Talk:Prostitution in Iran: Difference between revisions

Nikah mut'ah

Darwinsbulldog: Most people, when talking about nikah mut'ah, do not mention prostitution. Check for instance the difference between this:[1] and this:[2] And only one of those books that do mention both does in fact page mention them in the same context. As you can see here in that one book: [3], it is not exclusively Sunnis who treat nikah mut'ah as prostitution but it is still not something assumed. This is a common enough belief to be mentioned in the article but it is certainly not something which should be taken for granted.

You can't source to the definition. All you can use the dictionary as a source for is for what the definition is. Applying that definition is a different matter.

You are wording things, making definitions, in such a way that makes easier to make the claim you are trying to. Would you mind saying which dictionary you are using at least? Here on wikipedia the definition of nikah mut'ah is "a fixed-term marriage contract"..."that allows couples to have religiously sanctioned sex for a limited period of time, without any commitments, and without the obligatory involvement of religious figures" and prostitution as "the act or practice of engaging in sex acts for hire". Just going by those defintions is not enough to give such an interpretation. Munci (talk) 16:04, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Munci is right. Sigheh (Nikah mut'ah) is not prostitution. It's marriage, but temporary. Not that "In Sigheh, Woman can even ban her husband having sex with her". (not in Nikah, which is everlasting until talaq) Only some of Sunni muslims consider Sigheh as prostitution. In Iranian Popular culture, To Sigheh somone just for having sex is also considered as Kolah Shar'ee. (Kolah Shar'ee means trying to cheating on Islamic laws) Amirreza ^talk 21:43, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Dear Munci and to whom others it may concern;

Please do not take this personally but from my own experience; it has only been Shia Muslims who did not consider Nikah Mutah aka Sigheh to not be a type of Prostitution. Every other person, regardless of their beliefs, classify Sigheh to be a type of "Prostitution". By using logic; we categorize words according to the meaning of the word. For example; we would say an “American Bulldog” is a “Carnivora”. To understand why the American Bulldog is a type of Carnivora we have to understand what relation the “American Bulldog” has to “Carnivora”. Not every “Carnivorag” is an “American Bulldog” but every “American Bulldog” is a “Carnivora”. Why? The definition of a Carnivora is a meat-eating animal. And since the “American Bulldog” eats meat it is put into that classification of “Carnivora”. It is by applying the object to its own definition to that of the class can we organize our logic. If we do not organize the words according by their definition then classes can never be made. We must first find what the definition of the word is and if it fits a class then we must apply it to that class or else we are not applying any order not only to logic itself but to words also. “Prostitution” means the act or practice of engaging in sexual intercourse for money. If any word(s) fits this category then automatically it will be assigned to the class of “Prostitution”. Nikah Mutah aka Sigheh is temporary marriage for sex and in exchange the woman, very rarely the man, is compensated money for her/his sex service. According to Shia Muslim scholars; the temp marriage does not need consent of anyone unless the female is a virgin, male virgins are not spoken about, where then the male needs her father’s permission. Majority of the time the divorce time is set to expire after intercourse is over. Before the male can ejaculate into the female he must first give her the due fee, money, for providing her sex service to the male companion. Very rarely is it the female who requests Sigheh and if she does then she must pay the fee for the male sex service. As it is clearly stated; Nikah Mutah aka Sigheh is the act or practice of engaging in sexual intercourse for money therefore it belongs to the class of Prostitution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darwinsbulldogs (talk • contribs) 22:01, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Ni Original Research! I think your information on this is very limited. You said " Nikah Mutah aka Sigheh is temporary marriage for sex and in exchange the woman, very rarely the man, is compensated money for her/his sex service." I strongly suggest you to read this:

