Talk:Creationism: Difference between revisions

IMPORTANT - If you wish to discuss or debate the validity of creationism please do so at talk.origins or Debatepedia. This "Discussion" page is only for discussion on how to improve the Wikipedia article. Any attempts at trolling, using this page as a soapbox, or making personal attacks may be deleted at any time.

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Archives 1 - 11 (November 2001 – March 2005 Archive 12 (May 2005) Archive 13 (June 2005) Archive 14 (September 2005) Archive 15 (August 2006) Archive 16 (remainder of 2006) Archive 17 (Jan 2007 - Mar 2007) Is Creationism a theory (August/September 2004) What is wrong with the lead section (September 2004) History of Creationism (September 2004) Selection as a creative force (October 2004) Ranting (May 2005) Up to August 2007 Up to August 2008 Up to October 2008 Up to January 2009

AfD for True.Origin Archive

FYI, True.Origin Archive has been recreated again (after being a redirect for more than a year. If you are interested, you can comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/True.Origin Archive. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:50, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

"Intelligent design creationist/-ism" is not a neutral term

It is specifically used by opponents of ID as an invective and is in no way in line with Wikipedia's policy on NPOV. 67.135.49.198 (talk) 19:05, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Nope, it's been documented and used in peer-reviewed publications. Guettarda (talk) 19:28, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Why is it used? It it a disambiguation due to "intelligent design" being used to describe other ideas? ^rossnixon 02:05, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure you'll provide proof of that the next time you revert the edit. 67.135.49.198 (talk) 21:47, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

It is needed to disambiguate. I believe in intelligent design, just as I believe in dumb design and bad design. Of course this is when referring to man made objects but xxx design is so frequently used in that context we do need to clarify the intention at certain points. In any case, there is nothing derogatory about it: ID is a creationist stance. The central tenet is that there must be a creator. Whether that creator is a deity or some other entity is irrelevant to its status as a creationist theory. To pretend otherwise is to protray the theory as somethign other than it is: that would be POV. CrispMuncher (talk) 21:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC).

protection

I request a form of protection for this article. I saw that an IP apparently made a vandalistic edit and then 1 minute later reverted it. I don't know what he/she was trying to do but I doubt we have seen the end of it.Prussian725 (talk) 20:53, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

This happens all the time on many articles, not just this one. Someone makes a change and for some reason is surprised to learn that their change has taken effect. I don't know why people bother if they assume that is not going to be the case. This article has had to put up with far more abuse than odd test edits like the last one in the edit history. In any case, if you want this page protected WP:RPP is the place to ask for it. CrispMuncher (talk) 21:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC).

Thank you. I just didn't know exactly what to do or what would happen.Prussian725 (talk) 04:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Impotence

Recently, I came across this article (as part of my routine favorite topic trawl) and discovered an exceedingly odd anomaly towards the end of it: the scientific critique. Considering the size of the debate over creationism and evolution, and the even larger mass of evidence for evolution, I would have expected this section to be a lot beefier, not the meek end note that it is; it, in my opinion at least, severely understates the scientific opposition to creationism, relying on the opinions of a few high profile scientists, particularly Stephen Jay Gould (the foremost evolutionary biologist, in the eyes of the United States public), relegating it to 'we can't touch them.' Why? Because theologians and Stephen J. Gould said so. The writer (or writers) clearly do not understand what a scientific critique is; this critique looks more like a journalistic opinion piece. My fellow Wikipedians must realize that when it comes to science based wikipedia articles or sections, scientific referencing must over-ride opinion referencing (i.e. it matters not what they say, but how relevant, accurate, trustworthy and non-biased their evidence is) and quality rules over quantity.

P.S. the recently added last paragraph may need some references, specifically to Daniel Dennett's skyhook concept. NonChalance (talk) 12:13, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

P.P.S. I spoke too soon. That paragraph did have a point, and it may need formalizing; It is not the personal reflections of the author, merely a representation of the aforementioned Dan Dennett and Richard Dawkins. NonChalance (talk) 12:33, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

You must also keep in mind that there is an article for the creationism-evolution controversy. This article is specifically about creationism.Prussian725 (talk) 16:09, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Please add link in External links, Evolution"

Please add link in "External links, Evolution":

• Evolution Sciences versus Doctrines of Creationism and Intelligent Design

Ziegelangerer (talk) 08:50, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Creationism outside Genesis

The article should maybe explain that Christian creationism does not historically always rely on the Genesis account. For instance, in the beginning of the Gospel of John, there is a narrative on the divine Word that forms the basis for a great deal of early Christian theology, especially in Church Fathers like Clement of Alexandria. Also, many of the early apostles that had met Jesus in person accordingly believed that he was the living Creator, and therefore their early preaching had very little to do with contemporary literalist interpretations of the Genesis book. There are related beliefs about the Holy Trinity that require a more philosophical and intellectual hermeneutic of scripture. ADM (talk) 07:07, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

A secondary source is needed for such a claim. The closest I've seen is William Dembski's 'Logos' quote, which places Intelligent design creationism (but not creationism more generally) in the context of John's gospel. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 07:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Such as " Cook, Frederic Charles, ed. (1881), The Holy Bible According To The Authorized Version (A.D. 1611) With an Explanatory and Critical Commentary and a Revision of the Translation by Bishops and Other Clergy of the Anglican Church, vol. 3, pp. 656–657" ? Dan Watts (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" - is a gloss on Genesis 1, which has God creating the world "in the beginning" by the power of the divine word ("God said, Let there be light! and the was light," and so on). So I'm sorry, but your point is not valid. PiCo (talk) 07:19, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Multiple creators?

