Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard: Difference between revisions

Welcome — post issues of interest to administrators.

For urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems, use Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. If you are new, try the Wikipedia:Teahouse instead. Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead use Wikipedia:Requests for oversight. For administrative backlogs add {{Admin backlog}} to the backlogged page; post here only if urgent. Do not post requests for page protection, deletion requests, or block requests here. Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. If opening a close appeal, use {{RfC closure review}} When you start a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page. Pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:AN-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Sections inactive for over seven days are archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.(archives, search) Start a new discussion

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Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Wikipedia discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).

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There is no fixed length for a formal request for comment (RfC). Typically 7 days is a minimum, and after 30 days the discussion is ripe for closure. The best way to tell is when there is little or no activity in the discussion, or further activity is unlikely to change its result.

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Please append {{Doing}} to the discussion's entry you are closing so that no one duplicates your effort. When finished, replace it with {{Close}} or {{Done}} and an optional note, and consider sending a {{Ping}} to the editor who placed the request. Where a formal closure is not needed, reply with {{Not done}}. After addressing a request, please mark the {{Initiated}} template with |done=yes. ClueBot III will automatically archive requests marked with {{Already done}}, {{Close}}, {{Done}} {{Not done}}, and {{Resolved}}.

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Administrative discussions

ANI thread concerning Yasuke

(Initiated 50 days ago on 2 July 2024) Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1162 § Talk: Yasuke has on-going issues has continued to grow, including significant portions of content discussion (especially since Talk:Yasuke was ec-protected) and accusations of BLP violations, among other problems. Could probably be handled one sub-discussion at a time. --JBL (talk) 17:50, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Requests for comment

Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_382#Reliability_of_GB_News_as_a_source_for_citations

(Initiated 767 days ago on 16 July 2022) Requesting formal closure due to current discussions over the reliability of the subject. CNC (talk) 16:55, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@CommunityNotesContributor: - it doesn't look like this was ever a formal RfC, and I'm not really a fan of taking a 2 year old discussion to show the current consensus, given the number of procedural arguements within, and given that discussion is archived as well, I'm extra tempted not to change it (especially as I would be leaning towards a no consensus close on that discussion based on the points raised). Is a fresh RfC a better option here, given the time elapsed and more research into their reliability since then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mdann52 (talk • contribs) 18:56, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@CommunityNotesContributor:  Not done Closures are intended to assess current consensus, not consensus from two years ago in an archived thread. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:47, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for both your replies, it's interesting to hear the assessment of no consensus from that discussion given previous/current interpretation of that discussion. It's looks like another RfC is needed after all then. CNC (talk) 12:03, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

That's not an assesment of no consensus, that seems more like an assesment of no assesment. --Licks-rocks (talk) 10:11, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

RFA2024, Phase II discussions

Hi! Closers are requested for the following three discussion:

• (Initiated 111 days ago on 2 May 2024) Administrator recall
• (Initiated 109 days ago on 5 May 2024) Designated RfA monitors
• (Initiated 108 days ago on 5 May 2024) Reminder of civility norms at RfA

Many thanks in advance! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:27, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... reminder of civility norms. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done reminder of civility norms. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

If re-requesting closure at WP:AN isn't necessary, then how about different various closers for cerain section(s)? I don't mind one or two closers for one part or another or more. --George Ho (talk) 17:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

During Phase I of RFA2024, we had ended up having multiple closers for different RFCs, even the non-obvious ones. I think different people closing subparts of this should be acceptable Soni (talk) 09:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Bumping this as an important discussion very much in need of and very much overdue for a formal closure. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:40, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... designated RfA monitors (at least in part). voorts (talk/contributions) 16:40, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done designated RfA monitors. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

For recall, @Sirdog: had attempted a close of one section, and then self-reverted. Just in case a future closer finds this helpful. Soni (talk) 07:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the ping. For what it's worth, I think that close was an accurate assessment of that single section's consensus, so hopefully I make someone's day easier down the line. Happy to answer questions from any editor about it. —Sirdog (talk) 07:38, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I also think closing some sections at a time is pretty acceptable, especially given we have only been waiting 2+ months for them. I also have strong opinions on 'involved experienced editors' narrowing down a closer's scope just because they speak strongly enough on how they think it should be closed. But I am Capital-I involved too, so shall wait until someone takes these up. Soni (talk) 08:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I tend to agree. Not many people agreed with the concerns expressed on article talk about closing section by section. If a closer can't find consensus because the discussion is FUBAR, they can make that determination. voorts (talk/contributions) 12:50, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 444#RFC: The Telegraph on trans issues

(Initiated 80 days ago on 3 June 2024) Initial close has been overturned at review. A new close is required. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:36, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Gaza genocide#RfC on the inclusion on the BU Today article in the lede

(Initiated 61 days ago on 22 June 2024) nableezy - 17:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Titles of European monarchs

(Initiated 60 days ago on 22 June 2024) - I thank the Wikipedia community for being so willing to discuss this topic very extensively. Because 30 days have passed and requested moves in this topic area are already being opened (For reference, a diff of most recent edit to the conversation in question), I would encourage an uninvolved editor to determine if this discussion is ready for closure. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

(Also, apologies if I have done something incorrectly. This is my first time filing such a request.) AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

There is ongoing discussion there as to whether a closer for that discussion is necessary or desirable. I would suggest to wait and see how that plays out.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

This is dragging on ad nauseam. I suggest an admin closes this, possibly with the conclusion that there is no consensus to change. PatGallacher (talk) 17:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. Also a discussion at Wikipedia:Discussions for discussion#Some holistic solution is needed to closing numerous move requests for names of royals, but that dates back to April. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Anti-Defamation League#RfC: Wikipedia reliability section

(Initiated 52 days ago on 30 June 2024) - Note: Part of the article and talk page are considered to be a contentious topic, including this RfC. --Super Goku V (talk) 10:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 447#Reliability_of_Thomas_Lockley

(Initiated 50 days ago on 2 July 2024) - The original topic (Lockley's book, "African Samurai: The True Story of Yasuke, a Legendary Black Warrior in Feudal Japan") has not been the focus of discussion since the first few days of the RFC when it seemed to reach a concensus. The book in question is no longer cited by the Yasuke page and has been replaced by several other sources of higher quality. Since then the subject of the RSN has shifted to an extension of Talk:Yasuke and has seen many SPA one post accounts hijack the discussion on the source to commit BLP violations towards Thomas Lockley almost exclusively citing Twitter. Given that the general discussion that was occuring has shifted back to [Talk:Yasuke] as well as the continued uptick in SPA's committing NOTHERE and BLP violations on the RSN, as well as the source in question is no longer being used - I think closure is reasonable. Relm (talk) 20:17, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done This discussion was archived by consensus. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:59, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Hermann_Göring#Rfc_for_Herman_Göring's_Lede_Image_(2024)

(Initiated 49 days ago on 4 July 2024) Discussion is ready to be closed. Nemov (talk) 01:09, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity#Nikola_Tesla_birthplace_,_review_after_10_years

(Initiated 47 days ago on 5 July 2024) This is a contentious issue, so I would like to ask for an uninvolved editor to properly close. Please have consideration to each argument and provide an explanation how each argument and source was considered. People have strong opinions on this issue so please take consideration if their statements and claims are accompanied by quotes from sources and whether WP guidelines are followed. We need to resolve this question based on sources and not opinions, since it was discussed multiple times over the years. Trimpops2 (talk) 23:46, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The present text in the article is ambiguous. The present sentence within the Military Frontier, in the Austrian Empire (present-day Croatia) can be interpreted in two ways, as can be seen from the discussion. One group of editors interpret this as "although today in Croatia, Tesla's birthplace was not related to Kingdom of Croatia at the time of his birth in the 19th century" and other group of editors are claiming that "at that time the area was a part of "Kingdom of Croatia". I hope that end consensus will resolve that ambiguity. Whatever the consensus will be, let's not have ambiguous text. The article should provide a clear answer to that question. Trimpops2 (talk) 16:16, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done Trimpops2 ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:45, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

This closure is terrible. There's no explanation on how the consensus was determined. 93.142.80.133 (talk) 16:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:La France Insoumise#RfC: How should the political position of La France Insoumise be described?

(Initiated 45 days ago on 7 July 2024) Discussion has already died down and the 30 days have elapsed. Uninvolved closure is requested. Thanks a lot! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 21:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Chaotic Enby I was reviewing this for a close, but I wonder if reopening the RFC and reducing the number of options would help find a consensus. It seems like a consensus could be found between options A or D. Nemov (talk) 12:35, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

That could definitely work! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 12:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2024 United Kingdom general election#RfC: Inclusion of parties in the Infobox

(Initiated 45 days ago on 8 July 2024). Ready for closing, last !vote was 12 July by looks of it. CNC (talk) 16:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Proposal to revise CSD R3

(Initiated 43 days ago on 9 July 2024) Poster withdrew the RfC but due to the language used, I think a summary by an WP:UNINVOLVED editor would be preferable. Nickps (talk) 20:52, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done no need for such a close ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:06, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Gaza_Health_Ministry_qualifier

(Initiated 37 days ago on 15 July 2024) -sche (talk) 15:19, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

There have been only 5 !votes since end July (out of 50+) so this could be closed now. Selfstudier (talk) 10:23, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Benevolent_dictatorship#Should_this_page_contain_examples?_#2

(Initiated 36 days ago on 17 July 2024) Any brave soul willing to close this? The participants fall about 50-50 on both sides (across both RfCs too), and views are entrenched. Banedon (talk) 05:17, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#RfC: Residence in the infobox

(Initiated 34 days ago on 18 July 2024) Not complicated, relatively little discussion, not a particularly important issue. But, in my opinion, needs uninvolved closure because the small numerical majority has weaker arguments. And no other uninvolved has stepped forward. Should take maybe 30 minutes of someone's time. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:14, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Socialist Alliance (Australia)#RFC - Is Marxism at times considered an ideology and if so, does it fall within Socialist Alliance's ideology?

(Initiated 33 days ago on 20 July 2024) RFC tax has expired and last comment was 5 days ago. TarnishedPath^talk 04:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Does_the_community_still_want_moved_pages_to_be_unreviewed

(Initiated 32 days ago on 21 July 2024)Requesting a formal closure, initiated a while back, last comment 11 days ago. Sohom (talk) 03:26, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done voorts (talk/contributions) 03:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Reliability of Al Jazeera

(Initiated 4 days ago on 17 August 2024) This is a WP:SNOW and can be closed by a independent closer. Note: there are two sections to the RFC, Reliability of Al Jazeera - Arab-Israeli conflict and Reliability of Al Jazeera - General topics. Both sections are WP:SNOW. TarnishedPath^talk 08:38, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• Just a note, the second section is snowing harder than the first one. The second section is unanimous based on the time of this comment. starship.paint (RUN) 08:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
• Part 2 of the RFC has been closed. Thanks to ProcrastinatingReader. TarnishedPath^talk 00:34, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
•  Done by ProcrastinatingReader and Hobit. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:42, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#RfC: enacting C4 (unused maintenance categories)

(Initiated 28 days ago on 25 July 2024) HouseBlaster (talk · he/they) 02:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... voorts (talk/contributions) 02:39, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done voorts (talk/contributions) 02:53, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Deletion discussions

XFD backlog

V	May	Jun	Jul	Aug	Total
CfD	0	0	0	41	41
TfD	0	0	1	3	4
MfD	0	0	1	2	3
FfD	0	0	0	0	0
RfD	0	0	6	50	56
AfD	0	0	0	1	1

Other types of closing requests

Talk:There was no such thing as Palestinians#Merge to Golda Meir?

(Initiated 266 days ago on 29 November 2023) Discussion started 29 November 2023. Last comment 25 July 2024. TarnishedPath^talk 00:34, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2024 United States presidential election/Archive 10#What should the criteria of inclusion be for the state infobox?

