:Farcaster|Farcaster]] ([[User talk:Farcaster|talk]]) 00:01, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
:Gave an example of extraordinary measures and included a link to the Geithner letter, which spells out the measures.[[User:Farcaster|Farcaster]] ([[User talk:Farcaster|talk]]) 00:01, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
:Issuance of currency is probably immaterial.[[User:Farcaster|Farcaster]] ([[User talk:Farcaster|talk]]) 00:03, 7 December 2012 (UTC)


== Wrong numbers in foreign/domestic debt ratio ==
== Wrong numbers in foreign/domestic debt ratio ==
Line 96: Line 71:
It's best to make that amount a cross reference. It is too hard for Wikipedians to update changing numbers in multiple places.
It's best to make that amount a cross reference. It is too hard for Wikipedians to update changing numbers in multiple places.
40% is about right in 2013.
40% is about right in 2013.

== [[United States credit default]] ==

Should be merged into this article or possibly not at all. Seems like a trivial mention that has not received the depth of coverage or asserts any lasting effects to warrant a standalone article. [[User:Mkdw|<span style="font-size: 13px arial; color: #3366FF;">Mkdw</span>]][[User talk:Mkdw|<sup>''talk''</sup>]] 18:04, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

:Yes, that is a good idea!--[[User:I am One of Many|I am One of Many]] ([[User talk:I am One of Many|talk]]) 18:22, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
{{merged-from|United States credit default|1 August 2016}}

== Deficits vs. National Debt Increases ==

The article contains a nice chart titled "Total Deficits vs. National Debt Increases," which shows that each increase in national debt is significantly larger than the corresponding deficit.

Two in particular stand out:
* In 2001, there was a budget surplus, yet the national debt still increased.
* In 2008, the budget deficit was under $500 billion yet the national debt increased by more than twice as much (about $1000 billion).

This goes against the popular misconception that the national debt is simply the cumulative effect of all previous deficits. In fact, national debt is much greater than the cumulative effect of all previous deficits.

The article really ought to have a full explanation of why this is. [[Special:Contributions/174.24.11.30|174.24.11.30]] ([[User talk:174.24.11.30|talk]]) 16:14, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

:See the section: Calculating the annual change in debt. Also, click on the chart for explanation.[[User:Farcaster|Farcaster]] ([[User talk:Farcaster|talk]]) 17:51, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

== [[Why is Federal Debt Not Depicted in the US Debt Chart?]] ==

In the two charts with black and red lines, labeled 'U.S. debt from 1940 to 2011' there are black and red lines, gross debt and public debt. Gross debt being the public debt plus federal debt. I understand public debt being private debt of individuals and businesses. I came to this article in search of the federal debt. And I found private debt, and something almost completely useless, called gross debt, out of which I cannot decipher federal debt. So why are we getting private and gross debt here instead of federal debt? Fixthedebt.org is one of probably many organizations displaying charts that look like that one, while campaigning to cut the federal debt. But the chart does not depict federal debt. Is this some sort of mistake? [[User:Rtdrury|Rtdrury]] ([[User talk:Rtdrury|talk]]) 04:18, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
:Maybe we can clarify it. National Debt = Debt held by the public + intragovernmental debt. The National debt is the gross debt (black line) while the debt held by the public is the red line. The difference is the intragovernmental debt. Securities owned by investors are the debt held by the public. The intragovernmental debt is owed to particular programs, such as Social Security.[[User:Farcaster|Farcaster]] ([[User talk:Farcaster|talk]]) 23:46, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

== Intergenerational equity ==

This statement -- "For every dollar of debt held by the public, there is a government obligation (generally marketable Treasury securities) counted as an asset by investors. Future generations benefit to the extent these assets are passed on to them, which by definition must correspond to the level of debt passed on." -- isn't correct as it stands. The bonds "passed on" to future generations via inheritance or gift do not "by definition" correspond to the level of public debt. The U.S. Treasury Department sells bonds, which carry a maturity (up to 30 years). When the bonds expire, the Treasury must sell new bonds. Future generations will purchase bonds to finance a given amount of debt. Say the debt is 100% of GDP. That doesn't mean that bonds worth 100% of GDP will be transferred by inheritance and gift to future generations. (There's a secondary issue here with estate taxation, which means that even when assets are "passed on," their full value isn't.)--[[User:Jsorens|Jsorens]] ([[User talk:Jsorens|talk]]) 16:53, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
:Yes, I believe they do by definition. Unless there are immortals running around. The debt is always offset by an equal amount of assets; that is why the debt exists. Let's use an example. Let's say a bunch of 30-year bonds are invested in by Generation 1 during a big debt run-up, then all dies on the same day and leaves the bonds to Generation 2. When the 30-year bonds mature, the government has to pay them off and issues new bonds to do so, giving the heirs in Generation 2 the cash and getting money from those in Generation 2 that want Treasuries and those in Generation 3. Sure, if everyone suddently decides not to buy treasuries, that is a fiscal crisis, but this is extremely unlikely. Either way, Generation 2 gets the money. I do agree on the tax point, although it is probably immaterial.[[User:Farcaster|Farcaster]] ([[User talk:Farcaster|talk]]) 17:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
::The bottom line is that the asset value passed on to the second generation does not equal the debt that must be paid by the second generation. New bonds must be sold to the second generation to cover the difference. Whether certain scenarios are "unlikely" or not doesn't pertain to a definitional question.--[[User:Jsorens|Jsorens]] ([[User talk:Jsorens|talk]]) 16:51, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
:::You cannot pass a liability to a subsequent generation without passing the asset. It is impossible. Each dollar of debt the government has at any point is offset by investors who own the assets. But I think the point is made whether the text you removed is there or not.[[User:Farcaster|Farcaster]] ([[User talk:Farcaster|talk]]) 19:09, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