The article suggests that some creationists believe that multiple "deities" created the Universe. Is this true? The Classical gods of polytheism generally are not seen as creators. Steve Dufour (talk) 15:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you're discounting some very notable polytheistic creation myths. For instance, in the Ancient Egyptian religion, you've got your pick of several different versions of creation involving one or more gods, such as Ptah. I imagine most religions have a creation myth of some sort. In old polytheistic religions, they seem to mostly involve the creation of the lands the beliefs originate in, rather than creation of the entire world, but the difference is probably academic, as I doubt they had any idea the world was very big at all. --GoodDamon 18:40, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Check out Creation myths for a buffet of various creation myths. KillerChihuahua^?!? 18:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying that creationism existed in ancient Egypt? I have no problem if you are, but I think most people would think of it only refering to modern times, like the last 200 years or so. Steve Dufour (talk) 23:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

The Sumerians had creationism, about 20 centuries ago (1800 BC) which is 10 times the past you are giving creationism. I don't know what "most people" think. KillerChihuahua^?!? 13:45, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

It depends on your definition of "creationism." The first sentence of this article defines it this way: "Creationism is the belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their original form by a deity (often the Abrahamic God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam) or deities." By that definition, you could definitely have had strict creationist ancient Egyptians. In fact, without modern scientific knowledge, I imagine the majority of them attributed the existence of the world to their gods. I think the article on Young Earth creationism is more in line with what you're thinking of. --GoodDamon 15:28, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

No problem then. BTW I have heard it said that there were some atheists in ancient Egypt. Also does the belief that the Universe was created by supernatural agency, but not by specific "deities", also count as creationism? This is what some Buddhists and New Agers seem to think. Steve Dufour (talk) 14:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I think that we need to distinguish between creation myths generally, and 'Creationism', a group of movements that grew out of religiously-motivated 'Anti-evolutionism' in the 20th century. However, as at least one strand of creationism, Hindu creationism, is polytheistic, I think including the possibility of multiple creators is appropriate. Creationism does not entail monotheism. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 04:05, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. That was the point I was trying to make. I think most people when they hear the word "creationism" or "creationist" are going to think of modern anti-evolutionists, not ancient Egyptians or Hindus.Steve Dufour (talk) 15:14, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Ummm, some Hindus are "modern anti-evolutionists" -- again, see Hindu creationism. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 17:36, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Then include them. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 18:23, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Ummm, they're already included: Creationism#Hinduism and creationism. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 02:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

On the subject that creationism doesn't imply a monotheistic notion, (i think) it should be understood that there is an interesting possibility that the wider notion of creation as an event might be seen to do so< creation will presumably refer to the primary creation, that is, the creation of the possibility of there being a creator alongside (as the same event) the creation of everything else (including any other possibilities!). Although this clearly begins to outline the paradox of the absolute existence of anything, it is easier to agree with this notion if it is seen to imply the creator as a single entity.

No doubt those who agree with the reduction of the definition of "creationism" to the views espoused by those with an agenda focusing on the rebuttal of the supposed contrary notions of evolutionary theory, will mark the above idea as one not consistent with being within the wider theory of creationism, by their definition. I, however, don't think such a reduction is necessary, nor indeed conducive to furthering the intellectual rigour of any or all of the people in either or indeed neither camp.Dubfeather (talk) 17:46, 4 June 2009 (UTC) my last post was probably mostly hot air of a decidedly soapy nature, in summary though i don't think it is necessary to define (nor treat)creationism as being wholly existent as a way of trying to refute evolutionary theory, not least as it clearly pre-dates the latter theory . I think the two notions co-exist quite happily as entirely seperate theories, rather than being totally at odds as they clearly try to explain different areas of thinking. Dubfeather (talk) 18:14, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Literal?

I removed the word "literal" from the text. When Genesis 1 clearly states that the solar day was not created until the 4th day, you cannot take the Bible literally and believe that the first 3 days are solar days of 24 hours each. It does not say that if you take it literally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.11.151.136 (talk) 02:09, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Creation days and Orthodox Jewish tradition. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 03:27, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

You can if you're an ancient Israelite and don't believe that the sun is all that important for creating light. PiCo (talk) 06:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Bias of representing Christian views

Why does this article only represent what some Catholic and Anglican beliefs are? It should also include that many Pentecostals, Baptists, Orthodox and Brethren advocate creation science.