Sigheh can be without having sex and woman can ban the man having sex with her. (for example, see Ruhollah Khomeini's fatwa [4]) Many Shia Scholars and marjas, Declared that to Sigheh a Prostitute is Haram. (like Fazel Lankarani [5] and Makarem Shirazi, [6] for example. I just found their fatwa online) There is nothing recieved by woman in Sigheh but Mehrieh, which can be something different from money and is not for sex service. anyone does what you said under the name of Sigheh, is making a Kolah Shar'ee. (read my past answer) Amirreza ^talk 14:01, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I do not have any personal views on this matter; rather it is factual evidence I only put forth with logic. Sigheh is a Persian word standing in for the Arabic form Nikah and Mutah. Arabs never used both Nikah and Mutah together; it was only the Persians, Shias, that created this combination "Nikah Mutah". When the last Persian Empire, Sassanid Empire, was defeated by Caliph Omar; the Persians were naturally angry so rejected his rule. Omar saw the Persians practicing the forbidden Mutah Muhammad outlawed and reinstated it illegal for the Persians to use. The Persians covertly made the Muslims think they were also Muslims by practicing Taqiyya and Tabarra, deception and hate, and made a religion Shiaism which counters Islam's original practices and rejecting it's leaders aka Caliphs. Omar is considered by Shias to be worse than Shaitan (Devil), while Sunnis conversely view him as the opposite (the wall blocking Shaitan). According to ELAINE SCIOLINO from the New York Times [7] Sigheh is a form of Prostitution. According to your own Ayatollah Khamenei [[8]]; Mutah doesn't need the permission of the virgin girl's guardian for her to have sex with grown old men. Money doesn't necessarily mean "cash", it can be anything of value so it fits with the term "Mahr". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darwinsbulldogs (talk • contribs) 22:03, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I said anything about your personal views on this matter? I just said your information is limited. Firstly, Sigheh IS NOT A PERSIAN WORD, It's Arabic, but it has a different meaning and usage in Persian. Second: "Omar is considered by Shias to be worse than Shaitan".?! Who said this? Third: I read the New York Times' article and I didn't see anything suggesting that Sigheh is a form of Prostitution. Please show me the sentence. forth: Sign your posts with ~~~~! Amirreza ^talk 17:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I forgot to ask: What do you mean "your own Ayatollah Khamenei"?! Amirreza ^talk 17:48, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I am removing the link via wikipedia's YouTube guidelines WP:YOUTUBE Dwanyewest (talk) 22:05, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Understood Dwanyewest. Amirreza; Your reference links to those Shia scholars are only in Persian language. Can you give a ref site that has English so I can understand what they are saying? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darwinsbulldogs (talk • contribs) 22:45, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

If u wanna verify the links in Persian, you can ask somone who knows Persian or use Google Translator. Amirreza ^talk 17:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Sources

Many reliable sources compare temporary marriage to prostitution. Binksternet (talk) 01:01, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

