Editing Template:Did you know nominations/Joseph Harmatz (section)

====Joseph Harmatz====
{{DYK nompage links|nompage=Joseph Harmatz|Joseph Harmatz}}
* ... that a plot to poison 12,000 [[Schutzstaffel|SS]] officers held as POWs after [[World War II]] led by '''[[Joseph Harmatz]]''' was part of a revenge effort "to kill six million Germans, one for every Jew slaughtered by the Germans"? <small>Source: [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/30/world/europe/joseph-harmatz-dead.html Joseph Harmatz, Who Led Jewish Plot to Kill Germans After World War II, Dies at 91] - "Investigators in Nuremberg, Germany, examined the hiding place where arsenic was found in 1946 in a bakery that supplied captured SS officers.... Led by 21-year-old Joseph Harmatz, a survivor of the Vilnius ghetto in Lithuania, the plotters sickened more than 2,200 German prisoners, inducing vomiting and other symptoms of cholera. Their weapons were 3,000 loaves of black bread, which had been painted with a mixture of arsenic and glue at a bakery that had been infiltrated by one of the group.... “Our ultimate intention was to kill six million Germans, one for every Jew slaughtered by the Germans,” Mr. Harmatz told The Observer of Britain in 1998. “Would the British and Americans ever have bombed Dresden if the Germans had not bombed Coventry? It was revenge, quite simply. Were we not entitled to our revenge, too?”</small>
** '''ALT1''':... that ...?  <small>Source: "You are strongly encouraged to quote the source text supporting each hook" (and [link], or briefly cite, the source)</small>
:* ''Reviewed'': [[Template:Did you know nominations/Wonut|Wonut]]
<small>Created by [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]). Self-nominated at 20:57, 21 October 2016 (UTC).</small>

:* I have an issue with "led". First, the article we have does not mention that. Second, the events are described in many more details in other sources and they do not collaborate the half-sentence from the current NYT article. The sources mention Lebke Distel (who actually got the job in bakery), Pinchas Ben-Tzur (who was one of 3 people putting the poison on the bread), Vitka Kempner (who was involved in getting the poison), but none of them are highlighted as "leader". Harmatz was "involved" but I cannot find any specifics on his actual role (other than roommate of Distel). The only thing that paints him as leader is his own interview in 1998. [[User:Renata3|Renata]] ([[User talk:Renata3|talk]]) 02:36, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
::*{{u|Renata3}}, you say "I have an issue with 'led'. First, the article we have does not mention that."{{parabr}}The title of the source used in this article (and for the DYK hook) from ''[[The New York Times]]'' is [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/30/world/europe/joseph-harmatz-dead.html "Joseph Harmatz, Who '''Led''' Jewish Plot to Kill Germans After World War II, Dies at 91"]. The article states "The second scheme was not a complete failure, however. '''Led by 21-year-old Joseph Harmatz''', a survivor of the Vilnius ghetto in Lithuania, the plotters sickened more than 2,200 German prisoners, inducing vomiting and other symptoms of cholera." There's plenty of room to add further details, but the statement is made based on a rather clear statement in a rather reliable source. The article [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2016/09/30/joseph-harmatz-jewish-avenger--obituary/ "Joseph Harmatz, Jewish 'Avenger' – obituary"] in ''[[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]]'' describes him as "...'''the chief planner of a more ambitious plot''', aimed at Stalag 13, a detention centre for former SS men near Nuremberg." [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-obit-jewish-avenger-joseph-harmatz-20160926-story.html "Joseph Harmatz, part of Jewish 'Avengers', dead at 91"] in the ''[[Chicago Tribune]]'' states that "It came on Apr. 13, 1946, when three members spent two hours coating some 3,000 loaves of bread with arsenic, divided into four portions. The goal was to kill 12,000 SS personnel, and '''Harmatz oversaw the operation from outside the bakery.'''"{{parabr}}I reviewed other articles, both in Wikipedia and outside it, and I'm not sure where you see information that conflicts with the claim of his role as leader; one can have led the plot without having been the one who obtained the poison or added it to the bread. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 03:25, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
:::*You are citing all recent obituaries. Modern press, unfortunately, is notorious for [[churnalism]], little-to-zero fact-checking, and chasing clicks with sultry headlines. [https://books.google.com/books?id=XU7XAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT251&dq=arsenic+plot+nazi&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikn_jc_-_PAhUS1iYKHecFB5MQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=Harmatz&f=false ''The Avengers: A Jewish War Story''], a whole book dedicated to Nakam, mentions Harmatz a grand total of 2 times. I spent almost an hour searching for non-journalist sources to back up "leader" and came up empty. If he was really the leader, shouldn't it be extra easy to verify? Shouldn't he be mentioned more often in works about the event (and not works about him)? [[User:Renata3|Renata]] ([[User talk:Renata3|talk]]) 03:41, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
::::*{{u|Renata3}}, to address your concerns above:{{parabr}}"Churnalism, little-to-zero fact-checking, and chasing clicks with sultry headlines"? You're talking about ''[[The New York Times]]'', ''[[Chicago Tribune]]'' and ''[[The Daily Telegraph|The Telegraph]]'', which rank among the most reliable of reliable sources.{{parabr}}"You are citing all recent obituaries"?!? The article already provides sources from 1998 and 2008, and there's [http://www.newsweek.com/final-mission-159517 "A Final Mission"] from ''[[Newsweek]]'' in 2000 -- about the mission itself -- which states that "After spending several months in the bakery, Lebke told Joseph Harmatz, 'If you want to go ahead with the mission, fine. But do it soon.' Living in Germany, working with the enemy, leading this phony life--it was destroying him. Harmatz announced the date: Saturday, April 13, 1946."{{parabr}}"If he was really the leader, shouldn't it be extra easy to verify?" I've provided a half-dozen strong reliable and verifiable sources covering almost two decades that each make that exact claim that Harmatz was the leader of the plot.{{parabr}}I'm not sure what more I could provide here to back up the rather explicit claim in both the article and the hook and I'm mot sure what change to the hook would be satisfactory to you under these circumstances, where you're denying the validity of an overwhelming array of solid references. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 04:28, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
:::::*Yes, I am dealing with vague, inaccurate, misleading, or out-right wrong churnalists all the time. Anyway, I am ok with "involved", not ok with "led" as being a leader of smth is a strong claim and that he is not mentioned in a book dedicated to the group is a HUGE red flag. Passing mentions in newspaper articles are not convincing me. [[User:Renata3|Renata]] ([[User talk:Renata3|talk]]) 05:19, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