(Initiated 100 days ago on 14 May 2024) Requesting formal closure on this archived discussion from three months ago due to a discussion on a sub-page of the main article. There is a claim that since it was never closed by an uninvolved party that it lacks consensus. As I have since been involved in a related discussion, I would not count as uninvolved under the criteria. Note: The article and talk page are considered to be a contentious topic. --Super Goku V (talk) 02:30, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Twitter_under_Elon_Musk#Requested_move_24_May_2024

(Initiated 89 days ago on 24 May 2024) Originally closed 3 June 2024, relisted following move review on 17 June 2024 (34 days ago). Last comment was only 2 days ago, but comments have been trickling in pretty slowly for weeks. Likely requires a decently experienced closer. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 01:54, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Discussion on this matter has essentially been ongoing since May 17, 2024, when Musk announced that the URL was officially changed from twitter.com to x.com. – wbm1058 (talk) 00:06, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

No, it's worse than that. Since Twitter was rebranded to X on July 23, 2023:

• Talk:Twitter/Archive 7#Requested move 24 July 2023
• Talk:Twitter under Elon Musk/Archive 1#Requested move 24 July 2023
• Talk:Twitter/Archive 7#(closed) Requested move 31 July 2023
• Talk:Twitter/Archive 7#Requested move 30 August 2023
• Talk:List of most-followed Twitter accounts#Requested move 14 August 2024 – just closed within the past day.

Clearly the discussions will continue virtually nonstop until Wikipedia finally kills the bird. A lot of moving parts here, though; that complicates the matter.

 Doing... I've put in too many hours on this to stop now, but it will be many more hours before I have a close, if not longer. – wbm1058 (talk) 02:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive 194#Notifying_Wikiprojects_and_WP:CANVASS

(Initiated 86 days ago on 28 May 2024) Latest comment: 3 days ago, 79 comments, 37 people in discussion. Closing statement may be helpful for future discussions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

 Doing...— Frostly (talk) 22:35, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

@Frostly Are you still planning on doing this? Soni (talk) 16:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Soni, yes - have drafted close and will post by the end of today. Thanks! — Frostly (talk) 17:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I wanted to note that this is taking slightly longer than expected, but it is at the top of my priority and will be completed soon. — Frostly (talk) 05:14, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

@Frostly Just checking, would you like someone else to help with this? Soni (talk) 07:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

@Frostly: also checking in. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi Voorts and Soni, thanks for the pings! I've unfortunately been in the hospital for the past week but am now feeling better. I apologize for the long delay in putting out the close and appreciate your messages! Best, — Frostly (talk) 03:59, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 13:32, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:You Like It Darker#Proposed merge of Finn (short story) into You Like It Darker

(Initiated 84 days ago on 30 May 2024) Contentious merge discussion requiring uninvolved closer. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2024 Nuseirat_rescue operation#Proposed_merge_of_Nuseirat_refugee_camp_massacre_into_2024_Nuseirat_rescue_operation

(Initiated 74 days ago on 8 June 2024) Since much of the discussion centers on the title of the article rather than its content, the closer should also take into account the requested move immediately below on the talk page. Smyth (talk) 15:17, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

If the closer finds "no consensus", I have proposed this route in which a discussion on merger and RM can happen simultaneously to give clearer consensus.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of common misconceptions#Split proposal

(Initiated 45 days ago on 8 July 2024) – Editors would feel more comfortable if an uninvolved closer provided a clear statement about whether a consensus to WP:SPLIT exists, and (if so) whether to split this list into two or three lists. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 July#Gaza genocide

(Initiated 30 days ago on 22 July 2024) – please close this fairly long-running move review. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 20:24, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2024_South_Korean_doctors'_strike#Requested_move_4_August_2024

(Initiated 17 days ago on 4 August 2024) Discussion started 4 August 2024. Last comment 8 August 2024. Except one editor who started edit in July 2024, others support move. Y-S.Ko (talk) 10:45, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done wbm1058 (talk) 13:46, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Al-Tabaeen_school_attack#Requested_move_10_August_2024

(Initiated 11 days ago on 10 August 2024) - I believe consensus is relatively clear, but given the contentious overarching topic I also believe an uninvolved closer would be appreciated. Thanks in advance! Smallangryplanet (talk) 19:05, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Pages recently put under extended-confirmed protection

Report

Pages recently put under extended confirmed protection (41 out of 8285 total) () WATCH Page Protected Expiry Type Summary Admin Basem Al-Shayeb 2024-08-22 02:14 2024-09-05 02:14 edit,move Edit warring / content dispute Daniel Case Ian Anderson (soccer) 2024-08-21 21:20 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ian Anderson (soccer) (3rd nomination) RL0919 Emily A. Holmes 2024-08-21 21:10 2025-02-21 21:10 edit,move Contentious topics enforcement for WP:CT/BLP; requested at WP:RfPP Daniel Quinlan Korenevo, Korenevsky District, Kursk Oblast 2024-08-21 20:27 2025-08-21 20:27 edit,move WP:GS/RUSUKR ToBeFree Template:Fdate 2024-08-21 18:00 indefinite edit,move High-risk template or module: 2802 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II Palestinian suicide terrorism 2024-08-21 17:11 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement ScottishFinnishRadish Draft:Rica Arnejo 2024-08-21 16:28 indefinite create Sock target Pppery Draft:Dsquares 2024-08-21 12:08 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated BusterD Pokkiri 2024-08-21 11:53 indefinite move Persistent block evasion Bishonen Draft:Kedarkheda 2024-08-21 03:06 2024-08-28 03:06 move Move warring Johnuniq Israeli support for Hamas 2024-08-21 02:56 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction Johnuniq Pokrovsk, Ukraine 2024-08-20 19:48 indefinite edit,move Community sanctions enforcement: per RFPP and WP:RUSUKR Daniel Case Michael Lisovetsky 2024-08-20 18:38 indefinite create Re-salt Pppery Template:WP Athletics 2024-08-20 18:00 indefinite edit,move High-risk template or module: 3616 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II Dil Ko Tumse Pyaar Hua 2024-08-20 13:48 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated; requested at WP:RfPP Isabelle Belato Udukai 2024-08-20 11:46 2024-09-20 11:46 edit,move repeated hijacking to be an advertisement for something different than the original topic Bearcat Operation Hiram 2024-08-20 10:55 indefinite edit,move Arbitration enforcement ScottishFinnishRadish History of the chair 2024-08-20 09:21 2025-02-20 09:21 edit,move Persistent sockpuppetry Lectonar Jhanak 2024-08-20 06:14 indefinite move Addition of unsourced or poorly sourced content: please discuss on article talk Johnuniq South India 2024-08-20 04:27 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: WP:CT/IPA Johnuniq Israeli blockade of aid delivery to the Gaza Strip 2024-08-20 01:24 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case August 2024 Deir el-Balah attacks 2024-08-20 01:19 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction: per RFPP and ARBPIA Daniel Case Third Battle of Khan Yunis 2024-08-20 01:11 indefinite edit,move Daniel Case Mike Lynch (businessman) 2024-08-20 00:59 indefinite edit,move Violations of the biographies of living persons policy: per RFPP Daniel Case Wikipedia talk:Administrators' noticeboard/Administrators' noticeboard/12 2024-08-20 00:54 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated TheresNoTime Nikki Hiltz 2024-08-19 22:59 indefinite move Misgendering; resumed after prior protection period Firefangledfeathers Template:FoP-USonly 2024-08-19 18:00 indefinite edit,move High-risk template or module: 2507 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II Harardhere 2024-08-19 17:22 2026-08-19 17:22 edit Persistent disruptive editing: Regular semi-protection ineffective, persistent block evasion and additions of poorly sourced material. Yamaguchi先生 Knafeh 2024-08-19 03:58 indefinite edit,move Persistent disruptive editing: restore previous protection Daniel Case Draft:Inanimate Insanity 2024-08-19 03:28 indefinite create reduce protection level Discospinster Ogaden 2024-08-18 22:00 indefinite edit Long term disruptive editing and sock puppetry. Semi PP not effective. Going back to EC. Ad Orientem Ukrainian conscription crisis 2024-08-18 20:58 indefinite edit,move Community sanctions enforcement: WP:RUSUKR Ymblanter Draft:Kelly Cooney Cilella 2024-08-18 20:16 indefinite create Repeatedly recreated; requested at WP:RfPP Isabelle Belato Template:Freedom of panorama (US only) 2024-08-18 18:00 indefinite edit,move High-risk template or module: 2547 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II Template:Alumni 2024-08-18 18:00 indefinite edit,move High-risk template or module: 2501 transclusions (more info) MusikBot II Hamad City 2024-08-18 12:39 2025-08-18 12:39 edit,move Contentious topic restriction: WP:CT/A-I ToBeFree Battle of Zakho 2024-08-18 11:02 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction Johnuniq Iraqi–Kurdish conflict 2024-08-18 11:01 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction Johnuniq Nabatieh attack 2024-08-18 10:58 indefinite edit,move Contentious topic restriction Johnuniq Palestine 2024-08-18 10:27 indefinite edit Contentious topic restriction Johnuniq King of New Age 2024-08-18 09:54 2024-09-18 09:54 create Repeatedly recreated Johnuniq

Question on enforceability of voluntary editing restrictions

Is there a current consensus on whether voluntary editing restrictions are a) enforceable b) whether someone who has agreed to one requires a community discussion to end one they have agreed to? I have assumed, due to the existence of WP:Editing restrictions/Voluntary, that they were the same as any restriction placed by the community as a WP:CBAN. So, it would be possible for an editor to make a promise of 'I will do/not do X; If I do not I will be blocked until I agree to do X'.

The reason I ask is I have been considering a potential, opt-in, solution to community recall and the current RfA has brought my attention back to the issue. In essence the 'opt-in' binding recall is given teeth by an editing restricting which says 'I will be subject to this process and if I am recalled I will resign. If I do not I will be blocked until I do'. I wrote a more detailed draft of the idea a couple of days ago at Jbhunley/Essays/Binding community recall.

I am more interested in input on whether the basic idea of whether it is possible to make an agreement between an editor, entered into voluntarily (as sometimes happens at ANI) and the community can be enforced than I am on the details of the process. Although I would appreciate any input, particularly from administrators, on the essay talk page about how the proposed 'contract' can be modified to make it more appealing to sign up to. If the concept is viable I hope it will allow us to address a perennial issue in an organic, bottom up, manner rather in the all-or-nothing way which has failed so often.

To everyone who has read this far; thank you for your time. Jbh ^Talk 13:44, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

• Any thoughts on this? We have a couple logged at Editing restrictions/Voluntary but no guidance at WP:CBAN. Is this practice now generally and non-controversialy accepted or is an RfC needed? This page is more widely watched than CBAN so I hope for a bit of input to make sure what I think consensus is is accurate before making BOLD changes there. Jbh ^Talk 16:11, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
• Jbhunley: I reverted your change to WP:BAN. Since this practice is so rare and is virtually never logged, I don’t think we have an established policy on this. How I would view it as an admin would depend on the circumstances it was agreed to, how long ago it was, and how disruptive the violation was. If it was disruptive I would consider it a factor weighing towards a longer block, if it wasn’t, I would view it as them no longer voluntarily agreeing to the restriction. I would also never personally log such a sanction as I think the whole concept of a logged voluntary restriction means it isn’t voluntary, so it defeats the purpose of informally asking people about it. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:30, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Copied from CBAN talk to keep things centralized: "voluntary restrictions are enforceable simply by saying they are and sanctioning their violation. The community has already accepted this tacitly by recording bans at WP:Editing restrictions/Voluntary. You seem to be saying those restrictions no longer valid. Is that the case?"

In re your comment: The issue is that the logging page does not indicate that the restrictions logged there are in any way different from one another. In fact the Rusf10 one has been treated here precisely an a community imposed CBAN would be. I see no indication that this restriction would be treated as 'unenforceable' either. Also, please note that this 'voluntary' ban explicitly requires an appeal to lift it.