1. Pentecostal: The largest church in Australia adheres to creationism (20,000 people). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsong_Church#Beliefs

2. Baptist: The most famous Baptist Pastor in the USA at the moment also supports creationism. . This statistic could also be included: "54% of creationist churches in the UK are Baptist of some form"

4. Orthodox: The position of “scientific creationism” in Russian Orthodoxy is maintained by traditionalists. Its adherents set up an Orthodox “Shestodnev” (Creatio) in May 2000 blessed by His Holiness Patriarch of Moscow and Russia Aleksii II.

--Lskil09 (talk) 15:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

1. "Pentecostal: The largest church in Australia" -- irrelevant: Pentacostalism is not the largest denomination in Australia -- Catholicism is (Pentacostalism is only the 8th largest, see Religion in Australia).
2. "The most famous Baptist Pastor in the USA at the moment also supports creationism" -- but Warren is not prominent for his advocacy of creationism.
3. "This statistic could also be included: '54% of creationist churches in the UK are Baptist of some form'" Given that less than 2.3% of the UK is Baptist (Religion in the United Kingdom) this does not appear to be particularly relevant (nor is it particularly surprising).
4. Lacking any third-party information on these creationist traditionalist Russian Orthodoxes, let alone information on their prevalence, there's little reason to include them.

None of this information appears to be particularly relevant. Appropriate information would be official doctrinal pronouncements of the ruling bodies of significantly large Christian denominations. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 16:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

A missing dimension to the article?

The article deals with the conflict between science and creationism ("mainstream scientific research produces conclusions which contradict a creationist interpretation of scripture..."), but doesn't touch on the conflict between biblical studies (in the academic sense) and creationism. This essentially boils down to creationism's insistence on a literal reading of key passages of scripture - this is totally at odds with modern biblical studies, and has been for a very long time. The mainstream of contemporary academic study treats the bible as literature - the creation of a group of people (not God's word - that's a crucial difference) working within a specific culture. I think this needs to be reflected in the article. PiCo (talk) 06:42, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Possibly because Biblical scholars are (i) less well known than scientists working in the evo/creo debate & (ii) less interested in going head-to-head with creationists. If you can find commentary to this effect from a reasonably prominent & mainstream Biblical scholar, then by all means include it. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 07:25, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

This article is unbalanced and editing reveals POV

This article is unbalanced and puts the argument from a particular POV.

It focusses too heavily on a certain kind of creation belief, i.e. Christian (sic.) and on certain controversies emanating from one country, i.e. the United States.

I am not American and I do not want my kids to learn about this subject in such distorted terms. Creationism is an age old belief system that has appeared in many cultures, and presumably has changed greatly over time (though it is hard to know how this has been).

The most aggregious is the sequencing of the history section which paints intelligent design as emerging after evolution. This categorises evolution as a belief system (because it is presumably supposed to be a history of creationism) and the sequencing is undoubtedly meant to imply that the intelligent design has superceded evolution historically. I hate to remind you that evolution and creationist theories do not belong side by side. Evolution is a scientific theory based on evidence. All the others listed are belief systems. Evolution by natural selection is NOT a belief system in the same way as the others are.

I also object to Christianity claiming ownership of the biblical creation myth. Genesis is accepted by SOME Christians (but by no means all) but it is not per se a Christian belief but an adopted Jewish one.

The particular tumult that has engulfed the United States is primarily local to that country and therefore parochial as far as readers outside the U.S. is concerned. Discussion of it should be moved to an article Creationism disputes in the United States. All the stuff anout New earth creationism and intelligent design belongs in there. It can only be understood from that perspective. People in Europe, Asia, Australasia etc are not going through the same torment and this should not be painted as if it were a worldwide phenomenon. It just isn't.--Hauskalainen (talk) 22:15, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

There's a note at the top of the page that explains some of this:

"Creationism" can also refer to creation myths, or to a concept about the origin of the soul. For the movement in Spanish literature, see creacionismo.

The article attempts to give due weight to relevant sources. If you believe that there are important sources that have been left out or that were not given due consideration, please do point us toward those sources (and you are, of course, always welcome to add material yourself, or discuss proposed changes). Thanks. Guettarda (talk) 22:38, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I do not understand what you are trying to say. Either that or you have not actually read what I said. Creationism is the sum of creation myths. Now I don't use the term "myth" with the intention to offend people - it doesn't imply untrue but just unevidenced. This is of course the essense of faith. I am not arguing that the article needs more references. It needs to be stripped of its over emphasis on material related to Christianity and the debate in the U.S. Those are interesting but do not reflect a global perspective. We do not need to get it out of Wikipedia but it needs to be discussed in its proper context. If my kids read the article as it stands now it does not really reflect a proportionate view of this subject and in a way that will enable them to explore the minefield of information out there as they discover it. That should be in another article where it can be read and understood in perspective.And we must not portray evolution as a myth because it is supported by an overwhelming body of evidence.--Hauskalainen (talk) 00:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Another example is that the history section completely ignores the huge advances in the area of the physical (non-biological sciences). We have theories about the creation of the universe that make very precise predictions in the area of astrophysics that can trace events right from the very first nanoseconds of the big bang right thru to the universe as we see it today and the universe as we have good reason to believe it will be many billions of years ahead. There are still mysteries but very few serious scientics arounf the globe will attribute that to supernatural deities. I am deeply disgusted by the way this is presented. I am new to editing this article so I reallý would like to open up these issues to discussion before changing the article.--Hauskalainen (talk) 00:23, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

