Talk:Satellite state: Difference between revisions

Would anyone (in the U.S.) ever describe a state as a U.S. "satellite state"? --user:Daniel C. Boyer, June 24, 2002

The expression was used in Western Europe in the same sense and with the same meaning as in the article. If I well remember it was derived from a sentence in a speech of someone in the 60s (J.F.Kennedy?). I believe the article is correctly neutral as it is. Gianfranco June 24, 2002

I'm an American, and I'd describe, say, South Vietnam or (for some purposes) even Israel as a "satellite" of the U.S.. 'Course, I'm not mainstream for this country by any means. All that said, if "satellite state" was historically applied primarily to Eastern Europe (and I don't know that it wasn't), then the article seems NPOV now. OTOH, it could certainly stand to be expanded with more examples too. Toby Bartels, Monday, June 24, 2002

In its usual sense (Warsaw Pact) the term seems inaccurate - the Warsaw Pact nations were nothing more than puppet states controlled from Moscow. To me the term 'satellite state' would suggests a country internally independent but part of an involuntary alliance - such as Prussia and Austria in 1810 (at the height of Napoleon's power), or Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria during World War II which supported the Nazis out of fear.

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This article should be merged with Satellite country. --Hcheney 03:46, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Dont revert legitimate edits in an edit war

It's bad to have a dangling clause before the definition and China is not the article we should link to when referring to the People's Republic of China. I don't think those changes were controversial. Don't revert them. --Jiang 13:11, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree that Shorne's habit of automatic reversion is not charming. Boraczek 16:08, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Misinformation

The expression was used in the US corporate media

The expression "satellite state" is now used by historians, journalists and common people all over the world. For example, it is also used in Poland. The suggestion that the usage of that expression was restricted to the US corporate media is misleading and, frankly, sounds somewhat paranoiac.

Central and Eastern European countries of the Warsaw pact during the Cold War, which they accused of being politically tightly controlled by the Soviet Union (from 1945 until 1989).

It's not a matter of accusation. The countries of the Warsaw Pact were tightly controlled by the Soviet Union. There is a lot of evidence proving that - Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968, consulatations with the Soviet rulers before making any major political decision in the satellite states, etc.

Leaders in Western Europe consulted the US before making major decisions, does this mean they were tightly controlled? Soviet troops were in Hungary prior to the internal strife - they actually *withdrew* so as to avoid causing friction, eventually Janos Kadar and the government asked them to come back in. Czechoslovakia was a Warsaw Pact action, not a "Soviet" action.

Western European countries could change their government without obtaining permission from the US, Warsaw Pact countries had to have government accepted by the SU.

The SU Union attacked Hungary in November 1956. The Hungarian government didn't ask Soviets to come in, unless you mean the puppet government created by Soviets to justify their intervention.

Czechoslovakia was indeed a Warsaw Pact action, but it doesn't change the fact that the Soviet army attacked Czechoslovakia when it tried to have too much independence in internal affairs. Boraczek 08:44, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Italy was not allowed to change its government. The two largest parties were the Christian Democrats but the Christian Democrats were the only party allowed to have power during the Cold War. American torpedoing of 1948 election results wasn't even hidden, with a continuous stream of involvement which hit another peak in 1976 (although sub rosa this time) and continued on.

Italy changed its government 41 times between 1948 and 1989 and None of these changes required acceptance of the US. Christian Democrats didn't always govern alone. In 1963 the government was formed by Christan Democrats, Republicans, Social Democrats and Socialists. But no permission of the US was required to introduce socialists into the government, nor does the US attack Italy in 1963.

And why are you *so* sure? It is evident that the US policy, unlike the more "sincere" Soviet one, consists of supposedly "democratic" ellections where most parties are basically the same, as they respond to them.

None of the elections in Italy was falsified, unlike elections in communists states. If Christian Democrats hold power for many years, it is because they won elections, not because a foreign empire installed their government and was ready to use force to protect it (as in the Eastern bloc). Boraczek 17:12, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Italy, France and West Germany, countries under the tight political control of the US.

Italy, France and West Germany were not under the tight political control of the US (except for the after-war period). If someone looks for satellite states of the US, in my opinion they should look for them in Latin America. Soviet Union, however, exercised considerably tighter control over some Central European countries than did the US over Latin America countries. Boraczek 16:05, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Shorne knows his edits are unacceptable. He makes them anyway and then demands that people negotiate with him. That is his modus operandi. VeryVerily 17:50, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

US troops remained in West Germany and Italy until the Cold War ended (and afterwards). In France US troops were there for decades. The US interfered massively and without even trying to disguise the fact in Italian elections in 1948, was involved behind the scenes in the 1976 elections and was involved throughout Italy's history (as well as France and West Germany). It's very difficult to hide how Italy was a satellite state of the US, at least by the yardstick of Eastern European countries being "satellite states" of the USSR.