As you say, policy follows practice and practice is that a voluntary ban is enforceable. If there is general disagreement on this then an RfC should be put together before more restrictions are logged as 'voluntary'. This thread was up for five days before I made the edit at CBAN and not a single editor opined on the matter so it seemed relativity uncontroversial – maybe more will chime in now to get a better sense of how editors see these types of bans. Jbh ^Talk 17:46, 6 June 2018 (UTC) Last edited: 17:48, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Ha! We cross posted twice, I think WT:BAN is a better location, but for anyone who is curious, I basically said there that policy does indeed follow practice and the practice of enforcing voluntary bans as community sanctions is virtually non-existent. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:50, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Terri McCormick isn't satisfied with article about her

• Factcheck1024 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Terri McCormick (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• User:Factcheck1024/sandbox (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

I became aware of this at Articles for Creation. I would report this at COIN, but the COI editing, which is really self-promotional editing, has all been reverted, and there doesn’t seem to be any question about disclosure, since User:Factcheck1024 says that she is Terri McCormick. (We don’t know that for a fact, but ….) The sandbox appears to be a clumsy attempt to contact editor User:Shellwood, who was one of the editors who reverted the edits. The subject is saying that “Wikipedia” is edit-warring against her efforts to put “corrected info” in her biography. Having read the material that she tried to put in, it isn’t neutral and isn’t purely factual but is promotional. She requests that if she can’t update the article (which, in my opinion, is neutrally presented), then she wants it taken down. We have sometimes been willing to permit article subjects of biographies of living persons of questionable notability to request that articles be deleted. However, McCormick satisfies political notability as a former state legislator. I don’t see any issues of factual correctness that she has identified. She hasn’t tried to edit the article in the past two weeks, so it doesn’t need edit-protection. I just thought that this ought to be reported. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:51, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Her beef seems to be that it under-represents her post-politics career ("a lack of information that distorts my role as a Leadership Expert and Research in the field of Government and Policy Leadership")—which may set off potential PROMO alarm-bells, but only later...for now, if these activities are reported neutrally in RS, then I assume adding them will resolve the issue? On the assumption such sourcing exists, of course. —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 16:58, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

First, the language that the author was trying to insert was rightly setting off promotional editing alarm bells; it was blatantly non-neutral. Second, it is up to a neutral editor to find whether her "leadership expertise" activities are neutrally reported in reliable sources. Third, I see that at least one neutral editor, User:Jytdog, and one unregistered editor are tweaking the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:10, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Since the editor has been trying to communicate at User:Factcheck1024/sandbox, I left a message there. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:26, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Strange talk page posts

Can someone take a look at I.P User:45.49.226.155 please? They are asking almost gibberish questions on natural science related article talk pages and now at WikiProject Portals. I'm not sure if they are trolling, are artificial intelligence, or are just genuinely asking odd questions. Kind regards, Cesdeva ^(talk) 19:34, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

My orgone sensor is detecting Time Cube levels of peculiar here. Fear the IP who only posts on philosophy and physics talk pages while making zero sense... if they erupt into mainspace I think some swift quelling may become necessary. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 17:22, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

RFC on speedy G13

Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion § Request for comment: Promising drafts. Admins will probably want to know about this, the proposal is that any editor can tag a draft with {{promising draft}} and at that point the template can't be removed and the draft can't be deleted under G13. The discussion goes into questions of review of G13s which bear directly on admin discretion and may suggest improvements in how we review tagged articles before deletion. Guy (Help!) 08:11, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

To put a finer point on this - they mean a promising draft tag can not be removed by anyone under any circumstances unless the page is deleted at MfD or promoted to mainspace. Legacypac (talk) 20:39, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Proactive report regarding copyright issues

It is quite common to use this board to report backlogs require an administrator attention. This report starts out with two strikes against it because it isn't a matter that requires administrator attention and it isn't a backlog. Nevertheless, I persevere.

I think most reading this would agree that keeping Wikipedia free of copyright violations is extremely important. While investigating potential copyright violations is not something that technically requires the admin bit, the majority of editors working on these problems have years of experience, and I'd prefer not to post this request at a place where some editors with little experience decide to "help".

The CopyPatrol tool is an excellent tool used to detect potential copyright violations as they occur.

While it doesn't technically have a backlog, if you clicked on the link, you'll see that the majority of cases closed are handled by a very small handful of editors. Too small.

Frankly, I'm running into a bit of burnout, and while my contributions pale compared to Diannaa, heaven help us if she decides to take a break. I think it would be good if a small handful of editors pitched in and handled a few of these items, which would help ensure that we don't run into a significant problem if a couple regulars decide to take a break.

Think of this as a proactive report, a badly abused term that might actually be appropriate in this instance.--S Philbrick(Talk) 16:30, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. This is an extremely important issue now for Wikipedia. I wonder how many here have actually sought to clear up some of the plagiarism cases in the Wikipedia backlog? (I can readily defend "simple restatement of dry facts", but I ran across people who stole entire newspaper articles verbatim, and then did not even cite their sources <g>.) A "Creative Commons" license does not "cure" provable infringement. Collect (talk) 17:34, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Clarification regarding Syrian Civil War & ISIL sanctions

Following several profound community discussions over Syrian Civil War topic, as part of motion from 2013 it was concluded that the "The Arbitration Committee concludes that the topic of the Syrian Civil War does not fit within the category of Arab-Israeli disputes, although certain specific issues relating to that war would fall within that topic." and hence Motion 3 was enacted by user:Callanecc. As a result separate Wikipedia:GS/SCW&ISIL sanctions were installed envoking 1RR policy, similar but separate from ARBPIA. I have to emphasize that Motion 1 ("While content that involves Israel in the Syrian civil war topic area does fall under the scope of Arab-Israeli Arbitration Enforcement, the overall topic area does not.") and Motion 2 ("Concern has been raised that the Syrian Civil War does not fit within the category of Arab-Israeli disputes, although certain specific issues relating to that war might fall within that topic.") were rejected by the arbitration committee, hence deciding not to apply ARBPIA neither on broadly-construed Syrian Civil War articles and neither on those having to do with Israel, while installing new SCW sanctions to cover those all.

Despite the above decision, on several occasions users and administrators, not aware of the nature of the conflict and the scope of sanctions, tried to envoke ARBPIA 30/500 (refers typically to Israel-Palestine case, which is not covered by Wikipedia:GS/SCW&ISIL) upon Syrian Civil War-related articles. In 2017, administrator Ad Orienem added the 30/500 template to the Iran–Israel proxy conflict article, but following a discussion it was agreed that ARBPIA is irrelevant to Syrian conflict-related articles upon 2013 motion and the tag was indeed removed. More recently, in May 2018, administrator BU Rob13 once again added ARBPIA 30/500 tag to the Iran–Israel proxy conflict article and several others, and again following an explanation and discussion it was decided to lift the incorrect ARBPIA 30/500 tagging (in his own words administrator was not aware of the fact that Iran is not an Arab country).

Despite the clarification on Iran-Israel proxy conflict several Syrian Civil War related articles remain tagged as ARBPIA 30/500 (Israeli–Syrian ceasefire line incidents during the Syrian Civil War, Israeli involvement in the Syrian Civil War, May 2018 Israel–Iran incidents, February 2018 Israel–Syria incident tagged by administrator BU Rob13 and January 2015 Shebaa farms incident by another), which creates confusion among editors about the nature of Syrian Civil War sanctions and whether ARBPIA additionally applies to anything related with Syria and Israel. This situation clearly goes against Motion 3, but perhaps in line with the rejected Motion 1 in 2013 arbitration. I herewith ask to correct the situation and clarify once again enacted Motion 3 against inserting ARBPIA sanctions back into the Syrian Civil War topic, unless Arbitration Committee changes the motion conclusion. Thank you.GreyShark (dibra) 10:58, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

The above linked motion 3 very clearly states some issues related to the war do fall within ARBPIA. Syria is listed as an Arab country in our own article on Arab countries, and they have long been involved in the Arab-Israeli conflict. The article on the conflict even states that Israel's participation in the Syrian Civil War have heightened tensions related to the broader Arab-Israeli conflict. To the extent that Israel and Syria come into conflict, those articles are part of ARBPIA, despite the Syrian Civil War in general not being entirely part of the topic area. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 12:19, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

There are two questions here:

1. Do Syrian Civil War articles, already sanctioned by SCW, also require an additional ARBPIA sanctions tool which is more aggressive, considering that the community Request to amend sanctions on Syrian Civil War articles asked to replace ARBPIA with SCW sanctions and was closed in favor.

2. The assumption that incidents between Syria and Israel during the course of the Syrian War may be considered part of the Arab-Israeli conflict requires verification by good reliable sources, which are missing; so far the incidents have been described as part of the Iran-Israel proxy conflict (May 2018 Israel–Iran incidents for example), where Israel is allied with Saudi Arabia and Sunni Arab states against Iran, while Ba'athist Syria supports Iran and was banished from the Arab League.

Note that until recently there have been practically no cases of double-tagging Syrian Civil War topics with both sanctions types and that the Iran-Israel proxy conflict is widely agreed not being part of the Arab-Israeli conflict or somehow related with it.GreyShark (dibra) 16:01, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

• Comment - @Newyorkbrad, NuclearWarfare, Courcelles, Salvio giuliano, AGK, SilkTork, David Fuchs, Timotheus Canens, Roger Davies, Worm That Turned, and Risker: I would like to ask the opinion and interpretation of administrators who took part in the motion in 2013 (removing ARBPIA sanctions from Syrian Civil War article and installing the SCW sanctions).GreyShark (dibra) 16:14, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
• The motion was for a temporary fix (I think we were deciding on the exact length and decided on 30 days in the end). I'm not sure what has happened in the meantime, but I don't see this as an appropriate matter for the now defunk 2013 Committee, especially given that we only agreed to extend ARBPIA sanctions for one month. I think we expected the community to then discuss the matter and come up with an agreement. If the community cannot, then they need to ask the current Committee. SilkTork (talk) 16:30, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Good point - the temporary 30day sanctions on Syrian Civil War were extended via community discussion at WP:AN, which has placed pages related to the Syrian Civil War under general sanctions indefinitely effective 21:08, 31 August 2013 (UTC).GreyShark (dibra) 16:55, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

@Bbb23: as closing administrator for the Request to amend sanctions on Syrian Civil War articles - your opinion would be most welcome.GreyShark (dibra) 17:26, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Bach editing

For months, there has been one dispute after the other between two editors of classical music (mainly JS Bach), and the friction goes beyond standard disagreements into accusations of vandalism and off-wiki harm. The two editors involved are User:Francis Schonken and User:Mathsci. The latest longish discussion about this is at User talk:Newyorkbrad#Francis Schonken is edit-warring to remove your thread on Talk:Uns ist ein Kind geboren, BWV 142. Older discussions can e.g. be found at User talk:Mathsci#User talk:Francis Schonken and subsequent sections there.

By now, many editors have become involved in these disputes, and it has taken up many hours and led to blocks (both editors have quite a few blocks in their history). I have blocked Mathsci in the past and more recently, and I would prefer not to take any further admin actions here and to let clearly uninvolved admins deal with the two editors. Mathsci has serious health concerns, which causes longish gaps in their recent editing (no problem there), but which they (in my opinion) misuse as an excuse to put the blame on Francis Schonken too often.

Both editors are clearly knowledgeable about classical music, and a topic ban from such articles would be tough on both of them. But an interaction ban seems hardly feasible as they have so many articles where they have by now both spent considerable effort. Something creative is needed here (preferably more effective than Bach flower remedies :-) )

In my experience with these two editors in this dispute, they both are uncompromising and rather stubborn, but (perhaps due to some selection bias) I have the impression that the most problematic edits are by Mathsci. The above DYK was for an article originally created as a redirect by Francis Schonken, and only later edited by Mathsci: the DYK as well was first edited by FS and immediately afterwards by Mathsci.

The most recent interaction is at Template:Did you know nominations/An Wasserflüssen Babylon, which has now been opened for more than 3 months. They are the two most prolific commenters there, and their first edit was less than 2 hours apart[1]. The article for that DYK, An Wasserflüssen Babylon, has been edited 156 times by Francis Schonken and 731 times by Mathsci.

