Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 6

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The Powerpuff Girls

Please comment/rule upon the reliability of these sources:

For the material removed through this action.

It seems to me, as well as Marcus2, that these sources are unreliable. They display factual errors and seem to be highly promotional. Animation World Magazine does not have a final say as to whether a show was the network's highest-rated premiere. In fact, if it was, the network would have said so on television, etc. From my knowledge, this show was moderately popular with children only, especially the younger ones, and was never the number one highest-rated show on the network. Take Scooby-Doo shows, for instance. And Cartoon Network never made it that big on prime-time cable television, as Time Warner suggests. Nickelodeon seems to be the predominant network with contemporary Nielsen ratings. Cartoon Network doesn't even appear in the top 20. I remember it vaguely, but I am 100% certain that Cartoon Network shows weren't in there. And as Marcus said, there's no need to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Let all of us be satisfied and move on. 70.101.182.149 (talk) 13:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Being the highest rated première in the history of one network is not that important anyway. This gets an official "who cares?" from me. Guy (Help!) 18:15, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
- I agree 100% with you. That's one reason why it shouldn't stay. 70.101.182.149 (talk) 01:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
  - It is shown just to show that it is the highest rated premiere. To me, it is also "Who cares?" but someone just had to delete them immediately. Why not just leave it alone if you don't like it? What I mean is like do you think other people care if they saw that source? They would just see it and leave it alone. It's like whether it's there or not, eventually people will look into it and not look into it again because they already know. And it just had to be deleted. Remember that we don't control those people especially American kids. If they like the Powerpuff Girls, let them. If they don't like or don't give a damn at all, let them. Why do you even bother? I have a feeling that now I know why Marcus2 is getting on Rattis1 and Night Leon's nerves. He doesn't care what others think. He would just delete them whether the American kids chose to love the Powerpuff Girls or hate them and I have a strong point that Marcus2 has this problem. He doesn't care about any other people's feelings. And no offense but, he seems to be only thinking about himself. And I hope you are not that kind of person because that kind of person never think out of the box. Adam Heart03 (talk) 05:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with these sources or there presentation. There is a problem with a kid and/or his mom edit warring, ranting, and forum shopping to find new rant locations. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Youtube

IMO there should be a definite guideline for links to Youtube. There are multiple problems with them. Many of them are self-published of unknown or dubious authorship. Some of them are copyright violations. Any of them may be removed at any time, and many of them linked in wikipedia are already dead. Currently there are several thousand links to youtube in the main namespace.

Any opinions? `'Míkka >t 22:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

We can not have a general opinion about everything which is on youtube. Each case should be judged separately. Sometimes youtube is usefull. Regarding copyright problems it was a long discussion which ended in no consensus.--MariusM (talk) 22:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

To make this clear, that was not a discussion as to youtube's reliability as a source but a proposal for automatic removal of youtube in external links, obviously not everything on youtube is a copyright violation so there was bound to be objections to automatically removing them all. --neonwhite user page talk 23:58, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you give a link to the discussion? `'Míkka >t 22:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

With pleasure. Check Wikipedia:External links/YouTube.--MariusM (talk) 22:34, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Generally youtube would follow the same rules as any source that has no editorial oversight. In most cases it's unreliable, unless it's a channel by a reliable source and there is no doubt to the authorship. --neonwhite user page talk 23:58, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. http://www.youtube.com/BBC would be reliable (BBC is the publisher, YouTube is just the delivery mechanism). This is the exception though; when YouTube is in effect used as a self-publishing mechanism/video blog, then the usual reliable source rules apply. But also consider that YouTube is often a primary source of new data; in this case, Wikipedia articles should preferably cite secondary sources discussing these primary sources. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 10:08, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Question About Extremist Sources

Does "themselves" in the guideline below mean that an extremist source can be used only in an article about itself, or does the plural infer that extremist sources can used in articles about each other? For example, could a Christian apologist scholar be used as a source regarding the notoriety of an organization promoting atheism?

Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether of a political, religious or anti-religious, racist, or other nature, should be used only as sources about themselves and their activities in articles about themselves, and even then with caution. Patrick Harrigan (talk) 07:36, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Good question, actually. There is a tendency on WP to use extremist X to talk about extremist Y, when X and Y are on opposite sides of the spectrum. This is possibly because both X and Y are so marginal only the people who really, really hate them or really, really agree notice that they exist.

However, extremist X is not really a reliable source for extremist Y unless they happen to be part of the same broad movement. Relata refero (talk) 07:46, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The purpose of the anti-extremist clause is to stop the propagation of unreliable information through Wikipedia. For that purpose, allowing extremists to be used as reliable sources for other extremists makes no sense. Why would one set of extremists be considered experts on another set of extremists? And note: "and even then with caution"; extremists are not always reliable, even when commenting on themselves, and if other sources are available then they should be preferably used. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 10:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I am unsure what the 'purpose' of that clause is, frankly; I see no reason why it needs exist when WP:NPOV insulates us from extremist viewpoints by definition. If it exists as a reminder, then it is patently obvious that Stormfront is a reliable source for information on Neo-nazis, whether or not there is any direct affiliation. Which is why I said "broad movement" above.

I agree, however, that if other sources are available, they should be used. Relata refero (talk) 10:11, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, Relata and Chris. I'd appreciate any guidance you could provide regarding this discussion page about a pro-atheist organization. It's a difficult situation, because the non-profit corporation operates mostly as an online publisher in a niche little covered by printed sources. The organization's officers have ponderously removed important self-published information from (and about) their online publishing assets that would provide balance to the Wiki page (WP?), but continue to rely on primarily self-published material for the article. A former corporate officer (Lippard) of the organization is adding material (self-published by the organization) without prior discussion, and appears to be claiming NPOV. Patrick Harrigan (talk) 18:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

In general, even two sources part of the same movement are not necessarily reliable about each other--factions always exists, and may not be obvious to those unfamiliar--and the names are often chosen so as to disguise any disagreements. It would probably be a mistake to assume that all neoNazis like each other, or will give a reliable account of what another member of the movement believes. I would not trust a Christian apologist to represent all Christians--many of the greatest have slanted their expositions to a particular denomination. DGG (talk) 21:27, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Weekly Kinyobi (magazine)

Could someone please make a judgement about whether this is a viable source for use on Wikipedia or not?

It's a Japanese magazine called "Shukan Kinyobi" literally "Weekly Friday". I tried to use it on the Ikuhiko Hata page, but was told it is part of a North Korean propaganda machine that created the "comfort women problem" or something like that.

Thanks for any input, and any peer reviews on the comfort women or Ikuhiko Hata pages are quite welcome.

Here is the magazine's website http://www.kinyobi.co.jp

Yaki-gaijin (talk) 08:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Can newspaper Op-Ed's ever be considered reliable sources?

From what I can see, newpaper op-ed's are generally unvetted opinion pieces, very much like letters to the editor [1] [2]. Obviously, the content can run from malicious political rants to thoughtful ruminations, but in either case, it is still just opinion. Obviously, as with opinions in general, you have a far, if not extreme range of credibility in op-ed writers.

So my basic, hopefully simple question is: can a Wikipedia article ever use an op-ed as a reliable source for content, especially if it involves a politically-tinged story or anecdote where the op-ed is the sole source? -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 15:06, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Nothing published in a newspaper is unvetted. It all has to have editorial approval and, if necessary, pass the newspaper's lawyers. The newspaper is publishing it and therefore legally liable for its content. An op-ed piece is no different to someone writing a book with their opinions in and having it published. It still counts as a published source, and at the very least legitimately represents a particular viewpoint. However, like all sources it has to be used judiciously. If it states a remarkable point, which no other source has repeated, then that needs to be made clear and not treated as a widely accepted fact. Tyrenius (talk) 16:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Much published in newspapers goes unvetted, as you would know if you havd ever worked in the industry, and is so demonstrated by the continuous levels of complaints to the Press Complaints Commission and to the High Court in the form of [libel]] actions. To me, newspapers are one of the least trustworthy sources I could possibly think of. Literally one-day wonders. Until quite recently journalism was universally regarded as the lowest 'profession'. Newspapers publish endless lies and utterly twisted stories. Surely Wikipedia can do better than that. Next you'll be citing the notorious BBC. Regards, David Lauder (talk) 16:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Newspapers are accepted as sources on wikipedia, as is the BBC. Tyrenius (talk) 17:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

It all depends on what you are citing it for... An Op-ed piece is a reliable source for statements about what the author said in the piece... for statements about the opinion of the author... but it would not be reliable for statement of facts. So, if Al Gore writes an Op-ed piece in which he says: "The sky is falling"... you can say things like "Al Gore has stated that the sky is falling<cite to op-ed piece>", or "According to Al Gore, the sky is falling<cite to op-ed>"... but you can not say: "The sky is falling<cite to op-ed piece>. In other words, information taken from an Op-ed pieces should be phrased as being the opinion of the author and directly attributed. Do you see the difference? Blueboar (talk) 16:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking in terms of an Op-Ed piece written by a non-notable or partisan author stating something like, say, "Al Gore believes the sky is really falling" and then having a Wikipedia editor sourcing that to add "Al Gore believes the sky is falling" in the Al Gore wiki as a statement of fact because the Op-Ed was published in, say, the New York Post. Would this be kosher? -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 17:28, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

See this essay on fact laundering for an argument for "no" Slp1 (talk) 17:46, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Short -- too short -- but very applicable, especially in the way factoids get created and endlessly circulated among political media sites these days. You have an unproven assertion (perhaps even one easily disprovable with little research) appearing in an Op-Ed column in a less than journalistically stellar newspaper, which then gets picked up on by some bloggers who take it as a fact and spread it around some more, and which eventually makes it into a Wikipedia article with a ref back to the newspaper as a reliable source.

But WP:LAUNDER is only an essay -- can this really be used in an argument to remove a highly dubious factoid, especially one that has some hard nosed defenders, from a Wikipedia article? -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 18:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I agree with Blueboar - published op-eds acquire a certain visibility, and an opinion expressed on the op-ed page of the New York Times may be more notable than one expressed on a blog. However, op-eds are a dime a dozen, and efforts to include a specific op-ed are sometimes efforts to prominently display a particular POV. In any case, op-eds are not news, and need to be cited and attributed as opinion rather than fact. What's the specific source you have a question about in reference to this? MastCell ^Talk 18:06, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec)I agree with MastCell that some details about what fact, what newspaper, etc etc would be helpful at this point. Slp1 (talk) 18:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to be really cautious here -- my, um, "spirited debates" on the matter has gotten me into some trouble in the past, as well as caused some sort of OTRS (I don't know any of the details, though.) But in any case... this is a cache of the Op-Ed (it's no longer on the newspaper site). It's the "Mother's Day" anecdote that's the issue. If you Google "Mother's Day" with the author's name, you'll see that the anecdote got some circulation among conservative/right wing blog/media sites, but that Op-Ed is the sole source of the anecdote. Even though the Op-Ed was from a few years ago, the Mother's Day bit was added to a Wikipedia article just this past September. I first tried to remove it on the basis of certain content issues, and then tried to at least get it modified, but it has been a battle, to say the least. I belatedly discovered that it was only an Op-Ed opinion piece, which struck me as being perhaps in violation of Wikipedia's policies regarding reliable sources; however, WP:RS doesn't discuss at all Op-Eds or even editorials in general, and WP:V doesn't seem to clarify things either. I've cited WP:PROVEIT and such in the past to no avail. WP:REDFLAG seems to be the closest applicable guideline I could find. It just seems logical that opinion pieces should not be considered reliable sources, with the only exception being as described above -- if it's written by a notable person, like Al Gore, and used only in the context of showing what his opinion is. A penny for your thoughts.... -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 19:00, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

A difficult point. If it is the case that this particular op-ed is frequently quoted, it counts as a notable opinion from that point of view. However, as a source of facts - "A former member of the Home Guard has pointed out that Bush's physical was on Mothers Day, when he seems to recall everything was shut" - I think it sounds faintly ridiculous. The man's credentials alone don't really qualify him as a notable opinion, but if the piece is widely quoted it might be notable. I'd lean towards is not being notable enough for inclusion in a piece on the controversy if uncorroborated in other reliable sources, especially in those reporting facts. Relata refero (talk) 19:16, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Apparently the Campenni "Mother's Day" report was published as a guest column, not a blind letter to the editor. The newspaper did check what Campenni was stating, they did not publish it as a random letter. Campenni also mentions records which support his explanation, and that he is speaking as someone who was there so has some authority about the situation. (details of the previous discussion are in the article Talk page and archives) From a glance at the Washington Times archives, the paper apparently knows him well enough to have published several items from him. -- SEWilco (talk) 04:29, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

As I've already cited, [3] [4], Op-Eds appear to be opinion pieces generally treated much more like Letters to the Editor than news pieces that are fact checked. That Media Center guide lists the Washington Times, where the Op-Ed appeared (and which has, shall we say, an "odd" reputation) down at 100th place in national circulation, and the Washington Post at 4th. The Post, like most newspapers, copyedits opinion pieces, but does not vet them for accuracy. From that Post link, there is this exchange between the Post's ombudsman, Deborah Howell, and a reader:

Washington, D.C.: "Hi, My question is regarding the opinion/editorial sections of the newspaper. I think that these columns should be fact-checked before being published. I don't think that they should get a free pass on facts just because they are opinion pieces. Recently, The Post has been carrying articles that have been outright lies."