== Federal government agencies? ==

The opening sentence of the article reads "The United States public debt is the money borrowed by the federal government of the United States through the issuing of securities by the Treasury and other federal government agencies." What federal government agencies? I don't think this is ever explained or expanded in the article. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Bondwonk|Bondwonk]] ([[User talk:Bondwonk|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bondwonk|contribs]]) 14:47, 24 April 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


== Where has the money gone? ==
{{Hat|Soapbox}}
A considerable amount of the Debt is bound up in accounts held in private hands and by the Federal Reserve as counted in the M2 and M3 money supply numbers. Those values, however, fall short of the number posted for the National Debt by several trillion dollars. Does anyone have any idea what's happened to it? Lost in bankruptcies? Strayed? Stolen? Foreign banks? Has anyone tried to account for it? Does anyone care? [[User:Zbvhs|Virgil H. Soule]] ([[User talk:Zbvhs|talk]]) 18:47, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, two-thirds of our debt comes from fiscal markets, and much of it is being sent to foreign banks and multinational corporations. So it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of our debt is stolen from plutocrats and their crony buddies. Yet Republicans, still to this day after reform of our welfare programs, love to believe most of our debt is being created from welfare recipents, which comprises a very small percentage of the entire government budget when combining discretionary and mandatory spending. I agree some aspect of our social security system needs reform (I support public works). What drives me crazy is how Republicans are too uneducated to understand that every time we cut taxes on the rich, our deficit skyrockets. [[User:Nashhinton|Nashhinton]] ([[User talk:Nashhinton|talk]]) 07:11, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
{{Hab}}

== Incorrect data, tables, charts ==

Wish I had time to fix all of the tables and charts in this article - most are at best incomplete or years old, some are simply incorrect with bad source data. The deficit chart at the top of the article has a bad horizontal axis (skips 1980). <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/75.136.227.247|75.136.227.247]] ([[User talk:75.136.227.247|talk]]) 01:46, 15 August 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: I agree. Additionally, the main chart under "history of the national debt" cryptically shows projections. Why is it showing projections on a section that is historical? It's a total POV push. I don't have the time or expertise to fix either.[[Special:Contributions/69.255.44.231|69.255.44.231]] ([[User talk:69.255.44.231|talk]]) 16:08, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
: I discovered two-year old [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=National_debt_of_the_United_States&diff=461880791&oldid=461684940 vandalism by 173.188.131.109] completely unremarked upon, replacing the total debt of FY 2010 of $13,551 billion with the incorrect $12,311 billion. Will someone with a registered user name please place a vandalism notice on this user's IP address? [[Special:Contributions/99.165.238.66|99.165.238.66]] ([[User talk:99.165.238.66|talk]]) 07:36, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

This first graph (Percentage of Gross Domestic Product) has some program glitch, so that when the graphic is clicked on to enlarge, a page of code appears. May be an easy fix for some coder but not me. [[User:GeeBee60|GeeBee60]] ([[User talk:GeeBee60|talk]]) 14:53, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

[[File:FederalDebt1940to2015.svg|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FederalDebt1940to2015.svg]]

I agree that out-of-date graphs and charts are bad. Isn't there some way to generate new charts automatically?[[User:Jamesdowallen|Jamesdowallen]] ([[User talk:Jamesdowallen|talk]]) 11:47, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

== Where's the Money? ==

The article doesn't explain what's happened to all those trillions of Dollars that have been borrowed. Where are they? Do they form the basis for the US Dollar and the Money Supply? Isn't unlimited growth of the Debt a form of debasement? It might be useful to include a discussion of the relationship between the National Debt and the Money Supply and why the two don't match up. [[User:Zbvhs|Virgil H. Soule]] ([[User talk:Zbvhs|talk]]) 17:59, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

:About half of it has gone to Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security recipients. 15-20% has gone to the military-industrial complex. The rest has disappeared into various nooks and crannies - the War on Drugs, NASA, Pell grants, quail sex research, et cetera. I think what you're trying to ask is "where has the inflation gone?" - why creating 20 trillion dollars' worth of government debt and injecting that money into the economy hasn't somehow resulted in 20 trillion more cash dollars floating around in the economy. The answer, as best as I understand it, is that the inflation has been sent into the future and the surplus money is temporarily being removed from circulation. It's like printing $100 bills with notes on them saying "not legal tender until ten years from now", and selling them for $95 each in real money to actually pay the government's expenses. However, someone who knows more about the subject might be able to correct me or provide more detail.

