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User talk:Joejoebilly

Resolved

Look at that. And his contribs! The has repetedly recreated Pandapede and has been warned for it. User should be blocked. —Coastergeekperson04^{'s talk}@11/27/2007 04:18

User:Pegasus got him. east.718 at 04:34, November 27, 2007

Signed to allow archiving. MaxSem^{(Han shot first!)} 08:17, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Community ban of spammer

Moved to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Webgeek because this is 38kb of wikitext, 201kb post-expand, and literally half the rendered page.'

Executive summary: Webgeek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and numerous IPs added many links to sites apparently run by him. —Random832 19:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Futuristic timestamp to keep this from getting archived by the bot: 23:59, 31 December 2037 (UTC)

Rex Germanus

I'm getting quite fed up with User:Rex Germanus. Since I'm definitely not neutral on this (involved gradually in different editing disputes with him), I am bringing this here for general consideration (since the CSN board is closed down), to see what (if anything) should be done.

Since his return from a month long block on November 13, Rex has continued his disruptive behaviour, but is now supported by a number of IP adresses, including 145.93.125.93, 145.93.123.60, 145.93.126.83 and 145.93.124.84, all coming from Fontys Hogescholen. I have no idea if this is a sock- or meatpuppet, but it makes the situation even worse.

Problems are: asking for references without ever providing some themselves (e.g. on Dutchland[1], West Flemish[2], or Van Beethoven family[3]). Instead of replacing German with Dutch, his new topic is replacing Flemish with Dutch, even when it is incorrect, as in Jean Bart[4]. He moved Dunkirkers to Dunkirk Raiders, and was unwilling to consider that he was wrong even when presented with references, and (again) without presenting any counterreferences himself, only his assertions (see User Talk:Rex Germanus#Dunkirkers). In these and other discussions, his (and the IP's) discussion and edit summaries where very often uncivil and personal, and very rarely constructive. Talk:West Flemish#Y vs. IJ is a good illustration of this.

Finally, edits like this one[5] are to me unacceptable.

This is a complicated situation in which I am a party, but I seriously doubt if Rex has changed a bit since his last block, and if he is beneficial to Wikipedia. I have not issued any formal warnings, since (coming from me) they would probably only inflame the situation, instead of helping. Fram (talk) 10:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Since he's been warned off editing German topics, Rex certainly seems to have acquired a bee in his bonnet about all things Flemish. The disruption is at a much lower intensity than before, but it's still there. --Folantin (talk) 10:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

All edits made displayed here where either because I had (better) sources or because others lacked them. I stand by all of them.

'Disrupted Topic' according to Fram:

Jean Bart: Being Dutch-born, ethnic sense, (Dunkirk being almost completely etnically Dutch at the time of his birth) doesn't say anything about nationality; the source of your confusion as noted in your edits.

Dunkirkers: Explained at my talkpage, point of concern? 'Dunkirkers' also refers to people from Dunkirk in general. Simple as that.

Van Beethoven Family: In the Beethoven question, which I've dropped as announced on the talk page) I proved my point that Flemish meant Dutch in beethovens time (and his ancestors times). Fran/Folentin demanded something more specific (what could cover my point more I ask myself). If that's 'not ever providing sources' then I don't know what that is.

For example Another false accusation to add to my list. I do use sources, more than any of the people mentioned above. This report to me is just a clear example of how these people try to push their changes on wikipedia without referencing. A small step from unfounded opinions, to personal attacks and allegations and now ... and attempt to block or similar. Sad, if you think you're right, go to library and find out for sure.Rex (talk) 15:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, I deny all accusations made by Erik Warmelink who accuses me of using sock/meatpuppets. I have never used them and never will. Just because an IP (I assume it is the same person) disagrees with you and supports me doesn't make it a sock, it just makes 2 vs 1.Rex (talk) 15:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Well then, quote the starting 10 words of the entry on "beethof" on http://www.etymologie.nl/ (I get: Lemma niet gevonden! Dit deel van het Etymologisch Woordenboek van …, crude translation: Lemma not found! This part of the etymological glossary of …), give a reliable source that links "van Beethoven" with Beets or the Betuwe, give a source that "van Beethoven" was ever used as a familyname in the Netherlands, give a reliable source that "proves" that Flemish meant Dutch in Beethovens time. Just because several IPs agree with you, doesn't make them socks; if all they do is agreeing with you (even repeating your accusation that I would lie) and reverting to your versions (without interwiki's that were added and with spelling errors that were corrected), appearances are against you. Also explain this edit summary. Erik Warmelink (talk) 16:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I invite everyone to look at the edits linked, and compare them with the actual statements by Rex Germanus. E.g. the Van Beethoven family edit I linked has nothing to do with the Flemish vs. Dutch dispute, and Rex Germanus ignores the other, more recent pages listed (e.g. Dutchland is a very nice example, and West Flemish, where Rex Germanus makes even this evening clearly invalid statements on the talk page[6]). Perhaps Rex uses sources, but he certainly doesn't provide them. Fram (talk) 21:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Do not confuse yourself with me. I do provide sources. Look at Dutch people, over 110 references, nearly all added by me, I know how to reference.Rex (talk) 10:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

You have not provided sources for any of the disputes mentioned here: I'm glad that you know how to do it, but that doesn't excuse your behaviour in the last month. Why do you say here that "some people love fights" while going from a more to a less correct page?[7]. Why do you make such clearly invalid statements like this one?[8] Why did you change from one unsourced spelling to another unsourced one[9], but then accuse me of OR when I provide an independent but unreliable source (which of course is not OR at all), while not providing any source at all to support your version?[10] And why are you so uncivil in nearly all your edits and edit summaries (when you use them)? Fram (talk) 13:37, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

What's less correct Fram? Explain that to me. That note on West Flemish is really a cry for help for your behavior. Your 'arguments' were/are completely discredited on talk and still you revert to your version. Also you did not, hence no links, in the entire West Flemish discussion provide any reference. So don't make it seem you did.Rex (talk) 14:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Good grief, are we still dealing with this guy? How many kilobytes of AN and ANI discussion have been devoted to his antics? When is enough provocation enough? Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Keep your good griefs to yourself and focus on what's presented, not how many times a name comes up on a page you happen to watch.Rex (talk) 00:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd move for a ban to stop Rex wasting any more of our time. He's just a Dutch nationalist logic-chopper with a grudge against Germans and, now it seems, the Flemish. --Folantin (talk) 09:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

You people can go on making more melodramatic comments here for as long as you want, in every case here I provided references, others did and an the contributions button will show anyone that Erik Warmelink started all this with his on purpose nonsense reverts. He even stated against an IP how much he hates me. Ridiculous. I'm off continuing referenced editing. Some of you ought to try that too sometimes.Rex (talk) 10:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

That's an interesting way to summarize I don't hate Rex Germanus and No, I don't hate Rex Germanus. Erik Warmelink (talk) 00:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This really is nonsense. If someone askes references? or if he is a little bit nationalistic? Dit kinse toch neet meer geluive. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 16:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Rex I have met you editing for over a year now, and most of it you have been engaged in one or more disputes. Although I have had my own disputes in that time, and made a comparable number of edits as you in that year, I have never been accused of any gross violation, no official complaint was ever listed against me. It cannot be only other editors bad-faith towards you that cause you being involved in so many formal procedures; it can only mean you are doing something wrong. Please consider this. Arnoutf (talk) 19:00, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

A clear cut example. The first adress of Erik Warmelink on talk was not a plea for his own version and why it was better, but a direct personal attack. A rant about how many blocks I've had. How do you see any good faith in that?Rex (talk) 19:44, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

From my POV, it started with this edit. My edit was after my additions[11][12] to Talk:Van Beethoven family#Meertens reference, which Rex Germanus ignored. Erik Warmelink (talk) 00:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Community ban discussion

