Talk:Robin Cook: Difference between revisions

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I've removed the section about Robin Cook, the novelist, because I suspect copyright infringement: it's almost identical to the biography at http://www.ncteamericancollection.org/litmap/cook_robin_ma.htm .

To the poster: If there was permission to use this material under terms of our license or if you are the copyright holder of the externally linked text, then please indicate so.

The posting of copyrighted material that does not have the express permission from the copyright holder is possibly illegal and is a violation of our policy. If this is in fact an infringement of copyright, we still welcome any original contributions by you.

--Paul A 02:27 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)

As I put in the other talk page, you can't copyright facts, lists of facts, etc. You can only copyright artistic creations. Therefore, despite claims of copyright, there is nothing enforceable. The article has been rephrased and changed around anyway, and wil probably be even more later, as if it matters. But I'm pissed, so you married it. I won't contribute anything more to that article. --

Please don't contribute anything more to the Wikipedia, if it's of the same quality. -- Zoe

Death

Mr. Afmin, you asked in the article for a cource concerning the unknown stranger. Again and again I provide the sources. Always. Just take into account that the official narrative is full of holes and that with your actions to retell the governments story you block the truth. Reliable sources and logic back my viewpoints. But you are eager to wipe them out. Why?84.159.109.97 14:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Again a good reaction. As soon as I provided the link to the Times which stated that a unknown person was at the place where Cok died the information plus the source were wiped out. This is complete, obvious and fascist censorship.84.159.125.84 09:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC) ---

Mr. Admin likes to reedit the article every time to the "official version". Which includes false claims, suppression of most important information and blunt ignorance.

- "was pronounced dead on arrival" is defibitevly wrong (and you have no source. I have )

- "he suffered a severe heart attack" is a claim uttered by ONE witness.

- "he then fell down" ONE witness again. In full ignorance of the stranger who handed his cell phone, in full ignorance of the paramedics who did NOT claim "heart attack" as first impression.

- take the BBC as a source and compare the expression "rather than from injuries sustained in his fall". This one is not BBC. It is from the Guardian. [1]

Conclusion: both sources just quote the official version published by the Crown office in Edinborough. This was 4 (four) days after his death. Mr. Admin does not even ASK why a post mortem of a simple heart attack takes FOUR DAYS and if it is adequate or normal. It is defibitively not.84.159.117.254 07:16, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be a number of attempts from different sources to editorialise this and although different editors are reverting the vandals the Wikipedia:Requests for page protection earlier and latest activity have made me concurr that locking the page is the best option for the moment. --Vamp:Willow 22:20, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

You are just trying to cencor the content,Thats all is cover up. User:69.199.57.145

Excusez-moi? I'm sorry, but I just added a couple more sentences describing circumstances of his death, as it seems strange to me that no major news outlets seem to be saying anything more than that 'he collapsed'. Surely this is appropriate until more concrete details of the cause of his death have been found out?

---

13:41, 11 December 2005 (UTC) After two weeand another try to post information still no answer here to this : Hello Mr. Admin: it is definitely censorship if you do not allow to introduce the information that he had serious injuries and a broken neck. Secondly: you have a certain understanding WHY he had these injuries. This understanding is the same as the the “official” one, and it is definitely a current and possible one. BUT: as everybody is able to understand there is only ONE person who is the source: Cooks wife. So, to end it up why do you just not introduce a section “Alternative viewpoints” and pack in all the information about the unknown stranger, about the nodiscussion of the broken neck in the public, about the one and only witness. And then - to feel happy – tell the public that you for sure distance from that viewpoint.

Or if you do not know if there are sources: why do not just ask for sources ? Take the very first informations of the “Guardian”, the “Mirror” and the “Sun”. And the logic.

---

my edit was first censored because (allegedly) missing quotes and sources. Now I added them, and it is censored again.