== Government Shutdowns ==
In "Relationship to appropriation process" the 2013 shutdowns should be added. <small><span class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:GioCM|GioCM]] ([[User talk:GioCM|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/GioCM|contribs]]) 18:10, 5 February 2014 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Chicago plan revisited ==

Re [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=National_debt_of_the_United_States&oldid=597649314&diff=prev], none of the sources in the removed paragraph look unreliable to me, and some of them are clearly prestigious commentary on the original IMF documentation. What kind of an RS is needed here? [[User:EllenCT|EllenCT]] ([[User talk:EllenCT|talk]]) 11:23, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

== Foreign holders - grouped economic areas ==

I recently revised the [[National debt of the United States#Foreign holders of US Treasury securities|Foreign holders of US Treasury securities]] table to include collapsible lists for each separate jurisdiction of the three grouped economic areas per the Treasury's monthly holdings report (http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt). I also changed the order of those jurisdictions within each group list based on either estimated or exact volumes of holdings:

For the Treasury report's listings of "Caribbean banking centers" and "United Kingdom" (see note below) economic areas, I simply used the Treasury's annual survey to determine which jurisdictions are the more significant holders of securities: http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/shla2013r.pdf. Example - in the Caribbean, the Cayman Islands and Bermuda are clearly the major contributors, so it's sensible to list them before Bahamas, Panama, etc.

For "Oil exporters", I used a combination of known values from the same annual survey (Indonesia, Venezuela, and Ecuador are listed separately there) and relative volumes of the remaining countries' oil outputs divided between the additional holdings breakdowns of "Middle East oil exporters" and "African oil exporters". My main source for the oil data was CIA World Factbook, but I'm open to other suggestions in that regard.

Additionally, the economic area which the Treasury lists as "United Kingdom" but which includes the Crown Dependencies (which are NOT part of the United Kingdom) should properly be listed as the [[British Islands]]. [[User:Farolif|Farolif]] ([[User talk:Farolif|talk]]) 01:53, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


---Hmmm?---
"The measure of the public debt is the value of the outstanding Treasury securities that have been issued by the Treasury and other federal government agencies.[which?]"

Is this "which" tag necessary in this sentence? The federal agencies that owe portions of the debt are variable... and they fluctuate, correct? Unless someone were to update the article daily with a laundry list of agencies, it does not seem very likely that measuring which agencies owe is reasonable. It may however be more reasonable, to portray a not all-encompassing list within the contexts of a given year as in a table. [[Special:Contributions/107.147.68.11|107.147.68.11]] ([[User talk:107.147.68.11|talk]]) 04:05, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

== Payment? ==

Hi,

I watch the debt clock often, and in the last 4 days we had 2 very large increases, is it because salary/wage (or how you call it?) for the people that get their money from Uncle Sam? We would have there: over 1,375,000 active US Military + unknown (but large) number of civilian workers, and ~23,635,800 "Goverment Employees"... and over 45,2 million americans who get Food Stamps (was already higher after the Crisis which started in 2007, its going down since the job market is recovering).

Of course we have not only wages... prisoners need food/electricity, the Army needs money for fuel, spare parts and new projects for example in the "Research, Development, Testing & Evaluation" which was 63.347 billion in Fiscal Year 2013. On last Wednesday the debt clock was standing at around 18,610 billion debt... than in 2 large steps it increased to almost 18,662 billion...

How are federal employees paid? I know that many things in the US are paid weekly? Rent for flat? In Europe or at least Germany and Poland we do not have such things. I also heard that some private working people are paid weekly??

Greetings [[User:Kilon22|Kilon22]] ([[User talk:Kilon22|talk]]) 12:16, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what they are doing in Washington these days... maybe the Military needs money from the "Oversea Contingent Operations Fund" or how it is called already much earlier because of the flights in Syria and Iraq. I mean most of these costs there are for Kerosene fuel and ammunition. But not only the french deployed the only non-US nuclear aircraft carrier to attack "ISIL", the US got ships there too. The [[USS Carl Vinson]], [[USS Theodore Roosevelt]] and the [[USS George H.W. Bush]] have been there as a carrier strike group, all nuclear powered too. But this does not mean it is not expensive to have them on sea. Food is needed, the desalination of water to drinkable water costs much energy too, also electricity for ship systems and for the soldiers private consumption (smartphones, small tablets/notebooks, thousands of lights all over the ship, maybe heating depends on where they are and weather) for the crew of over 5,000 (USS Carl Vinson even over 6,000 crew), the propulsion consists of 4 shafts with 194,000 kW. Using the energy means that the uran fuel rods will not last soo long since they are used.