Last time we discussed Rex Germanus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) on October 13, I blocked him for one month and suggested that further disruption should result in an indefinite block. Rex Germanus' long block log is strong evidence that he has worn out the community's patience. Before placing an indefinite block, I would like to run a checkuser to see if there is any sockpuppetry involved, and I'd also like to see a concise list of diffs showing disruption since the most recent block. - Jehochman ^Talk 19:58, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I have filed Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Rex Germanus, and here is a set of diffs that demonstrate edit warring if these IP's are in fact Rex Germanus: [13] [14] [15] [16] -- [17] [18] [19] [20] If not, there may be other evidence sufficient to justify a community ban. - Jehochman ^Talk 20:16, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Wie een hond wil slaan, vindt licht een stok. Go find your stick Jehochman. Surprise me.Rex (talk) 20:20, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you know anything about the IP editor(s) who have been supporting you in these content disputes? - Jehochman ^Talk 20:31, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Clearly they/he/she must be insane, rude and nationalistic assholes. Why else would the IP(s) support me? I can't even comprehend that myself, I can only imagine how you felt in all your biased glory when you saw them! Poor you. Rex (talk) 20:53, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• (ec) The checkuser result is "Possible". Given the identical point of view of the IP's and Rex Germanus, and the lack of technical evidence to the contrary, I am inclined to accept the assertions made by Fram (talk · contribs). Rex Germanus has apparently returned to his previous editing style which has resulted in approximately 15 different blocks, placed by diverse members of the Wikipedia admin corps. I think Rex Germanus has expended the community's patience and the time has come to ask him, politely but firmly, to leave the project. (add) Rude comments won't help your cause, Rex Germanus. - Jehochman ^Talk 21:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• This diff shows an IP removing properly sourced content, using an deceptive "Interwiki" edit summary: [21] The IP is Rex Germanus: [22] [23] - Jehochman ^Talk 22:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. And if that IP is Rex, we have at the very least a breach of the revert parole, as he repeated the same revert under his account the next day ([24], [25]). However, that IP is not from the same range as the others, from a university in Tilburg. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

(Unindent) Editing at home, school/work, and a cafe will result in different IPs. I think we should mainly consider the styles of editing, and the tone of Rex Germanus' comments on this very thread. - Jehochman ^Talk 23:01, 9 December 2007 (UTC) (Keep thread open. 22:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC))

To be fair the editor was simply importing material from the Dutch version of the same page - summarizing this as "interwiki" might not have been entirely bad faith. --Paularblaster (talk) 00:56, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, Rex was deleting material, and then as shown above, he subsequently repeated the edit with his own account the next day. This is evidence of gaming his revert parole. - Jehochman ^Talk 02:18, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The edit didn't import, it reverted to a previous version by Rex Germanus[26] and re-added cy:Ffleminiaid which was added[27] by User:AlleborgoBot (AlleborgoBot did add in alfabetical order, though). Erik Warmelink (talk) 16:37, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• I've been asked to comment here. I haven't had time to look into this in detail, but there does appear to be a case here for an indefinite block. Before supporting that, I'd like to ask if there is any case for a repeated one month block, or a longer block (with people watching out for block evasion) or a topic ban? The evidence above that Rex has been evading his revert parole should also be followed up. I'd also urge Rex (and others) to speak up if any of these blocks were inappropriate. Carcharoth (talk) 23:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Given the repeated incidents of revert warring and POV pushing, compounded by the use of IP accounts to evade scrutiny, proven in one case, and very likely in at least three other cases, plus incivility by Rex Germanus right here in this thread, I suggest a 1 year ban. We've had 15 prior blocks, but Rex Germanus hasn't gotten the message yet. It's time to protect our editors. - Jehochman ^Talk 14:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear Jehochman. You can stop stalling the block/bann process in order to make it seem fair to outsiders, I've beaten you to it. Have a nice life, or whatever you call it.Rex (talk) 16:36, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for blocking indefinitely here. Rex is a long-term problem editor, who has had multiple last chances, has sockpuppeted to avoid his parole, and has a net negative effect on Wikipedia in general. Neıl ☎ 16:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I've placed an indefinite block, and added the user account to Wikipedia:List of banned users#Banned by the Wikipedia community. If any administrator would like to refactor the block and ban, you have my permission to do so. - Jehochman ^Talk 17:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Good. --Folantin (talk) 17:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Fram (talk) 20:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Ambivalent. --Van helsing (talk) 20:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Ambivalent too. Arnoutf (talk) 23:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Good, considering the absence of the entry "beethof" on etymology.nl. Erik Warmelink (talk) 13:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I am in support of the ban. Bearian (talk) 22:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Since I might be willing to unblock Rex after the new year, he's not community banned just yet. I will not unblock Rex without Jehochman's agreement, nor without Rex's agreement to a broad topic ban, &c. All purely hypothetical. Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I am willing to support that solution. If Rex Germanus wishes to return, subject to editing restrictions that will keep him away from topics where he has had past problems, then he can be unblocked.- Jehochman ^Talk 11:50, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Not sure what the point of this is. The guy spent his credit here long, long ago. He's had umpteen chances already. He also claims to have left Wikipedia of his own accord. --Folantin (talk) 12:12, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Rex has both contributed positively and negatively to Wikipedia, with the former recently being more and more often overshadowed by the the latter. If Rex were willing to return, I'd strongly suggest a compulsory mentorship by an neutral and experienced administrator. His mentor then could help Rex reinforce his good behavior (i.e. his contributions) while providing an external check against the problematic one (i.e. POV and civility issues) - and, if necessary, in an emerging dispute, either support Rex and curb potential trolling and incivility or encourage Rex to back down (if he doesn't) - as this is Rex's weak point; his edits might be ok (even if not "correct") but instead of a quick and painless discussion, it quickly turns into a "my way or the highway" scenario where Rex won't accept that he might be wrong nor will back down. An experienced mentor with the power to repel trolls (he did manage to accumulate a number of enemies) might just help him get back and stay on the right path. CharonX/talk 16:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Rex has entirely exhausted my patience, and I suspect the community's as well. Ask yourselves - is this really an editor we need? For me, that's a resounding "NO". Moreschi ^{If you've written a quality article...} 16:22, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Without making any comments on the rest of this section, I am willing to mentor Rex if he is allowed back (which I am not saying *should* happen - I'm staying neutral). I am a new adminsitrator, and I feel up to the challenge. JERRY ^talk _contribs 01:42, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Death threats, privacy, telephone numbers

This is an alternate account. I am an administrator here on the Wikipedia. A checkuser may be performed on this account to verify the truthfulness of this statement but I do ask that the sockpuppeteer account name not be revealed except with my permission. This account is not a violation of WP:SOCK. In my time here, I have received numerous personal attacks and more than one threat of a lawsuit. More troublingly, I have received the occasional death threat. My real name and photograph has been posted on the attack sites, along with my location, though not my exact address. Recently, I have started receiving telephone calls that have their caller ID blocked. These are the typical "hang-up" calls and I am no longer answering the phone to numbers I do not already recognize. Occasionally, I get voice mails though these are always blank. I do not consider any of the death threats I have received to be at all serious. None that I am aware of were made by someone in the same country as me and I never had any reason to believe this was more significant than a teenage vandal ticked off because I blocked him or her. And it is entirely possible (indeed, almost certain) that these telephone calls which have started in the past week are entirely coincidental. I am less happy with my real name and location, along with stolen photographs that are quite possibly not fair-use, being posted on attack sites. I'm considering changing my telephone number. Is this worth the effort? What other steps should I be considering? --Okay Bignose (talk) 17:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Checkuser confirms the above does belong to an admin. Raul654 (talk) 00:37, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Jeez. Whats the point, honestly. I don't understand people sometimes. Honestly, I would suggest a wikibreak, at least in terms of your admin acct. Let the storm die down. Sad it has to come to that, but it is what it is.↔NMajdan•talk 17:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It's been done before to disappear from one account and then reappear as an admin under another account. I suggest you contact one of the higher authorities if you would like to regain your admin access while remaining anonymous. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 18:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, a user gaining admin access without an RfA would stand out like a sore thumb. If an admin is going to drop and come back, I'm afraid that they should work back through the ranks to become an admin again. Yes, it really sucks, but it's also the only way to avoid a red flag on the account. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. In two examples some people on a certain site were able to figure out which admin had recently disappeared and then compared the editing patterns to figure out who it was. Maybe you could continue making edits with both accounts to throw them off the scent, though that there's a very fine line on what kinds of edits are allowable.. hbdragon88 (talk) 01:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Talk to your telephone company about logging the calls (they record the details) and your local police for advice regarding the caller(s) - that is what you pay your taxes for - especially in conjunction with the death threats. Talk to the service provider about the site publicising your details; if they do not have permission from the copyright holder they should not be able to post your picture (unless it was released under GDFL) and they may be violating their terms of service in publishing your information without permission (same problem about GDFL, though) or in a manner which might cause you distress. The perhaps co-incidental receipt of the silent phone calls and death threats can be cited.