Deborah Howell: "Fact checking is done by the columnists. Copy editors do a lot of checking, but it is not like fact checkers in the magazine world. If columnists make a mistake, those are usually corrected in their columns or on Page 2 if the columnists are in the news pages."

If the Post doesn't fact check opinion pieces for accuracy, as apparently is the case generally with newspapers, why should we expect a much less reputable publication like the Washington Times to do so? And in regards to Campenni, some if not most of his contributions to the Washington Times have indeed just been letters to the editor: [5], [6]. And considering that his letters and op-eds only circulate among conservative/right wing media sites, especially blogs, that doesn't appear to make him a notable enough authority to give his opinions a "Reliable Source" source to justify adding content based on them. But that's just my opinion, which is why I'm bringing up the matter on this noticeboard. -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 14:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

We don't expect them to check facts on the Op-Ed page. But in this case they didn't just print the words, they did check what he was saying. You'll have to challenge this specific article on a different basis than the general policy about opinion pieces because the newspaper did treat it differently than a "too many potholes in the city" random op-ed. He's being used for the Mother's Day information, he has records supporting what he says, he has the experience to interpret the records, he has actually done scheduling for that squadron (and removed holidays from that schedule). -- SEWilco (talk) 15:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem with these points you raise is that you're commenting as though you were told these things or heard them from someone else -- they are not in evidence anywhere. And according to this NPOV guideline: "Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." We've gone in endless circles over this, which is why I'm posting the situation here to get more neutral and authoritative opinions about whether an Op-Ed piece, which it certainly was, that was printed in a conservative/right wing newspaper, which the Washington Times certainly is, that only circulated in the greater conservative/right wing mediasphere, which was certainly the case, meets Wikipedia criteria as being enough of a reliable source to allow inclusion of content based on it. -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 17:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The "highest" level where the anecdote was quoted was in the Weekly Standard here (down towards the bottom). And even the Wikipedia article on the Weekly Standard calls it "an example of advocacy journalism, a genre of journalism based around the expression of ideological opinion," which makes that publication rather dubious as a reliable source as well. With the election season getting into gear, we can expect a great many factoids being created and spread, and with little help, as was the case in 2004, from traditionally reliable mainstream news sources in sorting out what's real, what's not, and even what's utter nonsense. Aside from this particular issue, it might be good for Wikipedia to better clarify its guidelines for acceptible sources and refs, and under what circumstances exceptions, if any, can be made. You have the situation now with the mainsteam media running their own blog sites of uncertain reliability, and with politically progessive web sites like Common Dreams seemingly now being more reliable than many mainstream sources.

As a secondary issue to the use of Op-Ed pieces, suppose the only source for a particular story that becomes widely circulated is an Op-Ed or blog piece. Let's also suppose that the story gets ignored or mentioned/passed along uncritically by one or more mainstream news sources. And finally suppose that the veracity of the story can be easily challenged by looking up primary sources, i.e., calendar dates, FOIA documents, government records, or such -- at what point does sourcing cross over into WP:OR if there is no other way to judge something, widely circulated or not, likely true or false, especially in terms of providing the best available info for a hopefully accurate Wikipedia article? -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 21:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you could say that "A former Texas Air National Guard pilot has claimed that the base would have been closed on Mothers' Day, when Bush's physical was allegedly scheduled." I don't think you can say anything more definite than that with the sources you've pointed to. MastCell ^Talk 22:17, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

But does something like "A former Texas Air National Guard pilot has claimed that the base would have been closed on Mothers' Day, when Bush's physical was allegedly scheduled." belong in an encyclopedia/Wikipedia article? <personal attack removed following previous complaints SEWilco (talk) 04:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC) >

?? How was that a "personal attack" exactly? I was referring to the Washington Times, which is undoubtedly a highly conservative news source, and the story in question indeed only got circulated among other conservative/right media outlets and blogs. The political aspects are central to the whole topic matter, and I do believe it's not exactly appropriate to redact references to this, especially under the label of "personal attack". Your reasoning here would be most appreciated. -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 15:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

An individual complained earlier about your personal attacks. Your phrasing was interpreted as a non-factual observation about that person. -- SEWilco (talk) 15:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

That still doesn't explain what you did in this context - I was referring to the Washington Times and conservative/right wing media. Again, how does "personal attack" fit in here? -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 17:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

And while we're on that particular Wiki article, another source (so to speak) of contention involves this section: if you take a look, you will note a certain lack of refs regarding a "Air Force style manual" that gets mentioned. Until it was reverted a month ago, there had been a reference to the definitive Air Force style manual I had put in a little while back. One of the arguments against my including that ref was that it constituted WP:OR, and that was the reason given for removing it.

The reason given for removing the "Air Force style manual you kept including in the article was that it was a version from 20 years later and couldn't be shown as relevant. It seems you are using this noticeboard as a way to fish for justifications to go back and make your changes to various articles which you feel strongly about. It might be better to avoid these highly contentious subjects for a while. Jmcnamera (talk) 02:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

As has been discussed prior, the Wiki article refers very vaguely, with no refs whatsoever, to an unnamed "Air Force style manual" that supposedly shows the Killian documents having the incorrect format. However, as had been pointed out, the authoritative Air Force writing guide The Tongue and Quill, as well as document samples based on it, shows this not to be the case. So on one hand you have an utterly unsupported assertion; on the other, you have readily available refs -- in the Wikipedia world, what is suppose to have more weight? As far as your argument that the referenced "The Tongue and Quill" version was from 20 years later and hence not relevant -- again it had been pointed out with this reference that the "The Tongue and Quill" originated in the mid-70's, only a couple of years after the time of the Killian documents, and that the revisions since only "include improved organization of the information, a rearranged layout, updated quotes, art and word lists, and new information on writing and speaking such as persuasive communications, meetings, briefings and electronic communications."

And further, the validity of the "The Tongue and Quill" as "the" pertinent ref was buttressed by sample government memos contemporaneous to and even dated earlier than the Killian documents. These sample documents also match up with the format recommendations and samples from AF writing guides like the "The Tongue and Quill". It could be that the real question here is why you and some others have been so adamant about keeping assertions that are not only unreferenced, but are also contradicted by whatever references that can be located. It might perhaps be helpful for others on this noticeboard not familiar with the overall situation if you could explain that reasoning here for them. -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 15:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Another "source" of contention was my inclusion of a selection of military memos from before and contemporaneous to the documents in question. For all the intense debates regarding formats, nobody had thought to locate other military memos from that era for comparison. In this case, there had been a lack of refs because the news media, for whatever reason, chose not to look this stuff up. What do you then do when you have a Wikipedia article discussing "Topic F" without any cites because there are no applicable reliable (or unreliable) sources to cite for "Topic F" aside using primary sources? Do you include those primary sources and risk charges of WP:OR, do you simply remove the Wiki section despite it being something that had been publicly discussed, or you just leave it in with a whole bunch of "citation needed" tags? Tricky business, no? -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 01:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

As you guys can see from above, this is not only tricky territory, but it's highly contentious, to put it mildly, as well. And there is more to it than the Op-Ed thing, so I'm really hoping for is some good, well-reasoned, authoritative guidance here that I can take to the appropriate Talk pages and get some long disputed issues finally put to rest. Thanks in advance for any assistance. -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 18:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Op-eds are hardly unvetted--newspapers select (and pay for!) the ones they want to publish. Even individual items are sometimes--though rarely--not published in a particular newspaper. The relationship of the newspaper to the op-ed author resembles that of the publisher: they do not certify the accuracy as they do of news, but they do lend a degree of responsibility. and, as with a publisher, the authority beyond that is the authority of the particular writer and his reputation. Thinking of them as a "publisher" I think is the appropriate guideline for ther intermediate position.DGG (talk) 21:56, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The central point, though, is that Op-Eds are still only opinion pieces when all is said and done. And if the newspapers publishing them do not certify their accuracy as they do news pieces, doesn't that by definition make them all fail Wikipedia's stated standard for Reliable sources? From this:

Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.[4] Reliable sources are necessary both to substantiate material within articles and to give credit to authors and publishers in order to avoid plagiarism and copyright violations. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article and should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources.

So, for example, in the case of the Washington Post, their news pieces go through a full fact-check vetting process to ensure accuracy, but by their own admission, their Op-Eds do not, meaning that Op-Eds from even one of the best US newspapers apparently do not meet Wikipedia's stated criteria for reliable sources. Me thinks. You thinks? -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 01:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Op-Ed Example

Today, Sunday, January 20, 2007, the NY Times published this Op-Ed by Frank Rich. In the Op-Ed, Rich writes, "Never mind that the G.O.P. is running on empty, with no ideas beyond the incessant repetition of Reagan’s name." as though this is an indisputable fact. Now would this allow me to make an edit in the Wikipedia article on the GOP that goes something like "The G.O.P. has no ideas beyond the incessant repetition of Reagan’s name" using the Op-Ed as a ref? -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 17:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Criterion

There has been a pronouncement here and extended in reverts to mean that certain peer reviewed journals are not to be considered as RS. Now some are obvious but much seems to be POV like item 6. In particular though I would like to establish the RS bonafides of

1 |journal=Neuro Endocrinol. Lett.

2. journal=Med. Hypotheses

3. Medical science conference papers such as ( McGregor, N.R. (1998). "Alterations in Plasma Lipid Composition in Patients with CFS". Conference Proceedings, The Clinical and Scientific Basis of CFS, Sydney 1998. P38. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) ) The abstract of which is here note that the conference paper is cited not the website. Given that Wlki has a Cite Conference Template citing conferences with examples similar to the one above I would assume that it is thus acceptable. The qualification given as to limit this seems to be POV also. AS this supposed criterion is still being used to revert edits an opinion as requested is sought. Jagra (talk) 07:34, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

This diff, [7] may be useful to establish the context in which the sources were added (discussing the efficacy of a treatment) and wikipedia has a stub on Medical Hypotheses which states, "The papers do not have to go through the peer review process". This is supported by this page [8] by the founder of the journal. JamesStewart7 (talk) 06:02, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Med hypotheses is easy: it did not publish research, but biomedical hyoptheses, generally extremely speculative. I regret its demise, for I always found at least one or two of the articles i each issue fascinating. But it never pretendedto be a peer reviewed journal in the usual sense. It can support nothing except that "X proposed as an hypothesis that...."

Neuroendocrinology letters claims to be peer reviewed, and a number of libraries have it. I personally have a rather low opinion--I cancelled my university library's subscription back in 1990. Its editorial board is not reassuring. But it's in Web of Science, so one can look to see if any articles have cited the one of interest. Since recent years are online, one could try Google Scholar. If nobody --or only a few people--have cited an article, it is not authoritative.

Conferences vary. Some of them are as authoritative as the best journals. some accept anything that is submitted. There is no general rule. What is a good general rule is to look for articles by the same author that are in peer reviewed journals--in this case using PubMed. if none can be found, s/he is obviously not an established authority in the subject. DGG (talk) 01:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems if you look at the instructions that Med Hypotheses is subject to peer review [ http://ees.elsevier.com/ymehy/ thus] and in accordance with the Elsevier review System. here The difference being it seems that the review determines whether or not it is published rather than the changes to be made by an editor, and I think this is what the founder was infering. Jagra (talk) 01:51, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

A question about bibliographical data

I am sorry to disturb you with my question, but, after a mini edit-war, as a last solution I decided to ask your experienced opinion. In the New World Translation article it is stated:

Frederick Franz’s credentials of record show very little if any formal training in biblical languages.[ref]University of Cincinnati transcript of Frederick W. Franz. Franz failed to earn either a postgraduate or graduate degree. He took 15 hours of Latin, 21 hours of classical Greek, and a single 2-hour credit class in a course titled “The New Testament—A course in grammar and translation.” The Greek studied by Franz is a different system of grammar than biblical Greek.[ref]

I repeatedly asked bibliographical data for this file, and I was answered that the reference itself (as you see it above) is adequate bibliographical data. Is it really? Can this reference stand alone as bibliographical data?

Thank you in advance for your time.

Best regards,

--Vassilis78 (talk) 14:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

the entire paragraph can not stand. It is an excellent example of the harm done by using undigested primary sources and interpreting them with OR. From the facts of his courses, one cannot conclude whether his formal training is adequate. One can say he has as aBS degree, but no higher degree, if that can be documented. But even in terms of proper use of primary sources, I dont see how a transcript from one college would prove it, because he might have taken graduate work at another. DGG (talk) 01:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

DGG: What is the paragraph are you talking about? Vassilis78 cites a single sentence followed by a reference. The sentence in question reads, “Frederick Franz’s credentials of record show very little if any formal training in biblical languages.” Though Vassilis78 provides the reference given of Mr. Franz’s transcript from the University of Cincinnati, the same editor, Vassilis78, failed to provide the additional two references cited for the same sentence. Those two sources are provided as “The Watchtower, May 1, 1987 pp. 23-24” and “Rhodes R ThD, The Challenge of Cults and New Religions, The Essential Guide to Their History, 2001, p. 84”.

1) Franz’s university transcript shows he did not complete his university education at U of C, and his course load demonstrates little if any formal training in biblical languages.

