Talk:Sudanese civil war (2023–present): Difference between revisions
Chaotic Enby (talk | contribs) →"Supported by" section in the infobox: new section |
Karl Oblique (talk | contribs) →Egypt as a belligerent: Reply |
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[[User talk:Karl Oblique|<span style="font-family: courier; color: #222;">K. Oblique</span>]] 07:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC) |
[[User talk:Karl Oblique|<span style="font-family: courier; color: #222;">K. Oblique</span>]] 07:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|Karl Oblique}} The two citations placed next to Egypt note state that Egyptian aircraft have been involved in airstrikes against RSF and that Egyptian personnel have been providing intelligence and tactical support to SAF. The second citation reaffirms from RSF that an unnamed country has been launching airstrikes against them. Destroyed aircraft and POW's you have cited above are wholly unrelated to Egyptian involvement. Reinstated. [[User:Ecrusized|Ecrusized]] ([[User talk:Ecrusized|talk]]) 07:57, 26 April 2023 (UTC) |
:{{ping|Karl Oblique}} The two citations placed next to Egypt note state that Egyptian aircraft have been involved in airstrikes against RSF and that Egyptian personnel have been providing intelligence and tactical support to SAF. The second citation reaffirms from RSF that an unnamed country has been launching airstrikes against them. Destroyed aircraft and POW's you have cited above are wholly unrelated to Egyptian involvement. Reinstated. [[User:Ecrusized|Ecrusized]] ([[User talk:Ecrusized|talk]]) 07:57, 26 April 2023 (UTC) |
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::* "Unnamed country" is, almost tautologically, rather weak support for any one country. |
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::* As above, some ex-CIA making bold statements on Twitter is not a reliable source. |
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::* The conflict parties seem to agree, possibly even against better knowledge, that Egypt '''isn't''' involved. Otherwise, ''why should RSF return Egyptian POWs within days if they consider them enemies''? |
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::[[User talk:Karl Oblique|<span style="font-family: courier; color: #222;">K. Oblique</span>]] 08:02, 26 April 2023 (UTC) |
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== "Supported by" section in the infobox == |
== "Supported by" section in the infobox == |
Revision as of 08:02, 26 April 2023
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sudanese civil war (2023–present) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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map
the map should be improved + it shows Sudan's claimed borders and does not reflect the disputes Braganza (talk) 20:08, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
- Well you can edit it of you want. Borysk5 (talk) 20:46, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
- It really looks like the same from the day it was added. Are the contents inside the mao even being changed? 420atgm (talk) 08:45, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
People with red-green weakness cannot use the map, all provinces look the same. I cannot edit it. --2A00:20:C00F:32A:E597:8837:977C:744C (talk) 23:58, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- I will second this, I am colorblind and the map is almost useless to me. 174.54.170.218 (talk) 15:14, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Merowe
Just to clarify, is it Merowe, Merwi, Marwi or Marawi? And there should be a standard name for that throughout the article. Borgenland (talk) 04:24, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- Haven't heard of any other source calling it anything other then Merowe. محرر البوق (talk) 16:42, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- There were Arabic language sources (including an RSF pub) calling it Marawi/Marwi and I do get confused because when I listen to Arab broadcasts it does sound differentBorgenland (talk) 18:37, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- Probably because of the romanization of Arabic as the English script doesn’t have as many letters as the Arabic script, so it can get messy and confusing real quick. But from what I’m seeing most sources address it as Merowe, I guess you can add “also known as Marawi or Marwi” into its article if you have the links to those sources. محرر البوق (talk) 20:46, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- There were Arabic language sources (including an RSF pub) calling it Marawi/Marwi and I do get confused because when I listen to Arab broadcasts it does sound differentBorgenland (talk) 18:37, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Borgenland
- It's currently Merowe, but changed in the Arabic languages to Marawi or Marwi and romanized as Merwi and Merowe, but the official name is Merowe.