On-wiki, I suggest you WP:IGNORE/DENY, or take a break per Nmajdan. I wouldn't change account names - a new admin popping up without going through RfA is likely to attract attention, and there will not be that many recently inactive admins to sift through, from the off-Wiki sites. Sorry about your experiences, and I hope this has helped. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

If you aren't already in contact with WMF, please communicate with them. Also I'd be glad to talk to you under whatever account you wish. Suggest you set up a gmail account for use in connection with Wikipedia volunteering because your location can't be traced from the headers. Best regards, Durova^Charge! 23:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Please send email to me using your admin account. I am interested in this case, and I have some friends who are also interested. Guy (Help!) 23:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I'll contact the WMF in the next couple of days. EVula has a very good point, I talked to another admin who changed account names earlier this year and it didn't really do much to help protect his identity. For the record, I have never used an alternate account other than this one. I'll also start star-69'ing the dropped calls, though I doubt this will give me much information. Does that even work if the person only lets it ring once or twice and I don't pick up? To the best of my knowledge, my telephone number has never been posted in relation to my Wikipedia account, not anywhere. And I haven't had any hang-up calls today so hopefully it was all just a false alarm, though I am still concerned. I'll please ask people (including those off-wiki) not to speculate about my identity. I am sure I am not the only Wikipedia editor who has been in this situation. Also, while I am not thrilled with so-called attack sites posting my personal information or using pictures without my consent, I am far more concerned with what third parties do with that information. Anyway, if I choose to start editing with a new account, I will check with a couple of trusted people to make sure I am not being abusive. --Okay Bignose (talk) 02:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

You can refuse calls that are callerid blocked, I would contact your phone provider about that. Prodego ^talk 02:36, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

In the United States, at least, you can arrange a trap with the phone company if you get a civil restraining order. You'd document the exact time of each harassing call and you'd need to synchronize your own clock so it's accurate to the minute. I suggest you contact an expert for advice about the details. Durova^Charge! 02:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I thought the timing issue was a myth, and the phone company knows regardless of when the call was. Prodego ^talk 02:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a question of correlating particular events. In the past I've had two weeks of evidence tossed out by the police because my clock wasn't synchronized with official time. They probably could have correlated it rather easily by shifting all the data two or three minutes, but some people refused to take that effort. Some jurisdictions try any excuse to avoid paperwork. While I was filing a report once I saw a woman turned away even though she was reporting a death threat. A minute later I spoke to her outside, we compared the fine print on our restraining orders, and she marched right back and compelled the clerk to take her report when she realized his excuse was invalid. Durova^Charge! 04:14, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Reading this account, & having worked with real phone switch logs, I suspect the problem is that either no one in authority understands how this works -- or don't care. Excuse me while I talk about some stuff that has little to do with either WP:AN or Wikipedia in general, but explains how this information gets recorded.

Phone switches are in effect computer servers, & keep a very detailed log of all of the calls that are handled by a given central office. The record is kept so that at the end of the month the phone company can bill you. However, to get access to these logs for any reason other than billing, there are many barriers. To start with, most of the information is stored on 9-track tape, & the tape drives that could be used to read the data are in use; companies only have the minimum number of tape drives they need. Further, for various reasons (primarily to conserve space) those logs are encrypted, so they can't read them with a text editor like notepad or vi. (When I handled these records, I used a perl script that did the decoding, then search-&-printed all of the records in question -- which took as long as a couple of hours.) Despite all of this, it is theoretically possible to find out who called you many years before -- or as long as the phone company keeps the records. However, phone companies are not organized to provide that information at a moment's notice. (Remember: those companies are set up to handle providing customer service, & think about how well they do that.) In many cases, the people who handle the initial requests about calling info don't even know who handles all of those logs. I'm sure that's why a court order is needed -- to get the attention of a manager who has the clout to get the information. That's probably why most law enforcement agencies would trace calls -- it was far, far quicker than delving into the phone company beauracracy.

As for the question about "dropped calls", if I understand telecomm technology correctly, until you pick up the phone, no billing information is written. However, ISTR anecdotes about people being billed for calls they never answered; so if that if correct when some phones ring for a certain number of seconds, then a token charge will be written to the billing log on the switch. (There are several models of phone switches, all of which handle billing and pass voice data in different ways. And use one of the most unusual operating system I have encountered.) -- llywrch (talk) 20:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Have you eliminated the more mundane possibility of telemarketers using Predictive dialers that dial too many numbers, leading to "call abandonment"? Do you get a lot of telemarketing calls? If you live in a country with an equivalent to the United States National Do Not Call Registry and have not yet added your name to it, perhaps you could do so as a test (though there might be a delay before it takes effect). I apologize if this idea is off base. Cardamon (talk) 07:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not offbase. Actually, I was just about to suggest that as the most likely cause. Hangup calls, blank voice messages, it fits the description of certain dialers perfectly. I had that problem for short while; a friend is an engineer for the phone company and confirmed. El_C 13:20, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

See Predictive_dialer#Silent_calls. The half-life of these dialer stalking can be between three to six months, if I recall correctly (but sometimes it will only last a week or two, as was the case for me), so changing one's phone number needs to be weighed accordingly. El_C 13:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Many phone companies allow automatic rejection (or voicemail) for unidentified calls. My preferred VoIP carrier also allows me to shunt specific numbers directly to voicemail. - Jehochman ^Talk 13:58, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I have been asked if I have eliminated the mundane possibility of telemarketers. I have generally not ruled out possibilities like this, though I receive fewer than four telemarketing calls a year on my telephone. That makes it less likely. I do have another question, though. If I decide to set up a new account with the goal of eventually receiving adminship on that new account, I would obviously have to be very careful not to violate WP:SOCK. Would anyone consider it inappropriate if I did not disclose a relationship between the two accounts even during a request for adminship? I would happily inform the Foundation in advance (and would consider informing a couple of admins I particularly trust, if people believe it necessary) and would of course give up the admin bit on my current account in a manner which I felt did not interfere with my privacy. Specifically, not on the same day but in a manner which adheres to the spirit of the law, at the very least. Again, I'm well aware that setting up a second account imposes significant restrictions on what I can do under WP:SOCK. --Okay Bignose (talk) 19:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I would expect that, were you to notify the 'crats in advance (by email, obviously), the issue will not even be raised. Given that'd you'd vanish from one account while in good standing, there would be no problem whatsoever. Personally, however, I think this sucks beyond words. sigh. We have to start comming down MUCH harder on harassment. — Coren ^(talk) 15:54, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Carolyn Doran

This is the subject of a current ongoing controversy regarding a former employee of the Wikimedia Foundation. The article is at Carolyn Doran and it should be watched for vandalism in reaction to the Register article. Avruch^Talk 04:34, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Related to this matter, I've fully-protected User:Carolyn-WMF‎ and semi-protected User talk:Carolyn-WMF‎, as both had already seen some vandalism (it didn't help that the Wikinews article linked directly to her userpage, which I've since fixed). EVula // talk // ☯ // 05:50, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I tagged the talk page and two redirects as speedy deletes if someone wants to get them. [28] [29] Lawrence Cohen 06:39, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I really have a problem with the talk page being deleted. From what I looked at it, there was nothing in the talk page that warranted a speedy deletion. At least restore it to allow talk about the article, if one should exist. At least have it for a week or two. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:42, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Talk page restored by another admin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zscout370 (talk • contribs) 06:51, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Even though I have expressed genuine doubts about the notability of the subject of the article, it is probably wise to keep at least the talk page undeleted for a day or two simply to diffuse the inevitable drama. Risker (talk) 06:54, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