2) The Watchtower of May 1, 1987 pp. 23-24 publishes Franz’s account of his life story. In that account Franz states, “With my father’s permission, I had left the University of Cincinnati in May 1914, just a couple of weeks before the end of my third term there as a junior classman.” In his life story, though Franz spends considerable time speaking about his university education, he never asserts that he completed his university education, either at U of C or any other institution.

3) In his book The Challenge of Cults and New Religions, The Essential Guide to Their History, author Ron Rhodes Thd writes, “[Frederick Franz] was not professionally trained in biblical studies, but he is regarded now as having been more knowledgeable than previous Watchtower presidents.”

Combined, are you of the opinion that these sources do not verify the assertion that “Frederick Franz’s credentials of record show very little if any formal training in biblical languages”? The only formal training of record is the transcript from U of C, and that transcript shows little if any training in biblical languages.

Since you have seen fit to comment as you have, your further response would be appreciated.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 13:57, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

We actually have two problems conserning the transcript from the University of Cincinnati. The first, about which I asked help, has to do with the citation data of the "transcript." There is no such data at all and we are expected to trust the personal testimony of Marvin Shilmer.
The second case is that the personal testimony of Marvin Shilmer has no value because it is original research added with personal conclusions as regards F. Franz's credentials to translate. So the reference is questionable in every aspect and I propose its deletion. The only opinions acceptable about F. Franz's credentials are those that have bibliographical support.

P.S. Not to forget, F. Franz's participation in the specific tranlation project is a speculation by itself. The whole critisism about Franz's credentials has to do with the speculation of his participation in the project. (Hence, the whole story is POV).

--Vassilis78 (talk) 15:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Vassilis78: Your further assertions here are shocking!

The data provided is 1) the name of the university of record (University of Cincinnati) and 2) the full name of the student (Frederick W. Franz). This is all the information necessary to request the transcript of record. Indeed, this is all the information at my disposal when I requested and received the transcript. So why is this information insufficient for any other editor to request and receive the same document?

Because the edit is based on information found in the public record (a university transcript, a published life story, and a statement in a published book) then on what basis are you asserting the information is “the personal testimony of Marvin Shilmer”? I have not asked anyone to take my word for anything. I have provided sources for purposes of verification!

As for Franz’s participation with the New World Translation, I have also cited court testimony by Fred Franz himself where under oath he testifies that he was the Editor and that, specifically, he was charged to review the New World Translation for accuracy and correctness. I see that, again, you provide less than full information. Why do you keep doing this?--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 15:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Part of the definition of a 'reliable source' in Wikipedia is "published". Being part of a public record is not enough. A university transcript does not meet the definition of a 'reliable source'. -- Donald Albury 17:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Donald Albury: With due respect, university transcripts are publish-on-demand documents. Because a document is not published for general distribution does not mean it is not published. To my knowledge, Wikipedia does not discriminate against publish-on-demand documents so long as the source of the document is reliable. I have no reason to question the reliability of the University of Cincinnati. Do you?--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 18:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Donald Albury: Researching the issue of whether university transcripts can be used for verification I found the following:

On this very page I find the statement: “However, in the specific case of interviews with notable people conducted by accredited reporters on Wikinews who provide a complete transcript or recording of the interview, I think we can use the interview as a reliable source. I have read the Wikinews Accreditation Policy, and find it provides the key ingredient of assuring that the source is a real identifiable person with a known track record, and a reputation to protect. Because reporters must reveal their real legal name to be accredited, it is not possible to create throw-away accounts for doing mischief. As to the editorial supervision, there is a process for revoking credentials in that process. I think we can also safely assume that material will be removed if it is substantially questioned to protect the reputation of Wikinews, so this meets the needs of Wikipedia for editorial supervision. The material should not be considered self-published, because although reporters initiates the process, they do not have ultimate control of the publication process, as they would on a blog.”

If a complete transcript provided by an accredited reporter is considered a reliable source then why would we not also accept a complete transcript from an accredited university as a reliable source?

In Wikipedia’s No Original Research policy, we see that "administrative documents" are considered as primary source material. If administrative documents are considered primary source material then why should we consider the administrative document of an educational transcript as anything less than secondary source material when it is issued by a third-party accredited institution? --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 19:57, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The verifiability policy states (in the section reliable sources), "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." I have never heard of this "publish-on-demand" concept. Can you point to a policy in Wikipedia that allows such to be used as sources? I would also note that the Wikinews case is a special exception, and is irrelevant to whether we allow citations to unpublished material (after all, the interviews discussed have been published by Wikinews). -- Donald Albury 20:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Donald Albury: First of all, your response is appreciated.

Wikipedia does not make any distinction between documents issued/published for general distribution compared to documents issued/published on demand when both documents are provided by a source “with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy”. If Wikipedia does not make this distinction then how can you? Educational transcripts are issued/provided upon request just like court transcripts are issued/provided on request.

Court/trial transcripts are only rarely published for general distribution, but court transcripts are routinely used as secondary source material because they are available for copying/issuing on demand and they come from a source “with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy” (or course not all judicial sources are reliable just as not all universities are reliable, which is why I asked you if you took issue with the U of C’s reliability). If we apply your expressed criteria we would have to deny court transcripts as a verifiable source. Is this your position?

Additionally, do you consider a primary source (e.g., an “administrative document”) of information as unreliable when that information addresses a third-party, such as a university transcript addresses educational credentials of an individual?

Finally, if we accept as reliable articles published by university presses for general distribution based on the reputation of the institution, it is then absurd to deny educational transcripts from the same institution as reliable. Conversely, if an institution's educational transcripts are unreliable there is no way in the world that articles publish by the same source can be deemed reliable simply because they is published for general distribution. Your further review is requested.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 21:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

University presses are not universities. Universities publish press releases, and all sorts of things with no intrinsically greater reliability than other press releases. A university's publication about how high its reputation is, for example, is not to be taken as authoritative! University presses publish on the basis of extensive peer-review of the submitted manuscripts. second, the proper use of primary sources is a matter for research unless they are self explanatory or used--appropriately--as a quotation. In this case, proving someone's receipt of a degree by a link to a published version of the transcript is acceptable. Proving there never was one from a particular university is a little trickier--there might have been one subsequently. This is a job for the investigative journalist or biographer, not Wikipedia. (And I note that even the best journalists and biographers have sometimes failed or disagreed in interpreting primary documents.) Even more clearly, concluding the quality of someone's education from his transcript, is an matter of interpretation. How much biblical Greek one learns in a certain course is not something to be assumed by bare statement here--this is exactly the sort or OR interpretation which is not permitted--an excellent illustration of why we need such a policy. But there is a more general rule: unpublished archives may not be cited on wikipedia, since they are not generally accessible. If the transcript were to be published in a RS, perhaps you could cite it but still not interpret it. Of the material mentioned above, you could probably best use Ron Rhode's opinion--quoting such a secondary source in adequate fullness & context is the way to do it. You asked on my talk page for my further opinion--now you have it. DGG (talk) 22:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

DGG: Your further comments are appreciated.

I have not said that university presses are universities. Neither have I suggested that a university’s statement of its own reputation is authoritative, and I have no idea why you suggest this. But taking the time to express this is appreciated.

Regarding Franz’s university transcript of record, my remarks state no more an no less than what the transcript presents in terms of courses and credits earned. The rest is verified by sources that Vassilis78 conveniently left out.

What do you mean by “generally accessible” in relation to a university transcript? These are published on demand, particularly for deceased individuals who attended nearly 100 years ago. These records are as accessible as the nearest web browser, postal box or telephone. All an editor has to do is ask for the information and pay the administrative cost of having it processed and delivered. This is no more expensive or complicated than having your library deliver reference material at your request. So, again, what do you mean by “generally accessible”?

As for “published,” if the document in question had never been published I would not have a copy. So what do you mean by “publish,” and where is this expressed in Wikipedia policy?

It is difficult to contemplate how a university transcript of record could in any way be considered less than a reliable source. Universities stake their reputations on maintaining the viability of this information, and accurately providing it. As for peer review, the students themselves even get a voice in the matter if they disagree with what is on their transcript.

Any further assistance you can present is appreciated.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 00:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Marvin Shilmer: Since you have ignored my request on my talk page and continue to pester me to respond to you here, I will make myself clear here. I am not at your beck and call, and you do not tell me when or where to post. I find your arguments to be invalid under Wikipedia policy, and I find your argumentation annoying and tedious. -- Donald Albury 01:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Donald Albury: I said I would abide by your request, and I will. I do not consider you at my beck and call, and I do not tell you when or where to post. As you have done, I too have shared an opinion. Unfortunately your opinions have degenerated now to the personal and have left unanswered questions to the subject needing considered discussion. It is one thing to state an argument is invalid. It is another to demonstrate this is the case.

If you choose to actually address the questions posed above, your contribution will be appreciated and responded to based on whatever merit you offer. So far all you’ve done is assert an opinion without substantiating it. You have suggested a distinction as Wikipedia policy that Wikipedia policy does not make. When questions are asked of this distinction, you end up feeling pestered. I am not the one who brought this issue here, but I intend to see the end of it because it involves my work! I see you have post-graduate degrees. Perhaps you would find it amusing were I to deny an official university transcript as a reliable source evidencing those degrees? This is precisely what you have argued!--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 01:51, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Marvin Shilmer. This question is currently appertaining to a MedCabal case and although outside views are welcome i would like to suggest that discussion is kept limited to the talk page or the case page/talk page. As the mediator it is difficult at best to deal with the various discussions that are occurring and chasing discussions across wiki is not something i particularly wish to be doing. I feel the idea of MedCabal is to provide a medium for this discussion to take place rather than for it too be spilling all over wikipedia. Seddon69 (talk)

Seddon69: For reasons you express, earlier I initiated questions of the academic aspect of this issue (the important part) below to University Issued Transcripts. Besides that, the question as presented here is poorly designed with a result that input is all over the place. The academic aspect of the issue raised is more precise and deserves a thorough fleshing out. But, again, this should be done aside and away from the wrangling you are involved with. I have no problem participating on several fronts. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 03:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

To end this funny story, Marvin Shilmer, it is enough to cite Don Rhodes opinion or other published opinions about Franz's credentials as a translator. If you want to do a reporter's or biographer's job and to draw your own conclusions, nothing prevents you from making your personal web-page. I think the case is closed.--Vassilis78 (talk) 08:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Vassilis78: I am unaware that I drew conclusions of the Franz transcript. What I assert of Franz's education is based on his U of C transcript, his published life-story, and the book by Ron (not Don) Rhodes. Administrators above have still not answered, or even addressed, your specific question of bibliograpic data, which says something. The academic issue I have taken up below with a new question. Feel free to share.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 00:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Narrowing the Issue

This discussion is narrowed for comment in the subject heading University Issued Transcripts, and narrowed again in the subject heading What is “published”?. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 17:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Would you trust this source?

For this section of the article Steamroller (pipe):

A steamroller is used by filling the bowl with cannabis, putting one's hand over the end of the pipe nearest the bowl, putting the other end in one's mouth, lighting and inhaling until the chamber is filled with smoke, and then removing one's hand from the end and quickly inhaling the collected smoke.

I provided this source. The source was deleted as unreliable. I understand that a site such as that isn't going to be a reliable source on things like the Wankel rotary engine or neurosurgery, but you're not going to find Harvard-published sources on the correct technique of how to use a cannabis pipe. (Besides, who would you trust, a 75-year-old Sociology professor, or some guy who was probably baked while he was writing the instructions?) Torc2 (talk) 19:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

If no reliable source can be found for the statement then it should not be included in the article. As WP:V states "If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." To more directly answer your question, that source is not reliable and its reliability does not change because it is hard to find more reliable sources on the subject JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:51, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Why is this source not reliable? Clearly the author has experience with the subject, and the claim being sourced is an issue of basic usage. Torc2 (talk) 12:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Open publishing sites, like E2, Indymedia, or us, are never reliable sources. Period, full stop. Anybody can sound like he knows what he's talking about. <eleland/talkedits> 19:47, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Swing Videos

Was added to the Swing (dance) article. I reviewed the site and there's no requirement to join, no advertisements other than header of the creator of the how-to video. Is that enough to disqualify the link under WP:EL? Dances are inherently live-action and descriptions of each style or step is very hard without a video so this is a good idea just have they satisfied the WP requirements. Alatari (talk) 13:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

British National Party

There are a large number of sources used throughout the article relating to faschism. These sources are proberbly unreliable due to their age. The party has had a change in leadership and moved more mainstream since the artiles were written. The sources listed below related directly to the info box.