Mathsci makes claims of vandalism way too often. I already mentioned this to him in the discussion on his talk page, but he simply continues, e.g. this edit summary and this one.

Mathsci seems to be following Francis Schonken around to completely unrelated articles; when FS edits the Auschwitz disambiguation page[2], Mathsci reverts the same day[3], even though they have never edited that page before. More back-and-forth at that page follows. When FS explains his change at the talk page, Mathsci gives a rambling response which addresses a lot of things but not really the actual edits. Mathsci not only left a rather condescending post on FS user talk page[4], but when FS removed this (as is his right), he restored[5] it with further commentary, even though I had already explained to Mathsci (when they did the same thing earlier) that a removed post should never be reposted.

That second post[6] then goes on to insult FS ("It was spelled out so that even a small child could understand it. That Francis Schonken went into edit-warring phase was predictible. At that stage he did not have a "minder" or "henchman" there to provide advice or back-up. ") and continues with rehashing some old history (an episode for which I blocked Mathsci as they were clearly in the wrong there, but which they still use to blame FS).

Another example: FS creates an article, which Mathsci then tag-bombs[7]. This includes completely inaccurate tags like "peacock", "one source", "primary sources", ... FS expands the article significantly, and removes the tags: Mathsci reverts this removal as being a "disruptive edit"[8] even though the tags are even less accurate now. FS again continues editing and expanding the article, and at the end again removes the tags. One month later, Mathsci readds the exact same tags yet again[9]. These are the only edits he ever made to this article or its talk page. This is either harassment or a case of WP:CIR, but not acceptable editing behaviour.

What clearly crosses the line and is a perfect example of the position Mathsci now takes is his edit summary of 19 May[10]: "in isolation of N11, saboteur/troll still active in disrupting my home IP, almost surely FS is the culprit given his petty and childish persona". This not only is a clear PA against FS, but also accuses him of somehow disrupting Mathsci's home IP. At the moment, everything FS says is interpreted in the worst possible way, and rather unreasonably so. The last posts on Template:Did you know nominations/An Wasserflüssen Babylon (from 3 June and later) are typical for this.

I may well be painting a one-sided picture here, and would ask others to go over the interactions of the last few months and unravel the problems. But I don't think that letting this continue is in any way productive. Perhaps this is too complicated for AN and needs ArbCom, but I hope that the combined wisom of the AN crowd can find some solution which lets peace return. Fram (talk) 14:32, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

• I strongly suggest the section Francis Schonken's disruptive conduct is preventing content creation on Orgelbüchlein from ANI in June 2016 as lengthy but useful background reading. It will give a more rounded picture of this situation. MathSci was not the only recipient of his attentions, although his way of dealing with it has tended to be both extreme and counterproductive. Anyhow, Francis ended up with a community-imposed 6 month restriction to one revert per page in any calendar month, applying to all pages except his own user and user talk pages. Amongst the problems which surfaced at the June 2016 ANI, apart from repeated edit-warring, were weaponizing maintenance tags in content or personal disputes, massively refactoring other editors' talk page comments, and lots of I didn't hear that. Plus ça change? Voceditenore (talk) 15:56, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

• I dunno, perhaps the only solution is to WP:IAR and craft a solution that bars each of them from editing an article unless they were the first of the two edit it. Period. Make it apply to the talk page and to any related discussions about the page as well. There are more than enough classical music subjects to around. Voceditenore (talk) 16:29, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

• Your solution may well be the right one, but I'ld like to see some evidence that the problematic editing by FS has persisted more recently (preferably the last three months, but at least somewhere in 2018). If the problematic edits are still coming from both sides, then sanctioning both is best. If the problematic edits are no longer coming from both sides but only one side continues, then sanctioning that side may be better (or fairer). Fram (talk) 16:35, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

• User:Fram has been told by arbitrators that I am currently gravely ill. There are still ongoing üdiscussion on arbitration on User talk:Newyorkbrad#Comment on Newyorkbrad and above. On 18–27 May in Addenbrooke's Hospital, Cambridge, I had the last of six related emergency incidents. These involved (a) major stroke (b) cardiology (c) blackouts (syncope) (d) acute kidney illness. I cannot possibly do anything here. I can hardly move. Mathsci (talk) 16:41, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

• • You have used your illness as an excuse for months now. It didn't stop you following FS to the Auschwitz disambiguation and so on. I'm sorry that you are in such bad health, but then don't edit Wikipedia, and certainly don't edit anything controversial. The "ongoing discussion" at Newyorkbrad had one comment from you from early May, and the last before that was from 19 April. That's not an ongoing discussion, that's a stalled one you had to pull from the archives. You continued your disruption during and after that discussion. Fram (talk) 16:48, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
• What do you mean by excuse? User:Newyorkbrad has explained the serious health problems and you seem to be treating that as if they don't exist. Mathsci (talk) 16:57, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

  If I had to guess, they would like you to respond to the merits above (in which they acknowledged your health issues, btw). Arkon (talk) 17:03, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

• That is impossible at this time. The medication means I can only sleep every other night. From what I understand I still have acute kidney illness (AKI) and that is being looked into by my GP (on Thursday) and in the cadiology clinic next Monday (where there is a problem with ACE inhibitors). I am sorry, I cannot change that. User:Doug Weller is aware of the ongoing medical problems. User:Newyorkbrad is already organising this. User:Fram seems to be trying to stop that happening. What has been happening is some kind of low key arbitration case, supervised by Newyorkbrad, which will not endanger my health. Mathsci (talk) 17:30, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

What is a "low key arbitration case"? Is there a page for those? Just because an arbitrator makes a comment somewhere, it hardly counts as "arbitration". Nor do an arbitrator's comments outside ARBCOM carry any more weight than anyone else's. If what you're talking about is some "thing" carried out entirely off-wiki with only one of "combatants" participating... well... um... Voceditenore (talk) 17:48, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

It means the ongoing discussion on arbitration that has been taking place for about two months on User talk:Newyorkbrad#Comment by Newyorkbrad and above. It was started by Softlavender, but she prefers not to be mentioned. Mathsci (talk) 18:06, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

There's no "ongoing discussion about arbitration" (or organising of it) on Newyorkbrad's talk page. His last comment on the dispute there was almost two months ago, and his only mention of arbitration in that comment was "Unless the two of them find some way to disengage voluntarily, I fear there is no alternative but an impose remedy, whether via an ANI discussion or arbitration or otherwise". Really, Mathsci, for your own sake, and frankly everyone else's, you need to completely disengage from this dispute. Who knows? Some of the administrators and experienced editors here might actually come up with a solution. Just let them get on with it. Voceditenore (talk) 18:50, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The kind of major stroke I had, expressive dysphasia, have several effects. One thing is that, under stress, the damaged brain left hemisphere cannot be managed properly. That means I stop being to able to speak. That happened on the weekend of the emergency incident in Addenbrooke's Hospital when, in error, one of the gastrointestinal consultants suspended all of my medication. That resulted in what is called a hypertensive emergency. That has to be avoided, because the main risk is a second stroke, which usually is fatal. Fram has used the word "antics" to describe the mechanism of stroke. I have difficulty even remembering the word when stressed. Mathsci (talk) 18:06, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

if stress is bad for your health issues, perhaps the best thing is to avoid Wikipedia, because you seem unable to avoid conflict, and thus stress, while here. Following FS to the Auschwitz disambig page does not look like the actions of someone trying to avoid conflict and stress. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:15, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

• I sympathize with Mathsci's ongoing medical problems, which appear to be very serious, and sincerely hope that things get better for them, but it seems to me that if Mathsci can rally sufficiently to edit the encyclopedia, and describe in detail their medical situation, then Mathsci must also be able to participate in discussions about their editing. They cannot claim a free pass on discussions while continuing to edit. Either Mathsci needs to take a break from editing -- or avoid any and all controversial edits and restrict themselves to simple fixes and anti-vandalism -- or, if they continue to edit as normal, they must be willing to give over some of their limited editing time to discussions. To do otherwise is unfair to other editors and to the community in general. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:13, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

I have mentioned in the discussion on arbitration that at the moment I cannot concentrate properly. Unfortinately that is just a fact. At the moment I am staying in bed under medication, writing only total trivia that requires no concentration, more like gnoming (comments on Jayda Fransen for example). I think I mentioned that problem of lack of concentration on User talk:Newyorkbrad#Comment by Newyorkbrad. The method NYB chose gave a method of discussion which did not rush me. Before the emergency of 18–27 May, I slowly prepared a whole set of diffs describing my editing on Canonic Variations between January and March 2018: I prepared those slowly in the middle of May before the I was rushed into A&E. I can locate those in the framework NYB had devised, but not here: I am absolutely shattered. At the moment it would be impossible, because the colonoscopy and hypertensive emergency has stopped me thinking in any sustained way. Mathsci (talk) 18:41, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

I should also say that folks like BMK, Softlavender, Doug Weller, Snowded, Ealdgyth, Diannaa, Bishonen, David Eppstein, MastCell, Regentspark, Voceditenore put me at ease as old regulars. Doug Weller in particular noticed the usual LTA (permabanned from WP:ARBR&I) making mischief recently (see e.g. Orgelbüchlein). Mathsci (talk) 18:56, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

I could also watch, in a sedentary state, as the Memills saga unravelled: all history that BMK (or other wikifriends like Maunus, aprock, ArtifexMayhem, Johnuniq, Killlerchihuahua, etc) will remember from the days of Miradre/Acdemia Orientalis. So I can do superficial gossip, but not much more. Mathsci (talk) 19:16, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Fram has also not explained why from 28 April until now, Francis Schonken's editing suddenly switched to UNESCO World Heritage Infoboxes edits: en route, Francis Schonken seems to have needlessly ruffled the feathers of User:RexxS, User:Mike Peel, User:Andrewa and User:Beetstra. Similarly the main topic here was Lutheran hymns from the Reformation, not Bach as Fram has suggested. Mathsci (talk) 19:58, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Nice attempt to ping other editors who you feel have a negative view of FS. But it's not really clear why I should need to explain FS editing a topic completely unrelated to you. Perhaps, instead of going through FS' edits trying to find other editors who might support you, you could explain why you made the edits highlighted in my opening statement? Why you are following FS around, making personal attacks, accusing him of offwiki criminal (or at least unethical and very dubious) activities? These edits can hardly be explained by "but FS is suddenly editing unesco articles"... Fram (talk) 07:33, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• I propose that Mathsci is placed under a one-way IBAN with Francis Schonken, however, Mathsci is expressly permitted to ask Newyorkbrad or any editor he designates to act on their behalf in any disputes. If Mathsci is physically unable to edit Wikipedia, they should not do so, but that doesn't mean their voice should be silenced. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:17, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

• In the discussion on arbitration initiated by Newyorkbrad (see above), User:MastCell has already indicated that Francis Schonken's comments on my user talk page were "petty and childish." MastCell indicated that Francis Schonken is quite likely to be indefinitely blocked (If I understand his properly). I have a sleeping tablet fairly shortly. I can see that the peanut gallery want to have their fun. Mathsci (talk) 20:34, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

• Support IBAN as per BMK and Power - Mathsci I do hope you get better soon and or your situation improves, Anyway in short IBAN seems the only best solution here thus fart. –Davey2010^Talk 20:29, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

To follow up and clarify something stated above, I have been in contact with Mathsci occasionally in recent months. He has shared with me what at the time was private information concerning his health, although more recently he has shared this information publicly (frankly, I do not see that it is necessary to do so in such detail). He has also shared with me some other non-public information, but none that I can link with Frances Schonken. A couple of months ago, I expressed concern on-wiki that Frances Schonken and Mathsci were persistently giving each other an unnecessarily hard time (see Talk:Uns ist ein Kind geboren, BWV 142#Mathsci and Francis Schonken). Frances Schonken's initial response was to dispute how I had worded the section header, an issue I perceived as of relatively minor importance. My perception at the time was that Frances Schonken was unnecessarily following Mathsci's edits. As Mathsci notes above, there has subsequently been a thread on my talkpage in which I repeated my request that these two editors stay away from each other.