- NYMan6 (talk) 19:21, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
Thank you so much for all your clarifications! Borgenland (talk) 14:43, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
To confuse you a little bit more: there are two locations of this name in the Sudan: (1)-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mero%C3%AB مرواه or مروي (2)-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merowe,_Sudan مروي number (1) is 200 km north-east of Khartoum number (2) is 220 km north of Khartoum at the Merowe dam and has an airport called Merowe airport Both are close to the river Nile. If the Egyptian soldiers would have been taken captive in (1), it would be of interest in regard of Ethiopia. If in (2), there is a direct train connection to Wadi Halfa and Egypt. The Arabic name of both locations is the same, so it would be important to make clear which one is meant. --2A00:20:C00F:32A:19C3:8F6C:4E5C:EF56 (talk) 23:33, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- you're gonna make the guy lost LOL balladsone 04:02, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Merowe airport
Add it, man. 46.188.173.25 (talk) 10:30, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Need more information. FusionSub (talk) 14:01, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- It has a section on the article. Oddballslover (talk) 14:44, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Flag
The rapid support forces and the Sudanese armed forces have there own flag which should be inserted other than the Sudanese flag DitorWiki (talk) 14:52, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
Requested move 21 April 2023
This move request was closed as not moved by editor Oddballslover at 00:29 on 25 April 2023 (UTC). P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 01:21, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
2023 Sudan conflict → 2023 Sudanese conflict – I propose to change the article title from 2023 Sudan conflict to 2023 Sudanese conflict DitorWiki (talk) 14:59, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Weak Support: I find that Sudanese fits more, more complex conflicts usually have the actual nationality/denonym of the country, I support this claim. NYMan6 (talk) 19:55, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Lightly Support: However, @L'Mainerque and @25stargeneral have already had a discussion about this above. Maybe they can weigh in on this again. Ballads2110 (talk) 21:15, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: @Ballads2110 Yes, when we were discussing to change the name we discussed the same topic, I think this time it'll work let's see if they come! NYMan6 (talk) 21:22, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: @Ballads2110 & @NYMan6 I have thought about this already, and I do support adding the demonym Sudanese. It feels like I and @25stargeneral misunderstood each other in our previous discussion; I understand I used an example of a war of independence instead of something like the American Civil War, which more closely resembles the conflict we're discussing. 25stargeneral, I am sorry if I ever came off as unclear, and I'm sorry for not bringing up any concerns sooner. Going back to adding the demonym Sudanese, it really does make more sense in my opinion, but comparing reliable sources could help us out here. - L'Mainerque - (Disturb my slumber) - 21:30, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed, I'll go searching for several like I did last time NYMan6 (talk) 21:34, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- LINKS:
- https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/04/21/foreign-policy-news-quiz-sudan-conflict-china-ukraine-spring-offensive/
- https://news.yahoo.com/1-american-killed-ongoing-sudanese-164513031.html
- https://www.kff.org/news-summary/doctors-in-sudanese-conflict-zone-criticize-unicef-for-lack-of-vaccine-supply-guardian-reports/
- I don't see much yet, this is all I could find as of right now NYMan6 (talk) 21:41, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed, I'll go searching for several like I did last time NYMan6 (talk) 21:34, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Should we put the Template:Requested move on this discussion? I don't know how to do it without potentially compromising the message of the proposer, and furthermore, is it needed? - L'Mainerque - (Disturb my slumber) - 21:52, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Already done. I initially thought that it was forgotten, but now I do not know if I should revert. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 03:46, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Strong oppose: Already been discussed and rebuked above #Move reversion.. Cherry picking of sources should be avoided. Find me a BBC, CNN, and AlJazeera source and then let's have a discussion about this. FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:09, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Currently none of the sources that you have listed report this as the 'Sudanese conflict' mainly 'Sudan conflict' just like they use 'Ukraine war' NYMan6 (talk) 14:18, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose based on FuzzyMagma's point (the Move reversion discussion) and the fact that "Sudanese conflict" is used way, way less in news media than "Sudan conflict" Presidentofyes12 (talk) 15:03, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per FuzzyMagma. 〜 Festucalex • talk 10:02, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Its Sudan Conflict like it Vietnam War and Ukraine War Hind242 (talk) 13:48, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- It is not Ukraine war but Russian invasion of Ukraine DitorWiki (talk) 14:54, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Strong oppose per FuzzyMagma. --Firestar464 (talk) 17:46, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: like what @NYMan6 said, there was not that much talk about calling it the " 2023 Sudanese conflict". I think it should stay as the 2023 Sudan conflict unless it turns into a war or a Government invasion. Oddballslover (talk) 18:51, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per FuzzyMagma. FusionSub (talk) 14:03, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Strong oppose imho the title should be something like "third sudanese civil war" but as now it's better to leave the title as it is--Luix710 (talk) 17:34, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Wagner or Russia?