*HELP!?!? Can an uninvolved editor help with this nomination? I'm dealing here with a reviewer who is characterizing six different sources from major international reliable and verifiable sources, all of which characterize Harmatz as leader, as "Passing mentions in newspaper articles" from "vague, inaccurate, misleading, or out-right wrong churnalists". There are six separate sources, provided in the article and as part of this discussion that all explicitly describe Harmatz as the leader of the plot to poison thousands of SS POWs. To wave off an article from ''[[The New York Times]]'' with the title [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/30/world/europe/joseph-harmatz-dead.html "Joseph Harmatz, Who '''Led''' Jewish Plot to Kill Germans After World War II, Dies at 91"] -- that states "The second scheme was not a complete failure, however. '''Led by 21-year-old Joseph Harmatz''', a survivor of the Vilnius ghetto in Lithuania, the plotters sickened more than 2,200 German prisoners, inducing vomiting and other symptoms of cholera." -- and misrepresenting this as a "passing mention" by a "churnalist" is patently wrong. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 15:24, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
{{od}}*[[File:Symbol question.svg|16px]] I find it hard to believe that {{u|Renata3}} is questioning a fact that made it into ''[[The New York Times]]'', ''[[The Guardian]]'', and ''[[Associated Press]]''. Most Wikipedia editors would be on Cloud 9 if they found even one of these [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] to verify their articles. The hook fact is clearly verified by these sources:
:*The NY Times says: "The second scheme was not a complete failure, however. Led by 21-year-old Joseph Harmatz, a survivor of the Vilnius ghetto in Lithuania, the plotters sickened more than 2,200 German prisoners, inducing vomiting and other symptoms of cholera."
:*The AP says: "Harmatz oversaw the operation from outside the bakery"
:*JWeekly says: "Harmatz took over the Din leadership. ... One Saturday night in April 1945, members of Din broke into the Stalag 13 camp at Nuremberg and, with an artist's brush, Harmatz painted 3,000 loaves of black bread with poison."
:*Here is a full review: New enough, long enough, neutrally written, well referenced, no close paraphrasing seen. QPQ done. However, I feel that the hook is too heavy with facts, and the quote is referring to the goal of the [[Nakam]] organization. I suggest tightening the hook to focus on Harmatz and his plan. [[User:Yoninah|Yoninah]] ([[User talk:Yoninah|talk]]) 17:18, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
*Renata3's got it backwards. Within RS's, recent sources with all the evidence in are preferable to those closer in time to the event. ALT0's "led" is appropriate. '''[[User:EEng#s|<span style="color:red;">E</span>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<span style="color:blue;">Eng</span>]]''' 17:55, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Alansohn}} This nomination seems to have stalled. Would you like to suggest another hook as per Yoninah's request. [[User:Cwmhiraeth|Cwmhiraeth]] ([[User talk:Cwmhiraeth|talk]]) 06:20, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
::::{{u|Cwmhiraeth}}, I hadn't realized that this was still an issue. Give me a day or two to work on an alternative. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 13:56, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
:::::After lengthy consideration, I still prefer the original hook. Neither half of the hook on its own -- the plot to kill 12,000 SS officers or an overall goal to avenge the 6 million of The Holocaust -- stands without the other. Unless there is an underlying issue with the original hook, I would ask for it to be approved as is. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 19:03, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
::::::[[User:Yoninah|Yoninah]], it appears your suggestion is not being taken. Can you please continue your review in that light? Thanks. [[User:BlueMoonset|BlueMoonset]] ([[User talk:BlueMoonset|talk]]) 21:59, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
:::::::*[[File:Symbol question.svg|16px]] OK. The hook is verified and cited inline. But it's 201 characters. Can you trim it? [[User:Yoninah|Yoninah]] ([[User talk:Yoninah|talk]]) 23:09, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
::::::::*{{u|Yoninah}}, I've tweaked it below the limit. [[User:Alansohn|Alansohn]] ([[User talk:Alansohn|talk]]) 23:33, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
:::::::::*[[File:Symbol confirmed.svg|16px]] Thank you. I added a link for "SS". Rest of review above. Good to go. [[User:Yoninah|Yoninah]] ([[User talk:Yoninah|talk]]) 23:41, 12 December 2016 (UTC)</div></noinclude><!--Please do not write below this line or remove this line. Place comments above this line.-->