This thread opened by Fram suggests that problems between the editors are continuing, but I am not as persuaded as Fram is that the problems lie in one direction. Mathsci, although he has not led a blameless wikilife by any means, has been the subject of long-term harassment by banned users (nothing to do with Frances Schonken or with the music-topic areas), and as stated above suffers from health issues; that does not mean that he is free to violate any policies or guidelines, but I do hope he will be treated with an extra dose of courtesy and understanding. That being said, I am not commenting "as an arbitrator" in this thread, and I'm certainly not administering some sort of one-man secret arbitration case. I would be grateful if someone could please figure out how to keep these two editors away from each other, without damaging either of them or the encyclopedia. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:37, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Since I've been pinged I've read through the above and will put in my two cents. Yes, I have had my feathers ruffled by FS on many occasions and I try to be Christian on this, see wp:creed#4, so I hope my feathers are not too easily ruffled. But that's a disclosure.

I would like to see even-handedness on this, and think that the squatters rights Tban proposed above [11] has a great deal of merit. The objective is not to punish either or both but simply to protect Wikipedia. Both sides have regularly transgressed wp:NPA Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done.... and I see little hope of this changing while many admins set an appalling example by doing the same (but that's another hobbyhorse of mine). Both sides are powerfully here and their good faith is IMO unquestionable.

So ideally we want to give them both the best and most effective guidance that we can, to enable them to continue their valuable work unhindered by each other. Andrewa (talk) 21:19, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to note that such a "squatter's rights" sanction could easily be gamed. I won't say how, but I think anyone of reasonable intelligence can figure it out. Given that, I really don't think it's a viable solution. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:43, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Disagree. The devil is perhaps in the details, but part of the sanction would be that any attempt to game the system to avoid the Tban would be dealt with severely. (When I say "severely", probably the best response in that event would be to simply revoke the sanction on the innocent party while leaving it in place on the other.) They're both highly intelligent and would understand this if it were put in those or similar terms. For one of them to suddenly post trivial edits to many articles, for example, or even to otherwise modify their editing pattern so as to greatly increase the number of articles to which they had editing rights, would trigger this response. Or if one were to waste their time devising more sophisticated strategies to keep the gaming under the radar, problem solved. But neither is that stupid, IMO. Andrewa (talk) 07:41, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: Francis Schonken has been the clear aggressor in this saga from the very beginning, and after original six-month editing restriction imposed at ANI in June 2016 [12], he went right back to persistent, long-term, deliberate targeting and harassing of Mathsci. Mathsci is not blameless, as he has some behavioral issues of his own, but FS is the aggressor and troublemaker. I do not support a 2-way interaction ban between these two editors. I Support a one-way interaction ban on Francis Schonken towards Mathsci. In my mind that is the only way this harassment and disruption is going to stop, short of an ArbCom case, which at this point is well warranted in my opinion (we've already been through at least two ANI threads). So I'm in favor of one or the other: a one-way IBan, or an ArbCom case. Softlavender (talk) 02:17, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I've given evidence of clear, very recent cases where Mathsci is the aggressor. Can you please provide similar recent cases where FS is the aggressor? Otherwise you propose to sanction FS for old behaviour while ignoring the continuing unacceptable behaviour by Mathsci. Are there e.g. articles where FS clearly followed Mathsci, instead of the other way around, in the last 2 or 3 months (i.e. since you started that thread at Newyorkbrad's talk page)? Fram (talk) 04:32, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I am very much in agreement with Softlavender on all details, including several reports on AN/I and others. On 29 December 2017, Softlavender used the words "vendetta" and "harassment" to describe FS's patterns of edits.[13] (My stroke took place a few hours later while editing the same item.) I have edited during 2006–2018 and have covered a lot of different topics. Mathsci (talk) 06:55, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Mathsci, if you feel that FS is having a vendetta against you and is harassing you, then why are you following him again and again and again? Fram (talk) 07:28, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
      • Fram, could you please stop putting words into my mouth? In my wikipedia edits I usually write in a restrained and nuanced way: my favourite words are "neutral and anodyne." Here I have quoted what Softlavender wrote, that is all. At this stage, I don't have any "feeling" about this at all. Indeed I just feel numbed. In the same way, I am aware that User:MastCell has written a number of comments on FS which I will simply report without interpretation. Mathsci (talk) 08:20, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
        • When you state "I am very much in agreement with Softlavender on all details", and then explicitly quotes their words "vendetta" and "harassment", then it is very strange to then complain that I am putting words in your mouth. Could you perhaps address your own recent edits instead of repeating what others said months ago? Fram (talk) 08:58, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I am an agreement with what Softlavender has written; her comments seem very sensible and she writes well. At the moment I'm trying to see whether my concentration is improving by reading Beverly Jerrold's 2012 article Kirnberger vs Marpurg: A reappraisal. Some of the material was already used in the reception section of Clavier-Übung III, but that was written earlier in 2010. Mathsci (talk) 09:21, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

And that is in any way relevant for this discussion because...? Fram (talk) 09:27, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Just before the incident on 18 May, I was editing Talk:An Wasserflüssen Babylon, trying to write a preparatory summary (including content on Jerrold). User:Gerda Arendt is the person who suggested that I help there: I had previously written Great Eighteen Chorale Preludes in 2008 or 2009. An Wasserflüssen Babylon, BWV 653, is one of the chorale preludes I play. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 09:49, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

So no actual relevance. This report is about your recent conduct towards FS (and vice versa, if any), not what sources you read to edit. Please address the accusations that you inappropriately follow them around, tag-bomb their articles, personally attack them and accuse them of fairly unlikely off-wiki behaviour. Fram (talk) 09:56, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

The comments on 19, 24, 26 May were written when I was in the isolation ward N2. Not really the usual wikipedia environment and at times it was quite alarming (despite the Royal Wedding). In October 2012 at UCL, I edited The Heart Hospital prior to heart surgery (4 October) and then as an outpatient (16 October).

On various WP noticeboards, I have mentioned previously that online sources using CD liners, raw Bach archive content and 18th or 19th century sources are usually not good as WP:RS. My editing method is usually to gather the best available reliable secondary sources and then summarise them. The same applies to mathematics, e.g. Contraction (operator theory). List items could potentially give an excuse not to follow that procedure: then the best idea, if possible, is to make a proper article, instead of a list-cum-article. How many baroque articles have you edited or created? Mathsci (talk) 10:50, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Mathsci, if you can't be bothered to address the actual issues, then please don't answer at all. You have added lots of replies here, but so far none of them have brought us any closer to solving this whole situation, but instead only add lots of distractions. How is the number of baroque articles I have edited in any way related to this complaint? Fram (talk) 11:00, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

It would be a problem if you had hardly any experience of editing articles on baroque music. (On wikipedia, people usually write about what they know.) As far as I am aware, my edits on music have been accepted by almost all other editors, i.e. there is a long standing consensus. Looking at it in a different way, possibly taking into account Softlavender's comments, might there not be a problem with some of the edits of Francis Schonken? Mathsci (talk) 11:54, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

it would be a problem if we were discussing content issues, which we aren't. We are discussing conduct issues, specifically your recent conduct (no recent problematic conduct by FS has so far been presented). A topic you have avoided at all costs so far. Fram (talk) 12:11, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• You at no point write words in a restrained and nuanced way. You waffle, obfuscate, personally attack, try to divert from clear statements, avoid the point, write tldr walls of barely relevant (or even coherent) text, in fact do anything you can to weasel around your obstructive and deliberately frustrating attitude. When you write 'I agree with everything they said' it is not putting words into your mouth to say you feel they have a vendetta when that is entirely the subject of their comment. It's this sort of bullshit that has led to you being unable to work with editors on what, two topic areas previously? It's a familiar patten. Mathsci gets into conflict (usually because of your overwhelmingly arrogant and insulting editing towards others), blames everyone else, blames harrassment, tries to link it to past harrassment from unrelated people, vindictively targets others by means of personal attacks, hounding etc, blames illness for not participating when your disruptive editing is brought up. And ends up moving to a different topic when enough people have been pissed off only for the cycle to start again. If you seriously want to claim innocence in all this, an arbcom case will have plenty of evidence going back years showing the pattern of your interactions with others. It will be a long and gruelling process, and it will likely go ahead regardless of your personal situation because Wikipedia is not therapy and your illness is not an excuse to be trotted out every time your own nature causes you to get into conflict with others. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:03, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
• And before this goes much further, could an uninvolved admin read this previous discussion (plenty of further reading there as well RE their behaviour) which clearly shows their tactics when brought to a noticeboard, and swiftly hat any of Mathsci's off-topic comments to keep this on track. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:44, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I think it's plain from the above that some of us sympathise more with Francis Schonken and some with Mathsci, and as I've disclosed I'm likely to be in the latter group. But this probably says more about us than about them. Again I recommend an even-handed approach as the best way of protecting Wikipedia. Justice may be in the eye of the beholder, but if we focus on why we are here that need not be an issue. Andrewa (talk) 09:41, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

The details

I think the time has come to actually do something!

So I'd like to further investigate the possibility of a creative squatters' rights Tban as suggested by Voceditenore above. [14]

Beyond My Ken has suggested that this could be easily gamed. I think I see what they mean, but as I replied [15] I think this can be addressed.

So I propose that we invite each to name two advocates, all four to be administrators. I will volunteer to be one for Mathsci. In doing so, I invite both of them to post anything that doesn't cross the line into oversight territory on my user talk page. Attack me, attack each other, attack the other advocates. email me if it might be oversightable! Just call what they see as problematical editing by the other to our attention, that's the important thing. (And keep it off the article talk pages.) And we'll look at it, and possibly discuss it among the panel of four, and issue stern warnings if it's anywhere near transgressing.

Because, if any three of the advocates agree that one of the combatants has transgressed the Tban, then the Tban will immediately revert to a simple community topic ban on Bach-related articles on the transgressor, and the other will be released from the Tban.

Mathsci doesn't have to nominate me as one of their advocates of course. (And if they don't then Francis Schonken is free to and I'd be very flattered to accept, but I don't think that's likely.) Both just need to find two advocates to be on this panel.

Comments? Other volunteers? Andrewa (talk) 10:33, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

So let me get this straight... in order to police this remedy - we'd need four admins to monitor two editors? Seems like a lot of work and not something that's normally done. Would this preclude other admins from taking action on these two editors? Frankly, I'm inclined to interaction ban the two of them and if this means that either of them can't edit an article or two, it seems much simpler than what is current or what is proposed here. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:13, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I think Ealgyth's got it right. There's really no need for a complexly structured sanction when a standard IBan would seem to be a feasible solution. At the very least, it should be tried before going to an esoteric sanctions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:21, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Interaction bans have been tried with Mathsci before when he gets into conflict, he is uninterested in abiding by them. The last time resulted in him engaging in a particularly nasty form of outing/harrassment of the editor with which he was interaction banned. Frankly an interaction ban between him and FS is just asking for him (given his history of actions towards other editors) to resort to privacy-violating measures towards FS. Which wouldnt be unusual for him at all. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:55, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Let's please AGF of Mathsci, and take him at his word that he's not capable at this time of doing much complex editing, which would include, I think, following a convoluted sanction. He should, however, be capable of adhering to a simple, straightforward IBan with FS. If it turns out that that isn't the case, and he -- or Frances -- abuses the IBan, then a more complex sanction or even an indef block can follow, depending on the circumstances. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:53, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Sorry I'm not a battered wife, I don't have to AGF of anyone who has repeatedly time and again shown they are a threat to other editors privacy. His word is worth absolutely nothing. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:01, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm quite happy with an Iban affecting both equally. The more creative solution would only be appropriate of we had three other admins volunteer (and so far we have none) and if both parties agreed to it (and neither has yet commented). Andrewa (talk) 01:38, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