I'm on the opinion that Russia should be used in the belligerents sections of the infobox instead of Wagner. Wagner group is an arm of the Russian government that masquerades as being an independent entity. Ecrusized (talk) 17:15, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Belligerents are the military or a paramilitary not a country, Wagner should be used instead NYMan6 (talk) 18:11, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Note: User:NYMan6 is a 6 month old account spreading Russian propaganda related to Ukraine. [1], [2]. 19:26, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Noting that the note authored above was by @Ecrusized. - L'Mainerque - (Disturb my slumber) - 21:01, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- I was never spreading Russian propaganda @Ecrusized, those were reliable sources never Russian propaganda NYMan6 (talk) 01:07, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- that's a strong accusation, why is your signature not fully there if you're making such claim? @L'Mainerque had to ping you noting that you were the author - but cool ig. balladsone 03:59, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Ballads2110 I am having a hard time understanding what you mean by "but cool ig." May you elaborate? - L'Mainerque - (Disturb my slumber) - 04:22, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- ah, i meant it's okay! the ig stands for i guess. balladsone 04:44, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- @L'Mainerque it stands for 'I guess' NYMan6 (talk) 13:10, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- @NYMan6 & @Ballads2110 thank you! - L'Mainerque - (Disturb my slumber) - 15:33, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Ballads2110 I am having a hard time understanding what you mean by "but cool ig." May you elaborate? - L'Mainerque - (Disturb my slumber) - 04:22, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Note: User:NYMan6 is a 6 month old account spreading Russian propaganda related to Ukraine. [1], [2]. 19:26, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Disagree. If they are any sources stating that the Russian government is involved, feel free to add it. But as of right now the sources only state Wagner is involved, and they don't mention anything other then that. محرر البوق (talk) 19:50, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- It really shouldn't be, it can be called a PMC or a "network of mercenaries" but not a direct arm of the Russian government Presidentofyes12 (talk) 22:00, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
Intro
Given the way this conflict has developed since April 15, should the claims of control on April 15 still be in the intro? Blaylockjam10 (talk) 21:25, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Blaylockjam10 it shouldn’t. I think the lead need some work. Please give it a try FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:31, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Map
Does anyone familiar with the situation know how accurate is the map presented in the infobox or if it's covered by RS? Elserbio00 (talk) 09:24, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Like other conflict maps, reliable sources support edits to its module (formerly the Commons file itself before one was created) from which a template composed of icons representing population centers/infrastructure is used to determine territorial control. If you find the map's reliability questionable, verifiable edits should be made to that module or proposed on the map's talk page. Clyde H. Mapping (talk) 10:22, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Sources for analysis section
Here are some good sources for an analysis section - some parts to improve the background based on what has already happened prior to 15 April; and some for a separate analysis section towards the end, after Disinformation and before the Reactions section, for understanding of the sociological structures in Sudan (military and civilian) and what possibilities are seen (by named sources, either the newspaper or a named individual, not by unnamed "analysts") for how this may evolve or resolve:
- https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/sudan-unrest-all-out-war-heading-is
- https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/sudan-unrest-how-did-we-get-here
- https://sites.tufts.edu/reinventingpeace/2023/04/19/sudans-new-war-and-prospects-for-peace
- https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2023/04/meet-sudans-web-warlords-foreign-backers-and-their-tangled-alignments
- https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2023/04/how-sudan-fighting-could-impact-volatile-region
- https://africanarguments.org/2023/04/what-will-happen-in-sudan
Boud (talk) 12:01, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Boud, these sources are more likely to be used on Battle of Khartoum (2023) as this articles, background already has a small good summary. NYMan6 (talk) 13:33, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Wagner and Libyan Support
The Libyan general Haftar denied supporting the RSF, as has Wagner. As is said in the article in the section about foreign involvement. Shouldn't the wikibox reflect this? Genabab (talk) 12:19, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Casualties
Please don’t forget the casualties section when you update the death toll on the Introbox. Borgenland (talk) 13:03, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
United States evacuate embassy
President Biden of USA posted on Twitter at 11:10 PM EST on 22/4/2023 that U.S. military forces conducted operations to extract government personnel from Khartoum. Backed up by multiple international news sources. [1] Spacetaters (talk) 17:58, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Edit: NY Times reporting EU diplomats and citizens have started to be evacuated Sunday.[2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spacetaters (talk • contribs) 18:03, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
References
New article?
I think we should make a article about a refugee crisis, I've seen evidence of thousands of Khartoum residents and thousands of other people from all across the story fleeing to Chad and Egypt, the last reports reported the number at at least 20,000 for Chad but nothing for Egypt this number has probably rised as the conflict intensified even more after the ceasefire. I think there is enough info and enough intensity to make another article related to this, I'll also try and find sources to support this possibly.
NYMan6 (talk) 20:39, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Reactions section
It's too big and not formatted in the Wikipedia way. We've reached the point where it's not that informative just putting every single country's and organization's reactions. Not even the Reactions section in the Russian invasion of Ukraine article is that big. Yes, there's a separate article for that, but the main one is clear and concise. There's no need for the article to have "X country: X stated that Sudan is not safe to visit" times hundred. C4rstv0 (talk) 21:23, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Requested move 24 April 2023
It has been proposed in this section that Sudanese civil war (2023–present) be renamed and moved to Third Sudanese Civil War. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}} . Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. |
2023 Sudan conflict → Third Sudanese Civil War