Fascism theory & practice (London, 1999}
"Contemporary Fascism in the Local Arena: the British National Party and Rights for Whites" in Cronin, M (ed)
The Failure of British Fascism (Basingstoke, 1996)

--Lucy-marie (talk) 14:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Is there any newer research that contradicts their findings? // Liftarn (talk)

I am not sure, but I think that due to the significant shift since the change in leadership. No research has been caried out in to the current party and these sources are mainly historic based on old leadership and party policy.--Lucy-marie (talk) 15:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This has come up before in rfcs, there is little contradictory findings and a number of reliable sources dismiss the 'move to mainstream' as purely a facade and no significant shift in policy has been proven. Most significanlty, Dr Nigel Copsey, a noted expert in right wing extremism in his paper Changing course or changing clothes? Reflections on the ideological evolution of the British National Party 1999-2006 --neonwhite user page talk 01:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

TV Guides

Are interviews and reports in TV guides reliable?--Lucy-marie (talk) 14:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Interviews with Directors, Writers and Actors about their lives or works are reliable. Alatari (talk) 16:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I am thinking how reliable are some of the interviews say regarding speculation over future shows etc.--Lucy-marie (talk) 18:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

You just won't give up will you, Lucy? Even when you have your question answered, you won't believe it. I'm getting ready to launch a request for third-party intervention where you and your ridiculous antics are concerned. Angelriver (talk) 21:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I am here to try and fathom out what constitutes a reliable source on wikipedia. This is to enable the enhancement of the quality of the encyclopedia. Without working out the boundries of what a relaible source is, arguments can be bought and drag on for days. Working out what constitutes a reliable source prior to the arguments occuring, prevents the arguments occuring at all.--Lucy-marie (talk) 11:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

If that's the case, shouldn't you have done this BEFORE you asked me to provide the reference? What you are asking for now is, not only references to prove notability, but references for the references. And just so you know, TV Guide issued its first publication on April 3, 1953. I think that a publication that has been in existence for nearly 53 years, a publication specifically about TV entertainment no less, is a reliable resource. Angelriver (talk) 13:00, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

How can you ask if a source is reliable without the source?, The age of a publication does not make it a reliable source. The Hittler diaries have been around for 25 years and are completly unreliable hoaxes. I am not say TV guide is a hoax or fake, just that the age of something does not increase its reliability.--Lucy-marie (talk) 13:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

You could have provided examples of what you thought were reliable resources before asking me to provide the reference. And there is a difference between someone's diary and an ONGOING publication. Angelriver (talk) 13:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Lucy, there is a big difference in a hoax work and a publication that has been continually produced for over half a century. TV Guide is a respected publication and I doubt you can find one person here who does not consider it to be reliable. You asked for a source on a specific subject and when it was provided, you came in and tried to get it discredited. --MiB-24 (talk) 15:37, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

TV Guide is certainly RS under our rules and guidelines. However, given that you are talking about speculation... I would attribute the statement directly to TV Guide: (something like "TV Guide has speculated that blah blah blah<cite to TV Guide article>"). Blueboar (talk) 17:17, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The speculation that was being discussed is whether or not a specific character would return for the new season of “24.” When Lucy asked for proof, Angel provided a TV Guide interview which clearly stated the character would return. It wasn’t TV Guide that was speculating. Instead, they confirmed what had been speculated about here on Wikipedia. --MiB-24 (talk) 17:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Then per Blueboar, something like "X (name of interviewee) has stated that blah blah blah". Tyrenius (talk) 02:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

If TV Guide has an interview with a producer, writer, or director (maybe not another actor) on 24 stating that a character would return then I would consider it RS. If TV Guide had an article predicting which brand of computer would win out next year then I would consider it not RS. Alatari (talk) 07:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Goodness, I wish I knew what all this hostility was about. Publications like TV Guide have a reputation for gossiping, and no clear separation between fact and opinion. That said, an interview is a direct transcript of remarks made by someone else, and not subject to the same objection. As long as we're talking about one of the larger and more reliable TV newsmagazines, their interviews can be taken as reliable. The article should say something like, "The show's co-producer Dave McFakeName told TV Publication that 'we'll definitely be seeing more of Jane's character in Season 4'." <eleland/talkedits> 19:51, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Wot's all this then?

It appears that after this change was made, a whole bunch of active discussions on this board disappeared. I'm assuming that I'm not the only who noticed, but FYI. -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 20:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It was accidentally deleted. I've restored it below. --Haemo (talk)

now back above, I believe. --Slp1 (talk) 02:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks (again). I also reported it on WP:AN/I. And just after I did that, this thing was posted just below it, which made me wonder for a little bit if something bigger was happening.... -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 20:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Urban Dictionary

I've long seen citations to Urban Dictionary characterized as a non-reliable source because the site can be freely edited by anyone. I thought there used to be specific wording to the effect that sites that allowed open editing of their contents were not reliable sources, but I can't find it now. I am now dealing with an established editor who states that Urban Dictionary is a reliable source because many entries have been in it for years. It is still an open-editing site, so I still regard it as unreliable, but I don't see anything specific to support that position? So, is or is not Urban Dictionary a reliable source? -- Donald Albury 21:51, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely not. As you mentioned, it is a freely edited site that anyone can use to push a personal agenda or add incorrect information. Like blogs, this site cannot be used to source facts. GlassCobra 21:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I thought I should get a sanity check before proceeding with this. -- Donald Albury 14:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Are all blogs even those of respected journalists or scientists about topics in their profession unreliable? Alatari (talk) 07:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

no, some are reliable--it depends though on their individual reputation which must be demonstrated. In science, there is a collection, Scienceblogs, which is considered of at least some degree of quality. But in any such publication, one most pay regard to the particular individual reputation of the blogger. I tend to be tolerant here, but that's because i work professionally in a field where some lists and blogs are the major reliable sources of information. It's only fair to say that some people here disagree with my position on this very distinctly--I doubt there is really a firm consensus. DGG (talk) 22:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

My interpretation is a bit tighter; you can cite a blog of a recognized expert for what the blogger has to say about his area of expertise, given that it is firmly established that the cited material was posted by the recognized expert (and not a response for a reader), and that the citation makes it clear it is the blogger's commentary/interpretation/opinion that is being cited, rather than a statement of fact. -- Donald Albury 23:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

You wouldn't use it as the sole source for anything likely to be disputed, but it might be OK for background information, i.e. for examples on how a slang term is used, after notability has already been established by published sources. I'd consider that usage more as a footnoted "external link" than as a source per se. Squidfryerchef (talk) 23:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Open publishing websites like UrbanDictionary, E2, Wikipedia, and IndyMedia are unreliable sources. Period, full stop. Anybody can sound like he knows what he's talking about; Wikipedia has much more stringent fact-checking and sourcing requirements than UD, and yet we've had hoaxes, nonsense, and puffery stand unchallenged for years. <eleland/talkedits> 19:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Google Cache

My assumption is that the original webpage is more reliable than a cache of the page from a search engine such as Google; however, an editor in this article has been using Google cache of otherwise reliable sources (Assuming U.S. Government sites are consider reliable for U.S. Monetary Policy). So, are caches of websites from a search engine considered reliable sources? --EGeek (talk) 06:18, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I've been using the Internet Archive to recover dead links. Why do you think that cached/archived web pages are less reliable than the original? Personally, I don't think that cached/archived pages are any more of a problem than any other web pages. All citations to web pages suffer the problem that web pages, in general, are much less likely to be authoritative than printed paper sources, and all web pages are ephemeral and may disappear at any time, whereas it is highly unlikely that all copies of a printed source would suddenly disappear. -- Donald Albury 14:54, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree on that, Google cache or archive.org are about as reliable as the webpage that was archived. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 02:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

One concern is that when a given URL stops working, it could have been taken down for a reason. This is less of a concern with a newspaper website, but the one case I remember was a commercial claim, made by the maker of a product. If the link to the claim becomes dead, it's possible that the maker is no longer asserting the claim. For example reference 4 in this version of the Juice Plus article. This provided hours of debate on Talk:Juice Plus as to whether the claim had been withdrawn by the manufacturer. I don't think there is a general answer as to whether cache links are reliable sources. If the cached link is to a document that is still available published on paper (for instance, in libraries) there should be no problem. EdJohnston (talk) 23:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Sealand News

There is a question regarding an difference of terms between the "Sealand News", which according to their site is the "Official newspaper of Sealand" as per here, and the official website of Sealand as per [9]. The disagreement is about the term "micronation". The Sealand News describes Sealand as a "micronation", the Sealand site itself does not use that word. It has been argued that the Sealand News, while officially recognized as Sealand's official newsservice, is independent of the government, although that statement has yet to be verified. It can and should be pointed out that Sealand has sent representatives to several recent micronations conventions however. Would the Sealand News, in this instance, be a sufficiently reliable source to indicate that Sealand considers itself a micronation or not? John Carter (talk) 18:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I would say neither is verifiable. --neonwhite user page talk 00:36, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that both of those sources are reliable only in a very limited way, in that they state what the residents of the platform have said about themselves. I'm not sure I see the distinction with the definition of "micronation", but the two sources both state that Sealand considers itself a sovereign principality. So it would appear OK to mention that's what they consider themselves, as shown by those sources, but those sources would not stand as a way to indicate how the place is defined by anyone else. That's my view after reading the links... though I was not able to find the word "micronation" in either of them. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 02:03, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Sophroniscus

I just wanted to post here a notice that I am concerned about User:Sophroniscus' talk page and edits. Via another article I came upon the article Alphonsa Muttathupadathu, created by this user. I tried to clean up the WP:POV ([10]), but the problem is the article in question relies exlusively on non-neutral, religious apologeticist external links, making claims such as "miraculously" which are inherently unencyclopaedic, in my opinion. I made both of the last two clean-up edits, but the most recent time, having somehow logged myself out w/o realizing it, only reflects an anonymous IP.

The language on this user's talk page ([11]) is almost wholly confessional and disturbingly fundamentalist in nature (i.e. "It is better to let the nations rage than to be dragged down into their errors. For God has abandoned the world to its darkness.") I have not contacted him directly because his/her talk page contains a section called "Garbage In, Garbage Out", which is what I suspect he would regard anything I had to say.

I am not a religious bigot and I know that any user is entitled to hold any/all religious beliefs. But, given that this user has created scores of articles and edited scores of articles (at least some reviewed by User:Essjay), and given the presence of other religious apologists and propagandists on Wikipedia in the past I felt compelled to bring this to the attention of WP:AN/I for fear that this user may be attempting to use Wikipedia to engage in religious propaganda. I hope an objective administrator can review and decide. Thanks.216.194.56.204 (talk) 01:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC) (I did the same thing again). Yellow-bellied sapsucker (talk) 01:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Withdrawn - already answered at WP:AN/I Yellow-bellied sapsucker (talk) 14:03, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

'respected publishing houses', how to tell?

Resolved

I am looking for some guidance and advice please.

I see in the WP:Sources section "...books published by respected publishing houses;" and "reputation for fact checking". How is an editor to quantify 'well respected' or 'reputation for fact checking'? For instance, I might guess that Duke University Press is well respected with good reputation, though some editors would disagree. Or, for instance, I could also guess whether Paladin Press is well respected, but some editors would also disagree. Or, what about Praeger Press?

Is there any way to objectively measure a publishing house's 'respect' and 'reputation' as defined by WP:V? SaltyBoatr (talk) 21:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

depends on the subject. There is no objective ranking, and all publishers publish a range of books of varying quality. The way one evaluates them as a librarian has been to look at the reputation of the other books they have published in the subject. Factors to look for are number of titles in an area, where they have been reviewed and what the reviews say, how many and which libraries hold them, and the individual reputations of their authors. In the academic world, but that's just the academic world, university publishers often (that's "often", not "always") have a higher reputation for quality than commercial, but within each group it varies widely. To take your examples, and giving my personal general impression, which I could not prove to withstand cross-examination without a very extended discussion, Duke is one of the most respected publishers in the humanities, Paladin Press is one of the top non-academic publishers within their specific field on specialization, and Praeger is a good specialized publisher for the applied social sciences. But there is the additional factor in each case that the overall quality of the scholarly humanities literature is very high, of the literature in the self-defense field, very variable, and in the applied social sciences, somewhere in the middle.

there is only one firm rule--self-publishing & vanity-publishers are not reputatble, but even here there are exceptions. DGG (talk) 22:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

University Issued Transcripts

Resolved

1) Are transcripts issued by an accredited university considered under Wikipedia standards as a reliable source to evidence a person’s earned academic credits and/or degrees from the issuing institution?

2) If university issued transcripts are considered a reliable source for the purpose of evidencing a person’s earned academic credits and/or degrees from the issuing institution, then what bibliographic information is sufficient to reference this under Wikipedia standards? --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 02:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

These are interesting questions. On the first one, I have to ask: why would it be necessary to go through all of this trouble to cite academic transcripts? Surely, if the subject is notable, a third-party (or preferably multiple third-party sources) has/have already published something on the subject's academic degrees and credentials. Why not simply cite those third-party sources (e.g., newspapers, journal articles, or books) and be done with it? If there aren't any such sources, I would start to question the notability of the WP subject--but perhaps that's a separate matter. I suspect that the answer is that transcripts are primary sources that risk selection bias in interpretation and extrapolation. In short, original synthesis.

On the second question, admittedly, this would be the first time I would see them being used on Wikipedia. Also, my EndNote citation software does not have a reference type entitled "academic transcripts." I mention it because, in my experience, I've never read an academic paper where the author cites academic transcripts. This is not to suggest that (say) a historian has not attempted this type of citation somewhere. It just strikes me as a little unusual. FWIW, J Readings (talk) 03:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

J Readings: I appreciate your considered response. It is no trouble to cite an academic transcript when the student was born in the late 19th Century, which happens to be true in the instance leading to my questions. It is no trouble because retrieving a transcript in this circumstance is easier and less expensive than the process of having my library locate, retrieve and deliver an obscure journal article that was printed for general distribution.

The scenario I run across is this: 1) I stumble upon a source that speaks to the individual’s university achievement at issue, but 2) the source does not cite from where this information comes from. Because the information appears relevant if it is true, I do the legwork to confirm the information by asking my library to retrieve and deliver the transcript of record for me. 3) I receive the transcript and it confirms the source’s presentation of information.