• Burke, Andrew; Elliot, Mark (2008). Iran. Lonely Planet. p. 59. ISBN 1741042933. Sigheh (the Islamic practice of temporary marriage) is seen by many as a sort of legalised prostitution.
• Moaveni, Azadeh (2006). Lipstick Jihad: A Memoir of Growing Up Iranian in America and American in Iran. PublicAffairs. p. 71. ISBN 1586483781. In Shiite Islam, when a man wants to sleep with a woman without marrying her, he can opt for sigheh, a temporary marriage. Though sordid and unromantic, temporary marriage is convenient: the duration can be as short as fifteen minutes, and the vows can be exchanged in about fifteen seconds. The institution serves clerics, seeking a theological loophole through which to philander, and prostitutes, who need such a pretext to operate in an Islamic society. ... It is a form of prostitution, which enables a patriarchal culture to cement the imbalanced gender relations in the guise of empowering women with a temporary and flimsy legal status that rarely works to their benefit.
• Slavin, Barbara (2009). Bitter Friends, Bosom Enemies: Iran, the U.S., and the Twisted Path to Confrontation. Macmillan. p. 142. ISBN 0312384912. Such a large population of students, primarily male, has made Qom a city known for more than spiritual contemplation. The courtyard of the gold-domed Fatemeh shrine is a well-known place for arranging sigheh, or temporary marriage, a practice condoned in Shiite Islam that sometimes resembles legalized prostitution.
• Saben, Roxana (2010). "Glossary". Between Two Worlds: My Life and Captivity in Iran. HarperCollins. p. 314. ISBN 0061965286. sigheh. Temporary marriage; a Shiite practice that allows couples to marry for a period of their choice, from a few minutes to ninety-nine years, by reciting a verse from the Koran. Sigheh is frowned upon by many Iranians who see it as a front for prostitution or as a way for men and women to legitimize extramarital relationships, but it has also become a practical method of dealing with the Islamic regime's crackdown on couples who are dating.
• Maslin, Jamie (2009). Iranian Rappers and Persian Porn: A Hitchhiker's Adventures in the New Iran. Skyhorse Publishing. pp. 55–56. ISBN 1602397910. ...many Iranians see it simply as legalized and sanctioned prostitution.
• Abu-Raddad, Laith J.; Akala, Francisca Ayodeji; Semini, Iris (2010). Characterizing the HIV/AIDS Epidemic in the Middle East and North Africa. Gabriele Riedner, David Wilson. World Bank. pp. 71–72. ISBN 0821381377. Twenty-four percent of male gonorrhea patients reported acquiring the infection from temporary wives.
• "Trafficking in Persons Report 2010". Washington, D.C.: U.S. Department of State. June 2010. Retrieved January 4, 2011. The law permits temporary marriage for a fixed term (sigheh), after which the marriage is terminated. Some persons abuse this legal process to coerce women into prostitution; there are reports of Iranian women subjected to forced prostitution through fixed-term marriages to men from Pakistan and Gulf states. Law enforcement data is unknown; there were reports of some prosecutions for traffickers who forced Iranian girls into prostitution in the Gulf. Investigations, prosecutions, and convictions of trafficking offenders were not priorities in the country. It was extremely difficult for women forcibly held in commercial sexual exploitation to obtain justice; first, because the testimony of two women is equal to that of one man, and second, because women who are victims of sexual abuse are vulnerable to being executed for adultery, defined as sexual relations outside of marriage. Official complicity may be a problem; human traffickers were reported to have very close links to some authorities and security agencies.
• Bird, Christiane (2002). Neither East Nor West: One Woman's Journey Through the Islamic Republic of Iran. Simon and Schuster. pp. 168–170. ISBN 0671027565. Though for the most part a marginalized activity, sigheh has been a hotly debated subject in Iran since 1990, when then-President Hashemi Rafsanjani made a speech in which he urged war widows and young people who had not yet earned enough money for marriage to engage in sigheh. Most middle- and upper-class Iranians took vehement issue with the president's comments, equating temporary marriages with legalized prostitution and the degradation of women.
• Alavi, Nasrin (2005). We Are Iran. Soft Skull Press. p. 156. ISBN 1933368055. The growing problem of prostitution in Iran has been a subject of mounting concern. ... Under Iran's Islamic Shia system, it is possible to take out a temporary marriage license, known as a Sigheh, for even a few hours. A Sigheh is used to cover liaisons between men and women who want to have sex but who, for one reson or another, are not ready for full marriage.
• Brooks, Geraldine (2010). Nine Parts of Desire: The Hidden World of Islamic Women. Random House. p. 56. ISBN 0307434451. Sigheh, agreed between a man and a woman and sanctioned by a cleric, can last as little as a few minutes or as long as ninety-nine years. Usually the man pays the woman an agreed sum of money in exchange for a temporary marriage. The usual motive is sex...
• Andreeva, Elena (2007). Russia and Iran in the great game: travelogues and Orientalism. Routledge studies in Middle Eastern history. Vol. 8. Psychology Press. pp. 162–163. ISBN 0415771536. Most of the travelers describe the Shi'i institution of temporary marriage (sigheh) as 'legalized profligacy' and hardly distinguish between temporary marriage and prostitution.
• Fielder, Christine; King, Chris (2006). Sexual Paradox: Complementarity, Reproductive Conflict and Human Emergence. Lulu.com. p. 272. ISBN 141165532X. The enjoyment marriage is nothing but a legal cover for prostitution. How can anyone in the world claim that a marriage for 10 minutes is a legal act?
• Paidar, Parvin (1997). Women and the political process in twentieth-century Iran. Cambridge Middle East Studies. Vol. 1. Cambridge University Press. pp. 278–281. ISBN 052159572X. Prostitutes detained in rehabilitation centers were encouraged to become sigheh to revolutionary guards and many did so willingly or unwillingly. In prisons too, virgin women prisoneers were forced into sigheh with their jailors before being executed, since according to religious beliefs they would otherwise go to heaven. ... Sigheh contract may be presided over by a clergyman and be registered and documented as well. But none of these requirements were legally enforced. The contract was often set and sealed by the partners without the presence of witnesses and with no legal documentation.
• Sciolino, Elaine (2001). Persian Mirrors: The Elusive Face of Iran. Simon and Schuster. pp. 127–129. ISBN 0743217799. In his two-volume 1892 opus on Iran, Persia and the Persian Question, Lord Curzon described his shock at the widespread practice of sigheh among pilgrims in Mashad, where, he said, 'a gigantic system of prostitution, under the sanction of the Church, prevails.' ... Most Iranians I know regard the practice as little more than legalized prostitution, for sigheh is a public advertisement that a woman is not a virgin.
• Haeri, Shahla (1989). Law of desire: temporary marriage in Shi'i Iran. Contemporary issues in the Middle East. Syracuse University Press. p. 157. ISBN 0815624832. He challenged the views of a certain Russian writer (whose name he could not remember) who has alleged that mut'a is legalized prostitution. The Ayatollah Shari'atmadari maintained this to be an erroneous understanding, typical of what foreigners think of mut'a.
• Labi, Nadya (March–April 2010). "Married for a Minute". Mother Jones. Mother Jones and the Foundation for National Progress. Yet the Iranian mullahs' efforts to rehabilitate sigheh have met a stubborn core of resistance—particularly from feminists, who decry the practice as a kind of 'Islamic prostitution'.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: date format (link)