According to Fox News and Washington post this as a civil war:
https://www.foxnews.com/world/president-biden-calls-civil-war-sudan-unconscionable-us-embassy-personnel-evacuate https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/04/23/sudan-civil-war-violence-future/ Oddballslover (talk) 23:48, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oddballslover: Firstly, Fox News is not a very reliable source when it comes to politics. Secondly, it's much too early. We still have time. We can wait until most reliable sources refer to this conflict as a civil war and then change its title. For now, though, we should wait. — Nythar (💬-🍀) 23:59, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Oddballslover, may you please explain why you close discussions in the future? You closed the previous move discussion without a reason. - L'Mainerque - (Disturb my slumber) - 00:01, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- I don't have a view on whether the title should be changed, I just wanted to add some context as I researched this a bit. It's much more than Fox News and Washington Post who refer to it as a civil war. I was able to find at least five others in a quick search of Google News and many, many more when searching Google proper. Of varying degrees of reliability. Notably: The Associated Press, The Economist and The Independent all referred to it as a civil war in at least one article/headline. However -- the consensus term does appear to be 'conflict'. Dwarfed by the amount calling it a civil war were those calling it a conflict. Google even seems aware of this as it shows lots of people calling it a conflict when you search for a civil war, thinking that's what you mean. JaHolo (talk) 00:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- There is 12 articles that the site has found of this being called a "civil war". Oddballslover (talk) 01:05, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- I'm sure that is accurate. But there are probably literally hundreds who call it a conflict, not a civil war. If and when those numbers reverse themselves, you'd have a stronger case here. JaHolo (talk) 04:23, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- There is 12 articles that the site has found of this being called a "civil war". Oddballslover (talk) 01:05, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Here's another civil war source https://www.crisisgroup.org/africa/horn-africa/sudan/stopping-sudans-descent-full-blown-civil-war and https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2023/04/20/sudan-is-sliding-towards-civil-war and https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/04/23/sudan-civil-war-violence-future/ and https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/04/19/sudan-conflict-generals-burhan-hamdan-hemeti-rsf/ and https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/4/22/sudan-crisis-whats-next-after-one-week-of-deadly-fighting
- Is this enough? PalauanReich🗣️ 00:33, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for finding more sources @PalauanReich. Oddballslover (talk) 00:37, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- heres even more. this one https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/sudan-war-american-trapped-trillian-clifford-b2325334.html and this one https://m.timesofindia.com/videos/international/explained-what-led-to-the-civil-war-in-sudan-and-who-is-general-dagalo/videoshow/99685007.cms and this one https://nypost.com/2023/04/22/sudan-to-evacuate-foreigners/ and this one https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sudan-war-fighting-2023-crisis/
- the hills tag for the sudan conflict article is sudan-civil-war source PalauanReich🗣️ 00:39, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Support if the news isn't explicitly calling it a civil war, they are saying it is turning into one. Clearly enough sources for the move. We can also move it back anyway is they stop calling it that or if it comes to an end PalauanReich🗣️ 00:41, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Should I do something about the last RM? We got two in this article and it is getting messy. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 01:23, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- I think we should close this one as opened while another was going on? - L'Mainerque - (Disturb my slumber) - 01:30, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- This should still be open incase it actually turns into a civil war. Oddballslover (talk) 02:23, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- For now, let us have both RMs open, and have all of us discuss this in a separate section. - L'Mainerque - (Woo, /talk/!) - 02:25, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- This should still be open incase it actually turns into a civil war. Oddballslover (talk) 02:23, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- I think we should close this one as opened while another was going on? - L'Mainerque - (Disturb my slumber) - 01:30, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Strong oppose as premature. The majority of sources still do not call it a civil war yet, including some of the sources linked here ("fears of a prolonged and unpredictable civil war", "If not halted, the conflict could become a devastating civil war", "Sudan is sliding towards civil war", "Sudan slides towards civil war", etc). 〜 Festucalex • talk 04:03, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Those sources are calling it a "civil war" also those are not the only sources. Oddballslover (talk) 02:54, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment, I think this should be kept open as some sources call it a civil war while others don't call it that yet, if the fighting continues more sources may start calling the conflict a civil war - MysticForce07 04:21, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- once it becomes a Civil war, go ahead and write a seperate article about it, as these two things are different and will have different events and definitions (the article is already too long). You can include information from the current article as your background. The same will be true if this war resulted in a famine, geneocide, another Sudanese revolution, etc ... FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:55, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Strongly Oppose for the same reason as the person above me has said: it is incredibly premature at this stage. --Plumbobar (talk) 11:32, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose: I really do not get this obsession of Cherry picking sources to solicit one narrow view. let's start with Support sources:
- Washington post is citing Crisis Group so putting them as seperate sources is a little dishonest as the aricle does not mention Civil War until it quote the Crisis Group.
- Crisis group:
Even if the army eventually does secure the capital, and Hemedti retreats to Darfur, a civil war could well follow
- The Economist:
Sudan is sliding towards civil war
it is not yet! and it is only mentioned in the title - Foreign Policy
Sudanese analysts warn that the country is now heading toward an all-out civil war.
, again toward! - Fox news: Bidden did not call it a civil war!
- CBS does not mention the word, not sure why the support used this as evidence!
- Al Jazeera: in the section of Civil war', says
If the conflict drags on, more people in the extremely fragmented Sudanese society might take up arms, says analyst Alex de Waal.