And a soft redirect was made to Wikinews. I issued the protection to the soft protected article, so it is up to Wikinews now. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I did a double-take on the soft-redirect due to the fact that at this time there's not enough reliable source for us to link to the Wikinews article. (If Washington Post runs a story blowing the whistle, I wouldn't hesitate to link to Wikinews--- I'd even say that we could probably write an article for C.D!) - Penwhale | ^{Blast him / Follow his steps} 07:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, the Wikimedia Foundation article is sadly out of date and currently gives the impression that Doran is still an employee, doesn't mention Sue Gardner or her position, etc. If someone is in a position to clean that up using reliable sources, this might be a good time to do it. Risker (talk) 15:27, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Since Risker's post, the problem he described has been fixed -- although I'd argue that the changes he advocated were not controversial & did not need reliable sources. -- llywrch (talk) 22:06, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Everything needs reliable sources. ;) EVula // talk // ☯ // 07:41, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Be my guest & start flagging non-controversial statements like "London is a city in the United Kingdom" or "Wyoming is one of the United States" with {{fact}}, & see how long it is before someone starts invoking WP:POINT at you. ;) Now if you want to find a reliable source for those statements (I guess the Congressional act which made Wyoming a state would work for the second example), & add them to the article, I'd be honestly surprised if anyone objected. But now this thread is drifting into the hypothetical. -- llywrch (talk) 19:21, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I would have been fine with someone who actually knew the information considering themself a reliable source. I didn't know to the degree of certainty required to change the article, and find that there are often conflicting sources of information for the Foundation, so better that someone else make the edits. Hence my post. Risker (talk) 14:42, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

PimpUigi account

Hey guys.

I'm PimpUigi, and I noticed there is no email address attached to my username. I can't log in, or change my password, or anything.

Can you assign my email address to it?

I should be able prove I am PimpUigi, as I have accounts on tons of other forums, and many people on those forums even know me in person.

To my knowledge I am not blocked.

My email address is <redacted> or <redacted> It may be better to use the second one, as it will get CC'd to both email addresses that way.

Thank you for your assistance, and any info you can provide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.201.149.217 (talk) 05:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean Pimpuigi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)? If you've lost the password, it would require a developer to change it, which they would not want to do since that account has only five edits, all from July. Why don't you just create a new account? Chick Bowen 06:11, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, since there is no e-mail attached to your username, there is no way to get back your account (for obvious security reasons). Sorry. -- lucasbfr ^talk 07:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. That's strange, as I've never edited anything. I have no idea why my account would lose it's email either. To my knowledge, I signed up, but never edited anything. I just kind of signed up, and forgot about it. Can you delete the name, and then I can remake it????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.201.149.217 (talk) 13:54, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I looked at the five things it said I contributed to, and I've never seen them before in my life. I'm worried my account has been compromised, or someone was impersonating me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.201.149.217 (talk) 19:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, we have no way whatsoever to tell if you are telling the truth, since those edits are months old and the IP logs have likely expired. Sorry. Just ignore it and make a new account; if that one starts being bad, we'll block it, with no harm to you. --Golbez (talk) 21:30, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure you guys wouldn't like it either if someone somehow took your account name. I can prove that I am PimpUigi. I can't prove I didn't make those edits, but I can indeed prove I am PimpUigi. And since I can prove I'm PimpUigi, you guys should attach my email address to my name. I have no idea how it would get unattached to begin with.

http://www.smashwiki.com/wiki/Pimpuigi http://razerblueprints.net/index.php/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,99/action,profile/ http://smashboards.com/member.php?u=14397 http://forums.newdoom.com/member.php?u=10757

You can see that my info at all of these places will sync up. If you need more proof, I'll be happy to oblige. But I won't be happy with the possibility of someone impersonating me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.201.149.217 (talk) 17:46, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Doom characters

Please check the relevance of this article. Other characters like Arlene Sanders from Doom are available on Wikipedia. I'd be glad if Sergeant Kelly would also be acceptable. D@rk ^talk 18:00, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

...why should we have the article, though? I appears that Kelly only appears in a single game, whereas Sanders at least appears in multiple books set in the Doom universe. EVula // talk // ☯ // 20:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Those books are horrible and their mere mention on Wikipedia is a blight upon all mankind. Er, ahem, I mean, uh, just because she's in four horrible books that collectively probably sold less than a single video game (in this case, Doom 3) does not make that character inherently more notable than Sergeant Kelly. Quantity alone does not infer more notability. Personally, I'd nuke both articles - redirects are sufficient. --Golbez (talk) 21:29, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll admit that it's been almost 15 years since I played Doom, & that this entire thread properly belongs elsewhere, but I have to ask -- there were characters in that game? I thought the cast consisted of one guy with at least one firearm, & the creatures he killed. There was no plot to get in the way of the story! Merge, redirect, & insist on reliable sources for everything else. -- llywrch (talk) 22:19, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

There were no characters in the first two games. There we characters in the horrid books, and in Doom 3. --Golbez (talk) 00:19, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Those books were awesome. Jtrainor (talk) 00:52, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Awesomely bad. The first one was marginally entertaining, the second two were bad, and the fourth killed my puppy. --Golbez (talk) 22:13, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The fifth would have raised it from the dead as a mindless zombie. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 08:32, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Image for deletion

Resolved

Hello, Image:Inkou.jpg is up for speedy deletion as of December 1, but the category has been deleted (because it was empty, the tag had been removed against policy though, after the expiry date) , can someone please look at the image and delete it if necessary thanks. Jackaranga (talk) 22:39, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the uploader adequately addressed the issue. Using the DVD cover as an example in order to illustrate porn in Japan, falls within the scope of fair use, and I think other admins felt the same. Otherwise, the image would have been deleted. Your revert however (which removed part of the fair use rational), labeling the removal of the template as vandalism, does not show good faith. The template states "Please remove this template if you have successfully addressed the concern." That is what he did, so I have removed the template. — Edokter • Talk • 23:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

You can see at WP:CSD and the user warning {{uw-speedy}} how removing a speedy deletion tag from a page you created yourself is against policy, and considered vandalism (thus the warnings), also you can see at WP:NFC Cover art: Cover art from various items, for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item (not for identification without critical commentary). Anyway if you accept to be the admin who is refusing deletion, please drop me a note so I can start a DRV as this is a common type of problem and a DRV on this kind of one would be useful, thanks. Jackaranga (talk) 23:53, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, but the image was never tagged with a CSD template, but with a disputed fair-use template; uw-speedy does not apply here, and you totally misread the policy and the templates. Now you have sent it to deletion review, while there is nothing to review. The proper action would have been to nominate it for deletion at Wikipedia:Images for deletion. Can someone close the DRV? — Edokter • Talk • 12:04, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Coredesat 12:43, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Important reminder

Hello, can I please remind everyone that removal of speedy deletion tags from pages you have created yourself is a violation of policy. I just realised many users do this, including admins, I may have myself also I can't remember, please be careful of this. I reworded the user warnings {{uw-speedy1}} (2,3,4) to change article to page in order to conform with WP:CSD. Any user who is not the creator of a page may remove a speedy tag from it. The creator may not do this. Often for example BetacommandBot tags images for speedy deletion, and users remove the warning themselves after having corrected the problem, however this is not allowed and is as bad as removing the speedy deletion tag from an article you created because you think you found reliable sources. good example, bad example I think the confusion stems from the fact that sometimes users believe they know about fair-use images. They think "I have 10,000 edits I just made a typo in the article name, I will correct it", however there may subsist other problems (for example missing copyright holder name... many experienced users forget this). So I think we should just follow what the consensus on WP:CSD tells us: correct the problem, place {{hangon}} on the page and ask Betacommand if he will reconsider. Jackaranga (talk) 22:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Is this a joke? 81.153.124.23 (talk) 23:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok I will admit not all the tags are speedy deletion tags, some are "relative-speedy" deletion, so perhaps this doesn't apply to those ones. But for example invalid fair-use claim as well as missing rationale are, see WP:CSD#Images and media, invalid fair-use rationale is not one however, so perhaps the problem is not as big as I thought, but still something to remember. If a page creator could remove the speedy deletion tag himself we might as well scrap the whole speedy deletion idea, so not a joke, but I did perhaps overstate the problem a bit. Jackaranga (talk) 23:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I've never had a problem with people removing "speedy deletion" tags from images after they have fixed the problem. --EoL talk 23:22, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, it's only when all you do is remove the speedy tag that it becomes a problem; if an article is tagged with {{db-bio}} and the author removes it and inserts a valid assertion of notability, that's perfectly fine (and if the policy says it isn't, then the policy is wrong). EVula // talk // ☯ // 23:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