WHY ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.159.107.123 (talk • contribs) 15:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Presumably because it was written attrociously, and the choice of tone was even worse. How do you justify the use of the word "miraculously" for instance. Nowhere does the cited article assert that anything miraculous happened. There's absolutely nothing miraculous about another walker being on the same path at half-past 2 in the afternoon. It's a hill path frequented by walkers. That's why they were there, after all. Furthermore, the additional text was redundant. All the points you made are both made and addressed in the following paragraph covering "controversy". Wikipedia has a strict policy of neutrality. Try sticking to it (whilst writing proper English, and not badly punctuated pidgin, and your edits will no doubt be considered valuable contributions.

Oh, and try sticking to the convention of adding your discussion at the bottom of a segment. That way people have some rudimentary chance of following the thread. Thanks. Cain Mosni 18:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I removed what you added and Cain is right about the reasons. --Guinnog 18:33, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Category?

As it appears that his death was a combination of "ill-health" and "accident" is there a list of "significant figures who died as a result of accidents" to which he could be added? (This would include the Greek philosopher who was killed by a falling tortoise.

PES

"At his death he was president of the Foreign Policy Centre, and the Party of European Socialists, and a vice-president on the America APPG and the Global Security and Non-Proliferation APPG."

Is this really true, and do we have a source? I know he was president of the PES at one time but I was fairly sure he left that post a year or more ago. — Trilobite (Talk) 22:23, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

I converted "He is currently ..." which was in the article at the beginning of today, to "At his death he was ...". The APPGs appear to be correct - the America APPG usually has all ex-Foreign Secretaries in senior posts, and he was certainly still President of the FPC. I'll check the PES Presidency as I think this is an biannual changeover post. David | Talk 23:30, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Now corrected - see PES website for his Presidency dates. David | Talk 23:33, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

I can't find him on the FPC's web site. (But I can't find any references to a president) Secretlondon 08:05, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

See Guardian guide to thinktanks. Cook set up the FPC in 1997 shortly after becoming Foreign Secretary, basically to provide him with a loyal think tank. I think 'President' is really an emeritus position which they gave him in order to keep him involved. David | Talk 15:08, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Why has this page been locked?

No major vandalism or edit war seems to have happened why lock it?

Jackliddle 22:25, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Please unlock page to allow genuine editing. if the Popes weren't locked why is this. Please support my case at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection, SqueakBox 22:31, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

It is fine now, SqueakBox 23:27, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

Albright

The article states that Madeleine Albright attended the funeral, but my recollection is that she was unable to because of illness. Can someone confirm this? Geoff97 21:35, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

You recollection is confirmed, however Joschka Fischer did attend. http://politics.guardian.co.uk/labour/story/0,,1548291,00.html 82.35.65.147 20:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Copyrighted image?

The image of Cook in Commons, linked to from this page, has the tag: "This image is a work of a U.S. military or Department of Defense employee, taken or made during the course of an employee's official duties."

Was Cook really an employee of the US military?? Suggests this could be a copyrighted image and should be moved to a fair use category. — SteveRwanda 15:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

The tag means that the image was taken by a US government employee in the course of that employee's official duties... WJBscribe 19:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

This article is quite biased

The person who wrote this article is probably working for the government, and seems like an apologist of the 'official' story. In every single statement he makes regarding the death,he/she attempts to back up the official story – without explanation. Ask yourselves: what do they have to gain? Are they working for someone who wants to believe this? Cook isn't the first person who died when he got on the wrong side of Blair. This article is quite biased.193.6.218.9 19:37, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Just going back to June 2006, there have been 100 editors of this article. To talk about "the person who wrote this article" is therefore a nonsense. Perhaps anon IP address 193.6.218.9 would like to tabulate exactly where the article is [allegedly] quite biased. The hundreds of editors (since the article's inception) can then have their say.Phase4 23:31, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I put in that paragraph because I was sick of the ridiculous assertions being made, usually by unregistered users strangely enough. I have taken care to explain what would seem the logical background to the various outlandish claims made regarding the circumstances of the death. It's very hard to back up something that is a simple fact, such as a 50-something man having a heart attack after physical exertion, these things simply happen. There is a place for conspiracy theories, but not here. If you know that the true facts are different and can back up your assertions, I'd be very pleased for you to insert them into the article. User:lawsonrob 22.12, 9 October 2006