, this is a speculation although it is true if it happens that this will be a Civil war, not a armed conflict as defined by International committee of the red cross, Amnesty international and Geneva Academy or even in Wikipedia
- Al Jazeera itself has its take on this which can be found in How close is Sudan to civil war? ... I am happy to change my mind but I do not see the sources consensus here, let's give it a week maybe ... FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:39, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Strongly Oppose 1. Fox news has a known bias and as such may be an unreliable source. 2. We have had the discussion before and the outcome ends up with it being to not move the page. FusionSub (talk) 14:08, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- @FudionSub there is a lot of other sources calling it a civil war like Washington post, Foreign policy, New York Post, Aljazeera, CBS news, Independent, Economist, Crisis Group, and more. Oddballslover (talk) 14:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- CBS link does not even mention the word Civil war! FuzzyMagma (talk) 00:43, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- I did not know that @PalauanReich🗣️ found the links. Oddballslover (talk) 01:00, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- @FuzzyMagma That was because it was had the civil war tag PalauanReich🗣️ 01:11, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- CBS link does not even mention the word Civil war! FuzzyMagma (talk) 00:43, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- @FudionSub there is a lot of other sources calling it a civil war like Washington post, Foreign policy, New York Post, Aljazeera, CBS news, Independent, Economist, Crisis Group, and more. Oddballslover (talk) 14:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. For sequential events, it is always better to date the title. Only years later can one be sure that the COMMONNAME is undated. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:21, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- @SmokeyJoe there is tons of sources up above it, so calling it a "civil war" is probably a common name for the conflict. Oddballslover (talk) 02:52, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Probably WP:UCRN compliant? My focus is on whether the year is in the title, and I think it should be. I agree on “civil”. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:25, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- There were two other civil wars in Sudan so it should be the Third Sudanese Civil War if this change would happen or not.  Oddballslover (talk) 03:32, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- In title case? No. I don’t see any reliable sources calling it that. This history of the redirect shows it point to something different. You are trying to get ahead of sources. For current title serves better. SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:16, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- There were two other civil wars in Sudan so it should be the Third Sudanese Civil War if this change would happen or not.  Oddballslover (talk) 03:32, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Probably WP:UCRN compliant? My focus is on whether the year is in the title, and I think it should be. I agree on “civil”. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:25, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- @SmokeyJoe there is tons of sources up above it, so calling it a "civil war" is probably a common name for the conflict. Oddballslover (talk) 02:52, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose The best quality sources linked by Oddballslover say that Sudan is "sliding towards a civil war," not that this armed conflict is the third Sudanese civil war. The current title is preferable. Vanilla Wizard 💙 04:17, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Adding on to that: I'm not so sure that it's even appropriate to have the title "Third Sudanese Civil War" redirect here. There's just no sources saying this is the third Sudanese civil war, and as I've already mentioned (and as was explained in more detail by FuzzyMagma), no sources say that this is an ongoing civil war; the one exception to this is Fox, which per WP:RS/P shouldn't be cited for these sorts of topics. But on top of that, the disambiguation page explains that this wouldn't even be the third conflict which could potentially be described as a Sudanese Civil War:
The term Sudanese Civil War refers to at least three separate conflicts: First Sudanese Civil War (1955–1972), Second Sudanese Civil War (1983–2005), South Sudanese Civil War (2013–2020). It could also refer to other internal conflicts in Sudan and South Sudan: Lord's Resistance Army insurgency (1987–present), Ethnic violence in South Sudan, Sudanese nomadic conflicts, War in Darfur (2003–2020), Sudanese conflict in South Kordofan and Blue Nile (2011–2020), 2023 Sudan conflict. As well as conflicts between Sudan and South Sudan after the breakup: Heglig Crisis (2012)
- The War in Darfur was sometimes described as a civil war, more than this present-day conflict has been described as such (at least as of right now). But the War in Darfur article didn't get renamed to the Third Sudanese Civil War, and there's (currently) weaker reasons to name this one as such. What makes this one the third Sudanese civil war and not all the others on that list? As of right now, it's unsourced WP:OR. Personally, I think Third Sudanese Civil War should be a redirect to the Sudanese Civil War disambiguation page.
- Good faith, but it's just too soon to use that name. Vanilla Wizard 💙 04:32, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- If it becomes a civil war this year it makes sense to call it the Third Sudanese Civil War. Oddballslover (talk) 13:47, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- If and when, but not before. If I wasn't involved I'd WP:SNOW close this. Vanilla Wizard 💙 01:27, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- If it becomes a civil war this year it makes sense to call it the Third Sudanese Civil War. Oddballslover (talk) 13:47, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Wait- while it's definitely gearing up to be a lengthly civil war, so far we are only a week in, premeture at least for now, maybe we can come back in 2 weeks and say it's a civil war but for now, no.
- Garmin21 (talk) 12:29, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose for now. I think it's too soon to establish this title, this being a "conflict" is something everyone here can agree on. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 12:50, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose for now as well. The sources cited above clearly state that it is not yet a civil war, but will likely become one. If and when that happens, then a move would be appropriate. Patr2016 (talk) 21:19, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Some media use sliding towards a civil war, but The Guardian 25 Apr uses "fighting" and "clashes"; BBC 24 Apr uses "fighting" and "clashes"; CBS 25 Apr uses "generals at war with each other", "crisis", "clashes", "fighting". Comment: presumably the reason why media are (mostly) not calling this a "civil war" is that this isn't a society-wide fight: it's just two (big) armed groups where most of the civil society groups are opposed to both the SAF and the RSF - it's more like a mafia battle (with heavy casualties) than a society-wide civil war. Boud (talk) 22:15, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Wait- Although I think calling it the third Sudanese civil war would be better, I think it would be safer to wait a bit as it might end very fast later on. If it lasts for more than 3 months, i think calling it the third Sudanese civil war will be suitable. If it ends within 3 months of the start, stay with the original name.
