Talk:Twin Peaks/Archive 5

This is an archive of past discussions about Twin Peaks. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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Major themes

In a change to the article, I made the entry that a major theme of the show was that it was on the border with Canada. From the beginning the location of the town is declared as an important element, the fictional town being set only five miles from the border, and the local brothel being across the border, where prostitution is legal, where several scenes take place. An editor claims it was not a major theme, and removed it. The diff is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Twin_Peaks&diff=846811403&oldid=846802929 -Inowen (nlfte) 02:35, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

I stand by that edit. It is a theme of the show, yes, but not a major one. Indeed, the story about the brothel, Mr. Horne, the Renault Bros., etc., is a misdirect. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 11:04, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

I stand by my edit which includes some basic information about the premise of the show, which comes verbatim from the show itself, that the fictional town is set very close to the border with Canada (Season 1, episode 1), that there is a brothel there which is featured several times early in the show, and that the town has a drug problem which comes from across the border (Season 1, episode 4). Your evaluation of all these elements as being a "misdirect," is it your own? -Inowen (nlfte) 23:22, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

What is it about

User:TheOldJacobite has not returned my comment in two weeks, so I restored the material which he removed. It was edited down by Popcornduff, (diff) and I asked Popcornduff to reply on the matter, which he did on his talk page. I copied his comments below for ease of reading, and also because it doesn't seem appropriate to have article discussions on user talk pages, and it seems like a way to duck discussions on article topics:-Inowen (nlfte) 22:34, 6 July 2018 (UTC) Can you please note your edits on the talk page, since your edits are removals, not additions. Thanks, -Inowen (nlfte) 20:58, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Moved from Talk:Popcornduff

Can you please note your edits on the talk page, since your edits are removals, not additions. Thanks, -Inowen (nlfte) 20:58, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Yo. I explained why I removed the text in my edit summary. If you're still not sure why I made the change, it's because your edit violates two Wikipedia policies:

as per WP:LEAD, "significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article". You added information to the lead that isn't in the body of the article.
as per WP:OR, Wikipedia cannot contain original research. You added information to the lead without a reliable source.

Hope that helps. Popcornduff (talk) 21:03, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

@Inowen: Also, please note that there is not (as you appear to think) a policy that removal of content must be treated differently from addition of content in terms of explanation via edit summary versus article talk page. General Ization ^Talk 21:05, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

This conversation belongs at Talk:Twin Peaks. -Inowen (nlfte) 22:26, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

The series follows an investigation headed by FBI Special Agent Dale Cooper (Kyle MacLachlan) into the murder of homecoming queen Laura Palmer (Sheryl Lee) in the fictional town of Twin Peaks, Washington, near the Canadian border. A major theme of the show deals with Twin Peaks as a border town with Canada, and the crime that occurs near the border, such as prostitution and the illegal drug trade. The name "Twin Peaks" thus is a metaphor for the two civilizations of America and Britain, one democratic and the other monarchial, and the border skirmishes between them. The supernatural elements are featured in Agent Cooper's dreams, as well as in the visions of others around town —Palmer appears in and talks to Agent Cooper in dreams, assisting him in solving Laura Palmer's murder.

Not really sure what your point is. See Popcornduff's comments above; you have still not provided a reliable source that supports your contention that the "border town" aspect is a major theme, or for your contention that the title is an intended metaphor for US-Canadian relations. Unless and until you can find and cite such sources, the content may not be added to the article (and if and when it is, it probably belongs somewhere other than the lead). General Ization ^Talk 22:54, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

If it says in the work, a teleplay in this case, that the town is 'a few miles from the United States-Canadian border,' can that be added to the article, or does there need to be some kind of strictly-commercial journalism or strickly-novice blogging that indicates this second-hand? -Inowen (nlfte) 23:33, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, we can include information given in the series itself. But for the purposes of the lead, which should only cover the most important stuff in an article, the proximity of the town to the border doesn't seem worth mentioning. If you want to include actual discussion of why it's relevant to the plot and themes, you could add this to the article itself (not the lead) - but you'll need to find reliable sources saying that. You can't just add your own personal take. This is an encyclopaedia. Popcornduff (talk) 00:11, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Nobody's adding their own personal take, as much as a great multitude of individuals are coordinating on this article to have it reflect their collective take on the meaning of the story, where the "proximity to the border" (your words, note its not a matter of "distance" its a matter of "proximity") is an aspect which is indeed a part of the story about this fictional town, so the teleplay script:

"Diane, 11:30 am, February 24. Entering the town of Twin Peaks, five miles South of the Canadian border, twelve miles West of the state line." -Dale Cooper, character, said to be an agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, "Twin Peaks" season 1, episode 1

requires us to add to the lede section the little bit that

..the fictional town is set "five miles south of the Candian border, twelve miles west of the state line," near where the actual towns of Metaline and Metaline Falls are located.