But this is a long term thing like with a car, you drive one kilometer and it losses worth slowly because of this. Kerosene and food are brought by non-nuclear "Replenishment oiler" which bring diesel, kerosene, ammunition, food to all the ships with their own propulsion, in many cases diesel engines and not very strong, the ships usually are not very fast. But the new "Supply Class" for example got 4 of the very popular General Electric LM2500 gas turbines with 78,000 kW (105,000 hp). But the size and tanks for the crude oil/fuels limit the speed even for this class at 26 knots, many other oilers with diesel engines were much slower (14-16 knots) but therefore the fuel use was low compared to the gas turbines. For the aircraft carrier food and jet fuel is the most they need if they fly many missions. Depends how close they are to the territory and how much the fighters/bombers have to fly over the water into Syria/Iraq... I know they use a lot of aircraft there and each of it has a capacity of some thousand liters each, with special drop tanks even more, and they need every liter... the fact that one liter of jet fuel has a weight of 0.775 - 0.800 kg per Liter. This means a machine with 4.000 kg internal fuel capacity can take ~5,000 Liters or even a bit more to reach the 4,000kg. The drop tanks with 250 Liters has a weight of around ~200 kg only...

In less than 2 Weeks the US Debt Clock increased from ~18,610 billion to ~18,704 billion... why?! I mean that is already ~30% of the whole planned deficit for the Fiscal Year 2016 (1 October 2015 - 30 September 2016)!

Greetings [[User:Kilon22|Kilon22]] ([[User talk:Kilon22|talk]]) 12:46, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Another extreme rise! 18.776 trillion debt now! I don't know what's going on there, I did read something that money for someone is needed, but in this amounts?! Costs for the Operations in Syria and Iraq (and slightly increased ground troops with equipment in Kuwait and a few in the desert border region of Saudi-Arabia and Iraq)? Kuwait is logistical no problem, and desert... not really too, a few flights with the large [[Boeing CH-47 Chinook]]... I will upgrade per capita and per taxpayer debt again [[User:Kilon22|Kilon22]] ([[User talk:Kilon22|talk]]) 10:31, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

€dit: I found another way, not so cool but it does its effect, I just forgot something, but I will do not anopther 5th edit, or can I put the 4 edits together to one?! I did not wanted to spam, I just did not realize it for hours (look at times) that the www was wrong since I had the Debt Clock already opened I did not try to open it through the link there, later I tried and it failed and I corrected it as good as I could in a short period of time...

== Reference ==

Hey, I updated the statistics very often in the last weeks, I have a question about a reference:

* The national debt equates to $58,650 per person U.S. population, or $158,280 per member of the U.S. working taxpayers, as of January 2016.<_ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.http://usdebtclock.org|title=United States Debt Clock|author=U.S. Department of the Treasury, Bureau of the Fiscal Service|date=January 26, 2014}}<_/ref>

Is there a way, that the "United States Debt Clock" appears first (down where the references are listed) and not the author first and title after the author?! Greetings from (Non-English) Europe ;) Sorry for spelling errors [[User:Kilon22|Kilon22]] ([[User talk:Kilon22|talk]]) 15:48, 26 January 2016 (UTC)


== Introduction Text ==
== Introduction Text ==
Line 232: Line 89:
Over the course of the five-year span of hyperinflation, the inflation rate fluctuated greatly. At one point, the US Ambassador to Zimbabwe predicted that it would reach 1.5 million percent. In June 2008 the annual rate of price growth was 11.2 million percent. The worst of the inflation occurred in 2008, leading to the abandonment of the currency.'' '''The peak month of hyperinflation occurred in mid-November 2008 with a rate estimated at 79,600,000,000% per month. This resulted in US$1 becoming equivalent to the staggering sum of $Z2,621,984,228,675,650,147,435,579,309,984,228'''
Over the course of the five-year span of hyperinflation, the inflation rate fluctuated greatly. At one point, the US Ambassador to Zimbabwe predicted that it would reach 1.5 million percent. In June 2008 the annual rate of price growth was 11.2 million percent. The worst of the inflation occurred in 2008, leading to the abandonment of the currency.'' '''The peak month of hyperinflation occurred in mid-November 2008 with a rate estimated at 79,600,000,000% per month. This resulted in US$1 becoming equivalent to the staggering sum of $Z2,621,984,228,675,650,147,435,579,309,984,228'''


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== The chart depicting national dept with congressional control is wrong ==

The chart in [[National_debt_of_the_United_States#Debt_ceiling]] shows a divided congress for 2003 - 2004. The divided congress actually happened in 2001 - 2002. The facts quoted below are found in the footnotes for [[Party_divisions_of_United_States_Congresses]]:

"The Democratic Party controlled the 107th Congress from January 3 to January 20, 2001 (50/50 tie with Vice President Gore as the deciding vote) and from May 24, 2001 to January 3, 2003 (after Senator Jim Jeffords left the Republican Party to become an Independent and caucus with the Democrats).