True, but you must remember it's the consensus that no distinction is made, so we must try to abide by it if possible even if we disagree personally. Jackaranga (talk) 23:56, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that is the consensus; EVula's description is closer to what has been standard practice by long precedent. Remember that policy pages are descriptive rather than prescriptive. Chick Bowen 01:40, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

How about removing wrongly-added speedy tags? DuncanHill (talk) 01:42, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

One of only many examples, yes. Jackaranga's original example, a bot-added tag about a specific problem with an image, is actually a good example of a situation in which the author's removing a tag is clearly acceptable. Chick Bowen 01:47, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if you fix a problem with your images, please remove the deletion tags. It saves a lot of time when going through and deleting the non-compliant ones. Mr.Z-man 02:33, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

for images, removing the tag oneself makes good sense--there seems to be already an excessive amount of overhead in dealing with images. For articles, however, I disagree with EVula, Most cases i see of authors removing the tags are at least questionable. We should revert Jackaranga's change, restoring the reading 'article' and enforce it. i would have no hesitation in supporting the blocking of an admin who removed a speedy tag from a article he had created, and further action if it continued. It's almost as bad as protecting or blocking in ones own edit dispute--it amounts to the same principle. We dont change CSD policy here. DGG (talk) 22:20, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Admin trial periods

Has a system ever been used where trusted editors (who desire to become admins) are given admin tools for a trial period (a month for example), in order to test whether they would make good admins? If there is a more appropriate place to ask this question, let me know and I'll move it :). Seraphim ^Whipp 02:18, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

This has often been suggested, but never seems to get any agreement.--Doc^g 02:24, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I would think it useful if it were implemented. RfA is based around presuming what sort of admin a person would be...if they were given a trial for a week, their actions as an admin for that week could be reviewed and adminship decided on that trial period. There are negatives but I haven't fully thought them through. Seraphim ^Whipp 02:31, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Would probably create more problems than be a benifit to wikipedia. Admin school seems to address using the tools, in an environment that will not harm the encyclopedia. see →Wikipedia:New admin school--Hu12 (talk) 02:33, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

All someone has to do is not do anything outrageous in the week they're a trial admin. Once it passes, they can go wild... EVula // talk // ☯ // 02:34, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem I see is that it would create a system where people have to go through 2 RFAs. Since we can't just hand out the tools to anyone who asks, we would need some sort of approval process both before and the process after to evaluate. Mr.Z-man 02:36, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

(five edit conflicts - is this a record)I think it is a good idea and that existing admins should be subject to periodic review too. DuncanHill (talk) 02:38, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec)All excellent points. It could be difficult to judge who to approve...and become too complicated. Periodic review sounds like a good idea though. Seraphim ^Whipp 02:49, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Make it automatic: If you've been around for at least three months, have racked up at least a thousand edits, and ask for the tools, you get them for a month. After that month, there's an RFA to see if you should keep them. If you abuse the tools during the trial period, it's grounds for an immediate and permanent de-sysopping. --Carnildo (talk) 04:14, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

This is actually an important issue. There is a huge backlog of admin hopefuls/candidates looking for mentorship, going back as far as October, from what I see. But there also seems to be little take-up from existing admins to adopt them. I look at RfAs, and see very few people I recognise. That, in itself, is no bad thing, because a lot of admin work, particularly clearing backlogs, does not show up on the radar of an average editor. However, I can see that a case can be made for "trusted editors" having limited tools to deal with patent vandalism either by blocking or page protection; this would release "full admins" to deal with issues such as sock-puppetry, edit-warring and the like, where a greater depth of experience would be useful. However, the position at present is that the admin tools are indivisible. It is difficult, and ultimately nugatory, to propose a hierarchy of admins; however, a little responsibility, properly transferred to editors in good standing, and subject to appropriate review, would be no bad thing, in that it would relieve admins of what is, ultimately, voluntary responsibility, and minimise some of the drama that seems to occur on a daily basis. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 02:56, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with EVula. — Rlevse • Talk • 03:01, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Up to a point. But all you have to do to become an admin is keep your nose clean. After that, as long as you don't hit the radar, you're home and away. Is that what we really want? --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 03:07, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

EVula makes a good point about requiring the RfA process. But the idea of bifurcating admin duties seems interesting. For instance banning a user or deleting a page are very serious actions, since if done wrongly, they can prevent useful content or users from participating. On the other hand, page-protection and semi-protection is easily reviewable and users of that feature could probably do with less scrutiny then those trusted with the block and ban buttons. Viewing deleted data and editing mediawiki pages is probably somewhere in between, since deleted data can have copyvio issues and mediawiki pages impact the entire encyclopedia. Also, I suspect the first comment will be that a less-vetted page-protection policy will lead to the main page constantly getting deleted. In that case, removal of full protection could be left to regular admins and addition of it and all semi-protections to "trusted editors", whatever that term may mean. Mbisanz (talk) 03:16, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll just add that banning an editor is not an admin function; it is that no admin is prepared to unblock an editor; so it is effectively a collective decision, not an individual decision. Deleting a page varies in seriousness, depending upon the page. Closing an AfD on apparent consensus may be, in the short term, serious to its creator. Salting it, certainly is. Deleting a User page is certainly serious, as in the recent User:PresterJohn situation. Even if an article page is deleted as a result of AfD, there is always deletion review. There are checks and balances built in, sufficient in general to limit the actions of out of policy mavericks. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 03:27, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I certainly agree that we hav good checks and balances, due process stuff in place, but some things take more discretion than other and some discretions are (IMHO) more serious than others. I could easily imagine the problems of setting a level of 2000 edits and presto your a trusted editor who could block. Even with containmment, many good new users could be turned off to the whole thing. On the other hand, I don't see reckless page protection as serious as an issue since its unlikely to have the same psychological aspect. And as you point out, there are more processes a person can screw up in deletions (userspace, CSD/PROD/AFD/DRV, copyvio, NPOV) than in protections.

Or we could just ask Jimbo to follow up on his famous quote and make a "bunch of people who have been around for awhile sysops"; that could help dispel the notion of being an admin as passing the RfA test :) Mbisanz (talk) 03:45, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Imagine what a huge disaster that would be. Prodego ^talk 05:06, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The flaw with Carnildo's suggestions is that blocks are personal, and cause drama. Even bad undeletions can be quickly reversed, but bad blocks sit in the logs of users (not articles) forever and they are a source of drama. I could almost agree to a system of users-with-three-months-2000-edits-nothing-bad-and-no-administrator-disagrees system (maybe they'd have to post their name on a page for seventy-two hours and if no administrator objects they get two weeks' +sysop) getting temporary +sysop where their actions are clearly marked with a link to distinguish them as actions by a temporary sysop in their trial period, normal administrators can overturn their actions and not be reversed by a temporary administrator, they do not have access to Special:Blockip (or, even better: they can only block people who don't meet the technical threshold for being "autoconfirmed"), and they can be desysopped on the request of any administrator. But people will argue that it's too bureaucratic, probably, but anything less will result in mayhem and drama everywhere. Daniel 10:18, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Please examine the behavior of User:Quantumentanglement