Depiction in popular culture

Could someone add a section on Cook's depiction on Spitting Image and elsewhere. He was sometimes shown as a gnome and most often his speech style was spoofed as being hard to understand along with a genuine verbal tick to extend certain vowel sounds. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.85.13.68 (talk) 15:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

Viewfinder, a B and a V are neighbours on my keyboard. Please do not try to make up a war on such a small mistake. You will find more misspellings in my posts: a question of speed. Speed is necessary because there are people who wipe my points away before anybody can see them and judge. So "it seems" to you there is a contradiction ? Between yes and no we can find lots of "maybes" but here we have two very clear FACTS contradicting.

What about the wanderer ? Sometimes he appears, somtimes not. What about the broken neck ? What about Gaynor not knowing she is Cooks wife and leaving the place with the stranger ? And so on:

STOP brushing the controversies away.

Ask and edit - I will support any real work.

And do not force me to learn ALL ABOUT Wikipedia. I do not want to be menber of the club but I am willing to improve the article according the Wikipedia rules. Again: where is the Admin ? You wanted to call.

Or shall I do it ?

Controversy over death

There has been some controversy surrounding the death of Robin Cook. Some people have commented upon the length of time between his alleged heart attack and the official record of death which was allegedly caused by the time it took the emergency services to reach the remote location. But after being transported into the hospital it took another 3 hours before he was reported to have died.("But it was more than three hours later before police confirmed his d"[2])

Some people note the discrepancy between the official narration that his wife Gaynor had to call a stranger for asking him to call for help on his mobile phone and the report of the eulogy where Cooks last words were cited, written via SMS on his mobile phone. So they claim to get knowledge about the stranger.

He had been injured in the fall following his heart attack, suffering a broken neck, is the official explanation for his broken neck.

There are only two possible witnesses to state this succession of events: the unknown stranger and Cook`s wife.

The post mortem, carried out four days later, stated that he had died instantly from a severe heart attack, brought on by high blood pressure. It was not published but only cited by the Crowns Office in Edinburgh. This declaration did not even mention the broken neck.

It did not mention that Cook already had reached the summit of Ben Stack either according to his last SMS.( "Am at top of Ben Stack, view of Arkle and Foinaven can't be seen for mist - weather foul. Wish you were here."[3]) Which excludes high blood pressure at the time of his death. It does not mention the contradiction between his wife`s account (some steps before reaching the summit) and his own SMS statement.

All the facts can be obtained by reading the very first reports on Times-Online, Sun, Mirror and Scotsman online editions.

More here: [4] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Viewfinder (talk • contribs) 15:39, 11 May 2007 (UTC).

I transferred the above material from the main article, where it was posted by 84.159.95.149. Viewfinder 15:44, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

There may be a case for some of the above material in the main article, but I cannot follow some of its logic. Why does the fact that he had reached the summit exclude the possibility of high blood pressure? It does take time for emergency services to reach remote locations, that is normal. And I find nothing suspicious in the fact that it took three hours to report his death. Is it not usual to delay reporting a man's death until next-of-kin have been informed? I don't think the German website is an adequate citation per WP:RS. If there are discrepancies in the official narration, then these need to be better clarified and presented in a verifiable manner. Viewfinder 15:55, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

--- Viewfinder|: 1. You deleted twice material without comment. Vandalizing instead of disussing is not the way Wikipedia works. 2. To make the encyclopedia better you need to have a substance to improve it. That is why I will post the original material again. 3. Your comments and questions are welcome..