These theories that you think are so 'precise', are very tentative. For example, it may yet be discovered that there is no dark matter and no dark energy. Astrophysics and cosmology present major and constantly changing challenges. Wikipedia articles state what reliable sources state (from all relevant viewpoints), not just what the current scientific consensus is. ^rossnixon 02:39, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Sounds pretty good to me, really, seeing as reliable sources in favour of Creationism are few and far between. — NRen2k5^(TALK), 02:45, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

47 percent?!

I find this figure to be HIGHLY dubious. The source it cites is a creationist site expressing its outrage at how few Christian colleges and universities teach YEC given the purportedly large percentage of the American population that ascribes to it. This coupled with the fact that I've lived in the US all twenty four years of my life and have met literally ONE young earth creationist (the manager at my local Radio Shack, FWIW). And yes I've even met a handful of Evangelical Christians, but they all accepted something resembling intelligent design or theistic evolution. Is there a more credible source to back this up or (hopefully) a more credible source to refute this high estimation? Wormwoodpoppies (talk) 17:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Does Theistic evolution belong in this article?

Theistic evolution is normally not considered part of Creationism and in fact many TEers are prominent anticreationists. Does this section belong in this article? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 04:02, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

See refs. 48 The Creation/Evolution Continuum, Eugenie Scott, which the NCSE have updated now, but continues the theme that it's a range of views, not hard boundaries. The article was largely based on the original version of that. Ref. 50 Who Believes What? Clearing up Confusion over Intelligent Design and Young-Earth Creationism, Marcus R. Ross, shows a more complex analysis with weak and strong TE, and the strong variety is further into the "creationist" range. Tne issue needs further clarification in the section, and in my opinion it would be better positioned after the Types of Christian creationism section: note that it's shown as the last item in the table at the start of that section. . . dave souza, talk 08:02, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The former merely places TE in a spectrum of views that also includes 'Agnostic Evolutionism' & 'Atheistic Evolutionism' -- neither of which would be considered 'Creationism' by an stretch of the imagination. Therefore mere inclusion in this spectrum does not classify a viewpoint as 'Creationism'. Further, to the 'Creationist' side of TE in the spectrum lies 'Evolutionary creationism', of which Scott states: "Despite its name, evolutionary creationism (EC) is actually a type of evolution." This clearly places EC, and thus also all positions to the 'evolutionary' side of it (including TE), within the 'evolution' (rather than 'creationism') side when dividing the spectrum into a dichotomy.

The Ross paper's definitions appear to be rather more idiosyncratic, with his 'Weak TE' & 'Weak DE' equating with what is more generally viewed as TE, while his 'Strong TE', ' Strong DE' and 'Intrinsic Design', as they explicitly affirm the "detectability of real design", necessarily falling under the category of (and constitute the Theistic, Desistic and Pantheistic forms, respectively, of) Intelligent Design. If Ross's definitions can be shown to have wider acceptance, then we will need to include his 'strong' TE/DE here as subforms of ID. As yet, I see no reason to include his 'weak' TE/DE (= TE/DE without qualifier, elsewhere) within Creationism. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 13:15, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

We merged evolutionary creationism into TE because there didn't seem to be a substantive difference between them. In my opinion we need TE here if only to show the distinction between antievolution and mainstream religious positions, which hold belief in creation without opposing science. Hence the spectrum. Agree that Ross seems to be making the thing more complex than needed, so the NCSE approach appears to be more generally accepted, and we don't need more than a passing reference to Ross. . . dave souza, talk 14:08, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I remember the history. My point was that Scott gives us explicit reason to (name notwithstanding) place EC, and thus by implication TE, into the 'evolution' side of a dichotomy -- and thus no reason to include TE to an article on the 'creationism' side (TE is still covered in creation-evolution controversy‎ -- which covers the whole spectrum). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 01:38, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Theistic Evolution belongs in the article. It also belongs in the Christian section as many manistream denominations support this view. "Theistic" states belief in a Creator, thus it is a broad version of Creationism. It does not conflict with science or evolution. This does not fit some people's restsrictive definition of Creationism but this is a subject with many fuzzy boundaries. Rlsheehan (talk) 14:15, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

"In relation to the creation-evolution controversy the term creationism is commonly used to refer to religiously motivated rejection of evolution as an explanation of origins." TE is not a "rejection of evolution" but rather an acceptance of it. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 14:22, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

That sentence from the article is too restrictive and tries to lock Creationism into a convenient corner. It seems that this sentence could be a straw man which allows easier arguments against creationism. The reality is fuzzier. Rlsheehan (talk) 15:25, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