He placed a wildly inappropriate "warning" on Mongo's talkpage here. This was after QE had been placing inappropriate fact tags (which Mongo reverted) over several 9/11-related pages. His contributions, such as they are have been disruptive, as he has called an established editor a "vandal" numerous times, and refuses to retract when others tell him this is inappropriate. He lashes out at anyone who dares question his reasoning. I have warned him about this disruption. I think it would be appropriate for a user with the tools to keep an eye on this guy, and block him if he refuses to discontinue his disruptive behavior. Mr Which??? 07:48, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks MrWhich...he is just a new editor or recreated editor who is only here to support the "alternate storyline". I've asked him to cite what sources he is using to try and refute what the article states and maybe he will...one never knows.--MONGO (talk) 08:32, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, it's the jolly old disruptive single-purpose account again. He's only been here 4 days and he's progressed to edit-warring, fringe theory advocacy, biased editing, incivility, personal attacks, templating the regulars - crikey. How far wrong can you go? Can someone with more patience than I explain why he needs to do everything completely differently from now on? Thank you. Moreschi ^{If you've written a quality article...} 11:27, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

MiguelL0pz

Resolved

 – Blocked MiguelL0pz Guy (Help!) 17:35, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I have posted the following in Nikki311's talk page and on Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism

• MiguelL0pz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) The editor is begging to be blocked by continuing to make vanfalism. ClueBot has warned him, but he still continues. The user has not made one single edit which is constructive. Lex ^T/_C Guest Book 17:17, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Here are his edits:

[30]	He writes: (A statement that violates biography of living persons policy has been removed.)
[31]	He wrote that the ECW Champion is Kelly Kelly and she won it on the December 10 edition of ECW.
[32]	He wrote that the WWE Champion is Melina, the Womens Champion is Candice Michelle and the World Tag Team Champions are Candice Michelle and Hanna Montana
[33]	Removed all dates for the General Managers of Smackdown
[34]	Again... removed all the GM's dates.
[35]	Here he wrote that the WWE Champion is Candice Michelle, the Womens Champion is Candice Michelle, the Intercontinental Champion is Candice Michelle and the World Tag Team Champions are... you guessed it: Candice Michelle and Candice Michelle!
[36]	Removed all authority figures in Friday Night Smackdown article.
[37]	All the champions are Candice Michelle again, but this time, Candice's tag team champion partner is Cody Rhodes... (at least he got 1/2 champion right)
[38]	Blanked the GMs again... what's his deal with the SD GMS?
[39]	Orginally saying that Vickie is the present GM... he replaced it with: (A terrible insult)
[40]	He made it as so there are 2 women champions in the WWE, them being Melina and... CANDICE (go figure)
[41]	He wrote that SD's current GM is Stacy Keibler.
[42]	Wrote that Kelly Kelly is the current ECW Champion.
[43]	Replaced Kelly Kelly's win from September to December 11
[44]	He wrote that (A statement that violates biography of living persons policy has been removed.)
[45]	Replaced Stratus' real name with (A statement that violates biography of living persons policy has been removed.)

There are many other edits, but you can't suppose I'd write them all down here. Please see to this ASAP. Lex ^T/_C Guest Book 17:17, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Sfacets

Sfacets (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user has been blocked by, at my count, nine different admins, plus one extension of a block due to sockpuppetry. According tot he user, this is because everybody else is biased, especially all the admins. He's made it pretty clear he'll pick up the cudgels again when his latest block expires. Is this user redeemable, do we think? Guy (Help!) 17:30, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if he's redeemable in an absolute sense. But it has become clear that the effort required by the community to redeem him against his will is disproportionate to any benefit. Raymond Arritt (talk) 17:36, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry is unproven. Andries (talk) 17:58, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Two accounts making identically POV edits to the self-same subjects, with the newer account active only when Sfacets is blocked. Oh, it could be innocent, but it's pretty unlikely. Guy (Help!) 22:49, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I've worked with Sfacets for two years now, and I'd say he gives "POV pushers" a bad name. He's exhibited a range of tendentious editing behaviors that include ownership of articles, disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate points, harassment of editors, false accusations about other editors, unfulfilled promises to reform, and more reverts than I've seen from any other editor. He claims that all the blocks he's received were "unwarranted, and the reasons given were shams like 'civility'".[46] I also believe that he's incorrectly claimed to have created some of the images that he's uploaded. Regarding user:Yogasun, the sock designation and block were made by one uninvolved admin and confirmed by another. That account picked up right where Sfacets left off and made virtually identical edits. No matter if it's a meat puppet or a sock puppet, the account was only used to continue the edit dispute which led to one of Sfacets' blocks. I can't speak for the community, but my patience with Sfacets has already been exhausted. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:47, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I understand, but it would be inappropriate to punish Sfacets for unproven sockpuppetry. Andries (talk) 12:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

For the purposes of the sockpuppetry policies, two users who "just happen" to be editing identically are deemed to be the same editor. "Proving" the puppet via CU is neither required nor necessary. In any case, all I did is reset the then only day-old 10 day block— Sfacets is working very hard at exhausting everyone's patience and is creeping closer to a ban every time he edits.

His stunts on his talk page (before yet another admin got tired of them an protected it) show no willingness to work the encyclopedia, and no admission that his behavior is disruptive. Frankly, I'm surprised he isn't already indef blocked. — Coren ^(talk) 15:37, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

They're on opposite sides of the world actually..(CU)..Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:10, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

• See also this edit, where he rmeoves my comments from his carefully-laundered talk page with the edit summary "Remove harassing vandal." Anyone here think it's acceptable to call an admin a "harassing vandal" when they respond to posts on yo9ur talk page? Guy (Help!) 23:51, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I really can't resist that - Guy's edit summaries when blanking content from his own talk page are at times no less uncivil. DuncanHill (talk) 23:53, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

That might be relevant if this were a reciprocal situation, but that's not in an issue in this case. Sfacets has a history of calling good faith edits "vandalism", and of using vandal-fighting tools in edit conflicts. There are numerous complaints on his talk page about mislabelling edits or editors. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

And how is that relevant? Corvus cornix_talk 05:37, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

It's an element of the problematic behavior of this user. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:28, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

You're saying that Guy's behavior is problematic. How is that relevant to the question of Sfacets's disruption? Corvus cornix_talk 23:59, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying that. DuncanHill is saying that, and I told him I didn't think his comments is relevant. Can we get back to the topic now? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:54, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

BLP subject ambiguity

This could apply to any BLP subject and may benefit from wider awareness.

We might routinely get problems whereby some "John Smith" tells us that the article "John Smith" points to a mass murderer, or other person that makes them look bad. In such cases please be aware of Template:AmbiguousBio, which can be placed at the top of a BLP article and looks like this:

Template:AmbiguousBio

The template takes a name, a brief description of the article subject, and an (optional) disambiguation page for others with similar names if such a page exists. For an example see Russell Bishop (sex offender). FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 19:45, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Someone should probably go through and try to find all the controversial bios that use the less noticeable {{otheruses}} type templates. Mr.Z-man 20:34, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

That format of template for non fixable problems is not acceptable. IF you really need something write it in hatnotes format. If people find that this is not enough there is little we can do about them.Geni 10:17, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. If anything, this giant banner just draws attention to the "problem" and it can also work the other way, as in "No, this article is about John Doe the politician, not John Doe the convicted baby-eater. Don't ever make the association with these two individuals. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME PEOPLE, ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT. Oh damn, I don't think this is working. You know what? Just forget we ever brought this up." =) --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 15:22, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Power structure problems