From a purely academic perspective the proper way to verify this information is to cite the source where information was first discovered and also cite the actual transcript of record by indicating the full name of the student and the name of the issuing institution.

When I took this approach editors initially 1) complained that the bibliographic information was insufficient (i.e., name of student and issuing institution). Then editors began 2) arguing that a university transcript is “unpublished” and for that reason it could not be cited. Finally, editors began 3) complaining that citing the transcript amounted to original research. I do not comprehend how any of these complaints could possibly be valid because 1) publicity of the individual’s academic training at issue was not my doing (i.e., I am not the origin of the publicity), 2) citing the issued transcript is no more than verifiable corroboration of the original publicity, and 3) a transcript issued by an accredited institution is every bit as reliable as journal articles published by a press of which the same institution is the parent organization. The reliability of a transcript as old as the one in question increases with time because the student has had ample opportunity to remedy any inaccuracies (not to mention that the person’s life story is consistent with the transcript of record).

So, the use in question does not present anything new. It is not an original synthesis. The use in question is purely corroborative. In fact, the incident in question cites three sources. 1) The person’s life story published with their permission and cooperation wherein is confirmed the university attended and dates, and an overview of course work, 2) a research publication (book) publicizing the individual’s formal academic training and 3) the individual’s university transcript. Essentially the only thing the transcript does that the other sources do not do is to detail actual classes taken and credit hours earned. The latter details are expressed within online articles written by questionable sources, but it seems nonsensical that citing a dubious online source is necessary given the verifiability of the three sources already cited.

Any additional comments you want to add will be appreciated.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 16:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I assume this is a continuation of the debate that started above, at #A_question_about_bibliographical_data. Wikipedia expects that only published sources will be used to substantiate articles. This is clear from a reading of WP:PSTS, which explains primary, secondary and tertiary sources. Even the sources called 'primary' in that policy are *published* primary sources. A school transcript can't be viewed as a publication. You mention above that you sought out the transcript instead of the 'obscure journal article' that might have made the same point. The obscure article would indeed be citable as a published source (subject only to concerns about undue weight), and as a secondary source, it avoids the difficulties that can arise in interpreting primary sources. EdJohnston (talk) 06:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

EdJohnston: I separated this discussion from the one above because the question asked above is poorly expressed and the resulting responses have lost sight of the academic issue at stake.

You state, “A school transcript can't be viewed as a publication.” Who says this? Does Wikipedia policy say this? Or does the statement manifest a limited and/or selective perspective of what it means to “publish”?

To illustrate the problem created by your statement:

Were I to obtain a university transcript by having the institution “issue” (copy and distribute) a copy to me and then I immediately sent it to Lulu.com for it to “publish” (copy and distribute) on demand through the Lulu system (which it would then do on demand), would you then view the transcript as “published”? If so, then please explain the material difference between the institution providing a copy of the transcript on demand and Lulu providing a copy of the transcript on demand. The only difference I see is that end users can have more confidence in the institution as a source compared to Lulu as a source. Do you see any other difference between these organization’s publishing/issuing (copying and distributing) the same document on demand? --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 23:36, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Once again, the policy says published. No matter how you twist and turn, you cannot convince me that a transcript of which you have ordered a copy has been published. And stop trying to shop around until you find someone to agree with you. That behavior is not helping your case. -- Donald Albury 00:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Donald Albury: So glad to see you respond. Once again, you have offered a non-answer reply. Now if you would actually engage the discussion rather than parroting terms we can all read in Widipedia policy, it would be nice.

Wikipedia policy speaks of published and unpublished documents. I have consulted the usage throughout Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and find none that would contradict the term applied to copies sought and received from a third-party, such as a university. I have also consulted Oxford on these terms, and find no contradiction or inconsistency with using the term "published" in respect to an on demand printing and distribution. Earlier you admitted ignorance of such a thing! Do you think ignorance improves opinions? You have made an assertion of one of these terms. You have asserted that a particular document is not published. Yet the only thing you offer in response is an opinion that it is not published. Do you have anything else to contribute, other than your opinion? Perhaps you could explain why publish on demand (alternately, print on demand) documents are not published when they come from a university but are published when coming from an organization like Lulu.com?

If you want me to stop asking the question then perhaps you should try offering an answer. Asserting an opinion is something you have already done. Opinions are often helpful, but opinions are not always answers. Next it would be nice to see an answer from you. This is why the question is asked.

Earlier you said to me, “you do not tell me when or where to post.” Do you presume to do tell me when and where to post? At least I have shown the decency to explain my actions. You have yet to answer for yourself! --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 01:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Donald Albury: Oh, and one other thing. I am not trying to help any case, mine or anyone else’s. For sure I am not shopping anything. If you want to know why my separate entry under this heading then I suggest you read what I have written, and ask questions of me about my intent.

I am asking a question that, so far as I can tell, has never been raised on Wikipedia. I am not seeking to have any preferential rendering from administrators, or anyone else. I am looking for productive feedback. In the future, I would ask that you refrain from presumptive language directed at my person. I am not the issue. The issue is the question(s) asked. I am not trying to convince you of anything. You are the one who has asserted that transcripts are not published. Okay. I know you say this. Now please show me where Wikipedia policy says this. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 01:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Narrowing the Issue

This discussion is narrowed for comment in the subject heading What is “published”?. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 17:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Ed O'Loughlin

This new article's references are largely opinion pieces in reliable media and analyses by "think tanks", some a bit biased.

Since these references fall into grey areas with regards to the Reliable Sources Guideline and the Verifiability Policy, others opinions would be helpful. Please leave them at Talk:Ed O'Loughlin.

Thanks, --A. B. ^(talk) 18:04, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ed O'Loughlin 2nd attempt‎. --A. B. ^(talk) 23:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

List of Cuban Americans

I have been trying to calmly explain to a rogue editor with multiple accounts that entry of non-valid names on this list from non-reliable sources is not valid. The key points of my argument are as follows:

Fantasia Barrino - In her biography, she claimed "that family rumor" says she might have Cuban ancestry. She uses the word rumor and I have explain to user that rumors are not valid source of information.
Sammy Davis Jr.- While he was alive, Sammy Davis Jr. always described himself as Puerto Rican. yet in an authorized biography released after his death an author claims he was Cuban. My argument here is that aunauthorized bios (think Kitty Kelly) are not valid and Davois's claims nixes entry on this list.
Bacardi family - I have pointed out that the founder of the company was born in Sitges, Spain. His descendants have relocate dto many countries including Puerto Rico, where the produce "Puerto Rican rum" and not "Cuban rum". How can a family claim that they are one nationality when there are members living in the US, Bahamas and Puerto Rico. Again there is a counterclaim for entry on this list.
Eamon de Valera; Eamon's father was born in Spain. Baptismal certificates in Cuba show that someone with a same name was baptized in Cuba. This could be a coincidence but de Valera stated that his father was Spanish in his memoirs. If I was baptized in New York, but lived in New Jersey does that make me a New Yorker? That report has never been confirmed and remains speculation and therefore it is not valid for entry.

This is an ongoing dispute and any help with be greatly appreciated.--XLR8TION (talk) 22:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

- Unfortunately User:XLR8TION chooses to misrepresent the truth about me yet again. I have never used multiple accounts. I have consistently used either my user name or an IP address assigned to my computer since I forgot my account name's password. Ruthermore I have provided references to support my claims (discussion can be found at Talk:List of Cuban Americans) while User:XLR8TION have offered no sourced material just consistent arguing.
- It's an issue of semantics. You'd be right to say that a rumor wouldn't be a valid source of info if it came from a secondary source, but this is a "family rumor" that she herself believes and even included in her autobiography. In that case it is a reputable source because it's coming from Barrino herself. If it was a rumor, from say a gossip blog then it wouldn't considered a reputable source? Do you understand the difference?
- Sammy Davis, Jr.^[1] First chapter of Wil Haygood's book published on The New York Times website reads: "My mother was born in San Juan," Sammy Davis, Jr., proclaimed. But it was a lie, and he knew it. She was born in New York City, of Cuban heritage. The Cuban ancestry, in the wake of the 1962 Cuban missile crisis, which saw President John F. Kennedy and Russian leader Nikita Khrushchev battle to a standoff over nuclear arsenals, made Sammy nervous. Anti-Cuban sentiment had swept the land. The Cuban-haters might begin to dislike him, and Sammy was not in the business of losing admirers and fans. So he flipped the Cuban history-telling relatives to keep quiet about it-with made-up Puerto Rican history." XLR8TION claims this book is based on rumor, but Haygood conducted over 250 interviews with family and friends of Davis, including with Davis' own mother before she passed away. This book has been positively reviewed by The Washington Post, The New York Times and Publisher's Weekly among others.[12]
- The Bacardi family is composed of Americans of Cuban descent. Hence, List of Cuban Americans. Here are two articles, in addition to the one already referenced by their name on the article page: from The Independent[13]]and the BBC [14]. Where the rum is produced is a non-issue, we're taling about the family not the corporation.
- de Valera's father was born in Cuba. At the time, Cuba was still Spanish territory. Hence the confusion. It's no different then someone from Guam or Puerto Rico referring to themselves as Guamanian or Puerto Rican, even if they're nationality is American.

72.144.39.229 (talk) 05:12, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Notice of proposal

As most of you know, there has been a lot of discussion at WP:RS and at WP:V about merging. This is due to the fact that WP:RS keeps getting edited, rewritten, revised, and tweeked to the point where it contradicts things that are said in WP:V (I have seen this occur at least three times in the last two years). The idea is not to get rid of WP:RS, but to move it and make it a sub-section of WP:V.

It is my understanding that this idea has gained a solid consensus on both pages, and the time has come to more formally propose it to the broader community for approval. Since this page is tied to WP:RS, I thought some preliminary notice should be given here. Actually, I don't see a merger having a great impact on this page. There will still be a need for a notice board where editors can enquire about whether a given source is reliable, or complain about articles that need reliable sources.

I encourage those who regularly help out on this page to get involved in the discussions about this merger. At the moment most of the discussions are going on at the WP:RS talk page. Blueboar (talk) 14:16, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Is Wikipedia a reliable source?

In other words, say I wanted to claim on article X that film Y had won a bunch of Academy Awards? Would it be acceptable to put a ref as the List of films receiving six or more Academy Awards page, for example, or would I need to ref to the Academy Awards website? I am using this as an example - obviously the outside ref is easy to do in this case, but I hope you get the idea. Thanks. Jay*Jay (talk) 05:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I believe we aren't to cite Wikipedia for Wikipedia articles. Marlith ^T/C 05:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

No, per Marlith. Wikipedia is a tertiary source. Since anyone can edit it, it cannot be considered a reliable source for its own purposes.Ngchen (talk) 06:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

You should be able to copy and paste the sources that article uses. Torc2 (talk) 02:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It would be unwise to do so without verifying that the cited sources support the 'facts' you want to use. Even in WP articles with lots of citations, there may be statements that cannot be verified from any of the cited sources. -- Donald Albury 03:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Snopes

Two parts to this question: Is Snopes a reliable source? And is inclusion of a rumor on Snopes sufficient to say the rumor is "widespread" or "common"? Torc2 (talk) 21:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I would say the site is a reliable source by our rules. However, I am less sure about the second part of your question. Unless snopes states that the rumor is widespread or common we can not make that assumption. Blueboar (talk) 22:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I consider Snopes to be a reliable source on issues related to urban legends. *** Crotalus *** 00:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Blueboar. And extend. It would be argumentative to say that a rumour is "widespread" or "common" in any case. Although our sources may *state* that it is, since this is necessarily going to be contentious, their statement should be *quoted* rather than left unquoted to show exactly *who* is saying it, and with a full ref to the source. That method makes it clear in the mind of the reader that a certain skepticism should be effected. Wjhonson (talk) 00:06, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Snopes has a pretty good reputation for accuracy, but it's still essentially a blog. Snopes' information can be used, but should always be attributed "According to Snopes.com..." <eleland/talkedits> 19:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Great power

Resolved

A very slow moving edit war has just started between myself and another editor Chanakyathegreat over the inclusion or exclusion of India as a current great power. It started here Talk:Great power#Encarta is wrong because Encarta states that India is an upcoming super power not a current one, he (?) stated many reasons why he believes that India is a current Global Power and how Encarta is wrong and/or outdated for stating otherwise. I tried to answer some of those statements but concluded stating that it doesn't matter what either one of us say because we aren't published or accredited experts in Geo-politics and all our conversations come down was WP:OR. I even gave him some academic papers that state that India though likely to be one sometime in the future is not one now & unless he could find some that say otherwise the page should stay the same. Now one of those papers predicted that in so many years India would most likely be a Great Power and by adding those years to the date it was published he used it as proof that India is indeed a current Great Power. I reverted the edits saying that while an accredited source is the best source you can find, using one that predicts the future to prove facts about the current world is not considered reliable (i.e. Predictions of the British Empire in 1913 had no relations to the reality of what actually happened). Once I did that I got threatened that he'd report me to an admin (The article is a reliable as you have admitted and making any changes will be a violation of Wikipedia rules and I will have to report you to the Administrator.) Which kinda bummed me out since up till that point I was enjoying our conversation. So I was hoping that I could get some other opinions involved in this since I think that no matter what I say at this point it will fall on deaf ears. Heck if you can find an accredited source that can prove his point please let us know! Thanks! -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 06:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

UKPhoenix79 you did the right thing by coming here. Content disputes over the reliability of a source belong on this page. Here is how I personally would approach the issue. Quote and cite both sources using footnotes to show exactly what each one is saying. I find that is the best method to solve contentious content-paraphrasing contests. I can assist you in how to do this if you're not sure. I'll also watch the article for a few days to see if you've been able to work it out to your mutual satisfaction. Have a great day. Wjhonson (talk) 00:11, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Well it looks like the other editor is willing to listen. Thanks to those that helped with this & replied here and the talk page. -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 06:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

What is “published”?