No, it is a well-substantiated view, cognizant of the history of creationism. The creationist movement started out calling itself 'Anti-evolutionism' (and variations thereon), only taking on the name 'Creationism' as they started to develop their own alternate (generally YEC Flood geology-related) hypotheses. See the history contained in the book The Creationists for details. The sentence is cited to that book's author, Ronald L. Numbers -- generally considered to be the foremost historian of creationism. If you want to overturn it, you will need to come up with multiple bullet-proof RSs stating the contrary. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 17:35, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Hrafn is right, and in most usage nowadays creationism means antievolution in a variety of forms. We cite Ron Numbers as saying that the term was contested up to the 1980s, and various believers in creation who fully accept the science of evolution may still wish to associate the term with their variety of what we'd call theistic evolution. In my view it's important to describe all these positions, and be careful not to give any credence to the idea that religious views are inherently anti-evolution.

Can't see where we cover this, but Ron Numbers says "As late as the 1920s antievolutionists chose to dedicate their organizations to "Christian Fundamentals," "Anti-Evolution," and "Anti-False Science," not to creationism. It was not until 1929 that one of George McCready Price’s former students, the Seventh-day Adventist biologist Harold W. Clark, explicitly packaged Price’s new catastrophism as "creationism." In a brief self-published book titled Back to Creationism Clark urged readers to quit simply opposing evolution and to adopt the new "science of creationism," by which he meant Price’s flood geology. For decades to come various Christian groups, from flood geologists to theistic evolutionists, squabbled over which camp most deserved to use the creationist label. However, by the 1980s the flood geologists/scientific creationists had clearly co-opted the term for their distinctive interpretation of earth history."[1] That clearly dates the modern antievolution use of the term from 1929, but "creationist" was in use earlier in that sense among proponents of evolution.[2][3] Darwin used the term in his unpublished essays of 1842 and 1844,[4] in correspondence in 1856,[5] and in a review published by the Linnean Society in 1853.[6] Evidently the term had currency in scientific circles by then, and it is used by Asa Gray in his 1888 collection of essays.[7] All of these cases use it for antievolution. Pretty sure there are some references to such usage in modern Darwin biographies. . . dave souza, talk 00:00, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Ah, the reference to Darwin and friends using the term was actually from Ron Numbers.[8] Anyway, so far the changes seem ok to me, it makes sense to have TE as part of the history: there was early use of the idea by Baden Powell, and theistic support of natural selection was published by Asa Gray. Something to add. . . dave souza, talk 20:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Except for the fact that the section portrays TE from a modern-day perspective, rather than a historical one. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 02:03, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Yup, will need to cover that by appropriate revision, noting at some point that TE as developed to leave out supernatural intervention became and remains the mainstream religious viewpoint. So much to do, will try shortly. . dave souza, talk 03:00, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Lead and references

The second sentence of the lead was not supported by the reference cited to it, and there was no reference for the third sentence. I've added references giving basic definitions, cited to the NCSE and Ron Numbers, and have modified these sentences accordingly. . . dave souza, talk 20:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Christian critique.

Am I the only one who doesn't understand the argument in the section labeled "Christian critique"? --Hauskalainen (talk) 01:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The stuff sourced to the Bible seems unnecessary, the whole section sourced to Murphy is poorly sourced (some sort of bulletin?), has only one reference, who is George Murphy and why should we care, and the entire thing looks like Christian apologetics aimed at a Christian audience. I'm perfectly willing to see it culled to Kierkegaard and Rowan Williams, and leave it at that - though I'm sure there are good sources addressing the Christian scientist (note lower case) view on things - Kenneth R. Miller's Finding Darwin's God was good, but I read it a while ago. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 01:22, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Movements?

The article describes several creationist "movements" and lumped under this are various types of creationist belief. I think that these are not "movements" but examples of creationist beliefs. Therefore lumping all this together as movements is IMHO quite wrong.

Now I believe that there are clearly some "movements" in relation to this topic but these should be dealth with separately. These range from the people active in trying to persuade people that men and dinosaurs co-existed to those adopting the more subtle "creation science" technique which seeks to convice people that other scientific theories about the origin of the universe are wrong or that take the position that postulating "a creator" is just about as valid a piece of scientific theorising as was postulations about the atom hundreds of years before more concrete evidence for the atom was found. I would argue therefore that we should not label "belief systems" as "movements", and we should create a new sub section summarising the attempts made in recent years by activist groups in trying to counter scientific based naturalistic explanations.