-Inowen (nlfte) 03:33, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

And where is the published source that allows us to verify that the teleplay script contains the text you have suggested above? Also, please see Assume good faith. We are not "coordinating"; we are pointing out the same published policies of Wikipedia concerning verifiability of content. If you continue to ignore (or are unable to understand) those policies, it will make your career as an editor here rather short. General Ization ^Talk 03:38, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Regardless of the lack of source, nothing is important enough about that detail that we need to add it to the lead. Popcornduff (talk) 03:43, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

@General Ization, the text is from the television show, available on the Internet, and the above is transcript from it. Are you arguing that what is said in the show doesn't matter? Or are you arguing that the a newspaper or magazine or book has to specifically verify this aspect, which is easily found in the transcript of the work itself? -Inowen (nlfte) 03:50, 7 July 2018 (UTC) PS: I also didnt make any accusations such as to evoke an AGF warning. You read my usage of "coordinating" in a way that was not actual. -Inowen (nlfte) 03:57, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

I am arguing that we require published, reliable sources – and yes, preferably secondary, not primary, sources – for all content on Wikipedia, as you should well know by now. Simply saying "watch the show" is not the provision of a reliable source. And, as Popcornduff says above, even if those words appear in the teleplay, that does not mean they must be included in the lead. You have provided no evidence that the show's creators considered the proximity to the Canadian border to be a major plot point, nor that we should. General Ization ^Talk 03:59, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Is the actual teleplay itself, and the Common American English used in it an "unreliable source?" How would a commercial (the essence of the word "published") source be automatically reliable and the transcript text not? The show's creators did indeed put the dialogue in the teleplay, early in the show during Dale Cooper's first appearance, that the town he's going to, the fictional town named after the show, or the show named after the fictional town, either way, is "five miles south of the Canadian border." Its not Miami Vice, that set in and around Miami. Its not Mr. Rogers, thats set in and around Mr. Roger's neighborhood. -Inowen (nlfte) 04:13, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Where possible, secondary sources are preferable to primary sources. It is not inconceivable that the proximity to the border has been mentioned in one of the billions of articles about Twin Peaks out there - have you looked? But really should you be persuading us why this matters at all. Popcornduff (talk) 04:20, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

I should be taking you each to dispute resolution, since the basic idea here, what the creators of the show put into words spoken and recorded as part of the show, is that this town is close to Canada: the town has a brothel, but in Canada, the town has a severe heroin problem, which comes from Canada, that the lead characters deliver a covert operation, in Canada, to rescue a top female character, that the female character was led to work at the brothel, but the brothel is in Canada, that they get some criminals killed, but in Canada, that they make the Mountees angry and they send in a representative, that Canada blames the lead character for the covert operation and gets him suspended, that the same representative Mountee works for the crime boss and plants cocaine on the lead characters car, from Canada. Etc. -Inowen (nlfte) 04:30, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Feel free to take it wherever you like, but before you do, you should read the Wikipedia policies to which I have included links (multiple times) above, to which you will be directed wherever you might take it. And also refer to WP:CONSENSUS. At this point, you have failed to achieve consensus for your proposed changes, and hence they should not be made. General Ization ^Talk 04:36, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Page move discussion

Please see this discussion. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 09:41, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Punctuation in "Season 2"

The section for season 2 has a lot of inconsistency with punctuation, especially with the use of quotation marks. I have updated everything in this section to reflect proper American styling, which puts punctuation inside of quotation marks. The rest of the article seems to follow this formatting, so I updated this section to make the page more consistent.

Killer Bob and Mike page move

Please see this discussion. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 07:26, 1 July 2020 (UTC)