Resolved

This question is a further narrowing of a question/issue initially stirred under the subject header A question about bibliographical data and narrowed under the subject header University Issued Transcripts. I will tag those articles to reference this narrower discussion for sake of readers/administrators.

Wikipedia:Published is an article represented as “not a guideline” but as presenting a “definition of ‘published’ for wikipedians.” This article offers several examples deemed “published”. One example is stated as,

“A transcript or recording of a live event, including: plays, television programs, documentaries, court trials, speeches or lectures, demonstrations, panel discussions, or meetings, a song sheet;”

According to this stated example a transcript would be "published" if 1) it presents “a live event” and 2) it is a “documentary”. According to usage expressed in Oxford English Dictionary, a university transcript represents “a live event” because it “corresponds to actual facts”. According to usage expressed in the same source, a university transcript is a “documentary” because it is “of the nature of documents” and it is “factual”.

A recurring objection to the use of a university transcript as a reliable source is that a university transcript is “not published”. Hence this question deals with the essential issue: What is “published”?

Review and comment on this specific information and question is appreciated.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 17:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Marvin thank you for a long and excellent question. When we originally worked, or slaved over the definition of Published for Wikipedians, we found there was a lot of confusion over the issue. In general published only means "made available to the public". So for example, books are published, your rough draft is not. Photographs which you can buy in a store are published, your family album is not. YouTube Videos are published, but your home movies are not. And yes Marvin, University transcripts, provided any member of the public, perhaps even paying a nominal fee can view them, or even better view them freely by *going* to said University, are published. I.E. they are made available to the "public", the public at large, or even possibly at small (although this last phrase "at small" is contentious). What type of source they are of course, is a different question.Wjhonson (talk) 23:24, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Wjhonson:: I appreciate your response. Other than the cited Wikipedia:Published article, is this question given serious treatment anywhere else within Wikipedia? Previous editors/administrators have, essentially, asserted these transcripts are unpublished because ‘Transcripts are unpublished’. Opinions are fine, but to use an opinion to assert the same opinion is circular. When asked to demonstrate their opinion is valid in the face of challenge, suddenly responses end. I would like to examine more closely how Wikipedia treats this subject, if it does at all beyond what is already presented/cited --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 00:18, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

There is at least one university that will not release transcripts except at the request of the student whose records they are. See [15], which provides, "Student records are confidential records. Transcripts will be released only upon written request of the student." Evidently the transcripts of the University of Michigan at Dearborn are not published; the public has no right of access to them, even by paying a fee. EdJohnston (talk) 23:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

EdJohnston: It is not unusual for a university to refrain from issuing official transcripts without the student’s permission. I can comprehend why unreleased transcripts could be, arguably, treated as unpublished. A parallel in judicial archives would be the difference between sealed transcripts and unsealed transcripts. Sealed transcripts are not made available except for privileged communications whereas unsealed court transcripts are available to anyone who wants to bother to look then up for review. Even sealed transcripts are accessible if these surface and the possessor is not a court official (lawyer, judge, reporter, court employee in general, etc) and wants to share them. (I am not suggesting this particular publishing would be ethical or moral, but rather that it would not be illegal) Getting back to college transcripts, if a student has released the transcript without a request for confidentiality, or if the university makes the transcript accessible without express permission from a former student, then do you see any reason to assert such a transcript is unpublished? --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 00:18, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Excellent point Ed, and I agree. If records are generally held to be private, or effectively private (by making them almost inaccessible) they would not be considered published. Fine lines can be drawn and in fact it's been argued back-and-forth here for years exactly where the line gets drawn. It's best to deal on a case-by-case basis as your example points out. Have a great day. Wjhonson (talk) 00:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Wjhonson: The particular instance seeding this discussion was my use of a university transcript recorded in the years 1911 through 1913. The document is of a notable historical religious figure (though not what I would call famous) deceased for about twenty years. The institution makes this transcript available basically to anyone making the request. This is precisely how I got a copy. Getting this transcript was easier than retrieving the typical court transcript. Release of relatively old information, even of a personal nature, is not unusual. Today we have nearly unfettered access personal passport applications received by the US State Department up to year 1925. Like these applicatoins, in general, the older the college transcript the easier is the access in terms on information release. In the instance of my use of a college transcript, do you view the document as "unpublished" or "published"? --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 00:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's relevant to ask in this case for the document to become secondary so it can then be used for some purpose other than the most direct one. The transcript can be quoted from. Full stop. That's how we should *start* and see if we can go from there. Wjhonson (talk) 01:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Wjhonson: Okay. For sake of discussion let’s say transcript X records that in 1910 the University of Nowhere records that student Andy C. Wallace earned 2 credit hours for what it itemizes as Esperanto.

If writing an article about the University of Nowhere I write, “The University of Nowhere issued credits for Esperanto in 1910” then citing this transcript would be using it as primary source material. Since the University of Nowhere is the originator of the document and actually responsible for issuing the transcript, then citing this source to state information about the university would be a primary use.

If writing an article about Andy C. Wallace I write, “Andy C. Wallace earned 2 credit hours for Esperanto at the University of Nowhere in year 1910” then citing the transcript would be using it as a secondary source. This is because the subject is Andy C. Wallace and Andy C. Wallace was not the originator of the document or responsible for issuing the transcript. In this case citing the transcript would be utilizing a third party document to verify something about Andy C. Wallace.

Do you see this differently? --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 01:18, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

See below. There is zero difference in who you make the subject/object of any particular sentence with regard to whether it is a primary or a secondary source. In your example both are primary. See WP:PSTS for information about what a primary and secondary source is Slp1 (talk) 01:38, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: A college transcript is not the primary source you assert when it is used to verify educational achievement of a student. The transcript is removed from the primary source of the professor’s records that originally awarded grades and credits for coursework/academic achievement. If we were talking about a professor’s ledger of grade/credit awards then we would be talking about a primary source. Universities construct transcripts after reviewing these ledgers and achievements of record. There is also a vetting process where school administrators (and even the student) review the transcript for accuracy. The resulting document is the transcript.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 02:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

To take up Wjhonson's early point here, the issue becomes in part "what type of source they are". Primary, I would suggest, and to be avoided for any interpretational citation. I think there is a grave danger of original research conclusions being drawn in this matter. --Slp1 (talk) 00:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: As an administrative document referencing actions of a university to show something of the university itself I can understand why a college transcript would be considered as a primary source. But it seems to me whether a college transcript is considered a secondary source depends on why and how it is cited. If, for instance, it is cited to verify statements of particular credit hours earned for a particular student then it would serve effectively as a third party verification. In short, if transcript X is used to represent something by the issuing institution about the institution, then it would be used as a primary source. But if transcript X is used to representing something of a student as verified by the institution then the statement of the institution is used as a secondary source. Do you agree or disagree with this assessment, or have an alternate perspective? --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 00:53, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Slp1. Marvin (may I call you Marvin?), please keep in mind that this entire discussion originally stemmed from the following problematic sentence: "Frederick Franz’s credentials of record show very little if any formal training in biblical languages." As other editors rightly pointed out, whoever wrote that sentence was making an interpretation (read: original synthesis) of the primary materials by (1) implying that all credentials have been viewed when, in fact, as editors we'll never know that for sure (it's imprecise language), and (2) assuming that transcripts (and only transcripts) can be viewed as "credentials of record" when, again, the assumption is debatable (degrees, for example, can constitute "credentials of record"). Your rejoinder was that the transcripts simply served as "corroboration" of other published secondary sources, and then added that the secondary sources themselves were somehow "questionable." I didn't understand what you meant by that statement (was another editor challenging the secondary sources?), but regardless, if they were cross-referenced by another reliable secondary source (and I take it you had two sources), that should have sufficed. The bottom-line is that had the original problematic sentence not claimed to have been representative of something more than it was, I suspect you wouldn't have encountered such resistance from other editors. FWIW, J Readings (talk) 01:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

J Readings: Feel free to call me Marvin. The sentence you cite was not based on Franz’s transcript. The statement that ‘Franz had very little if any training in biblical languages’ was not based on the transcript, but I can understand why the original presenter of this issue felt that way. What should have occurred is the edit was improved to remove ambiguity and enhance the information accordingly.

Also, the original presenter was not questioning the use of the transcript, but rather he was questioning whether there was sufficient bibliographic data for the transcript. The original presenter only jumped on the “It’s not an appropriate source” bandwagon after reading hasty opinions to that end. It was the original mangled presentation on this issue that stirred frustrating responses, or at least that is what I chalk it up to.

I have no problem with a view that an unverified statement should be removed. But to categorically assert that a college transcript is unpublished seems to go beyond the pale. It is certainly unsound to state something as circular as ‘Transcripts are published because I say so.’ --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 01:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict but the point remains) Actually no, I do not agree with Marvin Shilmer. It is entirely the same whether you are trying to show something about the institution or about the student. The document is being used "to show something" about <fill in the blank>". Where is the verification? How do you know that this is the end of the studying that the guy did? Where is the editorial oversight about any conclusions you draw about his qualifications? Published or not this is a primary source and using it to try to prove anything is original research especially synthesis and not allowed here. You have mentioned another secondary source for your point: if that it is a reliable source, and no matter how difficult to access, I suggest that as your best option. --Slp1 (talk) 01:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: There is a relevant and dramatic distinction between using a transcript to speak to the issuing institution compared with using a transcript to speak to a student of that institution. The distinction lies in who is responsible for recording and issuing the transcript.

A student is not responsible for recording and issuing his or her own educational achievements. From the perspective of, and for the benefit of the student college transcripts serve as a third party declaration of educational achievement. Hence, to use a transcript to state something of the student the transcript serves as a secondary source, whereas to use the transcript to state something of the issuing institution it serves as a primary source.

A similar thing occurs with, for example, peer reviewed journal articles depending on whether an article is used to express something about the journal or the article’s author compared to using the article to express something stated by the article about a third interest (whether of a person, place or thing). --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 01:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

It appears to me that you still aren't clear on the different between primary and secondary sources from Wikipedia's perspective. Student transcripts are still primary sources whoever they are talking about and whoever is the subject of the sentence --Slp1 (talk) 02:16, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you think a college transcript is not one step removed from its achievement of record, and this is why you think it a primary source. College transcripts are at least one step removed from the primary documents showing earned grades and credits. The primary documents are produced by the students professor. The university’s administration produces transcripts through a fairly rigorous vetting protocol where the information is checked for accuracy. Also, the student gets to take a look at the transcript as part of this protocol. Hence the official college transcript is removed from the primary source material. If you think college transcripts are primary for some other reason, please specify this. The link you provided above explains all this nicely. The university does not award credits and grades; the student’s professor does this. The university is an institution that provides a methodical and vetted process to verify this educational award. The university issues a transcript, not grades and credits. Hence the transcript is a vetted secondary soure rather than a non-vetted primary source.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 02:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I cannot agree with your argument. A university transcript is an historical document equivalent to the "diaries, census results, video or transcripts of surveillance, public hearings, trials, or interviews" mentioned in WP:PSTS. Trials, public hearings, census results etc all have checks for accuracy as you are claiming from the university, but that does not make them secondary sources.--Slp1 (talk) 02:44, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: Being a historical document does not make a document a primary or secondary source. Also, disagreement is not refutation.

Diaries are primary because these are not removed from the person who created them. Census records are primary because, again, these are not removed from the source. Transcripts are at least one step removed from the information’s source. This is already expressed above, and you have not even taken time to respond to it. Not only this, college transcripts are rigorously vetted for accuracy. In the case of court transcripts, these are secondary sources based on how they are used. If you feel differently then please express the precise reason or reasons for this other than repeating you opinion. I know your opinion. I want to know precisely why this is your opinion. I am not interested in agreement or disagreement. I am intrested in specific reasons for agreement or disagreement.

