Editing User talk:Fergananim
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:::: That's basically the entire principle of [[WP:USEENGLISH]]. Are the Irish names more common in the bulk of reliable, English-language sources? <span style="color:#004225;">—</span> [[User:Jon C.|<span style="color:#004225;">Jon C.</span>]][[User_talk:Jon C.|<sup><b><span style="color:#F28500;">ॐ</span></b></sup>]] 16:41, 27 June 2018 (UTC) |
:::: That's basically the entire principle of [[WP:USEENGLISH]]. Are the Irish names more common in the bulk of reliable, English-language sources? <span style="color:#004225;">—</span> [[User:Jon C.|<span style="color:#004225;">Jon C.</span>]][[User_talk:Jon C.|<sup><b><span style="color:#F28500;">ॐ</span></b></sup>]] 16:41, 27 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:Also you have been warned several times to stop moving pages and renaming things without sources. Most of your moves are not supported by the sources in the article and you are moving them based purely on your own understanding. Stop doing so. If you say that someone's name is incorrect you MUST provide a source for the new name as the original names on Wikipedia are the ones supported by the sources and not your new names. Since you have been warned multiple times on this consider this your final warning. The next time you move a page, or rename something to your understanding of the name without a source you will be blocked from editing. [[User:Canterbury Tail|<b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b>]] [[User talk:Canterbury Tail|<i style="color: Blue;">talk</i>]] 14:27, 28 June 2018 (UTC) |
:Also you have been warned several times to stop moving pages and renaming things without sources. Most of your moves are not supported by the sources in the article and you are moving them based purely on your own understanding. Stop doing so. If you say that someone's name is incorrect you MUST provide a source for the new name as the original names on Wikipedia are the ones supported by the sources and not your new names. Since you have been warned multiple times on this consider this your final warning. The next time you move a page, or rename something to your understanding of the name without a source you will be blocked from editing. [[User:Canterbury Tail|<b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b>]] [[User talk:Canterbury Tail|<i style="color: Blue;">talk</i>]] 14:27, 28 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:I have been at times remiss in demonstrating the basis of their names, but I have made an effort. I draw your attention to [[Seán mac an Iarla a Búrc]], where I have added Gaelic sources concerning him which, when noted '''thus''', validate the form of name. Likewise moving the likes of [[Íomhaor mac Tighearnán Mág Tighearnán]] (where I removed the Anglocentric numeric and corrected the incorrect DEFAULSORT surname) is based on Gaelic practise which is validated by documents cited or linked within the article. Gaelic texts and their forms '''are''' primary because that was the world they lived in and they plainly show those were the naming-terms used. Insisting on English-language forms as the only valid forms is inappropriate; at best, an Anglicised form of the name can be given, but certainly not insisted upon. Now when we move into the 17th and 18th centuries there IS a valid basis as more and more of the people concerned were bilingual in Gaeilge and English, and that needs some consideration. Granted, I have not always made these points plain - partly because I consider them so obviously demonstratble either in the text or its sources; or because there are so many such errors to fix it overwhelms me. I will make an effort but I must impress upon you NONE of these changes are either arbitrary or even my personal whim. '''All have a basis'''. They are misunderstood because Anglicised forms are privileged and because plainly so few other editors know much about them. So there is lots of room for confusion. So, in mitigation, please list me such articles and I will do my best to demonstrate the basis, case by case. [[User:Fergananim|Fergananim]] ([[User talk:Fergananim#top|talk]]) 13:20, 29 June 2018 (UTC) |
:I have been at times remiss in demonstrating the basis of their names, but I have made an effort. I draw your attention to [[Seán mac an Iarla a Búrc]], where I have added Gaelic sources concerning him which, when noted '''thus''', validate the form of name. Likewise moving the likes of [[Íomhaor mac Tighearnán Mág Tighearnán]] (where I removed the Anglocentric numeric and corrected the incorrect DEFAULSORT surname) is based on Gaelic practise which is validated by documents cited or linked within the article. Gaelic texts and their forms '''are''' primary because that was the world they lived in and they plainly show those were the naming-terms used. Insisting on English-language forms as the only valid forms is inappropriate; at best, an Anglicised form of the name can be given, but certainly not insisted upon. Now when we move into the 17th and 18th centuries there IS a valid basis as more and more of the people concerned