- Thehistorianisaac (talk) 23:59, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Strongly Support: This is a civil war. balladsone 00:10, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose - It doesn't seem to be a civil war yet. We should wait some time before we come to conclusions, and to stick with the more general term "conflict" makes sense in my opinion. ابن.لبنان (talk) 03:33, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose for now, but wait for the future as per the reasons listed above. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 05:47, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose: Even those sources that say that this is, or is becoming a civil war do not call it "Third Sudanese Civil War" nor even "Sudanese Civil War". The proposed name completely fails COMMONNAME - which AFAI can see the event lacks as yet. Better a 'generic descriptor', as at present - which I found today relatively quickly - than a 'concocted' name, which the proposed one is as yet. Pincrete (talk) 06:39, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
Civil war?
Should we change the Article to "2023 Sudanese civil war"? Since the rebels took some parts of the country, there are tanks in the streets, air force is active and etc Lucasmota0975 (talk) 15:40, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
- I have not heard any sources calling it that. 25stargeneral (talk) 15:55, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
- https://www.aljazeera.com/program/inside-story/2023/4/14/could-standoff-in-sudan-turn-into-a-civil-war Lucasmota0975 (talk) 16:20, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
- That source asks "could it turn into a civil war"? That's not the same as saying it is a civil war. 25stargeneral (talk) 16:22, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, tbh lets wait more, if the clashes intensify, we consider it as a civil war Lucasmota0975 (talk) 16:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
- There's clashes across the country and I think it's intense enough to be considered a Civil War. It's more about how long something has to last before it becomes a war instead of clashes. The Austrian Civil War only lasted 5 days and it's called such on Wikipedia. SuperDuperBoy (talk) 03:01, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- It's up to secondary sources on interpreting the conflict as a civil war or not. We simply report what the secondary source says- we are a tertiary source. Bremps! 05:11, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- Per WP:NOR. Cheers, Bremps! 05:13, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- Are primary sources not taken into account? Jimmy Jimbo Johnson the V (talk) 05:35, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- I'm under the impression that we prefer secondary sources. For instance, if someone posted firsthand photos of a massacre in Sudan on Facebook, we would rather cite a BBCreport that covers it rather than the Facebook photos themselves. Take my word with a grain of salt, though. Bremps! 16:13, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Secondary sources are preferred on Wikipedia and usually primary sources aren't to be used other than for specific purposes and with secondary sources as well. I believe it is because primary sources often have more bias and muddied detail while secondary sources usually have things more worked out. Not sure if that's the real reason why or not, just what I thought of.
- Anyways as others have said it is not Wikipedia's place to name events, until a common name comes into use we should keep it with the current title which is just a short description of what it is, not even a name. GramCanMineAway (talk) 04:28, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- It's up to secondary sources on interpreting the conflict as a civil war or not. We simply report what the secondary source says- we are a tertiary source. Bremps! 05:11, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- There's clashes across the country and I think it's intense enough to be considered a Civil War. It's more about how long something has to last before it becomes a war instead of clashes. The Austrian Civil War only lasted 5 days and it's called such on Wikipedia. SuperDuperBoy (talk) 03:01, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, tbh lets wait more, if the clashes intensify, we consider it as a civil war Lucasmota0975 (talk) 16:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
- That source asks "could it turn into a civil war"? That's not the same as saying it is a civil war. 25stargeneral (talk) 16:22, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
- https://www.aljazeera.com/program/inside-story/2023/4/14/could-standoff-in-sudan-turn-into-a-civil-war Lucasmota0975 (talk) 16:20, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
- Too soon to tell, I recommend waiting a short while (around a few months or so) to see if the majority of secondary sources refer to it as such. As the main person updating the Simple English page for the 2023 Sudan clashes this is very important. FusionSub (talk) 10:07, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
You have to make a quick change, this is not just skirmishes, it is at the national level. the title should be civil war or rebellion in sudan 2023. Matias Taboadaxx (talk) 11:02, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- Uprising might be a better description. It's too soon to say if this will become a civil war. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:21, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- We can't call it a Civil War until it is recognized as a Civil War. There are numerous examples of week long civil wars and decades long "unrest periods" in history that were not called civil wars. I agree on your stance that at this point it should be considered a Civil War, we cannot say so until it is recognized by secondary sources. Channel719 (talk) 15:28, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
- I think that yes, we need to wait until secondary sources call it that. I personally think it is one already, but it will heavily depend on how long this will last for, and who will become the victor in this struggle. It may end tomorrow, it may end in a year, too early to tell. For now, I guess conflict is a neutral-enough term. --Dynamo128 (talk) 13:56, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
Change the title to "Third Sudanese Civil war"
Sources are starting to call it a civil war: https://www.newsdrum.in/international/sudans-civil-war-enters-its-fourth-day-with-no-sight-of-any-relief
Also i think the clashes got intense enough to consider it as a civil war Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 14:27, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Lucasoliveira653 does CNN, BBC, AlJazeera and the majority of the new outlets called it that? I think if we have that consensus then it is easier to move the page to 2023 Sudan or Sudanese civil war FuzzyMagma (talk) 14:44, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- Still no, but if the fighting intensify, they gonna probabaly call it civil war Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 15:01, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
- I think the title "Third Sudanese Civil War" will be eventually used in historical literature regarding this conflict, but until that happens or the media starts naming it as such, the current name is the only name that can be used- see WP:NEO. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 23:11, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
If there is a civil war...