Here some answers:

- a) there is no sense to include "some of the material" into the article. We are taling controversial, that is why the EXTRA section was introduced. -b) If you cannot follow the logic: here is the discussion board. Feel free to ask and to argue: I am perfectly willing to correct sentences. -c) If high blood pressure in general was said to be the cause of Cook`s death underlined by his wife`s narration of him being only steps from the summit and being faster than she was IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO KNOW THAT HE HAD ALREADY REACHED THE SUMMIT. It is what we call a CONTRADICTION. That is why we have the section : to point out the contradictions. You delete them. Hypertensive blood disease may end deadly. But he was under surveillance, Ben Stack is not very high, and HE WAS NOT CLIMBING ANYMORE . All this contradicts the official version. You vandalized it.

-d) You say: "And I find nothing suspicious in the fact that it took three hours to report his death." Neither me. And I agree to your cause why to delay it. But then tell us why this delay was not mentioned in the media and not here in the article ? The delay was not caused in the facts, as you may find out. Cook was 100% dead on his arrival. It was the police which did withold the public proclamation. Why ? Obviously because of the broken neck. Which does not appear in the public discussion any more but which caused the post mortem. Or do you think that every corpse gets a post mortem especially when it seems to be allegedly so cristal clear that people with hypertensive blood disease use to die frequently when wandering ?

-e) Your claim that you do not like the website is interesting. Name another one which provides more and better information about cook`s death.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.159.95.149 (talk • contribs)

With all due respect, 84.159.95.149, the material that you added is not in a suitable format for a main article. Please do not accuse me of vandalism. I deleted your material ONCE (another editor deleted it before me), I transferred it here, and commented at some length. A website in German is not a suitable source for English wikipedia because it cannot be easily used for verification by those without good knowledge of German, and there are questions about its reliability. I still cannot see how the three hour delay should be given as evidence for controversy, and that he reached the summit is insufficient evidence. (I am a hillwalker too). Ben Stack may not be very high but it is a steep climb and it has to be climbed from near to sea level. Hillwalkers can and do collapse on such mountains. Viewfinder 19:02, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I have never been sure that there were no suspicious circumstances, but claims of controversy should only be made on Wikipedia if the controversy has been public, and claims of public controversy must be better sourced per WP:RS and WP:V, and less of the writer's personal analysis of the situation. Otherwise, a better place to push your analysis would be a blog, forum or your own website. Viewfinder 19:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

As you may have noticed I was not the only one who worked on the section too. You destroy, erase, delete and vandalize what others try to find out, make better and post here to get improved.

That is a simple and obvious fact.

The Website which was so disturbing to you (but which contains all the sources needed in this disussion) I left out now. And I am waiting for your proposal for a better website which discuses the death of Mr. Cook.

When you judged Ben Stack to be a breathtaking walk, feel free to do so. It is irrelevant because I could prove that Cook was already on the top since about one hour when he died. That contradicts the narration of his wife. It should be said. As it must get common knowledge

- the broken neck

- the unknown wanderer

- the delay in the post mortem and the pronounciation d death

and so many other details which do not fit together. I do accept that you may have another explanantion for all of that. Untill now I did not see any explanation. I only notice who the divergential narrations are cut out for only one still standing.

You cannot discuss and explain and make up your mind if you do not know the facts. Do not try to hinder me to introduce facts. Or do you doubt the SMS ? So say so. Or do you doubt the broken neck ? Then tell us. Or do you kno there was no third person ? Tell us. And so on.

You have - untill now - vandalized. You did not cooperate to make the article better. Decide how you will go on.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.159.95.149 (talk • contribs)

Be sure that I have been editing in good faith, and supply a reliable source to support your claim that there has been public controversy on this issue. Two other editors have deleted your material from the main page. Viewfinder 20:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I am also unable to find, in your Sun and Scotsman sources, evidence of a contradiction between the official account and his wife's account. Viewfinder 20:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Viewfinder: I am able to provide more sources - but you are the one who erase what I provide. You "threatened" to report this all to the administration. I tell you openly: Feel free to do so. I WANT TO GET IT PUBLIC THAT THE CONTROVERSY GETS VANDALIZED.

Report it.