I would like to suggest a total revamping of the entire hierarchical structure of this project. It has become somewhat obvious to me that there are several users who hold high ranking positions of power within the project (I'm not naming any names at this stage yet) who appear more intent on arbitrarily blocking other users and exercising their own power, than actually helping to contribute to this project. Such users are bearing grudges against others and taking unreasonable punitive measures, without the best interests of the encyclopedia at heart. These same users are ignoring votes for consensus, and abusing their powers to push their points of view into certain articles, removing or changing the valid contributions of others. I find this extremely counter productive, and it is not at all what this site stands for in my humble opinion. I feel that this project would benefit from considerably more equitable standings between users, where useful discussion, acceptance and tolerance would be the code of practice, rather than a power ranking system that arbitrarily blocks out the so called "enemies" of those perched on the higher rungs of the power ladder. Please take time to consider my post here and I would be more than happy to discuss this issue with many of you. 91.108.241.252 (talk) 19:50, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Heh, just realised what a foolish title I initially chose considering I want users here to take me seriously! 91.108.241.252 (talk) 19:55, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, the people who have power are the ones who are most feverent in denying that there is a power structure. It's hard to fix something nobody will admit exists. -Amarkov moo! 20:18, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Very true, Amarkov. DuncanHill (talk) 20:27, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

total revamping of the entire hierarchical structure from an unknown person. Right. Try creating a few articles to prove you are here to help create an encyclopedia. Or improve some articles with new sourced information. Strangers telling us how to spend our unpaid time does not fly. WAS 4.250 (talk) 20:31, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think I'm a total stranger here, and I think that the OP made some good points. DuncanHill (talk) 20:39, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Isn't there something, somewhere, along the lines of "comment on the content, not the contributor"? DuncanHill (talk) 22:40, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, what power structure? The technical one, or the social one? We can't change social at this point, in fact, you never really can. As far as a technical power structure goes, it is pretty set in, and doesn't really match to the social structure. Prodego ^talk 20:43, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The technical/official structure could be spread out (multiple admin levels) but the community is mostly against that and the more we divide tasks the more bureaucracy we need to maintain the divisions. Mr.Z-man 20:46, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I agree with 91. —–abadafa (+C0) 21:43, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I think IP 91 should come out and tell us who he really is. He's obviously not a new user. On the other hand there are extremely influential users who ignore problems. But, I disagree with IP 91 in that I feel a total revamping is not needed. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:38, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

• There is no hierarchical structure. That makes it a bit difficult to revamp it. Guy (Help!) 22:46, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

  Indeed, officially it works exactly as 91 says it should. In practice, there are deviations from the ideal, but I see no easy way to fix those by "revamping the power structure" - the easiest way to fix them is to take the abusers to ArbCom. --Tango (talk) 23:38, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I kind of agree with 91. Administrators are immune to consequences for most of the actions they take, in my experience, which in turn leads some ofthem to be some of the most egregrious edit warriors. I also definitely disagree that he should reveal himself at this juncture-- given his opinion, it is reasonable to believe that he himself might be a controversial figure and as such wishes to post his argument without bias being imposed upon it by who he is. Jtrainor (talk) 06:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Abject nonsense. There have been desysoppings in the last week. Guy (Help!) 12:14, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I've commented before that I think the admin process might work better if users were eased into it, being trusted with certain tools before others. But, Z-man makes the good point that it would just create more divisions in the community (imagine having to go through multiple RFAs). And we are here to write an encyclopedia, so as long as the structural system isn't broken (we don't see 20 day backlogs are RfD or unreverted vandalism to the main page), I'm going to focus my attention on my personal pet peeves, poor spelling and formatting in articles. Mbisanz (talk) 06:55, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as the IP is unwilling to give any specific examples (quite possibly as a banned user), I will do so myself.

1. The way that no one is willing to reverse an administrator action through policy. X administrator makes Y questionable decision. This is appealed through policy. Most people disagree with the decision, would never have made it in the first place, but don't want to reverse it.
2. The way that it is overlooked when an administrator reverses an action outside of policy. X administrator does Y, and Z administrator gets mad and undoes X. This is wheel warring, and happens all the time. Thus, in combination with (1) above, it's nearly impossible to get something reversed, no matter how lousy the decision, unless you can get an administrator to actually care about the issue. Case in point: [47]. People care about that issue, so they're fine wheel-warring there. But
3. The way that WP puts up with trolls. Case in point: I recently saw on ANI [48] that a user was being quite uncivil, was wildly reverting in order to get his own page version protected (only one to break 3RR, and reverting against everyone else), etc. etc. The response? Protect the page again (with said user's version), not blocking for 3RR because ("it would be punitive, not protective", as if he won't just go back and do it yet again). And no one even bothered to block him for incivility. In combination with (1) and (2), this assures that the a) people can get away with pretty much any form of trolling as long as b) they don't piss off an administrator (administrators rarely care enough to actually look into real problems posted at AN or ANI; they'd rather process wonk about where User:White Cat gets to place his signature). Users can be uncivil to other users, but don't they dare to so to an admin. The Evil Spartan (talk) 07:04, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Defender 911

Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to bring to your attention User:Defender 911.

At one point, Defender was an alright editor. However, he was blocked indefinitely in August for severe harassment and for disrespecting a ellow user's right to vanish. It was a widely endorsed block, and since no administrator was willing to overturn the block, he was banned.

Now, recently, he has requested for unblock, however it was declined. What I'm suggesting the community consider is something that I know may cause some amount of drama, but please understand that this is out of good faith.

I am suggesting we unblock Defender 911.

This is not going to be easy for the community to do. There was very serious disruption caused by this user, and it stemmed from disrespecting an editors right to vanish. However, what I suggest is that we keep a close eye on Defender, and place him on civility probation. Yes, I know this would be a tough unblock, but I'm certain if he really has reformed, he can be an asset once more.

After all, we all lose sight once in awhile. :) Maser ^(Talk!) 06:31, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

BTW, I can't find where this block was "widely endorsed." I've looked through the WP:AN and WP:AN/I archives and I only found one spot where the indef block was even mentioned in passing. -- Kendrick7^talk 16:45, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, the decision to turn the block into a ban after two hours[49] was decided by someone who had been editing wikipedia for three weeks, and quit the project a week later.[50] - Kendrick7^talk 17:01, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I strongly, strongly oppose Defender 911 being unblocked or unbanned. His actions just prior to his banning showed a serious inability to use common sense, showed how this user could be extremely malicious and a danger to good-faithed Wikipedia editors (in the interests of privacy for those involved I can obviously not provide details), a total disregard for established users' warnings both about his userspace editing and his harassment of other editors, and a general inability to be involved in a community environment without causing excessive disturbance. Sorry, but I don't want Defender 911 to be editing Wikipedia ny time soon, both to protect users who are far more valuable than him from his harassment and also to prevent other, less noticeable yet just as effective disruption. I strongly oppose unbanning. Daniel 06:45, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Could we have some diffs of the example behavior which caused the ban in the first place? It's unusual for someone to be banned on first offense, as it appears so here. The Evil Spartan (talk) 06:52, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

From my understanding many have been oversighted. It would be inappropriate to rehost the harassment that resulted in the block, really. For some more tame stuff see the recent contributions (the last 100) — although, it must be said, that is only the tip of the iceberg and the end of the whole story. Furthermore, it was hardly the users' "first offence" — Defender 911 had so many warnings, so many conditional no-blocks (for a small selection see the last version of the user talk page before the block). Daniel 06:56, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

No. Absolutely not. --B (talk) 06:57, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

No. Just no. east.718 at 07:48, December 16, 2007

I don't see any reason he'd repeat the same mistake again. Since this was this user's first block, four months seems sufficient. He seems to have been helpful to the project -- received a number of barnstars, etc. Blocks are not punitive, remember? -- Kendrick7^talk 08:08, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to support an unblock as well. Unless there is some more clarity as to what exactly occurred, it is difficult to figure out the extent of his disruption. At the very least, some details from the admins who were directly involved would help. How about a temporary unblock to allow him to come here and discuss the issue? Anything more and it'll be clear to everyone. Would that help? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:54, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

The extent of his harassment isn't evidenct from the contributions given the oversighting of certain edits. It is my personal opinion that this block should remain in place, both temporary and in the future, for the protection of all Wikipedians. However, as always, I bow to consensus. (He is free to paste messages on his user talk page to be copied here, as I noted in this message to him earlier.) Daniel 10:28, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Upon discussion, I think I better see the gravity of the situation and support the views of those who were primarily involved in the situation, and support continuing the block. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:37, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and asked for feedback at WT:OVER as to the extend of the oversighting here, just for the community record. -- Kendrick7^talk 11:18, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I understand that some of you might not want me unblocked, but all I wanted to do was help H. I did not expect a four-month block and the deletion of most of my user page space. I understand now that my disruption was wrong, and I hope that I can be reaccepted into the community. --Defender 911 (Leave a message!) 15:11, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

(This comment was copied from here by me) henrik•talk 16:56, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Barnstars notwithstanding, I just don't know if this editor is worth the hassle. Looking at his contributions, it's hard to see that he understands we're here to build an encyclopedia. Out of 1159 non-deleted contributions, only 92 are to mainspace (a shade less than 8%) and most of those are minor (at least, they ought to be flagged as such). The majority of his contributions (more than two thirds) are to user talk and his user page. His contributions in Wikipedia namespace fall largely into two categories: edits to games in the Sandbox, and attempts to create extensive new Esperanza- and CVU-type organizations: [51]. (His deleted edits are largely to these sorts of projects and userspace amusement as well.)