Many of these sources will return useful quotes after search terms such as "prostitution" are entered. Binksternet (talk) 01:01, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

There is significat difference between marriage and prostitution. There are several styles of marriage in some cultures which are not recognized in other culture(s). As examples, Polyandry marriage in some Asian/African communities, Polygyny, and etc. In addition, Shia are not the only citizens of Iran, and Shia are not only in Iran. Shia Muslims population is significant in countries such as Azerbaijan, Turkey, Pakistan, India, Bahrain, Iraq and Afghanistan. Also several other groups with different marriage rules live in Iran. For Jewish communities, it's free for one to marry his/her aunt/uncle or as far as I know, Christians in Iran (they are mostly Armenian and Georgian) don't have the right to marry their cousins.--Aliwiki (talk) 06:22, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

The keyword is "compare temporary marriage to prostitution". A lot of people make subjective comparisons about a lot things. Hard-line clerics in Iran would compare an American woman having sexual relationships outside marriage to a "prostitute" too. That doesn't mean that such comparisons belong here on Wikipedia. This page is about prostitution, period. That means the common and legal definition of prostitution. Kurdo777 (talk) 17:39, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

This page is about prostitution in Iran, and dozens of reliable sources have compared Shia's temporary marriage to prostitution in Iran. The comparison belongs. Binksternet (talk) 19:05, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

"have compared it to" is not good enough. Such arguments belongs on Sigheh which deals with that topic. Kurdo777 (talk) 20:01, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

The sources say more than that. They say "is seen by many as a sort of legalised prostitution", "it is a form of prostitution" , "many Iranians who see it as a front for prostitution", "many Iranians see it simply as legalized and sanctioned prostitution", and "nothing but a legal cover for prostitution". You cannot keep this kind of information out of the article. Binksternet (talk) 22:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

This is related to religion and it's a topic for more than 1.5 billion Muslims all around the word.--Aliwiki (talk) 00:01, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and it is considered "legalized and sanctioned prostitution" by many Iranians. Binksternet (talk) 00:41, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Why not give both sides. Something like: `sigheh has been called `a sort of legalised prostitution` [cite] and `a form of prostitution` [cite], while others have described it as a means of `curbing free sex and controlling prostitution`"` --BoogaLouie (talk) 01:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Because we don't give weight to SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS on serious topics dealing with FACTS. As I said before, many people around the world consider many sexual activities that are not legally defined as prostitution, to be "prostitution" in their POV, that doesn't mean we cover it here on prostitution pages. I can find a thousand sources about Catholic persists being pedophiles, does that mean that pedophilia is legal in Vatican.... "Sigheh" likewise being "prostitution" is an extreme POV, mostly advocated by religious folks, Sunni ones, for obvious reasons. Drop this folks, Wikipedia is not your personal weblog. Kurdo777 (talk) 02:04, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

BoogaLouie, I say you are absolutely right. The best guideline to follow in this instance is WP:NPOV where we are asked to represent "fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." To follow the guideline, we should include the reliable sources listed above, with attribution per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. We should make certain to "avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts", which means that we cannot say Iran's sigheh laws are not prostitution. Too many reliable sources say that the sigheh is prostitution, a legalized and sanctioned form of it.