An IBan on both would probably be the best solution (I have my doubts if it will work, but it certainly is worth a shot). Fram (talk) 09:36, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Andrewa's proposal would be an even worse time-sink than the current situation. Both FS and Mathsci have tied up and frustrated numerous editors with their behaviour and now the proposal is to tie up 3 or 4 administrators as well? Speaking as a non-admin, but someone who has dealt with FS on multiple occasions (not all of them involving Mathsci), and crafted his 2016 1RR per month restriction, my view is that a. any IBAN must be mutual and b. a normal 2-way IBAN will not work unless it includes article space. The episode at the DYK nomination for An Wasserflüssen Babylon, which started the discussion here is a perfect microcosm of the problem:

• FS created An Wasserflüssen Babylon as a redirect in July 2017
• It lay dormant until 24 February 2018 when Gerda Arendt turned it into an article.
• FS shows up immediately and starts tag-bombing it until it looked like this. He has "form" doing this to Gerda in other articles, irrespective of Mathsci's participation. (See my comment in No details below.)
• By 3 March, Gerda had addressed the issues, removed the remaining tag and nominated it for DYK [16]. Note also the comments by an editor from the Guild of Copy Editors who had earlier removed most of FS's tag-bombing [17], [18].
• Mathsci starts expanding the article on 4 March after Gerda asked his help with it [19]. Francis then returns to editing the article on 6 March and the usual scenario plays out when they are editing the same article, tagging each others edits [20], [21] and soon repeatedly reverting each other. e.g. here: [22], [23], [24], [25] and here: [26]. The fighting later spilled onto a fork created by FS at An Wasserflüssen Babylon (Reincken) with multitple reverts of each other by FS and Mathsci, and this time Mathsci doing the tag bombing. (I'm not going to bother with diffs. Just look at the edit history.)
• The DYK review did not start until 21 March. The following day, FS shows up at the review, opposing a pass on the grounds that it is "unstable" [27] and proceeds to re-festoon the article with tags [28].
• Needless to say the DYK review soon broke down into bickering between FS and MathSci—largely by Mathsci. By 6 May the initial reviewer had withdrawn from the melee. Mathsci went on to increasingly bizarre and totally unacceptable personal attacks on FS [29]. The DYK remains completely stalled as of today (7 June) and probably will never pass given that FS had also placed a tag suggesting a split on the top of the article [30], where it remains today after he and Mathsci repeatedly reverted each other over it.

Ugh! Voceditenore (talk) 10:45, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

At the risk of repeating myself, my proposal will only work if we get at least another three admins to volunteer, and if we also get agreement from both parties. And there is no sign yet that either of these conditions will be met.

But I feel I must answer the question of a time sink. These four admins would be the only ones spending time on it. At present, all lurkers here (admin or not) are spending time on it. That time sink is exactly what I'm trying to reduce.

But the fascinating thing is, you seem to agree with my fundamental assumption that the solution should be even-handed. So, what's your solution? Do you really think that a simple IBan will be less of a time sink? My prediction is that we'll just be back here within a week, repeating much of the above discussion. I could be wrong, particularly about the timescale, but even if it takes a year it's still a time sink. But again to repeat myself, I'm happy to give it a go.

An IBan with some strict and explicit riders as to what constitutes a violation would stand more of a chance of getting their attention. But do we all want to be involved in setting those riders, and later policing them? My proposal essentially delegates all of this to the panel, to spell them out if and when necessary. And my prediction is that it will be necessary, but that when it happens (with at most four contributors needing to be involved) it will be effective, as the four will all have been accepted by the parties themselves. (I should have said, they need to both agree to all four nominations, I was just assuming that's part of the deal.) Again I could be wrong.

And I was hoping that the threat of an IBan would motivate them both to consider this proposal seriously. But here I do appear to be wrong, and repeating myself again, if that's the case there's no point in us even discussing the proposal further. It seemed like a good idea. But most good ideas don't work at all, and this appears to be one of those. It was worth a try. Andrewa (talk) 14:08, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Andrewa, I would propose a two-way IBAN to include article space, which bars each of them from editing an article unless they were the first of the two edit it (simple redirects do not count). Make it apply to the talk page and to any related discussions about the page as well. The behaviour of both editors, is equally poor, if not worse, on talk pages and merely exacerbates the conflict. You're right that this may well be too complicated or lengthy to work out here. On the other hand, I don't think you're going to find enough admins willing to take on your original proposal either. I have a feeling that if FS and Mathsci do not come to their senses voluntarily, the only remaining option is ARBCOM. Too bad really, but there it is. Voceditenore (talk) 14:22, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Very well put. Support this IBan. Agree that there don't seem to be enough admins willing to take on my original proposal. I was hoping that the parties themselves might do the recruiting, but that didn't work either.

I also note that Fram has already supported exactly this IBan in very similar terms [31] (correct me if I'm wrong). Andrewa (talk) 14:45, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Indeed. You may count me as a support (here, or if you turn this into a separate section). While I still personally feel the recent most egregious problems are perhaps not truly from both sides, they both have a long history of causing trouble and being too focused on each other, and ending this dsiruption in this way seems the most fair. Fram (talk) 14:53, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I think we should bear in mind that this is not a court that dispenses justice or even pretends to do so (to quote my favourite lawyer, "there's commonsense, there's justice, and there's the law, and the court is only interested in the law"). This is a management process that empowers volunteer Wikipedians to create an encyclopedia. I've spent much of my life empowering volunteer church musicians, and one of the hardest things is telling a keen and competent musician that they don't fit in. But it must sometimes be done. I have almost always succeeded in finding them other roles in the church and/or its music, but I admit to one very painful failure. It happens. And I have myself been on the receiving end, twice. The world did not end.

We do want to be fair, but only because unfairness disempowers Wikipedians. It's not an end in itself, and sometimes it needs to be compromised. It happens. Andrewa (talk) 15:37, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

One minor point... if one or both continues, there's still the option of a stronger community ban rather than going to ARBCOM. And I think both parties should be made aware that this is a possibility. Andrewa (talk) 14:57, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

IBan

There is support above for a two-way IBan, and no dissension as yet.

There was also support previously for a one-way IBan... a nominator and one supporter that I can see, I may have missed others, but this did not proceed further. Neither the nominator nor supporter of this earlier proposal have commented on the two-way proposal. And there are some other comments but no concrete proposal, pointing out that one of them has been IBanned before and that the results were not good.

There is a comment that an IBan would need to include article space... it does. Editors subject to an interaction ban are not permitted to... undo each other's edits to any page, whether by use of the revert function or by other means (Wikipedia:Banning policy#Interaction ban, my emphasis)

A no-fault two-way interaction ban is often a quick and painless way to prevent a dispute from causing further distress or wider disruption. (Wikipedia:Banning policy#Interaction ban)

Other opinions? Or, relevant discussion I may have missed? Andrewa (talk) 21:40, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

No details

I have no time for details, and hate the words aggressor. I started An Wasserflüssen Babylon, and asked Mathsci to help. Why Francis came in, split part of the (by then expanded) article to make it one of his, and then said it's unstable, I will not be able to understand. Just look at the DYK nomination. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:32, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

To be precise, FS started that article as a redirect, you turned it into an article, and FS started working on that article as well some 30 minutes after you started working on it. No idea where or when you asked Mathsci to help, but your reply gives the impression that FS only noted the article after you asked Mathsci to help, when in reality they had created it and started working on it immediately when you did, while Mathsci's first edit to the article was more than a week later. Fram (talk) 20:47, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

For all other purposes: making a redirect a real article is considered a new article, unless we split hairs. Francis made probably hundreds of such redirects for hymns, which I don't like because the reader gets disappointed arriving just in the middle of some author's hymnal when expecting information of a hymn. - I'm ready to forget the below. Drmies and Boing! said Zebedee helped in such situations (on top of others who are no admins). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:13, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

"Splitting hairs"? Not really. Your post gave the impression that FS started editing that article after you (and probably because you) asked Mathsci to help. You have not indicated where and when you asked Mathsci to help, making it hard to verify your claim, but in any case itis not unreasonable to assume, given that he had created the redirect and that he arrived at the article 30 minutes after your first edit (and a week before Mathscis first edit), that he actually simply had the article on his watchlist, and that this has nothing to do with FS following Mathsci. Fram (talk) 09:18, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

(ec) I didn't say anything about when Francis came in, and think it doesn't even matter. Factual corrections are one thing, and fine, but making massive changes (including making part of the article that Mathsci wrote a new article), and then complaining about "unstable", is not fair. - It would have worked to suggest a split, and let Mathsci decide to do that, or not. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:22, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

It would have been easy to check my talk for "Wasserflüsse", no? Possible DYK for nice image. Sometimes I ask Francis, but never both. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:32, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I checked on their talk page, which seemed the logical place to find a request from you to Mathsci. Thanks for providing the link. Fram (talk) 09:39, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I am an informal person, and don't remember any "formal" request for help here, ever. Mathsci came to my talk with a (new) DYK suggestion, and as part of the reply, I mentioned the DYK (which had been nominated then), saying that additions were welcome as long as they are sourced. If you have time, read the discussion, for a spirit of collaboration. - I thank Voceditenore for the analysis above, - I forgot some unpleasant details and want to keep it that way. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:47, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

A short illustration of why I rather not ask Francis (whose expertise on the topics is beyond doubt) is here, short and recent: I ask the relevant project neutrally what members think of his tags on a specific article, and get accused of forum-shopping. ([32], [33], among others). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:04, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Note that FS also has a record of following Gerda to articles she has written and creating disruption, irrespective of Mathsci's participation. His behaviour on Christ lag in Todesbanden, BWV 4 and its talk page in April–May 2016 is a particularly egregious example, but not an isolated one. Gerda and another editor (not Mathsci) brought the article to Featured status in March 2016. One month after its promotion FS showed up and started making swingeing changes to the content with no prior discussion [34]. This included unilaterally moving the page to a new title [35] and edit-warring [36], [37] to keep it there. Gerda objected to the page move and participated in the post hoc discussion on the talk page but Francis refused to participate any further in that discussion after less than a day and then unilaterally closed it. Instead of initiating a proper requested move discussion with wider participation, he festooned the article with maintenance tags and said he was taking it to FAR with the intent of getting it demoted because it was "unstable" [38]. The FAR was closed as out of process but he continued his bulldozing. On the talk page he copied editors' comments on other talk pages with their signatures, misleadingly refactoring them as he saw fit, and failing to provide links to the original context [39]. By 20 May the article was still festooned with tags and virtually all of its previous editors, including its main editor had been driven away. Its talk page became an unreadable mess and a place where FS talked only to himself. It finally came to an end when Brianboulton (at the time one of the TFA coordinators) archived the discussions and removed all the maintenance tags from the article [40]. It is a similar tactic FS used at the recent DYK nomination for An Wasserflüssen Babylon, which I will analyse in The details above in a few minutes. Voceditenore (talk) 08:55, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

The conclusion of this section seems to me to be that both contributors exhibit problematic behaviour, and that there is at best a far weaker consensus as to which of them is the worse. I repeat my observation that both are passionately here to build an encyclopedia and that both contribute a great deal of time, energy and competence towards that goal, and will now add that we seem to have consensus on that.

...or if severe in aught, The love he bore to learning was in fault. ref Andrewa (talk) 20:27, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Just noting that Francis Schonken hasn't edited in a few days, and therefore hasn't been heard from in this discussion. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:06, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

His last edit was four days ago. [41] But this discussion has been going on for over a month, and he was informed of it both by pinging him here and as required on his talk page, and he has yet to respond here at all, or have I missed it?

If I haven't missed it, then his not responding here is because he doesn't wish to do so, not because he's (more recently) on a Wikibreak. Andrewa (talk) 00:28, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

• On 6 August 2016 Mathsci agreed to a series of unblock conditions, including (in Mathsci's own words):
  • I would be far more careful not to overreact.
  • I would state problems with edits dispassionately and carefully avoid any personal comments about editors.
  • I would be careful to show that my edits on talk pages are there to help other editors as much as to discuss improvements to the article.
  • I would strenuously avoid giving the appearance of belittling other editors with different skills.
  • ... I don't edit articles on controversial topics.
  • When there are content problems that require expertise (knowledge of mathematics, knowledge of organ playing, knowledge of French) I would be careful to speak dispassionately about the problems and strenuously avoid belittling other editors.