While I think it's fairly likely that he's always only been trying to help, his over-the-top behaviour has done more harm than good. His bull-in-a-china-shop approach to 'helping out' an editor who had left due to harrassment showed terrible judgement, and is unfortunately consistent with Defender's approach to Wikipedia. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:11, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I just find it remarkable he received two barnstars in the 72 hours before his block alone. I've never seen a user go from hero to zero in such record time. Perhaps he managed to make enemies just as quickly as he made friends. -- Kendrick7^talk 19:23, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

This guy was a checkuser-confirmed sockpuppeteer, too. TheWikiLoner (talk · contribs) Moreschi ^{If you've written a quality article...} 18:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you link to the WP:RFCU thread? -- Kendrick7^talk 19:23, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Nope, that one was done privately via IRC. You'll either have to take my word for it (easiest course), get another checkuser to go through the CU logs, or take Dmcdevit's word for it (I think it was him). Really, I wouldn't tell such an obviously disprovable lie. Moreschi ^{If you've written a quality article...} 19:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Guy's response to Wikiloner's unblock request casts doubt on all this, though I understand he may have only been speaking off the cuff. But since it appears the ban was out of process to begin with, since no one can point to where consensus was reached, he seems only stand accused of operating a sockpuppet of a blocked user, a somewhat less serious, and perhaps forgivable, offense. -- Kendrick7^talk 19:46, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Out of process? A person is community banned if they are indefinitely blocked and no admin is willing to unblock them. That is the process. I seriously doubt any admin is going to be willing to reverse this one. --B (talk) 01:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

and the block has received due consideration by the community per WP:BAN. That's the missing ingredient. -- Kendrick7^talk 02:40, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems to have received due considering here in this thread, whether or not it may have been discussed before. (Has anybody checked the WP:CSN archives?) A variety of administrators with first hand knowledge have supported the block, and none have stepped forward to recommend unblocking. - Jehochman ^Talk 02:55, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

If it was discussed before, it wasn't discussed on anywhere in WP: space (what links here from WP to Defender 911). I don't know how relevant that is, though - if no admin is willing to unblock, the level of discussion is moot. Defender is, of course, welcome to make a request for arbitration and appeal his ban that way. --B (talk) 03:24, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that, if he wants to edit once more, he should bring it to ArbCom. I came here with good faith intentions for a user who behaved horribly, to try to suggest an unblock for someone who I wanted to give a second chance to, because I think everybody deserves a second chance; however, a consensus has to be built before we can do anything. It is clear the consensus is not to unblock at this time. Maser ^(Talk!) 03:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I think this user treated Wikipedia as a social site. See this and this. I rarely see any mainspace contributions. I agree with the support to not unblockban this user. Miranda 03:29, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed with the rejection of the unblock request. I think if he wants to be able to edit again, he needs to talk to ArbCom. Considering his disruption with trying to contact a user who was harassed off of Wikipedia, EVEN after being told that the person was aware of his desire and did not desire to initiate conversation.. not good. SirFozzie (talk) 05:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

User:HandsomeDave

I just blocked the above user as a sockpuppet of User:HandsomeJerry. They both created List of Important Subjects, several times, and have the same user page. Also based on User talk:NawlinWiki/Archive 5#I do not understand, User talk:NawlinWiki/Archive 5#Grammar, User talk:CambridgeBayWeather#List of Important Subjects and User talk:CambridgeBayWeather#Re: Handsome Dave I think that their actions resemble that of a troll but at least they are really polite. Anyway the cats in the bed again and I have to go shift her so I can get some sleep. If you feel I'm in the wrong then please feel free to revert my actions, talk about me while I'm out of earshot, question my manhood, etc. Cheers. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 07:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

One note to be added is that while User:HandsomeDave is indefblocked as a abusive sockpuppet of HandsomeJerry, User:HandsomeJerry is not blocked himself. — Save_Us_229 12:37, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Please file these at WP:SSP in the future. — Rlevse • Talk • 14:37, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets is for discussing suspected sock puppets. I didn't suspect that he was, I knew he was, and posted this here for a review of my blocking him. I left HandsomeJerry unblocked just on the off chance that the editor was not a troll but misunderstanding of the way Wikipedia works. If he is just trolling then he will certainly show that. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 16:17, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Geonotice

I've commented it out from Mediawiki:Common.js, as when toolserver is down, it IS down, usually for weeks. _→AzaToth 14:45, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

The toolserver is alive and well. east.718 at 02:12, December 17, 2007

AWB approvals

It say to drop by here and leave a gentle reminder, so.....Hi! How's it going? Anyone want to come and visit the AWB request for approvals at their convenience? Thank you so much!! KellyAna (talk) 15:14, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

 Done - sorry for the inconvenience. Keilana 18:06, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedia administrators open to recall deleted, now on DRV

Just posting a notification here of the DRV, as this is directly relevant to admins. Lawrence Cohen 17:15, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

That's very nice. Message posted here at 17:15 UTC, DRV closed at 18:48 UTC. Time to MfD Wikipedia:There is no deadline perhaps? Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:07, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

<sarcasm>Angus, you should consider yourself lucky to have been told at all.</sarcasm> It appears that the trout whacking category was restored unilaterally, without going to DRV.... --After Midnight ⁰⁰⁰¹ 20:36, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Earl Paulk BLP issues

Could a few other's more familiar with bios and BLP please visit Earl Paulk. I've posted to Bio's but I'm concerned we need some quick and more authoritative action on this bio. Benjiboi 17:30, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem seems to be that people don't know how to use the ref citations inline and that they have to cite every possible thing. I am concerned about a possible bias as someone decided to conveniently ignore the fact that Paulk actually denied the allegations (a serious point of his). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:06, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

ArbCom lifted User:Certified.Gangsta edit restriction

The arbitration committee has lifeted the editing restriction on this user. See here...for the committee... — Rlevse • Talk • 18:13, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

History of the British penny (1901-1970) vandalism

Resolved

Could someone roll back the article to a pre-vandalized version? I'd rather not do 12 separate undos. 66.93.12.46 (talk) 21:11, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Done. Davewild (talk) 21:15, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

12 separate undos? What ever happened to just clicking on the pre-vandalized version, clicking edit, and then save? Carcharoth (talk) 01:27, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Snow Day

I'm not sure if this is worth noting, but many schools tomorrow in the northeast United States have a snow day. Thus, no school, more vandalism. Get ready... Icestorm815 (talk) 00:57, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I think KoS, Oxymoron, Cremepuff and Animum can handle them - they do all the reverting anyway :/ Will ^(talk) 01:06, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Oddly enough, when UK schools had snow days last February, there was actually less vandalism. Having said that, our "snow days" don't involve enough snow to actually stop you going outside :) BLACKKITE 01:09, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that some schools being closed will probably equate to less vandalism rather than more, for the same reason we get more vandalism on weekdays than on weekends. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thought I'd give you the heads up. Where I live, we got hit pretty bad. They wrote an article about the storms here, if your interested. Well, I guess it makes sense because most people would rather enjoy the snow than be inside editing the 'pedia. Icestorm815 (talk) 01:15, 17 December 2007 (UTC)