The Republican Party controlled the 107th Congress from January 20, 2001 (50/50 tie with Vice President Cheney as the deciding vote) until May 24, 2001, when Senator Jim Jeffords left the Republican Party to become an Independent and caucus with the Democrats.

In the 107th Congress (after May 24, 2001), and in the 108th Congress and 109th Congress, Independent Jim Jeffords of Vermont, chose to caucus with the Democratic Party."

But in 2002 the Republicans won the majority in both houses of the congress and Jeffords didn't matter. The Republicans kept both houses of the congress from Jan. 2003 until Jan. 2007. I have no clue as to how to fix the graphic.[[User:Mikcob|The Trucker]] ([[User talk:Mikcob|talk]]) 07:45, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130120020448/http://www.htisec.com/en/research/shownews.jsp?newsType=DJ&newsid=c-20120808DN019794 to http://www.htisec.com/en/research/shownews.jsp?newsType=DJ&newsid=c-20120808DN019794
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110716215602/http://www.the-privateer.com/usdebt/40-60.html to http://www.the-privateer.com/usdebt/40-60.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110716215656/http://www.the-privateer.com/usdebt/61-71.html to http://www.the-privateer.com/usdebt/61-71.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110513163115/http://www.the-privateer.com/usdebt/71-79.html to http://www.the-privateer.com/usdebt/71-79.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110716215712/http://www.the-privateer.com/usdebt/79-86.html to http://www.the-privateer.com/usdebt/79-86.html
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110716215850/http://www.the-privateer.com/usdebt/87-97.html to http://www.the-privateer.com/usdebt/87-97.html

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== External links modified (February 2018) ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on [[National debt of the United States]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/825619752|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120417053737/http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2013/assets/hist.pdf to http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2013/assets/hist.pdf
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040202103102/http://publicdebt.ustreas.gov/ to http://www.publicdebt.ustreas.gov/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120815175925/http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/noll.publicdebt to http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/noll.publicdebt
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110413040637/http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/ to http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/

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== Debt: inter, intra, and public ==

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=National_debt_of_the_United_States&curid=322221&diff=861337665&oldid=860535398 This edit] caught my eye. The edit summary says: ''Paragraph 2 previously stated that that the US national debt was comprised of "intergovernmental debt" and "intergovernmental debt." Clearly someone made an error, as the second (and largest) components is "public debt."'' The edited assertion currently reads: "The US national debt can be divided between [[intragovernmental debt]] and public debt."

I dug back into the article history, and found [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=National_debt_of_the_United_States&diff=prev&oldid=855093976 this edit], which simplified an assertion saying "The US national debt can be divided between [[intragovernmental debt]], also known as [[public debt]], and intergovernmental debt." by removing the part which said that ''public debt'' is also known as ''intragovernmental debt''.

This part of the article, as it currently stands, goes on to divide gross national debt into two components, which it names ''Debt held by the public'' and ''Debt held by government accounts or intragovernmental debt''. This is alongside [[:File:US National Debt public intergovernmental.png |a figure]] which appears to divide national debt into two components named ''Public debt'' and ''intergovernmental holdings'' (in the figure) or ''intergovernmental debt'' (in the caption), and which does not show any intragovernmental component. (read that again, paying attention to ''inter'' vs. ''intra'')

I don't really understand this stuff. so I went looking for further clarification. I found {{cite web|url=https://www.gao.gov/assets/680/674652.pdf|title=FINANCIAL AUDIT : Bureau of the Fiscal Service's Fiscal Years 2015 and 2014 Schedules of Federal Debt|work=Report to the Secretary of the Treasury|publisher=United States Government Accountability Office}} That report includes a statement that, "As shown on the Schedules of Federal Debt, these balances consisted of approximately (1) $13,124 billion as of September 30, 2015, and $12,785 billion as of September 30, 2014, of debt held by the public and (2) $5,014 billion as of September 30, 2015, and $5,025 billion as of September 30, 2014, of intragovernmental debt holdings." From that statement, it appears that the $12 or $13 billion of "debt held by the public" ("public debt"??) is not exactly the same thing as the $5 billion or so of "intragovernmental debt".