... which didn't work out (see recent examples above). This could be handled by taking note that Mathsci didn't keep to his unblock conditions, and reblock. I'm open to finding a more suitable solution than (blunt) block. It is a pity that Mathsci seems somehow impervious to one-way IBAN (if I understand the above correctly), but I don't want to be a victim of that by seeing an IBAN imposed on me. I have collaborated with Mathsci constructively, and the encyclopedia (mainspace) has improved as a result. Discussions can be rough, but in the end this may result in an improved article (e.g. List of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach printed during his lifetime). There's only one way to make that work though, that is: more or less strict adherence to behavioural policies and guidelines, including very strict adherence to WP:TPG. I've had little support on this approach, including by Newyorkbrad, Softlavender, Johnuniq, and Bishonen (someone I personally have in higher esteem than the three previous editors taken together). Newyorkbrad, Softlavender and Johnuniq have sometimes led by bad example instead of by good example, the bad example then later being followed by Mathsci – which is a pity and one of the reasons that brought us here. --Francis Schonken (talk) 01:52, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Nobody wants to be IBanned, or to IBan anyone else. But in terms of improving Wikipedia, what exactly would a two-way, no-fault IBan cost you, apart from the perceived insult? There are others who can keep an eye on Bach articles.

Or, would it help if we excluded my user talk page from the IBan, as I proposed once before? (And maybe even seek a few more volunteers for this.) Andrewa (talk) 04:17, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

It's good to have Francis Schonken contribute here, but rather than laying more charges on Mathsci, I'm much more interested in their response to the various behavioral charges that have been laid on them by other editors in this thread. Editors such as myself who are not very familiar with the conflict between these two editors, and who do not have a "side" to buttress or defend, need to hear both sides, and the value of Schonken being here is for us hear their POV about their own behavior, since we have already heard charges against Mathsci and Mathsci's response to them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:34, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Also, and this is simply a personal opinion, slagging off Newyorkbrad and other editors in such a fashion as Schonken does here does not "play" very well to a neutral audience intent on evaluating Schonken's Wiki-behavior, as well as that of Mathsci. Their choice to do so as part of their first response to this AN is, to say the least, concerning. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:38, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

It is of course a flagrant breach of wp:NPA. But in practice, I'm afraid that is no longer a policy, and it would be unreasonable (I first said "unfair" but I'd better be consistent myself) to expect FS to abide by it when many admins do not, and escape all censure. Andrewa (talk) 07:04, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

(ec x2) @Andrewa: did you ever collaborate constructively with Mathsci, resulting in an improved article? Throw fairness out of the window, replacing it by sympathies ("... some of us sympathise more with Francis Schonken and some with Mathsci ...")? I'm not soliciting sympathies: what is best for the encyclopedia, is best for me too – mulling over old grudges (I hardly remember details of when I last interacted with you), is however hardly something that seems best for the encyclopedia imho.

I once had a long conversation with Gerda on someone else's user talk page, which settled most of the tensions between us, so that we can collaborate fairly constructively in most circumstances (e.g. "Ein Lämmlein geht und trägt die Schuld" DYK). If something like that could happen with Mathsci, I'd be more than happy: it's at least in part up to the community now to discriminate whether that could be attempted. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:06, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: I agree with most of what Fram said above, however not with "... both have a long history of ... being too focused on each other ..." (my emphasis), at least not from my side. Mathsci has a very unhealthy obsession for me, at least, that's my POV (since you were asking to "hear [my] POV about [my] own behavior"). Other than POV, I'd of course be prepared to give diffs and/or explain my diffs if they would be prone to misunderstanding. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:06, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

In response primarily to Beyond My Ken, but really to the rest of you as well re "both sides" and their participation here. At a particularly lengthy and fraught ANI episode involving these two editors, but primarily FS, I wrote:

"You have a lot to offer. Your edits are often very valuable and you are clearly dedicated to improving Wikipedia. But you do that at the expense of exhausting and driving off equally valuable editors from articles and making talk page discussions intolerable. Yes, improving the Bach articles is important but so is common courtesy, cooperation, and respect for your colleagues. I know it's not easy to find several editors criticising you in a public forum, but I encourage you to reflect a bit on what we're saying. If you don't, I'm afraid you'll end up here again and again."

FS failed to do so and instead concentrated there on attacking other editors and trying to lay all blame on everyone else. He is exhibiting the same behaviour here so far. I too hope he now changes his tactics, but it seems unlikely. That ANI resulted in him being restricted to one revert per page in any calendar month. The restriction lasted 6 months and applied to all pages except his own user and user talk pages. It brought blessed relief to those of editing in the classical music area. However, once the restriction ended, he returned to his previous practices. Ditto Mathsci's promises when he was unblocked after making egregious personal attacks in another topic area that same year [42].

What we have here are two different "styles" of dealing with conflict and indeed creating it. Both are equally disruptive to the rest of us. Both demonstrate a spectacular lack of self-awareness. Francis never makes egregious personal attacks (only persistent and veiled ones, including ones in this very discussion), but can be so severely tendentious that he drives other editors (not just Mathsci) away from some topics and creates a simply awful atmosphere. When Mathsci becomes personally or emotionally invested in a topic, he finds it nigh on impossible to stop writing enormous walls of text which simply replicate content arguments rather than seeking a solution to behavioural issues, including his own. As in the most recent case, these can soon degenerate into very egregious personal attacks. His approach likewise creates a simply awful atmosphere. This would be a "no blame" 2-way IBan. It has the potential to bring a bit of peace and quiet to us all. However, unless both of these editors seriously reflect on what's being said here, it may be only temporary and ultimately result in a loss of editing privileges for both of them. Voceditenore (talk) 09:30, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Agree. Andrewa (talk) 12:53, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

... talk about regurgitating stale business: FYI, I was sanctioned in the 2016 ANI episode (BTW, you were the third to link to it from this discussion), I soaked it in as closed, lived by the imposed rules, learnt a few lessons and moved on. It is rather characteristic for me to play the blame game as little as possible (I can't recognise myself in "concentrated there on attacking other editors and trying to lay all blame on everyone else"). Doesn't mean everyone can steam-roll over me, and I think that at ANI an open discussion is often most useful in the long run. I'd rather say I wasn't open enough in that 2016 discussion. I've since been back at ANI some times (not always in the role of accused), and it all passed fairly well, again, lessons learnt, some evolution, etc. Describing that as falling back to previous behaviour seems at least a bit unfair (or, engrained in stolid sympathies/antipathies if you like that description better). At Template:Did you know nominations/An Wasserflüssen Babylon, I tried to do Gerda a favour by offering my services after the DYK seemed (again) to have ground down in immobility. That's my current behaviour, and I'm open to see it analysed. Yes I made an error there and then: I should have taken Mathsci to AN3, for others to assess, after they removed my talk page comment (addressed at Gerda!) a few times in less than half an hour, and then again, after Gerda had replied to it.

I obviously can't talk for Mathsci. I can talk about how I experience them: their behaviour seems again tangentially coming closer to the place that got them a few long-term blocks. In short, I don't think the bolded "Both" brings us nearer to a solution today (even if it ever would have). WP:AN participants, I think you can do better than that. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:02, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

In my view, what went on at An Wasserflüssen Babylon and Template:Did you know nominations/An Wasserflüssen Babylon, which precipitated the current discussion and which I have analysed in detail in the previous section, illustrates exactly the same problems in the 2016 incident. I note that the "offer of your services" has not been responded to by Gerda nor has she further edited the article she created. I can't say that I blame her for walking away and I consider both you and Mathsci responsible for that outcome. You are of course entitled to you own opinion of what went on there. I'll let others decide. Voceditenore (talk) 16:28, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Agree.

And that is not an unusual outcome when violations of WP:NPA occur. The most spectacular case that I have yet seen was the involvement of User:Viktor van Niekerk with trying to warn myself and Janet Marlow (not the runner by that name) away from the ten-string guitar page. Viktor and Janet are arguably (and in my opinion) the two most significant ten-string guitarists now living, and both were once Wikipedians, contributing to guitar related articles (naturally). However Viktor is passionate about promoting the original tuning of the ten-string classical guitar, while Janet uses a different tuning. Over a period of time Viktor repeatedly attacked Janet (and me) with increasing venom and he was eventually indeffed, but it took a while, and meantime Janet quietly left. Had we taken earlier action to address Viktor's personal attacks we would IMO certainly have retained Janet, and quite possibly Viktor as well, we will never know.

My point in saying all that is that we can easily underestimate the damage done by personal attacks. Andrewa (talk) 05:20, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

What a bad breath. Voceditenore and Andrewa, could you please stop your wild accusations? This starts to reflect very badly on both of you. I have nothing to do with User:Viktor van Niekerk, nor with ten-string classical guitar articles. "Mathsci went on to increasingly bizarre and totally unacceptable personal attacks on FS", that far I agree with Voceditenore, but that doesn't implicate me for anything. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:16, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Copyvios from Bostonbruinsfan22

Bostonbruinsfan22 (talk · contribs)

• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Charlie_McAvoy&action=history
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danton_Heinen&action=history

I just noticed I did my third revert. (not really though, I improved the image on Commons so the third time I put it back it was quite a different image) I suspect 74.12.161.95 is just Bostonbruinsfan22 but logged out. The image they keep putting back is an obvious copyvio. The user is also problematic on Commons. Next time they put it back I can't revert it anymore so this needs to end.

Warnings on their talk page at Commons, warnings here, they are completely deaf.

..and the IP reverted it again and I'm out of reverts. Great. Ok, Wikipedia:Edit warring#The three-revert rule exemption 5 covers copyright violations. Good. Reverted them again. Alexis Jazz (talk) 07:11, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• And this is just vandalism. (unless it automatically goes blank if you try to revert to an image that doesn't exist, because their copyvios have been deleted from Commons.. it doesn't do that, does it?) Alexis Jazz (talk) 08:51, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Massive backlog at WP:SPI

There are cases that have been open for over three months, and some that haven't been commented on for over two. The CUs have been responding fairly quickly, but not every case involves CUs, and either way SPI still needs admin patrollers to finish things up. ansh666 08:03, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Standard offer unblock appeal from User:MassiveYR

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Pasted from user's talkpage:

Per Standard offer. It has been slightly more than six months without any sockpuppetry and block evasion. I was blocked for the use multiple accounts which violates Wikipedia's policies. However a block is no longer necessary because I understand what I have been blocked for and I will not continue to cause damage or disruption to the Wikipedia community. I intend to edit constructively and get back to Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting, WP:AFC and reverting vandalism while abiding by WP:COI, WP:PAID, and WP:PROMO. Thank you.MassiveYR ♠

CU reveals no other edits from user's current IP address (other data is too stale to check). This SPI archive may be of interest when considering unblocking. Please indicate below whether you would support or oppose an unblock at this time. Yunshui ^雲_水 11:30, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. We shouldn't unblock a promotional sock farm for any reason. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 12:42, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose I concur with Rob - this sockfarm sprawled all over the place and there was evidently major meatpuppetry going on - not just "friends" as MassiveYR claimed in a previous unblock request. SmartSE (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. Undisclosed native advertising and sockpuppetry are both egregiously dishonest and unethical activities that are fundamentally incompatible with being a Wikipedian. Why should we believe a word they say? And how can we tell they're not using proxies? MER-C 13:58, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• Under no circumstances TonyBallioni (talk) 14:13, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - definitely not. There's evidence the account is part of a large spam operation involving numerous individuals, which has gone to significant lengths to conceal their promotional activities. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:16, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose No explanation of what MassiveYR is going to do, if that they(??) are unblocked. The trust isn't there. talk to !dave 14:34, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose per all the above, a bad idea. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:27, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose when a promo editor names AFC as an area they intend to focus on, not help that project needs. Legacypac (talk) 23:07, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC Enforcability of logged editing restrictions

An RfC has been opened about whether voluntary editing restrictions logged at WP:Editing restrictions#Voluntary can be enforced in the same was as those logged at WP:Editing restrictions#Placed by the Wikipedia community. Your input would be appriciated.