By the way, court transcripts and census reports have nowhere near the vetting brought to bear on college transcripts. -- Marvin Shilmer (talk) 02:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, while we're on the topic of primary versus secondary sources, I checked Lexis-Nexis for articles (secondary sources) relating to Frederick Franz's credentials in biblical languages. There were over twenty articles on Franz, but I did come across a couple of articles by journalists that might be of interest. The first was an obituary of Franz by Canada Newswire (23 December 1992) and the second was by PR Newswire (23 December 1992). Both articles state "A noted Bible scholar and public speaker, Mr. Franz was versed in the Biblical languages of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek." I would have thought that these two cross-referenced articles could have been added to the article with little problem. J Readings (talk) 01:44, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

J Readings: If either Franz or the organization he devoted his life to is responsible for wording in those obituaries then they have little value as a resource other than either his own view of himself (which it is probably not) or the view his organization of choice wants to project of him as its former president. Fluff is everywhere. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 01:57, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. It wouldn't have occurred to me that these obituaries were propaganda pieces, but I suppose it could be true. What objective criteria would one use to identify newswires as being neutral and non-partisan? J Readings (talk) 02:11, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

J Readings: The short answer is: research, research and more research. Some newswire articles are more likely than others to be propaganda. Obituaries are notoriously full of fluff. Hence these should always be used with care. Important pieces of information include who authored a given article and that author’s history on or with the subject (member, ex-member, conservative, liberal, name your poison). There is also the question of how testable the information is. Vague assertions are notoriously unreliable, for example, whereas precise assertions tend to be more reliable. But, at the end of the day, a presentation of information is as reliable as is the depth of research and aources that accompanies it, along with whatever reputation those sources have.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 02:20, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent) While taking your points, may I ask how these opinions fit into Wikipedia's core policies of no original research and verifiability? In the latter it states specifically that "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." Slp1 (talk) 02:27, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Firstly I agree with the idea that no matter what the article is about, the source is still a primary source. Secondly we should not make a presumption of POV about a source that then leads to a novel idea. To say the obit should be discarded, because we want to show that he was not versed in x would be original research in my opinion. Thirdly, the proper approach, in my humble opinion, is to allow the article to include both direct and indirect quotes showing the details, allowing the *reader* the intelligence, or crediting them with the intelligence to understand that some sources might be biased a bit. If this person is that well-known it would appear that a full standard biographies would have them listed and they could be consulted to see how they phrase particular issues. It would help in these discussions to give details of the specific real-world situation we're addressing here, without hypotheticals. Wjhonson (talk) 02:34, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Wjhonson: Sources should not be 1) accepted, 2) discounted or 3) rejected base on a bias. Sources should be evaluated and assigned weight based on veracity of the source itself, which can stand heated test of challange. Editors of encyclopedic content have a duty to express reasons for source weight assignment in the face of challenge. The extent this weight is tested by other editors and the resulting wherewithal of the source is the veracity of the material.

Regarding college transcripts and primary and secondary sources, in precise terms can you state why you believe these transcripts are primary sources and cannot be secondary sources? --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 02:46, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: Use of a transcript would amount t original research just like any other vetted source would serve as original research. I fail to see what needs explaining about this. If you use any material to draw conclusions aside from what those sources express, then you are presenting original research. This is straightforward and relatively easy to evaluate. In terms of original research, either what is stated is a conclusion of the referenced material, or what is stated is a conclusion built on the referenced material. If it is constructed from the referenced material but not stated by the referenced material, then it is original research.

As for verifiability, vetted secondary sources are typically accepted by Wikipedia as sources useful for purposes of verification. College transcripts are vetted secondary documents.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 02:37, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Mr Shilmer, with all due respect, I believe that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of WP policies here. Several people have tried to explain the issues. Several people have disagreed with your interpretations. Continually asking for further explanations is unlikely to be fruitful I fear. Slp1 (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: Fine. Now show me. I am not looking for agreement or disagreement. I am looking for precise reasons for agreement or disagreement.

You keep repeating the same opinion but without expressing precise reasons for this opinion. An opinion is only as testable as it is precise. If you want your opinion to have merit you need to allow it to be tested by expressing precise reasons for it. So, please express precisely why you opine that a college transcript cannot be used as a secondary source. I will respond, as always, with precision. I want my responses tested. I am not interested in being correct. I am interested in correctness. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 03:01, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I have given multiple reasons why this is a primary source, pointing out WP policies. You apparently do not agree with them, and similarly keep repeating your contention that it is a secondary source, as is your prerogative. Like I said, further discussion appears unlikely to be fruitful at this point. --Slp1 (talk) 03:11, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: I am disappointed in this response from you. The difference between your presentations and mine on this issue is that you state an opinion buttressed by saying Wikipedia policy agrees with it, whereas I took what Wikipedia policy actually states and demonstrated how and why my position meets those precise criteria. It is one thing to state Wikipedia policy agrees with a position. It is something else altogether to demonstrate how and why an opinion agrees with a Wikipedia policy. I invite you to reconsider and offer your precise reasons for why a college transcript cannot be used as a secondary source. Basic reasons for my position are: these transcripts 1) are at least one step removed from the subject addressed, 2) they are prepared by a third party (the university does not issue the grades and credits, the university issues transcripts) and 3) transcripts are rigorously vetted. Now, again, I invite you to express your precise reasons for your opinion.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 03:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the above quote "use of a transcript would amount to original research". In my humble opinion, use a of source is research, but it is not original, it's more mechanical. You are not creating new facts in quoting any source, primary or secondary. You are regurgitating existing facts. Wjhonson (talk) 02:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Wjhonson: Yes. When we share established information verified by sources then it is patently absurd to characterize this as original research.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 03:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I however agree with Martin when he says "if you use any material to draw conclusions..." (etc.) which is why we should not do that. We can state, paraphrase, join, edit and otherwise our sources, but if we draw original conclusions we whatever sources we are using than we are presenting original research. Trivial conclusions, holding community consensus, like "this picture shows a cat" are bland and acceptable. Contentious conclusions like "this picture obviously shows a ferocious man-eating cat" are not allowed. Wjhonson (talk) 03:16, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I would totally agree that primary sources can be used judiciously in just the manner you have been describing, Wjhonson. What has been in dispute above has been whether the transcript is a primary or a secondary source, though it is unclear to me why this is so important. As Wjhonson (I believe) suggested early, it would be very helpful to know exactly what sentence the transcript is supposed to be supporting.Slp1 (talk) 03:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: Please consult the example given above of transcript X issued in 1910 by the University of Nowhere for student Andy C. Wallace. This example provides the essentials without getting bogged down in the weeds. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 03:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I have already read and responded to your example above. Now perhaps you can respond to my question about what sentence you would like the transcript to source.--Slp1 (talk) 03:43, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: I fail to see where you addressed the example with more than a dismissive opinion. You offered not one iota of substance. You offered just opinion. You asked that I consult WP:PSTS. I did and responded in precise terms. In reply, you offered nothing more than a restating of the same opinion.

Now you ask “what sentence you would like the transcript to source.” Of the example of transcript X issued in 1910 by the University of Nowhere for student Andy C. Wallace that he earned 2 credit hours for Esperanto, as I already expressed, as a secondary source of verification I would cite it for a sentence stating, “Andy C. Wallace earned 2 credit hours for Esperanto at the University of Nowhere in year 1910”. It is frustrating that this needs repeating.

Now I ask of you that you express in precise terms why you believe a college transcript cannot be used as a secondary source. Please respond. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 04:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent) This thread is very long, it's hard now to grasp the whole thing. You wish to consider the transcript as a secondary source, could you explain what advantage this would convey to you? I.E. *Why* do you care if it's considered primary or secondary now? Evidently you see some advantage is making it be called secondary. If so, what is it? Thanks. Wjhonson (talk) 04:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Wjhonson: I have not continued this discussion for a single edit/use. Hence stating why in this instance there is an importance to attach to a single use/edit is immaterial. The academic issue is more important, and is at the center of my question. This is one reason for using an example above rather than the actual incident that seeded this discussion. If we get into the weeds of an actual edit issue then we get bogged down and taken away from the academic concern.

The academic issue is first: Under Wikipedia standards (an intentional usage) can a college transcript be considered “published”, or as has been opined previously, is it categorically an “unpublished” source? I believe I have your answer to this question.

Secondly, the academic issue is: Assuming it achieves “published” status, when if ever can a college transcript be considered a secondary source?

On this second academic issue, Slp1 advised that I consult WP:PSTS to see why college transcripts do not meet Wikipedia criteria as a secondary source. I have read this Wikipedia policy many times, but I read it again at Slp1’s request, and I responded in precise terms. Based on specifics in that standard, I see no reason why a college transcript should not be considered a secondary source based on appropriate usage, and I see every reason it should be considered a secondary source based on appropriate usage. I spelled this out above to the point of numbering the items.

If you have any additional observations I would appreciate hearing them, but I request that you be specific enough that your views can be tested for veracity. It has been an extremely frustrating experience trying to get administrators to avoid general statements of opinion and offer sufficiently precise assertions for testing veracity. So I am not misunderstood, again I am not interested in being correct. I am interested in correctness. As I challenge opinions offered to me, I invite my statements to likewise meet with the heat of challenge.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 05:06, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

There is some language in WP:PSTS that wants secondary sources to be 'interpretive.' It is not clear how a transcript can be viewed as interpretive. Secondary sources may draw on primary sources and other secondary sources to create a general overview; or to make analytic or synthetic claims. Where are the 'analytic or synthetic claims' in a transcript? A transcript seems even more primary than a court decision, where if you're lucky, the judge will give some reasoning and explanation. A written evaluation of a student's work, or a prize citation might be considered interpretive, but neither of these was said to occur in the transcript that led to this entire discussion. EdJohnston (talk) 05:01, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

EdJohnston: It is false to express that “some language in WP:PSTS wants secondary sources to be interpretive” as though this substantiates a conclusion that college transcripts should not be viewed as a secondary source. Offering an interpretation (an analysis or synthetic claim) is one of two alternate achievements indicated for secondary sources under Wikipedia policy. The other achievement is stated as “to create a general overview”. Well, this is precisely what a college transcript expresses of a student's academic achievement. My question for you is why do you wear out one of the achievements expressed of secondary sources and ignore the other stated achievement of “general overview” This omission is surely intentional; so why? --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 05:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Shilmer, you came here, I presume, to get the opinions of non-involved editors. Many editors have responded in the various threads you have started or participated in. It appears that you disagree with the many of opinions expressed, but accusing comments such as "This omission is surely intentional; so why?", are singularly unhelpful.Slp1 (talk) 13:16, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: I did not bring this discussion here. Another editor did that, one by the name of Vassilis78. But I will see the end of this issue. I appreciate the thoughtful replies I have read. What I am tired of reading is general opinions backed up with the same opinions. What I am tire of is the near refusal of other participants to offer their opinions with enough precision to make them testable. I am not interested in personal opinions. I am interested in what can be proved as Wikipedia policy. If responders only want to express personal opinion, then I wonder why they engaged the discussion at all.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 18:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia and it operates by consensus: people's personal opinions about what WP policy means/implies in this particular situation are pretty much all you are going to get. It is the aggregate of those opinions and comments that becomes the deciding factor when reaching a decision, for there is no single final arbiter of this kind of content dispute. Slp1 (talk) 19:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: Wikipedia is not a world that spins outside the known forms of valid logical construction and deconstruction. Opinions are no more authoritative than how well they are substantiated. 100 editors can offer the same opinion and that opinion has no more merit than mob rule compared to 1 opinion that is substantiated by means of proven premises and valid argument form. If you instruct at a university as you claim then you should already know this, and participate accordingly. It is a waste of everyone’s time to repeat over and over again the same general opinion without demonstrating the veracity of that opinion (conclusion) by means of offering valid premises formed into a valid argument form. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 19:34, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

What is primary (continuing from above)

Resolved

You said : "College transcripts are at least one step removed from the primary documents showing earned grades and credits. The primary documents are produced by the students professor. The university’s administration produces transcripts through a fairly rigorous vetting protocol where the information is checked for accuracy. Also, the student gets to take a look at the transcript as part of this protocol. Hence the official college transcript is removed from the primary source material. ... The university is an institution that provides a methodical and vetted process to verify this educational award. The university issues a transcript, not grades and credits. Hence the transcript is a vetted secondary soure rather than a non-vetted primary source"

It would appear than you believe: a document produced first by person Q and then transcripted and vetted by person R (checking for accuracy) and thus creating a "remove" in the process can make a primary document into a secondary document. Would that be an accurate interpretation of your belief? Wjhonson (talk) 06:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Wjhonson: No. What you express is far simpler than the issuing of a transcript. First, it is not as simple as ‘transcribing a document produced by person Q and vetted by person R’. Universities have individual colleges/departments within their system. A professor determines grades, credits earned and other achievements, which in turn are provided to his or her department for review. This reviewed information is then provided to the University administration where it is methodically reviewed to see if it complies with mandated review processes and vetting protocol unique the institution. (Note: in larger institutions there is at least one additional set review and analysis from a professor to the department to the college to the university system)

The way this information is used and vetted is similar to how diverse information is brought together and given an overview in an article written for a peer reviewed journal. A university gets information from diverse sources within (and from outside) its system and then issues a transcript. In effect, a transcript is a vetted article presenting an overview of a student’s academic achievement. If a student had transferred to that school from another institution the production of the transcript would also include a thorough review of credits earned from other institutions and what form of accreditation held by those institutions. There is some degree of this for all students because all students attended secondary schools before attending university. This information, too, is consulted as part of issuing a transcript. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 19:13, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Without wanting to distract from the question, you have several times made the claim that transcripts are "rigorously vetted for accuracy" (and rather surprisingly suggested that court transcripts and census reports are not). As one who teaches at a university, I cannot confirm your premise. There is no vetting after I enter my students' grades and the numbers appearing on the student's transcript.--Slp1 (talk) 12:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: Whether you realize it or not, the accreditation held by a university depends on, among other things, an academic integrity that includes methods and means of establishing the veracity of grades and other achievements issued by a professor to a student. This is part of a university’s administration. If this integrity lacks or fails to be maintained according to the accreting authority, then the university loses its accreditation. If you are professor in a university system, then apparently you are unaware that you cannot issue grades willy-nilly without, eventually, getting caught and disciplined. Vetting protocols required by accrediting authorities are there to protect the integrity of the larger educational establishment. These authorities do not take it lightly to learn an institution has failed to comply with appropriate reviews and methods to ensure an accurate record of educational achievement has been produced.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 19:23, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Marvin this is really quite simple. Transcripts of events like plays are qualitatively different to academic results transcripts. Put very simply academic transcripts are not available to everyone. Particularly in Europe it is illegal for an institution to give a third party somebody else's transcripts (due to confidentiality, data protection and all associated laws) - this is a document held by an institution rather than published by them. Transcripts of lectures, play texts, printed versions of speeches etc, are different - primarily as they are not private (as long as they have been released by the author). To address the point above, accrediting authorities do set protocols and parameters but they do not "peer review" results - they test by sampling. They sample the highest, lowest and mean grades randomly - this is grade vetting procedure. Peer review is a different animal.