Italy enjoyed much greater independence than the satellite states of the Soviet Union. Could you please say what your sources are, Ruy Lopez? I mean the sources you base your opinion on Italy and Eastern European countries on? Boraczek 08:44, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

My sources are declassified State Department memoes, NSC memorandums and directives and other declassified reports. As History_of_the_United_States_National_Security_Council_1947-1953 says, the very first NSC action in 1947 was to undermine Italy's elections. This continued through the Cold War. Post Cold War is still classified, but with Colin Powell openly telling the Ukraine who they should ignore elections and install a pro-US leader today, that the US government is secretly aiding Berlusconi today is not much of a strecth.

OK, these are sources related to Italy. What about Eastern Europe? Boraczek 17:12, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The expression is used by anti-communists to describe the Central and Eastern European countries of the Warsaw pact

Not only anti-communists used and use this expression in this sense. In fact, it was also used by Yugoslavian communists.

Anti-communists claim these countries were controlled by the Soviet Union

This is not what anti-communists claim. These are simply well-known facts (admitted by some communists as well).

It is not a fact by any means. Even Gerald Ford said that Poland was not a satellite state of the USSR while president. I can't think of a better endorsement of the idea than from a sitting Republican president. At that point, it only becomes a fact in John Birch literature.

The Soviet hegemony is a fact that I know from my own life experience, as I lived in a satellite state of the USSR. And this fact is recognized in most historical books. So maybe you should read some historical books instead of listening to Gerald Ford, whatever he said. Boraczek 08:44, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Many European countries were members of the Warsaw Pact. The USSR was the most powerful and it certainly had influence. Just as the US had influence in NATO. But it seems in every article on Wikipedia, the US is an angel who was "protecting" Italy and France from the evil Warsaw Pact, controlled by the USSR, which was controlled by the Kremlin. I am simply holding the US and the USSR to the same standards.

No, you are not. You are holding the US and the USSR to different standards to obtain the same result. Both the US and the USSR had their spheres of influence. I don't deny political influence of the US in Italy. But you overlook the difference between Italy and the satellite states of the USSR. You notice the American influence in Italy and you think it is enough to claim that Italy and Warsaw Pact countries were in the same situation. It is not enough. Italy enjoyed much greater independence than Hungary or Bulgaria despite American efforts to hamper communism in Italy. Influence can be bigger or smaller, but you overlook the difference and say that influence is always the same. Boraczek 17:12, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Eastern bloc noted the independence of the socialist republics, which like Yugoslavia were free to do as they will

Socialist republics of the Eastern bloc were not free to do as they will. Yugoslavia was not a satellite state. The Eastern bloc did not always note the independence of Yugoslavia. In early 19550s the Eastern bloc accused Yugoslavia of being a servant of capitalist countries. Boraczek 14:57, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Was Italy free to go communist and join the Warsaw Pact? It was not and there's a ton of policy decisions and paperwork by the US showing this (and a lot more that is still classified). In fact, Italy was run by one party through the entire Cold War. Of course, Albania was allowed to leave the Warsaw Pact. So who was free and who wasn't? Ruy Lopez 18:54, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Soviet Union didn't permit Albania to leave the Warsaw Pact. When Albania tried to gain more independence, the SU stopped sending economic aid and food to Albania (even if Albania was on the edge of famine) and finally broke off diplomatic relationships with Albania. Albania was able to escape from the Soviet orbit thanks to some advantageous circumstances: 1) conflict between the SU and China; 2) there were no Russian troops in Albania; 3) None of neighbouring countries was a Warsaw Pact country.

You didn't substantiate the statement that people who describe the Eastern bloc countries as satellite states are anti-communists. I wonder if you could do it. Boraczek 08:44, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Again, no substantiation. So I feel free to edit. Boraczek 17:12, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have rewritten the article. Is it acceptable to you now? Or do you have some objections? Boraczek 17:50, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Current edits

I would just like to say that I have never heard any U.S. ally referred to as a "satellite state." I have heard of places like Panama referred to as banana republics, but that's about it. In contrast, the term is employed constantly in reference to the Soviet Union and its Eastern European satellites -- cuz that's what they were, satellites for a buffer zone and an extension of Communist influence. The term "satellite" doesn't make much sense for U.S.-supported governments, usually referred to by detractors as puppets or, as i said in the case of Central America, banana republics. J. Parker Stone 06:18, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