Kurdo777, you might want to take a look at the article Roman Catholic Diocese of Oakland, where I wrote, as an Oakland resident, a significant section called "Child molestation scandals". Child molestation sources were very strong, as are the legalized prostitution sources for Iran. This article is going to reflect reliable sources, and you can join me in making it follow WP:NPOV, the way it should be. Binksternet (talk) 02:13, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Prostitution is not "legalized" in Iran, no serious source makes such a claim. Your reference to "Child molestation scandals" has absolutely nothing to do with the example I had given. You won't find a serious topic on Wikipedia saying pedophilia is legal in Vatican, because X and Y have compared catholic clergy to pedophiles. What you're suggesting here, is exactly the same. Kurdo777 (talk) 07:22, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

As we can see above, a topic like child molestation is reported in Roman Catholic Diocese of Oakland, not in Prostitution in Vatican. Temporary marriage is a controversial Islamic topic in which more than 1.5 billion Muslims are involved, and currently we have several articles about it in Wikipedia.--Aliwiki (talk) 02:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Right, including this one, per reliable sources which say temporary marriage is "a front for prostitution", according to "many Iranians". Binksternet (talk) 03:06, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

There are two simple statements: 1)All Iranians are not Shia; 2) All Shias are not Iranian.--Aliwiki (talk) 03:35, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

This article is about Iran, about prostitution in Iran. All Iranians are involved in the article, and "many" Iranians think sigheh is legalized prostitution. I could not care less which types of Iranians think this is true; if "many" do, then it is the duty of the encyclopedia to tell the reader about it. Binksternet (talk) 03:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Many Iranian Muslims, as a part of over 1.5 billion Muslims community, have many ideas about many Islamic topics. Many non-Muslim Iranians also have many ideas about many of their religious topics as-well. It's 6:00 here and I need to sleep.--Aliwiki (talk) 04:57, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Comparing Sigheh to prostitution is a POV construct which attempts to politicize a religious issue. It has no place on a serious topic dealing with prostitution, and its common and legal definitions. Kurdo777 (talk) 07:15, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

It is a construct voiced by dozens of reliable sources. Christiane Bird says "Most middle- and upper-class Iranians" equate "temporary marriages with legalized prostitution and the degradation of women". You have expressed your opinion on the subject, but you have not proven Bird's assessment wrong. Binksternet (talk) 14:11, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

The keyword is "opinion". Opinions are a dime a dozen. This is a topic about the LEGAL definition of Prostitution in Iran. If you could manage to include a line about the opinion that the Catholic clergy "sanctions and promotes the exploitation of children", therefore some regards it as legal in Italy and Vatican, in the lead of Prostitution in Italy, then you'd have a case here. Kurdo777 (talk) 19:33, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

There is no limitation here for this article to be solely about the legal definition of prostitution in Iran. None whatsoever. The article is not named Legal definition of prostitution in Iran, it is simply Prostitution in Iran, and sigheh has been said by many Iranians to be legalized prostitution. You can help this information go into the article in a neater and more encyclopedic fashion than the earlier attempts by User:Darwinsbulldogs, or you can step back and let me do it. What you cannot do is stop such strong sources from going in the article. Binksternet (talk) 19:47, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Repeating yourself does not make you right. You were already told that such opinions (read Neologism) do not belong here, on a serious article dealing with the encyclopedic, common, legal definition of prostitution. You have no WP:consensus for inclusion. May I also remind you that you stalked me into this article, on which you had no prior interest or history. You can't use "I saw it on your talk page" excuse either, as there was no comment about this article on my talk page. Kurdo777 (talk) 20:02, 5 January 2011 (UTC)