I agree with Viewfinder's removal of this material. It is just speculation and hearsay. Please bear in mind the policy set out at Wikipedia:Verifiability: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source." Please cite reliable sources (preferably multiple independent reliable sources) that have previously published claims of controversy over Robin Cook's death (a web forum is not a reliable source). Please also avoid weasel words like "some say". —Jeremy (talk) 20:44, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

As I said: I see The Times, Sun, Mirror and Scotsman as reasonably reliable sources. It is you who censor those sources out. Weasel words ? Make your own research: It was the me who introduced facts and sources - the weasel words liek "some say" are not mine. I did not erase them. It seems to be a sin not to delete what others write.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.159.123.236 (talk • contribs)

OK, so if there are articles in the Times, Sun, Mirror and Scotsman that discuss these allegations of controversy over Robin Cook's death you should have no problem in giving specific citations. The sources, dates of publication, and titles of the articles would be sufficient. —Jeremy (talk) 12:43, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

OK. You Jeremy the Wise grant to me what is Wikipedia policy ? Thank you very much. I appreciate very much your sovereignity an I will kiss your feet.

Again: please note the Admin board. I am waiting.

Secondly: Must the article which you allow me to present here have the headline "Controvery over Robin Cook`s Death" ? Do you expect in the first line a statement like

"We, the editors of "The Scotsman" herby declare the following facts as so contradictionary to the official version that we judge this article to be worth to be submitted to Jeremy the Wise"?

You will not get that. Be assured. No chance.

I tell it again: The Scotsman quoted a SMS message by Robin Cook. This contradicts all stories about him not having a mobile phone, about him not having reached the summit, about the need to call a stranger, about the sudden collapse while climbing.

I quoted it. It is a veryfiable source. I am not responsible for the contradiction, and I see no cause why Wikipedia should only retell one version and not the other.

There are lots of those contradictions. I would like to post them. I have no problem if they get edited, if opinions arise (although I prefer that any reader makes up his mind himself on the base of the diverging facts). But I reject this vandalism.

Again: if you do not call the Admin, I will do it, and if necessary I will plug through Login procedures and so on. Make this controvery public. I do want it. Because I am right - and you are ....

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.159.109.23 (talk • contribs)

Hmm, interesting variety of IP numbers. Please could you provide a reliable source for your claim about stories about him not having a mobile phone or not reaching the summit? If you can, then there may be a contradiction which is worthy of mention in the main article. Viewfinder 14:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Here you are, Biewfinder: "Neither of the Cooks was carrying a mobile phone but Mrs Cook’s cries for help were answered by a walker, who called the emergency services at about 2.23pm" Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article552898.ece

But what with all the other contradictions ? Ask me: i will deliver. But not when you or Jeremy wipe away my findings. Again: call the Admin. I want it.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.159.109.23 (talk • contribs)

Please sign your posts in future. And take more care to spell my username correctly. Misspellings of usernames can cause offence, especially in the light of the earlier vandalism accusations. And we will continue to delete unsourced commentary. But there does appear to be a contradiction between [5] and [6] concerning the mobile phone, which could perhaps be pointed out in the article, but I'm not sure if this shows anything more than a case of mistaken reporting. Multiple contradictions may suggest something more sinister, if these can be shown then they should be listed in the main article, but I don't think it is for us to speculate about the motives, unless a reliable source can be found to support such speculation. Viewfinder 15:08, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

If there was a controversy, there needs to be a source for the controversy. Citing contradictory claims (from different sources) and deducing a contradiction sounds like original research to me. (JeremyA is an admin.) -- roundhouse 15:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)Additionally: you speculate. Not me. You speculate i.e. what a list of contradictions might make up. But in fact you block the appearance of suc a list. You talk about what might happen if more contradictions would be shown.

Is it the policy of Wikipedia to let everybody improve the articles ? Why do you work against that intention, why must I undersign and so on ? I sign by good and reliable sources, by interesting details. You dlete and continue to delete and steal a lot of time. By suggestions and opinion, but not by facts.