That report goes on to say, "Intragovernmental debt holdings represent federal debt owed by Treasury to federal government accounts—primarily federal trust funds such as Social Security and Medicare [...]. intragovernmental debt holdings are not shown as balances on the
federal government’s consolidated financial statements because they represent loans from one part of the federal government to another. [...] Under U.S. generally accepted accounting principles, when the federal government’s financial statements are consolidated, those offsetting balances [speaking there, I think, about intragovernment debt] are eliminated." ("are eliminated"??) I see that the article mentions ''intragovernmental debt'' quite a lot. Intragovernmental debt, as I read that report, is eliminated in a consolidated statement of national debt.

I'm confused about inter, intra, and public debt. Also, as I've said, it seems to me that the figure mentioned above disagrees with the edited assertion as it currently stands. [[User:Wtmitchell|Wtmitchell]] [[User talk:Wtmitchell|(talk)]] <small>(earlier ''Boracay Bill'')</small> 09:25, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
{{od}}Taking another look at that historical edit I linked above, I see that it is the next-to-last edit of a dozen consecutive edits by an anon which, taken together, amounted to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=National_debt_of_the_United_States&type=revision&diff=855213453&oldid=855090777 this]. Those edits. taken together, inserted the again-edited assertion which initially caught my eye here as''The US national debt can be divided between [[intragovernmental debt]] and intergovernmental debt.'' (that assertion seems to make sense). I also see that [[Public debt]] redirects to the [[Government debt]] article, which that article defines as ''the debt owed by a government''. (re-edited) [[User:Wtmitchell|Wtmitchell]] [[User talk:Wtmitchell|(talk)]] <small>(earlier ''Boracay Bill'')</small> 12:30, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
{{od}}My confusion must be getting tiresome, but I just noticed another thing. The ''Definition of public debt'' section of this WP article does not seem to give a clear the definition of that term. That section kicks off with a reference to [https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/27/bad-analysis-at-the-deficit-commission/ this] article, in which [[Paul Krugman]] talks about "debt owed to the public". That seems to be a very different thing than what is talked about by WP at [[Public debt]]→[[Government debt]]. [[User:Wtmitchell|Wtmitchell]] [[User talk:Wtmitchell|(talk)]] <small>(earlier ''Boracay Bill'')</small> 12:44, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

== Nomination. ==

Most of this debt is nominated in what? In US dollars? --[[User:Sidoroff-B|Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii]] ([[User talk:Sidoroff-B|talk]]) 00:47, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

== CARES Act update needed. ==

The United States is currently spending upwards of $2.3 trillion fighting COVID-19, which was neither budgeted nor forecast at the beginning of 2020. What impact does this have on the national debt? [[User:BD2412|<span style="background:gold">'''''BD2412'''''</span>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 03:15, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion ==
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
* [[commons:File:Government debt gdp.png|Government debt gdp.png]]<!-- COMMONSBOT: speedy | 2020-06-06T16:40:07.887500 | Government debt gdp.png -->
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —[[User:Community Tech bot|Community Tech bot]] ([[User talk:Community Tech bot|talk]]) 16:40, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

==A glitch in editing mode?==
{{help me-helped}} I was unable to update this article. Edit mode displays a partial or a blank page. Suggestions? [[User:Oceanflynn|Oceanflynn]] ([[User talk:Oceanflynn|talk]]) 18:34, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
: The article is approximately 110K which is not so large that I would expect it to fail to load. You should be able to edit sections even if you can't edit the entire article, if there's some size limit holding you up on your end. If the problem persists on your current computer, you might want to try editing from a different device to see if you can identify where the 'glitch' is coming from. '''[[user:jmcgnh|<span style="color:#2eb85c">—&nbsp;jmcgnh</span>]]<sup><small>[[user talk:jmcgnh|<span style="color:#1e5213">(talk)</span>]]&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/jmcgnh|<span style="color:#73b516">(contribs)</span>]]</small></sup>''' 22:31, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

== Debt-to-GDP ratio is a duration, not a percentage ==

Wikipedia correctly points out [[Debt-to-GDP_ratio#Units|here]] that the debt-to-GDP ratio is a duration, not a percentage, but follows the popular misconception of the percentage in this article and probably many others. FWIW, this is a pet peeve of mine and I would love to see it corrected, but I'm not going to attempt it unilaterally because the misconception is so widespread and correcting it in a few places might just increase confusion. [[User:Hashproduct|Hashproduct]] ([[User talk:Hashproduct|talk]]) 17:26, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
: Wikipedia is not really here to cater to pet peeves. The section you indicated and deemed "correct" is not sourced to anything like a reliable source and, while it has a point in a simple mathematical dimensional analysis, it ignores the concept of [[time value of money]] which would apply whenever we consider a flow of monetary amounts over multiple years. I'm removing it. '''[[user:jmcgnh|<span style="color:#2eb85c">—&nbsp;jmcgnh</span>]]<sup><small>[[user talk:jmcgnh|<span style="color:#1e5213">(talk)</span>]]&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/jmcgnh|<span style="color:#73b516">(contribs)</span>]]</small></sup>''' 01:40, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