Considering that Sudan has been involved in civil war twice, in case of Civil war, should we write it 2023 Sudan Civil War or the Third Sudanese Civil War or something else? Parham wiki (talk) 22:46, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Has been discussed already with a consensus to not add the phrase "civil war" in the title of the article until RSes begin describing it as such. It's been ongoing for only a week, so it'll be some time prior to such a move. Once RSes describe it as such, however, I would be more in support of "2023 Sudanese Civil War" or "Sudanese Civil War (2023–present)", or something similar Presidentofyes12 (talk) 22:59, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- This hasn’t been described as a civil war yet, but I think it’d be best to call it the Third Sudanese Civil War if it becomes something that’s called a civil war. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 00:23, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed, balladsone 02:30, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Per @Blaylockjam10, Agreed. NYMan6 (talk) 13:31, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Unilateral move
I want to bring a discussion because I will probability move this soon . Oddballslover talk 03:19, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- Note that the c&p moves made by Oddballslover have been reverted by L'Mainerque and me. – robertsky (talk) 04:05, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- To add on to @Robertsky, the "moves" you (@Oddballslover) did were not only improper and disruptive, they were also done without consensus. - L'Mainerque - (Woo, /talk/!) - 04:12, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- I hope I'm not dog-piling by adding to the chorus of editors trying to explain why this was a bad move, but Oddballslover, moving a page unilaterally in spite of an ongoing requested move discussion (especially one with a strong consensus against the move) is not appropriate. Please do not do this in the future. The purpose of the discussion is to gauge the consensus, and the consensus will determine the title. The page should not be moved while the discussion has not formally closed, and it should not be done unless its closure is with a consensus in favor of the move. And had the discussion closed with a consensus in favor of the move, moving it by copying and pasting its contents into a new page while blanking the old one is not a good way to do it because this does not preserve the revision history. This created quite a headache for the editors trying to undo it. Vanilla Wizard 💙 04:59, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Oddballslover: I woke up to this mess, Jesus Christ don't do that again. 〜 Festucalex • talk 06:50, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
Two RMs open.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Me and @Wikiexplorationandhelping are having a disagreement with @Oddballslover over which RM to keep open. For now, I'm keeping both open until we have input by the community over what we should all do. Input is of course appreciated down below. Thanks, - L'Mainerque - (Woo, /talk/!) - 02:30, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Normally, the earliest RM is the only open RM until it is closed. Here we'll need to decide if the
2023 Sudan conflict → 2023 Sudanese conflict
RM should be closed. — Nythar (💬-🍀) 02:47, 24 April 2023 (UTC) - I feel like a TNT might be necessary here. Getting a bit too messy. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 02:48, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Wikiexplorationandhelping, please clarify? - L'Mainerque - (Woo, /talk/!) - 03:07, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- I was thinking to clear everything and start an RM, anew. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 03:35, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- no, TNT is not required just because you did not get the result you wanted. Just wait for somone to close it as it is clear that the article won't be moved. FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:44, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- I never wanted any result. It is just messy and I am trying to clean it up. I just thought of that as an idea. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 14:13, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Wikiexplorationandhelping, please clarify? - L'Mainerque - (Woo, /talk/!) - 03:07, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- If the conflict ends soon we should close the 2023 Sudan conflict → Third Sudanese Civil War RM but if the conflict get worse we should close the 2023 Sudan conflict → 2023 Sudanese conflict RM. Oddballslover (talk) 03:10, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- "ends soon" or "get worse" is not a criteria to define a conflict as a "Civil war" FuzzyMagma (talk) 13:48, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Criteria you labelled to keep the civil war RM is not how it works, we have had much worse civil conflicts and they aren't labelled as a civil war, while the Austrian Civil War definitely was less severe yet we do call it a civil war. It depends on what the majority of sources call it. FusionSub (talk) 14:00, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
@FusionSub look at Talk:2023 Sudan conflict#Requested move 24 April 2023 there is a lot of links. Oddballslobver (talk) 14:13, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Oddballslover Do you mean under FuzzyMagma's comment or your original opener FusionSub (talk) 16:37, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Change the title to 3rd Sudanese Civil War
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It's a civil war now sadly 95.148.25.109 (talk) 16:02, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- There already is a move request above, just in case you're interested. — Nythar (💬-🍀) 16:05, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Already had this discussion before FusionSub (talk) 16:35, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Wait CNN and BCC call it a civil war Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 22:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Lucasoliveira653 could you show sources? NYMan6 (talk) 22:46, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- @NYMan6 Look at Talk:2023 Sudan conflict#Requested move 24 April 2023. Oddballslover (talk) 00:33, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Oddballslover Most sources listed in that discussion are saying it could become a civil war. FusionSub (talk) 10:07, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- @NYMan6 Look at Talk:2023 Sudan conflict#Requested move 24 April 2023. Oddballslover (talk) 00:33, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Lucasoliveira653 Why CNN and BBC? Oddly specific news sources PalauanReich🗣️ 01:03, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Lucasoliveira653 could you show sources? NYMan6 (talk) 22:46, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Wait CNN and BCC call it a civil war Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 22:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Requested move 25 April 2023
