Editing Talk:Voiceless alveolo-palatal fricative
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:::Maybe I'm deaf but I've never noticed that - in fact, I'm quite sure that Till does NOT have the merger and uses an actual {{IPA|[ç]}} for standard {{IPA|/ç/}}. I'm not sure whether this is his native pronunciation or just a learned standard pronunciation - not that it really matters either way. [[User:Sol505000|Sol505000]] ([[User talk:Sol505000|talk]]) 21:43, 25 October 2021 (UTC) |
:::Maybe I'm deaf but I've never noticed that - in fact, I'm quite sure that Till does NOT have the merger and uses an actual {{IPA|[ç]}} for standard {{IPA|/ç/}}. I'm not sure whether this is his native pronunciation or just a learned standard pronunciation - not that it really matters either way. [[User:Sol505000|Sol505000]] ([[User talk:Sol505000|talk]]) 21:43, 25 October 2021 (UTC) |
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:::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOnSh3QlpbQ] There - {{IPA|[ɪç vɪl]}}. Non-sibilant, medio-palatal. Unmistakable. And if I'm wrong about this, then at BEST he says {{IPA|[ɪɕ vɪl]}}, with a non-labialized alveolo-palatal sibilant. He absolutely does not have a merger with {{IPA|/ʃ/}} which to him and most Germans has little to no palatalization and features a noticeable labialization (which, if increased, would make {{IPA|/ʃ/}} sound like {{IPA|[ɸ]}}). |
:::[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOnSh3QlpbQ] There - {{IPA|[ɪç vɪl]}}. Non-sibilant, medio-palatal. Unmistakable. And if I'm wrong about this, then at BEST he says {{IPA|[ɪɕ vɪl]}}, with a non-labialized alveolo-palatal sibilant. He absolutely does not have a merger with {{IPA|/ʃ/}} which to him and most Germans has little to no palatalization and features a noticeable labialization (which, if increased, would make {{IPA|/ʃ/}} sound like {{IPA|[ɸ]}}). |
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:::This makes me wonder whether {{IPA|[ɕ]}} (an actual Polish {{angbr|ś}} without ''any'' labialization) for {{IPA|/ç/}} is actually non-standard. After all, the fricative variant of Swedish {{IPA|/j/}} is invariably transcribed with {{angbr IPA|ʝ}}, even though {{IPA|[ʑ]}} also exists as its allophone - but |
:::This makes me wonder whether {{IPA|[ɕ]}} (an actual Polish {{angbr|ś}} without ''any'' labialization) for {{IPA|/ç/}} is actually non-standard. After all, the fricative variant of Swedish {{IPA|/j/}} is invariably transcribed with {{angbr IPA|ʝ}}, even though {{IPA|[ʑ]}} also exists as its allophone - but the two are never distinguished. Furthermore, Urban East Norwegian {{IPA|/ç/}} is "often alveolo-palatal", per Kristoffersen (2000). So the fact that the ''sign'' {{angbr IPA|ç}} is used in transcriptions of German doesn't mean that the fricative can only be mediopalatal. We need serious research (unless it's already been done and I'm not aware of it) into the phonetic nature of German {{IPA|/ç/}} and {{IPA|/ʃ/}} as they are pronounced by speakers considered to speak Standard German (meaning: non-regional German Standard German). Recasens would be perfect for the job, no? [[User:Sol505000|Sol505000]] ([[User talk:Sol505000|talk]]) 14:35, 27 October 2021 (UTC) |
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==Mandarin== |
==Mandarin== |