== Debt that other countries owe to the United States government ==

The USG owes 20 trillion dollars to various entities, but is also ''owed'' trillions of dollars ''by'' other countries. This is extremely relevant to any discussion of the US debt - if we owed 20 trillion but other countries owed us 30 trillion, then we'd actually be 10 trillion in the black, not 20 in debt. According to data.worldbank.org, our "net foreign assets" - which I'm told means foreign debt owned by the United States minus United States debt owned by foreign countries - is 190 billion dollars. Since foreign countries own $7.04 trillion of the US debt, this means other countries owe the USG $7.13 trillion.

The article should include a section about this, but it would need better sources. Can anyone find a direct source of this information, rather than calculating it? [[Special:Contributions/73.70.13.107|73.70.13.107]] ([[User talk:73.70.13.107|talk]]) 00:08, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

== "The United States has the largest external debt in the world." ==


Other than the spelling error ('spendings' instead of 'spending,' maybe non-native English or bot submission?), the article referenced as evidence has been updated & also doesn't support the statements present (references May report not included in article released in April and updated in June, numerical totals of expected spending are different). This isn't adding anything meaningful & doesn't promote any embellishment like a stub would. This sub-heading should be removed or reworked as a symbolic link to a separate wiki entry specifically covering the 2020 & 2021 pandemic related spending by the U.S.A.
This is misleading to readers and says nothing substantive about U.S. debt. The U.S. has the largest debt because of the country's size. The meaningful information about debt is its share to GDP or some other relative measure. Keeping this text in serves to mislead readers into thinking the US debt is a serious problem and a massive aberration when it's not by any sensible measure. [[User:Snooganssnoogans|Snooganssnoogans]] ([[User talk:Snooganssnoogans|talk]]) 13:59, 26 January 2021 (UTC)


== Chart out of date ==
:The article has debt relative to GDP already before this, so the most common normalized measure is already discussed. It is a fact, which like all facts can be used in misleading ways, but is itself not deceptive. [[User:Barnhorst|Barnhorst]] ([[User talk:Barnhorst|talk]]) 15:30, 27 January 2021 (UTC)


The chart, here, [[National debt of the United States#/media/File:U.S. Federal Net Interest as Pct GDP.png]], is about 10 years old and may be easily misunderstood to be current. Recommend deletion. [[User:D wigglesworth|D wigglesworth]] ([[User talk:D wigglesworth|talk]]) 03:44, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
== Irrelevant Information in History? ==


It can be found in this section, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_of_the_United_States#Interest_and_debt_service_costs <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:D wigglesworth|D wigglesworth]] ([[User talk:D wigglesworth#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/D wigglesworth|contribs]]) 03:48, 21 April 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
I couldn't help but notice how half of the paragraphs in the History section are about 2017-2018, with little insight on why these two years are relevant in the history of the national debt. Would it be better to shrink it down into a couple of sentences or erase it altogether? [[User:Springfield2020|Springfield2020]] ([[User talk:Springfield2020|talk]]) 21:48, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 13:01, 21 April 2024

Former good article nomineeNational debt of the United States was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
May 24, 2009Good article nomineeNot listed
In the newsA news item involving this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on August 6, 2011.

Carmen & Rogoff debt-to-GDP threshold at 90 % is gross debt NOT public debt[edit]

I emailed Carmen Reinhart about this question specifically and asked which one it is that they meant. She replied that it is gross debt, not public debt(or net debt).

Our exchange:

Hello,

I just wonder about the 90 % threshold of public debt which usually induces a GDP growth slowdown.

In the latest working paper from April this is defined as 'public debt'. Correct me if I am wrong, but the net public debt is around 68 % for the U.S.(and forecasted to rise to about mid-70s within a year or two and then stabilize).

However, America's gross debt is now over 100 %.

Which measure should be used? And can gross debt be used too for this? The term used in the working paper from April was 'public debt' - not net public debt.

I would be very happy if there was some kind of clarification on this as googling have not made me wiser!