What do other editors think?--Hauskalainen (talk) 18:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I would certainly assert that there exists an intelligent design movement, centred around the Discovery Institute (and subsidiary organisations) and a Young Earth Creationism/Creation Science movement (centred around Answers in Genesis, the Institute for Creation Research, the Creation Research Society, and a host of lesser institutions and organisations). Historically there has been a (generally OEC) creationist movement since the early 20th century (with organisations including the Anti-Evolution League of America and the Evolution Protest Movement). A belief system becomes a "movement" when it forms organisational structures to promote its beliefs -- both to the general public and/or in the political sphere. Various strands of creationism have done this, so it is entirely appropriate to identify them as "movements"(particularly when at least some of them have explicitly self-identified as such). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 05:55, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Or are these movements better described merely as a form of evangelism attached to a particular belief system? I guess what I am asking is "should these activist movements be listed under the appropriate forms of creationist belief or be listed separately?". I think it is wrong to list for example African forms of creation by deities as being "movements" if there is no active form of evangelism associated with these cultural belief systems. --Hauskalainen (talk) 07:09, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

No. These movements have as their purpose Christian apologetics defending, as well as evangelism promoting, these beliefs. And their focus is an individual belief (some form of creationism) that forms a part of a number of differing "belief systems" (e.g. YEC in Seventh Day Adventistism, much of conservative Evangelicalism and some/many?/most? Traditionalist Catholics, ID in other conservative Evangelicals, and some conservative Catholics). 'Creationism' is generally only taken to mean belief in a creation theology when that belief is sufficiently narrow and/or rigid as to deny science that threatens/contradicts some of those beliefs. That is not true of "African forms of creation by deities" (or any other non-Abrahamic religions except for Hindu creationism) AFAIK, so they are not relevant. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 09:43, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Non-"religious" creationism?

Hauskalainen states "One can have a creationists belief without being religious". I do not think that this is correct. I'm not sure if I think that it is worth belabouring the religious aspect of creationism in the first sentence of the lead, but I do not think that it is possible to have any of the "wide range of interpretations of beliefs that a supernatural force such as a deity intervenes, or has intervened, directly in the natural world" (my emphasis) -- without it being "religious". Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 11:53, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I am equally puzzled by the assertion. Presumably you have a source for this, Hauskalainen? Guettarda (talk) 12:11, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I guess it hangs how you define religion. But there are certainly peoples who have certain beliefs about things at various that could not yet be proven such as creationism, reincarnation or the belief that stress is the leading cause of stomach ulcers and depression. These stem as much from cultural norms as much as from religion. I may think there may be a God who may have created the world but that does not mean that I have to have personal adherance to that God or worship him or do acts to please him. The first part is deism and creationism but second aspect of that belief may not make me religious. I might accept that God exists just as I accept that my next door neighbor exists, but I do not worship or pay homage to my next door neighbor. The Ancient Romans inhabited a world of many Gods who mostly did not involve themselves in human matters and whom humans did not worship even though there may have been a certain deference to them. The Roman belief in deities did not really form a coherent religion. Maybe your own cultural norms tell you that religion is intricately bound to religion but I can assure you that that is a false belief. That they are often connected today in Western thought one cannot doubt, but they are not absolutely one and the same.--Hauskalainen (talk) 12:20, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I would consider any belief about "a supernatural force such as a deity" to be religious. I also believe your argument to be irredeemably muddled. Any belief in 'a God who created the world' (or in any other god) is a religious belief, whether you worship that God or not. But in actual fact, belief in a creator-god, without worship of it, is very rare (and quite possibly non-existent) in this day and age. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 12:36, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec)Creationism, as used here, describes a particular set of beliefs which derive from various religious teachings. So whether one's personal philosophies are "religious" or not is beside the point. These are teachings which derive from particular religious groups. That's the way creationism has always been described. Claims to the contrary need very strong sourcing. Guettarda (talk) 12:37, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec²)And no, it does not 'hang how you define [a] religion'. Any number of religious beliefs are not tied to any one religion. And I would certainly assert that any belief pertaining to a "god" or a "supernatural creator" of the universe is sufficiently substantial and core a belief that it amounts to a 'religious belief' rather than a mere superstition or similar. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 12:43, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Our fellow Wikipedians in the Religion article define religion as "an organized approach to human spirituality". The key here is that religion is "an organized approach". I know lots of people regard themselves as spiritual and believe in God and some form of creation but reject organized religion as being the only way to enlightenment and spirituality. Hence God and religion are interwined for those belonging to an organized religion, but there are many people out there who do not adhere to any organized approach to expressing or experiencing their connection to the universe to their fellow man and possibly to God. You could argue (and I suspect that you are one of them) that the fact that there are people seeking enlightment to God outside of an "organized faith" (religion) does not mean that they are not religious. My answer to that is that the English language has different words for expressing these things. Deism is one and Religion is another. They are not the same thing a all!

What part of "it does not 'hang how you define [a] religion'" did you fail to understand?

The definition at issue is "religious belief" NOT religion. Creationism IS a "religious belief". It is NOT, nor has anybody claimed it is, a "religion. Therefore what "the Religion article define religion as" is a COMPLETE non sequitor. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 17:49, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Religious belief: "Such a state may relate to: … 2 divine intervention in the universe and human life" I think the creation of the universe qualifies as such a "divine intervention". Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 17:59, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I am disturbed by the tone you are adopting which does not assume good faith.