I propose to change the article title from 2023 Sudan conflict to 2023 Sudan crisis. Just like the 1958 Lebanon crisis and the Congo Crisis DitorWiki (talk) 01:01, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
Not done: Slow down a bit, wait for the RM to finish before proposing a new title. – MaterialWorks (contribs) 01:24, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- @DitorWiki this are not political crisis, this is a large conflict a political crisis would be a short-term controversial event NYMan6 (talk) 01:34, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- the 1958 Lebanese crisis was almost like a civil war DitorWiki (talk) 13:16, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- There is already another RM open. And this is not a crisis. Oddballslover (talk) 02:12, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
Will there be any other battles added
As we can see Khartoum is not only area of battle and Sudan is a pretty large country and there are battles happening in other areas when will thouse battles have their own page 2600:6C50:1B00:3B6B:2542:282B:5FEB:7683 (talk) 05:41, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- I take it by 'page' you mean 'article'. In order for other battles to qualify for an article. We need quite a bit of info about the battle, of which we currently don't have from reliable sources. FusionSub (talk) 10:01, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Only 'Battle of Khartoum' fits the category of battle as of right now NYMan6 (talk) 10:44, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- We should Create "Battle of Geneina(2023), since clashes began again Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 19:57, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Lucasoliveira653 We'd need several sources at least 20 and enough coverage at the beginning of the article for it to happen NYMan6 (talk) 21:52, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Several paragraphs describing looting and fighting in Geneina
- Just mentions that fighting happened
- Describes the fighting between the two sides, includes quotes from a local
- Only mentions that eyewitnesses reported violence
- So, we have several levels of source quality, but the events have definitely been covered. Also I don't think that 20 sources are needed for an article to be created? That seems a little excessive, and definitely not policy. Chaotic Enby (talk) 02:07, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Lucasoliveira653 We'd need several sources at least 20 and enough coverage at the beginning of the article for it to happen NYMan6 (talk) 21:52, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- We should Create "Battle of Geneina(2023), since clashes began again Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 19:57, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
Denials, again
I was going to put the denials in again as there was no reason given for their removal (at least that I could see...) but I saw that denials shouldn't be placed there. Could I ask why that is? Genabab (talk) 19:39, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
Egypt as a belligerent
Egypt is currently listed as a belligerent, with a note pointing to the section 2023 Sudan conflict#Egypt. That section, however, does not support naming Egypt as a party here: the presence of a few (destroyed) fighter jets and some personnel has been explained with exercises predating the conflict. RSf themselves, according to our text, accepted that explanation and repatriated the Egyptian prisoners. The WSJ is invoked as a source here, but the reference is missing. The article can probably be found, but at this point it is also outdated. The most forceful source for the section is some ex-CIA's Twitter account. That's not enough, bluecheck or not.
This may be an instance where Wikipedia making a claim could have outsized effects, considering everybody else is (rightly) equivocating on the question. Let's not make it a self-fulfilling prophecy, please. I'm removing Egypt as a belligerent and will try to defuse the section on the topic. K. Oblique 07:29, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Karl Oblique: The two citations placed next to Egypt note state that Egyptian aircraft have been involved in airstrikes against RSF and that Egyptian personnel have been providing intelligence and tactical support to SAF. The second citation reaffirms from RSF that an unnamed country has been launching airstrikes against them. Destroyed aircraft and POW's you have cited above are wholly unrelated to Egyptian involvement. Reinstated. Ecrusized (talk) 07:57, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- "Unnamed country" is, almost tautologically, rather weak support for any one country.
- As above, some ex-CIA making bold statements on Twitter is not a reliable source.
- The conflict parties seem to agree, possibly even against better knowledge, that Egypt isn't involved. Otherwise, why should RSF return Egyptian POWs within days if they consider them enemies?
- K. Oblique 08:02, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
"Supported by" section in the infobox
Someone removed (twice) the "supported by" section (including references to the Libyan National Army and the Wagner Group) on the ground that no consensus had been reached on these and that they were officially denied. It appears to be common practice to include supporters even despite denials (cf. South Sudanese Civil War, Mali War), is there any compelling reason not to do it here? Chaotic Enby (talk) 07:58, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- Wikipedia In the news articles
- Articles with conflicting quality ratings
- C-Class Africa articles
- Low-importance Africa articles
- C-Class Sudan articles
- Mid-importance Sudan articles
- WikiProject Sudan articles
- WikiProject Africa articles
- B-Class military history articles
- B-Class African military history articles
- African military history task force articles
- B-Class Post-Cold War articles
- Post-Cold War task force articles
- Requested moves