were bilingual in Gaeilge and English, and that needs some consideration. Granted, I have not always made these points plain - partly because I consider them so obviously demonstratble either in the text or its sources; or because there are so many such errors to fix it overwhelms me. I will make an effort but I must impress upon you NONE of these changes are either arbitrary or even my personal whim. '''All have a basis'''. They are misunderstood because Anglicised forms are privileged and because plainly so few other editors know much about them. So there is lots of room for confusion. So, in mitigation, please list me such articles and I will do my best to demonstrate the basis, case by case. [[User:Fergananim|Fergananim]] ([[User talk:Fergananim#top|talk]]) 13:20, 29 June 2018 (UTC) |
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::Thank you for responding, much appreciated. I appreciate that a lot of these people are really without anglicised names and that is fair. At the end of the day however this is the English language Wikipedia so their most commonly used name, in English language sources, takes precedent over any proper other form. If English language sources use a non-anglicised name primarily, then that's obviously fine, but if they use a different form then we need to use that no matter what the Irish source may say. (See [[WP:IMOS]] for the policies on this.) The main reason for me posting these messages is that many of the articles you have moved are sourced to the original article names, and all sources listed in the article use that form. Moving an article to another name when every source in the article states it to be something else is not something that can be supported. If you can provide updated sources then that's fine, but remember Wikipedia is based on [[Wp:Verifiability]] not truth. If the sources all state one form of name and you move it to another form without any sources to support it, under Wikipedia's policies it will be moved back no matter if you think it's obvious or not. We have to go by the sources. I hope you can appreciate this. [[User:Canterbury Tail|<b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b>]] [[User talk:Canterbury Tail|<i style="color: Blue;">talk</i>]] 13:36, 29 June 2018 (UTC) |
::Thank you for responding, much appreciated. I appreciate that a lot of these people are really without anglicised names and that is fair. At the end of the day however this is the English language Wikipedia so their most commonly used name, in English language sources, takes precedent over any proper other form. If English language sources use a non-anglicised name primarily, then that's obviously fine, but if they use a different form then we need to use that no matter what the Irish source may say. (See [[WP:IMOS]] for the policies on this.) The main reason for me posting these messages is that many of the articles you have moved are sourced to the original article names, and all sources listed in the article use that form. Moving an article to another name when every source in the article states it to be something else is not something that can be supported. If you can provide updated sources then that's fine, but remember Wikipedia is based on [[Wp:Verifiability]] not truth. If the sources all state one form of name and you move it to another form without any sources to support it, under Wikipedia's policies it will be moved back no matter if you think it's obvious or not. We have to go by the sources. I hope you can appreciate this. [[User:Canterbury Tail|<b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b>]] [[User talk:Canterbury Tail|<i style="color: Blue;">talk</i>]] 13:36, 29 June 2018 (UTC) |
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@[[User talk:Fergananim#top|talk]] Miler Magrath was an Archbishop of the C of E (inter alia), he clearly spoke English and Gaelic, and he changed his name to MAGRATH to distinguish it from the catholic McGRATH, and was buried under the coat of arms he designed for MAGRATH. Changing it to a gaelic name he never had is not fixing anglicizations, it's historically wrong. He was NEVER a Mac Graith, he was a McGrath and a Magrath, period. Your edits are wrong. I appreciate the desire to reclaim the Irish Gaelic but you cannot rename a man who lived for nearly 100 years and died under the name MILER MAGRATH. I see this is common by you and others, but unless you have a historic source confirming he used the Gaelic version I think the version he had printed on his own tomb is his name and you have no right to re-name him 400 years later. Please undo or provide some justification, because Miler's tomb is on wikipedia and I have ample justification to undo your edit. Apologies for poor wikipedia talk skills, but those *should* be no match for just making shit up that was never true when the man lived and died. [[User:TorontoGavin|TorontoGavin]] ([[User talk:TorontoGavin|talk]]) 21:13, 14 December 2021 (UTC) |
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== Bulk adding of [[:Category:Gaels]] is inappropriate == |
== Bulk adding of [[:Category:Gaels]] is inappropriate == |