Whether "religion" or "religious belief" is neither here nor there. You are asserting that belief in God is synonymous with religious belief. But as our friends who created the religious belief article point out, religious belief is associated "with a faith in a creed". The very word "religion" implies being tied or obligated to something. I can assure you that there are many people who consider themselves spiritual and who have not rejected the concept of their being a god or gods which may have created the universe and possibly life itself who do NOT put faith in any religious creed and are not tied to anything. In fact many of them spurn religion (and their creeds" as being a form of mind control. I accept that creationism MAY ORIGINATE from a religious belief and clearly in many cases it does. But it is NOT AXIOMATIC. Again you are equating "religious belief" with "theism". Theism is belief in God. Religious belief is one sinks faith in a creed and adheres to its principles. Clearly they are not the same thing.--Hauskalainen (talk) 21:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Hauskalainen: if you want me to assume good faith, then I would suggest that you stop putting words into my mouth:

1. "You are asserting that belief in God is synonymous with religious belief." I am not. I asserted that all beliefs in a God or gods are religious beliefs, not that all religious beliefs are beliefs in a God or gods.
2. "Again you are equating 'religious belief' with 'theism'." No I bloody well am not! I never made such an equation and I explicitly disavow and deny it.

Further, I would dispute you on your overly-narrow interpretation of the use of "creed" in the religious belief article. Many religions do not have formal creeds, and therefore their beliefs are not contained in such a formalised creed. This does not stop their beliefs being religious beliefs. It merely means that the underlying creeds may be informal, and often unwritten, ill-defined, and in some cases completely idiosyncratic. In fact creed mentions that whether Judaism has a creed is under dispute. Could that mean that Judaism's beliefs are not "religious beliefs"?

Creationism is the "mental state in which faith is placed in a [formal, informal or idiosyncratic, explicit or implicit, "statement of belief", taken in a wider meaning, per above] related to the supernatural … divine intervention in the universe" to create said universe. As such, Creationism is clearly and without ambiguity a "religious belief". Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 05:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

First of all I did not intend to put words into your mouth but I am trying to understand your argument and to understand why we differ about this. I am sorry if I have upset you. You clearly think that if I believe in God I must have a religious belief. To me a religious belief is all the things associated (in whole or to a greater or lesser extent) with a religion. Where we seem to differ is that you have implied that a peron who merely believes in God must have a belief that can be labeled as "religious". Here I disagree with you. Using the term "religious belief" in this context cannot be construed to be something vague and and only loosely connected with religion. I think that there are many people that believe in God who are not "religious" because that belief does not guide their actions. People with religious beliefs DO modify their behaviour as a result of their religion. The very word "religion" has its origins in "being tied" to something. But some people do believe in a God without being tied to anything. --Hauskalainen (talk) 00:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

1. I would suggest that such gross distortions of my actual statements do not help your 'understanding' of my arguments, and mean that you are in fact arguing against straw man versions of what I was in fact saying.
2. "You clearly" are not understanding my thinking. I do not argue that "if I believe in God I must have a religious belief ", but rather that to "believe in God" IS "a religious belief". Can you point to any concrete example where 'belief in God' (capitalised, therefore definitive article, therefore monotheistic) is not attached to some religious belief system? At a further extension, can you point to any concrete example where 'belief in any god' is not attached to some religious belief system?
3. I think your jumping straight from 'religious belief' to 'religion' is muddling the argument. Many (most?) religious beliefs aren't specific to a single religion, and their presence, absence, or particular form, in combination, creates a whole constellation of religions, denominations, sects and heresies. Insisting that the linkages of a specific belief to all of this be well-defined, before accepting that the belief is "religious", would appear to be unreasonable.
4. You are conflating the question of whether a belief is religious with the extent to which an individual is "religious". The two are only tenuously related. Any religion, and by extension any belief of that religion, will have adherents that run a range from devout to nominal. This does not make those beliefs non-religious. If it did, then no beliefs would be "religious", as it is highly unlikely that any religion has not had at least one only-nominal adherent.
5. I think you're wrong to claim that to be a "religious" belief a belief has to guide their actions. (i) As stated above, somebody may not have any particular strength in their beliefs, and so not act upon them (or believe, but lack the strength of will, self-awareness, etc, etc, to carry them out), and (ii) many religious beliefs are sufficiently peripheral or non-prescriptive as to require no specific actions. A Biblical literalist has the religious belief that Ashur was the son of Shem, and that both existed as a matter of historical fact. This belief does not however require any specific "behaviour" of the literalist.

I would conclude by stating that your arguments appear to all be on issues that are non-determinative to whether a belief is religious. [belatedly signed Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 02:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC) ]

Outside the United States - deleted chart

I deleted the chart (again) which purports to come the a New Scientist article and reinstated the link to the similar chart in the journal Science.

Firstly, I went to the chart posted at Commons. It purports to be the work of someone who is not the New Scientist article author. Secondly I have traced the orginal article at New Scientist http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13621-evolution-myths-it-doesnt-matter-if-people-do-not-understand-evolution.html and the chart does not appear there. The Science article has many more countries listed and is therefore more informative and indeed less misleading than the chart from Commons (because the Commons chart shows the US as more or less in line with a third of the countries listed whereas the Science article chart shows the US to be very much an outlier.