_______________________________________________________________________________

Yes it is gross debt, which for the US is above the 90% threshold. This is the longest time series beginning in 1790. It is central (federal government), so it does not include state debt and government sponsored enterprises, which now include the two mortgage giants best Carmen

Carmen M. Reinhart Dennis Weatherstone Senior Fellow Peterson Institute for International Economics 1750 Massachussetts Avenue, NW Washington DC 20036-1903 tel. 202-454-1325 fax. 202-659-3225 creinhart@piie.com http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~creinhar/ www.carmenreinhart.com

_______________________________________

Wrong numbers in foreign/domestic debt ratio[edit]

This article from gao.gov: http://gao.gov/assets/650/649848.pdf , states that about 5 % of the debt is from foreign investors, on Page 18. But the wikipedia article says around 40%. The sources to this page are from the banks of the lending countries, and I would say that the US have more credible numbers, than China and Taiwan.

It's best to make that amount a cross reference. It is too hard for Wikipedians to update changing numbers in multiple places. 40% is about right in 2013.

Introduction Text[edit]

Hey, I do not know a better word, but in the first paragraph right on the start of the article (paragraph? really? dictionary is stupid or?!) at the end there is written:

On June 30, 2015, debt held by the public was $13.08 trillion or about 74% of the previous 12 months of GDP.

This is the "public debt", but we are in the National Debt article, this sentence is very... confusing for persons who have no idea what is public and what is national debt. The public debt at the Date was I would say already far over 18 trillion dollar and over 100% of the GDP. Right now we have national debt to GDP ratio according to the US Debt Clock: 103.9855% GDP debt (means whole US economy, everything what is produced, done, consumed and so on in a whole year would not be enough to pay off the debt, if the state would "shutdown", no lights, no electricity on the street, nothing, if every cent would go to debt for a whole year... If the US would be a European Country with the common problems of South-Eastern European States (Most of these are today seperated states which were created after the Balkan War, which the younger people, okay I'm young too, lets say people under 20 years old can not remember anything of any news reports or so about the Balkan War and the European and US intervention (back than the World was okay, China became oil net importer in 1993, Soviet Union just had fallen down after it carried the whole almost puppet-states, with the East-German being the best (I talked to my mother, born in Poland, and I have some family still living in today very west Poland, meaning less than 100 kilometers air distance to the German Border (which is unguarded since January or May 2004, I think May 2004, "clicks", is it military or do you really can say it to a civilian?!) problem: there is no direct route to the Border, since the border is the "Odra" (river) you have to drive north, away from us (air distance) and than in the former "Frankfurt (an der Oder)" (Frankfurt (on the Odra) to seperate from the 10-times larger city of Frankfurt in West-Germany with the highest financial buildings and I think there is the main German stock, like the NYMEX in New York, DAX it is called...

anyway I think the US CAN do it and handle it somehow without an deflation, which often occurs before the real inflation begins, and with a very large inflation ("Hyperinflation"), in this case the debt would be away without doing anything further, but it will not happen to the us dollar, the Zimbabwe-Dollar had numbers which I can not translate (since 1 billion in English is 1 "Milliarde" in German for example), it was something with 15 or 16 numbers, first two where 92 and I think followed by 12 or 14 zeros... this was the rate in PER CENT (!). It was the heaviest Inflation known or in "newer history", would be the easiest way for the US Goverment, but it would also make the rich people poor.

See here I found it:

During the height of inflation from 2008 to 2009, it was difficult to measure Zimbabwe's hyperinflation because the government of Zimbabwe stopped filing official inflation statistics. However, Zimbabwe's peak month of inflation is estimated at 79.6 billion percent in mid-November 2008.

In 2009, Zimbabwe stopped printing its currency, with currencies from other countries being used Over the course of the five-year span of hyperinflation, the inflation rate fluctuated greatly. At one point, the US Ambassador to Zimbabwe predicted that it would reach 1.5 million percent. In June 2008 the annual rate of price growth was 11.2 million percent. The worst of the inflation occurred in 2008, leading to the abandonment of the currency. The peak month of hyperinflation occurred in mid-November 2008 with a rate estimated at 79,600,000,000% per month. This resulted in US$1 becoming equivalent to the staggering sum of $Z2,621,984,228,675,650,147,435,579,309,984,228

"COVID-19 pandemic and 2021 spendings" sub-heading[edit]

Other than the spelling error ('spendings' instead of 'spending,' maybe non-native English or bot submission?), the article referenced as evidence has been updated & also doesn't support the statements present (references May report not included in article released in April and updated in June, numerical totals of expected spending are different). This isn't adding anything meaningful & doesn't promote any embellishment like a stub would. This sub-heading should be removed or reworked as a symbolic link to a separate wiki entry specifically covering the 2020 & 2021 pandemic related spending by the U.S.A.

Chart out of date[edit]

The chart, here, National debt of the United States#/media/File:U.S. Federal Net Interest as Pct GDP.png, is about 10 years old and may be easily misunderstood to be current. Recommend deletion. D wigglesworth (talk) 03:44, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It can be found in this section, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_of_the_United_States#Interest_and_debt_service_costs — Preceding unsigned comment added by D wigglesworth (talk • contribs) 03:48, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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