The RfC is located at WP:Enforceability of logged voluntary editing restrictions Jbh ^Talk 06:27, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Creation of "Ryan Hampton (author)"

No means no. MER-C 09:15, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Page name of "Ryan Hampton (author)" is banned and only admin has ability to create. Subject exceeds notability requirements. See here: https://g.co/kgs/Y5SkD7. Can an admin create this page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.234.112.166 (talk) 08:20, 7 June 2018 (UTC) That article title has been blacklisted due to repeated disruption and sockpuppetry (see, for example, Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive296#Ryan Hampton (Author)). clpo13(talk) 08:27, 7 June 2018 (UTC) check the notability. not attempting to create or edit page. asking for admin to evaluate subject "ryan hampton (author)" - subject should be listed in wikipedia historically. hampton is a highly notable public figure in america. previous sockpuppetry shouldn't disqualify a legitimate article on notable public figure. block is keeping a highly visible and controversial author from inclusion on wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.234.112.166 (talk) 08:39, 7 June 2018 (UTC) MER-C Subject is a bestselling author and lead authority on the opioid epidemic with notable news sources from all major networks, profiles in major U.S. newspapers including the NYT, Wall Street Journal, etc. How is this not acceptable for creation of an article for editors to begin building? His work is credited in numerous credible academic journals as well. he also holds elected office in southern california. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.234.112.166 (talk) 00:45, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Error

I moved a page in error and I would like to ask an administrator to revert this move.

I moved Structure of the Hellenic Air Force to Hellenic Air Force Order of Battle.

Please return the article to Structure of the Hellenic Air Force, so I can then update it. Thank you, noclador (talk) 08:45, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

@Noclador:  Done While I have your attention, hopefully the updating will including adding some references, as the article is unsourced at present. Cheers, Fish+Karate 09:01, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. And the lack of references was one of the reasons I did an update of the structure. All the info is from the website of the Hellenic Air Force and I added 8 inline citations to the respective organizational sections on the air force's website. cheers, noclador (talk) 10:54, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Awesome, good work. Fish+Karate 14:28, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

I need help reviewing a Global RFC

Dear admins, I am preparing a Global Request for Comments about financial support for admins that might be relevant for you .

Can you please review the draft and give me some feedback about how to improve it? Thank you.

MassMessage sent by Micru on 18:00, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I'll say it: I both expect and hope this proposal doesn't have any chance whatsoever of gaining support. There are nearly-impossible problems with both finding funding to pay editors, and the inevitable cultural shifts having an official paid editing/admin corps would cause. Throwing new-age mumbo-jumbo a seed group of volunteers would be selected by a commitee based on self-reported acts of wisdom ... This seed group of volunteers, composed by at least 3 people, but no more than 8[3], would be tasked to cultivate their deep listening in as well makes it completely unworkable in my opinion. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:55, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Lebanon ECP AE review

Recently an AE request that I closed determined that the country of Jordan as a whole was not reasonably construed to be covered by the committee imposed general restrictions for the Arab-Israeli conflict (30/500, 1RR, and 24 hour restriction of a contested edit by the person making the edit). I thought it would be good to review other articles on Middle Eastern countries that were under ECP to see where they stood.

Lebanon is the first I've looked at, but I think it is similar to Jordan in that while conflict with Israel does exist, the article as a whole is not about this, and as such it doesn't fall into the narrower "reasonably construed" framework. Consistent with the AE consensus re: Jordan, I'm proposing that: Extended confirmed protection be removed from Lebanon and the Arab-Israeli 1RR page notice be removed. Pinging @Sandstein, GoldenRing, RegentsPark, and Seraphimblade: as the admins other than myself who commented on that AE. TBallioni (talk) 18:26, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

• Support this is a case where we have to be reasonable in the reasonably construed. Vast majority of the page doesn't have to do with the conflict. Galobtter (pingó mió) 18:35, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Just as a note: yes, this sanction is reasonably construed, not broadly construed like most ArbCom sanctions. In other words, while it is still relatively broad, it is much narrower than the usual sanctions either the community or ArbCom authorize. TBallioni (talk) 18:38, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support per my previous statements that while AE 500/30 should be used freely, it should not be used automatically. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:01, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
• Comment why not just remove it from all countries? All countries involved are related to each other through conflict, but the top level country articles don't generally revolve around the conflict. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:47, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Because some countries/national entities absolutely should not be removed. Israel and the State of Palestine are 100% within these restrictions in my view as examples. Other Middle Eastern countries may be both depending on article content and real world events. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:30, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support for Lebanon as well, for the same reasons that I outlined for Jordan at the AE request. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:47, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support I agree with NeilN on not using this automatically. --regentspark (comment) 19:49, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
• Neither support or oppose. The issue is with content which is reasonably construed to be within the terms of the sanction, NOT with articles per se. By noting specific articles as "safe" it opens the system to gaming, and if we leave it intentionally open on this issue, it is more useful. While not every edit to articles about Jordan and Lebanon would necessarily fall within the purview of the sanction, some are, and we should be assessing edits and not articles for such sanctions. While some of the sanctions (for example 30/500) are clearly applied per article, I worry about giving people license to disrupt in these articles; or contrariwise, overapplication of the sanctions when the edits are not germane to the conflict at hand. More nuance is needed here. --Jayron32 04:23, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

@Jayron32: While I might agree that more nuance would be good here, nonetheless all of the sanctions in question (the general 1RR restriction and the general prohibition) are applied per-page, the latter being enforced by extended-confirmed protection. There is therefore a need to interpret the committee's "reasonably construed" language to decide whether protection should be applied to these pages or not - if it's not, then any non-extended-confirmed editor should be allowed to edit those pages, even if the edit would fall under ARBPIA DS; if it is, then non-extended-confirmed editors will be excluded from editing these articles, even if their edits have nothing to do with the PIA topic. I favour excluding these articles from the restrictions; imagine being a new Jordanian or Lebanese editor, wanting to improve the article about your country, but oh, no, you can't because of some unrelated conflict between editors. To my mind, Lebanon is somewhat closer to the line than Jordan, but it's still not over it. GoldenRing (talk) 10:09, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

And imagine the same if United States was ECP'd and put under WP:1RR. It certainly has played a significant part in the conflict. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 11:52, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

• Support removing ECP from Lebanon, per my comments above. It does make me slightly nervous, for the reasons stated above; to the extent that these articles do touch on the Arab-Israeli conflict, excluding them from the "reasonably construed" language means that non-EC editors are allowed to edit them - the general prohibition applies to pages, not edits. Nonetheless, I think these countries are outside the "reasonably construed" standard (but within the "broadly construed" test). GoldenRing (talk) 10:13, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
  • GoldenRing (you're getting all the pings from me this morning!) I'd agree. As I mentioned above, I am opposed to blanket removal of this from all countries (Israel and the State of Palestine are most certainly covered by these in my view), but most of the other Arab countries probably aren't. The two right now that appear to be ECP are Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. I decided to test consensus generally with Lebanon first, and if this is removed, I'll likely talk to the protecting admin about the Saudi article. I think this needs to be a case by case thing, but having gone through the Middle East, I think currently only having two national entities fall under the committee imposed sanctions makes sense, but also realize this could change in the future (i.e. if a hot war between Lebanon and Israel emerges, etc.) TonyBallioni (talk) 14:07, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Iran is also under the restriction for some reason Galobtter (pingó mió) 19:43, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
      • I’ll talk to the protecting admin about it. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:53, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
• Not completely related to this topic, but I think it's not the best practice and against protection principles to pre-emptively apply page protections on pages with no recent history of disruption simply because the page may fall into the scope of "broadly defined" of an arbitration decision. Alex Shih (talk) 14:22, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support. This isn't the Lebanese-Israeli conflict; these is the Arab-Israeli conflict, and unless you're going to argue that all Arabic countries are involved (including Morocco, Oman, and Sudan), you can't say that Lebanon is necessarily involved. There's no history of all Lebanon being especially closely involved (this isn't the Palestinian Authority), any more than Jordan or Egypt. Sanctions could reasonably be placed on articles about southern Lebanon, e.g. the area occupied by Israel for some years there, but not the whole country. Protection can always be put back if disruption resume. And also, support per NeilN; I can't imagine someone seriously asking that the United States be included in this. Nyttend (talk) 01:12, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

User Pahlevun long term issues with POV pushing

• Pahlevun

Currently using false/deceptive edit summaries to remove sources that have been reviewed as reliable. Previously warned to stop disruptive editing, recently warned about BLP violation, has been in a number of edit wars/conflicts in the last few years for WP:NPOVD about pro-Iran topics.

Is this an issue? or should this be taken up elsewhere? I noticed Pahlevun has been reported here before but don't think anything came out of it. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 07:35, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

• It definitely looks like a content dispute to me, primarily at People's Mujahedin of Iran. Nothing actionable here. — kashmīrī ^TALK 07:57, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

• Seems to be a recurring theme with Iran topics:. I haven't had time to look for more, but there are more. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 09:16, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

References

• At least when it comes to the People's Mujahedin of Iran, Pahlevun has consistently pushed the mainstream view of the MeK that is found in reliable sources; namely, that the group is a dishonest cult reviled in its home country for siding with Saddam Hussein during the Iran–Iraq War. It is the pro-MeK side that has engaged in a systematic assault on Wikipedia's content policies, including large-scale sockpuppetry. I am less familar with Pahlevun's editing history in other topic areas, but in this major case he has acted with considerable restraint despite provocations.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 09:35, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

• EC: In fact, it seems that, if anything, Stefka Bulgaria should be sanctioned for his conduct regarding this RSN thread and this disputed edit; Stefka Bulgaria is engaged in citekill and edit warring using FRINGE and self-published sources to paint a rosy picture of the MeK that cannot be found in the academic literature.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 10:25, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

• Stefka Bulgaria continues to edit war at National Council of Resistance of Iran despite a clear lack of consensus for his proposed change at RSN.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 10:31, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

• What we do in Wikipedia is resume from reliable sources, that is all we do. Pahlevun keeps reverting a statement on People's Mujahedin of Iran backed by several scholarly RS, including Abrahamian(1989) - a source throughly used within the article. This is pushing a POV, and as noted above, this has been recurring within several other Iran-related articles.Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 10:22, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

• A 1989 source should not be used for sweeping generalizations about the political situation in Iran in 2018.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 10:25, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

• More recent reliable sources have also been provided. There is no substance to your argument. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 10:30, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

• I would not use Con Coughlin as source for contentious "facts" stated in wikivoice. Please stop edit warring and observe WP:BRD.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 10:33, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

•  Comment: What about taking all of this to Talk:People's Mujahedin of Iran? — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:13, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

• I would agree with that. I don't think there's anything actionable in this complaint against Pahlevun.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:32, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

The Troubles: Motion

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

The Arbitration Committee clarifies the following: All sanctions placed under remedy 3.2 of The Troubles prior to its replacement with remedy 5 are considered discretionary sanctions. Specifically, the 1RR sanction affecting the topic area is considered a form of page restriction placed as a discretionary sanction, and the additional awareness requirements regarding page restrictions apply.

For the Arbitration Committee, Miniapolis 15:03, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Original announcement

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#The Troubles: Motion

Unblock Request by User:M.A. Martin

User:M.A. Martin was blocked indefinitely in January 2018 as not here to edit constructively. They have requested an unblock. In doing so, they pinged a large number of editors, some of whom are not administrators but only AFC reviewers, including me. I made the apparent mistake of replying, and wasn't particularly positive, but neither recommended an unblock nor recommended declining the unblock. It seems that more than 48 hours later there hasn't been an administrative reply to their unblock request, maybe because a non-admin responded (non-conclusively). Will an administrator please take a look at their request?

(I don't think that they have made a compelling unblock request, but five months is close enough to six months that a standard offer might be in order.) Robert McClenon (talk) 02:26, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

• It’s in CAT:RFU. Someone will get to it. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:21, 9 June 2018 (UTC)