For these reasons the deletion and reinstatement of the other link better reflects a full knowledge of this subject which is in the public domain.--Hauskalainen (talk) 21:04, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

You found the wrong New Scientist article. The chart is here. I've put the link into the image description page. As far as I can tell, the New Scientist/Common chart gives a very similar impression to the Science chart - I'd suspect they come from the same source. I have no strong opinion, but I understand why some people like to have the image directly in the article. It's easier to see, more visually appealing, and we have no control over other sites, so the link may break. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:04, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

1. And I have restored it again, because you have not gained a WP:CONSENSUS for this disputed change.
2. I have also removed, again, the 83% figure. The source in fact contains a variety of overlapping summations of the data, particularly: 83% (well apart from the tabulation) & 66% (as part of the tabulation). It is confusing to include results, both individually and part of totals, in the same graph -- and this is decidedly non-standard practice. I would not however object to the 83% figure being mentioned in the article text. (Incidentally, is there any desire to have the 5% 'Unsure' divided up into its constituent 4% 'Evo + Creo, but not sure how' & 1% 'no opinion' parts?)
3. I personally prefer the light grey/dark grey colour scheme (to which there was no objections when the graph was originally discussed) over the more garish red/green. However, I will not object to the change if there is a consensus to make one.

Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 03:50, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

They ARE from the same source. The original link has the FULL data which shows the United States as second bottom from 30 countries data presented. The chart that has been added to the Wikipedia article makes it look that the U.S. is much less of an outlier. Hence it is less accurate than it could or should be. As for not having WP:CONSENSUS, I don't think you have achieved consensus for keeping the limited and distorted view of the data you want to preserve either. I would have no objection to the table being presented if it contained the full set of data from the source. The chart you want added in to the article has only 18 countries in it. If you want the chart in, then you should modify it so that it reflects the true reported position. Also you should still have the original reference and not an incorrect one.

As for the 83% figure in the bar chart it is totally accurate. The summations are not unfair summations. Are yoiu saying that they are? What the article is reporting is "what Americans believe" according to that survey. It is not confusing at all to include the answers to several questions. You want us to see only the "best fit" choices where people had to choose from several pre-determined options so that the answers added up to 100%. I do not agree with you that that is somehow "standard practice" and my presentation of a more complete picture is "non-standard practice! The "don't knows" were relatively insignificant and we do not lose much by not including or mentioning them.

As for the colours, my PC did not show one of the colours on the old listing. I see grey bars on a white background and did not see white bars on the white background (though they are visible if I use the mouse to select the area. The red and green are visible - that's why I changes the colours when I presented the more informative chart. --Hauskalainen (talk) 14:18, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I see that Hrafn has again reinserted the misleading and incomplete chart. I have deleted it again. Please lets try to get this sorted before restorting to a 3RR dispute.--Hauskalainen (talk) 14:38, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Hauskalainen:

1. "The original link" is in violation of WP:MOSLINKS#Link titles.
2. For important data such as this, it is better to have it explicitly in the article, rather than simply linked to.
3. "As for not having WP:CONSENSUS, I don't think you have achieved consensus for keeping the limited and distorted view of the data you want to preserve either." This is a STUPID argument. If we followed it then we'd be at the mercy of every editor wanting to change things, as the consensus-not-to-change would always be trying to play catch-up. Consensus first, then change. The alternative is chaos.
4. It does not matter that the "83% figure in the bar chart it is totally accurate" -- as its inclusion makes the bar-graph as a total inaccurate. It means that some of the 83% is counted twice, making the graph add up to well over 100%. This is both inaccurate & misleading.
5. I just took a look at the grey graph in 640x480 @256 colours (the lowest I could find a monitor capable of displaying) and the separation was perfectly clear. What display are you using? EGA?

Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 14:51, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and the WP:CONSENSUS for the existing 'Americans believe' graph can be found at Talk:Creationism/Archive 21#Creating a graph for section. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 15:00, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The grey/silver color rendering seems to be a problem with Internet Explorer on my machine (version 7). I can get it to render appropriately with Firefox so I have left the colors as grey and silver. I have moved the bar chart to the section on education as all the questions were related to the stance that should be taken on teaching. Also I have again put the bars into some sequence high to low and rendered the bars correctly to proportion correctly to the 100% line. This gives a better view overall.--Hauskalainen (talk) 15:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

The graph was originally ordered according to where the views lay on the evo-creo spectrum -- a far more informative ordering than "high to low". and NO you have not NOT "rendered the bars correctly to proportion correctly to the 100% line" as there is no explicit "100% line" (nor any solid convention that the high-value on charts has to be 100%) -- you have just cramped the results (something we explicitly moved away from in the original discussion). I will correct these botches as soon as I can do so without violating WP:3RR. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 16:01, 13 July 2009 (UTC)