MT is making an analogy between puppet states and satellite states -- the two are not synonymous, as i mentioned above. J. Parker Stone 01:32, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

what is this? it's a factual term used to refer to Eastern Europe post-WWII, not "perjorative." just because anti-communists have made use of the term doesn't make it biased in nature -- i'm sure you could get some critics of U.S. Cold War policy to refer to them as Soviet satellites. J. Parker Stone 02:32, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

It's pejorative because it is exclusively used to criticize Soviet foreign policy, and because the USSR itself vehemently rejected it. You won't hear anyone saying "The Soviet Union had satellite states... and that was a good thing." -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:42, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Now, I have an issue with your definition. You say "Satellite state is a political term that refers to a country which is formally independent but is primarily subject the domination of another, larger power. It was initially used to refer to...". But if it can refer to any country which is formally independent but is primarily subject the domination of another, and if it was only initially used to refer to Eastern Europe, that means it has also acquired other uses in more recent years. However, you deny that any such uses exist. So which is it? -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:42, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

For the record, I would very much prefer to keep the generic definition and have the article give examples of non-Soviet satellites as well as Soviet satellites. I'm leaving the decision up to you, though. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 00:03, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Soviet propaganda may not have classified them as "satellite states," but there is no serious historian who disputes that they were. yes it can be used as an anti-communist criticism, but that does not alter its factual accuracy. now maybe if we were talking about somewhere like Cuba, Angola, or Mozambique there might be a "perjorative" issue, but we aren't. J. Parker Stone 11:25, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Soviet historians (as well as Eastern European historians during the Cold War) certainly did not consider them "satellite states". Now, you may argue that those historians were just reciting propaganda, and you may be right, but this still does not give you the right to present your own POV as unquestionable reality. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 20:07, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Mihnea, criticism or a critical perspective of this or other aspects of Soviet policy does not connotate "pejorative" (i.e. disparaging, belittling) language. The term in fact has respect informally as well as in scholarly discourse on the subject, as opposed to things such as "puppet state" (and a multitude of other epithets) which were in fact commonly directed towards the U.S. but are not very relevant to this particular article. --TJive 12:32, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Note also that these other terms imply a much harsher and more readily apparent pejorative view than "satellite state" which is almost anti-septic in comparison, which in fact demonstrates less of a willingness to engage the regime with the same rhetorical flair as the US and other examples such as Nazi Germany, though in fact the USSR has also been accused simply of running "puppet states" on their own part. --TJive 12:36, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

The main point of my edit did not revolve around the word "pejorative". My assumption of good faith is running thin, because both you and Trey Stone seem to ignore my central point on purpose. And that point, once again, is the following: If "Satellite state is a political term that refers to a country which is formally independent but is primarily subject the domination of another, larger power", as your version claims, then clearly the Soviet Union could not have been the only great power with satellite states. Either (1) the term "satellite state" specifically refers to Soviet puppets - and NOT to any country which is formally independent but is primarily subject the domination of another, larger power - or (2) the term refers to a multitude of puppets, not just Soviet ones. Now, this is not a POV dispute, it's a dispute of common logic. I have expressed my willingness to let you define the term "satellite state" however you like, but please, for God's sake, be consistent with your definition. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 20:07, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

The issue is not the worthiness of the criticism but its notability; I'm afraid you misunderstand the intention. Satellite state can very well be applied, with varying degrees of plausibility, to many nations and empires in history but it typically has not been. --TJive 03:00, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Ah, that makes a lot more sense. Thank you. I will go edit the article accordingly. Also, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding regarding your previous rv and the dispute tag. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 09:47, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't have any major objections about content as is. The tag can be removed if agreed. --TJive 23:52, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I will go remove the tag, then. It was nice working with you. :) -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 01:37, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I'm new here so please be patient with me if I happen to break some code of ethic which I am not aware of, but I have a couple of questions concerning the article.

I was just wondering why are the only Satellite states given as examples happen to be under Soviet control. I think that this might give the wrong impression to people because if the definition used is: "Satellite state is a political term that refers to a country which is formally independent but is primarily subject the domination of another, larger power". The problem is that even though there are probably hundreds of examples out there from throughout all of human history the only ones given were under Soviet control or at least implied Soviet control. The change I am hoping for would be that another example be given like in South America during the Cold War, Carthage after the 2nd Punic War or the Italian states that were under Austria following the Congress of Vienna. James 1789 04:20, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Artificial State redirect isn't correct

I just noticed that the "artificial state" wikipedia entry redirected to this article. That technically isn't correct. I just wrote a quick starter article for "Artificial state". Help improving it to something worthy of wikipedia is appreciated.

Satellite states are brilliant. To be one is the greatest thing in the world. I know I love them. And, oh yeah, they're homo.

Proposal for Merge

How exactly does a satellite state differ from a satellite nation? FerralMoonrender 00:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)