The points being made to you Marvin are that it would be original research to use what you are talking about--Cailil ^talk 20:23, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Cailil: If you would read what I have written, you would see that I am not addressing university transcripts that are unavailable. I am addressing those that are available.

There are vetting protocols for production of university transcripts. Among other things, this consists of peers reviewing the accuracy of recording by fellows. This is peer review in its most basic form.

You opine that to use a person’s university transcript would be original research, yet you offer not one iota of reason why this is the case, despite contrary views expressed above by other editors, and these with actual reasons associated with the opinion given! Please explain how would be original research to use a transcript to do no more than state credits earned for course work specified on the transcript. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 20:37, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict and responding to Marvin) Indeed, just as the accreditation and/or reputation of census takers (census results), court reporters and the wider justice system (public hearings, trials, or interviews), scientists and researchers (written or recorded notes of laboratory and field research, experiments or observations, published experimental results by the person(s) actually involved in the research), and administrators (administrative documents) are at risk should the data/document/transcript/results/whatever turn out to be inaccurate/fraudulent/badly done. I do not see that checking and vetting you are claiming for universities/college is any different from these unquestionably primary sources.

I also note that the notes and references used to support the WP:PSTS section, here here, here, here, and here state that primary sources are written close in time to the event (excepting memoirs) and include official records, and that a secondary source analyzes and interprets primary sources. Neither PSTS nor the references given in that article actually mention college transcripts per se, though based on similarities and differences to the examples given, all strongly suggest that school transcripts are a primary source. So specifically does Hoover Presidential Library (using the term school records), the Library of Congress (using the term school report cards), the University of Washington, this Tennessee education document, and this definition. Can you find any counter examples? Slp1 (talk) 20:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I find myself losing patience with this discussion. Some of us are racking our brains to come up with responses to Marvin Shilmer's line of questions, but we have now wandered far afield from the original topic, which is an article where a person's transcript (showing courses in classical Greek) was being used to discredit his abilities as a translator of Biblical Greek. (The paragraph we looked into originally was a prime example of original research, and the issue of this transcript was far from being the worst problem). Wikipedia is not a soapbox, and I no longer see how this conversation is relevant to the improvement of articles, or the revision of policies. EdJohnston (talk) 20:56, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

EdJohnston: What a lopsided presentation you make! I am not the one who seeded this issue. The one who did that is responsible for leaving a misimpression that the source information was used in way to be original research.

The discussion I have pursued relates to academic consistency of source usage. If you find this a frustrating endeavor then why do you participate? If you find this a fulfilling endeavor then why not offer response to precise questions asked with a corresponding level of precision?--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 21:20, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: The selectivity of information in your presentation is astounding.

In your reply you cite “recorded notes of laboratory and field research, experiments or observations, published experimental results by the person(s) actually involved in the research”. When the results of experiments are published in a peer reviewed journal article published to give a general overview of diverse but related experiments and results of those experiments, are you of the opinion such an article is a primary or secondary source if it is used to verify that a particular experiment was performed and its result? When you respond to this with reasons for your answer, then we have something to discuss. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 20:49, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I am afraid I don't follow you. I cited the sentence directly from the NOR policy, from the primary sources section. All the passages in italics are direct quotes from there. But to be clear scientific data, (the actual results of the experiment whether published or unpublished) are a primary, unanalyzed source. The analysis and interpretation of those results in a peer reviewed journal is the secondary source part. I dealt with this exact issue on an article recently: an editor took an article from a peer-reviewed journal and used the experimental data contained in the article to make a claim that the researchers had not. He use the results as a primary source to do his own original research.--Slp1 (talk) 21:05, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: I am tired of you skirting the questions asked. I do not know if you are doing this intentionally or unintentionally. But it is frustrating nevertheless.

Please note that I did not inquire about an article that provided “analysis and interpretation” of experiments of record. Rather, I inquired about an article “published to give a general overview of diverse but related experiments and results of those experiments”.

Now, if you please, would you respond to the actual question asked rather than to a question you would, apparently, prefer was asked! --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 21:13, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I am in agreement with EdJohnston: this conversation is going nowhere. The entire purpose is unclear, questions that would clarify have gone unanswered, the discussion is unproductive and verges on the uncivil. I tried to leave it earlier but stupidly got sucked back in! Enough.--Slp1 (talk) 21:29, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: It is telling when a person extracts themselves from a discussion when their opinion is pressed by challenge. You have done this repeatedly in this discussion. How valuable is an opinion that a person is unwilling or unable to defend under the heat of challenge?

Here is the precise purpose of my question to you: To evaluate whether a university transcript can ever serve as a secondary source.

You have not asked me a single question that has been left unanswered, except for your last rambling request, and that was for reasons stated and left without objection.

Here is a relevant quotation from WP:PSTS: “Secondary sources are accounts at least one step removed from an event. Secondary sources may draw on primary sources and other secondary sources to create a general overview; OR to make analytic or synthetic claims. Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.” (Emphasis added)

Now, if this does not communicate the relevancy of the question I presented you with just above, then you are not equipped to offer an answer to it. If you have something substantive to present, I am all ears. This is why I am here and asking the question(s)--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 22:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

For your convenience, the question asked is: When the results of experiments are published in a peer reviewed journal article published to give a general overview of diverse but related experiments and results of those experiments, are you of the opinion such an article is a primary or secondary source if it is used to verify that a particular experiment was performed and its result? --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 22:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent) Marvin: if you'll permit me to make an observation, it seems fairly obvious to me (and perhaps most others) that you are engaging us in a political campaign to have the original research policy (generally) and the Reliable Source guidelines (specifically) revised so that university transcripts clearly constitute acceptable secondary sources that can be used when editing this encyclopedia. Otherwise, your argumentative style, line of questioning, and refusal to accept most (any?) of the replies to you makes no sense. For what it's worth, personally, I don't have a problem with editors wanting to build a consensus for policy and guideline revisions. The problem is that you've chosen the wrong venue. The purpose of this noticeboard is for "Editors who want to post questions here about whether given sources are reliable, and editors interested in sourcing issues will answer." A quick read of the archives here will reinforce that point. A specific article is identified and a specific source is then presented within a specific context that cites guidelines. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but that's the pattern. The relevant editors that you should address can be found at the Reliable Sources talk page and the original research talk page. That's where academic issues of general policy and guideline concern are formulated and revised. Good luck and best wishes, J Readings (talk) 23:42, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

J Readings: My response to your observation of what is obvious to you is that your observation is completely wrong.

I am not engaging a campaign (political or otherwise) to have any policy changed or modified. I am asking a question about current policy. Though lots of opinions have flowed, when these opinions are challenged the source extracts from the conversation. Such behavior is rude and unproductive. We are here to edit encyclopedic content, not coddle personalities. Your response here leads me to believe that though you have taken time to share your disparaging opinion of my intent you have not taken time to make that opinion fit what I have actually written here. Which makes me wonder, why are you writing what you write?

Diverting back to the topic at hand, I have read current Wikipedia policy for what constitutes a secondary source. I have also read each and every opinion shared in this discussion. Repeatedly what occurs when I challenge an opinion based on black-letter Wikipedia policy I am met with silence if not refusal. I appreciate that editors have opinions. But opinions are worthless if they cannot withstand the heat of challenge.

I am not here for luck or well-wishes. I am not here to garner support. I am not here to make editors like me. I am not here to be told I am correct or incorrect. I am here to get learned opinions, and learned opinions do not take challenging questions as insult, trivial or not worth the time. If you have something substantive to add to this discussion I would appreciate the opportunity to read it.--Marvin Shilmer (talk) 00:07, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

You know what, Marvin? You're absolutely right. I was wrong to take the time to make (what I thought was) a constructive suggestion. I apologize. "Disparaging opinion of [your] intent"? OK. That wasn't my intention, either, but I'm not going to engage you further about mistaken intentions. If you say that you're not interested in changing the policy to clearly include "academic transcripts" or "university transcripts" or "school transcripts" among the list of acceptable sources on Wikipedia, I believe you. Again, I'm sorry that I misinterpreted these lengthy discussions. And, if others want to engage with you in a Socratic dialogue on whether these transcripts (generally speaking) can/should be interpreted as reliable sources, that's also a good thing for whoever is interested. Best regards, J Readings (talk) 01:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

J Readings: Please do not misunderstand my frankness. I am just so tired of the fluffy, preferential and unread responses given to a rather straightforward issue. I apologize if my language is stronger than necessary.

The straightforwardness of this is basic, to me. Wikipedia policy depicts what it accepts as secondary source material; hence if a source fits that depiction then, viola, it is useful as a secondary source.

Responders who have bothered to even reference Wikipedia policy have worn out one depiction of what constitutes a secondary source at the expense of answering for an alternate depiction of what constitutes a secondary source under Wikipedia policy. When this mis-treatment of the subject is pointed out the responders have, apparently, taken umbrage that their opinions were challenged, and they extracted themselves from the discussion. This is not only rude, is it extremely poor academic response, and it is insulting! This is, I must admit, a response that is repugnant to me and tends to get under my skin as an academic.

To me, if the shoe fits we wear it. That is, if a given university transcript is accessible and it fits what current Wikipedia policy depicts for a secondary source then we should accept that transcript as a secondary source, appropriately used of course. I have offered precise reasons for why a given university transcript meets Wikipedia policy as a secondary source, but the precision is avoided by responders. It is frustrating. I have no idea why responders waste their time keyboarding a reply in the first place if they are not going to offer a considered and thorough response, which hopefully is an answer. --Marvin Shilmer (talk) 01:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

What is primary part 2 (continued)

Resolved

When a section becomes very long, as the above, it's hard to edit for some people. So I'd recommend after 15 to 20 posts we start a new section. So I have. Please respond further from this point forward.

Regarding some of the above, we need to be clear that when an author publishes their experimental data, research, observations, biography, or whatever, the entire publication is a primary source. Vetting the results does not change that it's a primary source, and publishing the results does not change it either. It's primary on their note cards, primary in their rough draft, primary while being vetted/peer-reviewed, and primary in it's final published form. The primary form includes the entire book, film, article, audiotape, cd, series, including all the authors comments, analysis, interpretation, and the copyediting of others including their corrections.

Secondary sources are formed when one or more primary sources (see my paragraph above) are used as a backdrop from which to create a brand new artistic expression. Vetting, transcribing (or other purely mechanical form-alteration), collecting, reviewing, copyediting, are not relevant to the type of source. The acts of editing in all their forms, re-forming in all its forms, and fixing in media in all its forms, do not change the type of source. These are considered either purely mechanical functions, or purely editorial functions. They are not relevant to the type of artistic expression the work contains.

Therefore, it is my own humble conclusion after slogging through the reams of arguments above, that a college transcript is merely the mechanically reproduced, edited, vetted, inputted, published form of the original underlying report-mark notes. This is merely the final published form of a process that runs through several "rough drafts" if you will. A college transcript does not convey a new *type* of artistic expression, a new sort of work, a new previously unexpected or unknown situation. It's merely the end-result of a known process that was already known to end in this particular final product, while the intermediate products become irrelevant to analyze.Wjhonson (talk) 08:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

This purely theoretical conversation made me create a rough-draft of the difference between a primary and a secondary source here. I'd appreciate comments left on that article's Talk page, in case anyone has anything to add to my brief overview. I might consider writing an essay on the topic. Wjhonson (talk) 09:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Wjhonson: I very much appreciate this well considered response. One thing I see missing from your analysis relates to a secondary source drawing from multiple primary or secondary sources to provide a general overview. What is your view of how this speaks to the primary or secondary disposition of a university transcript?

I ask the question because though a university transcript is of an information genre of academic achievement, it is false to suggest it is not distinguished as a source that draws from multiple primary sources to provide a overview, and this profile also fits Wikipedia’s policy statement of secondary sources.

Transcripts are a work unto themselves whereby diverse academic achievements from a variety of sources (professors, colleges within the university’s system, etc.) are drawn together by an institution and issued under the system’s reputation. Achievements of record from any one of the sources within the system are primary sources in their own right. So when these primary sources are drawn together for the larger overview of a person’s academic achievement, why would this not be a secondary source on this basis? When answering this question please keep in mind that individual professors and colleges within a university system exercise a high degree of autonomy.-Marvin Shilmer (talk) 18:53, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Marvin, thank you for your response. On my whiteboard (not quote an essay yet)[ here, I have addressed the question of university transcripts with some reasoning. I would encourage you to post to the Talk page for that article. Have a great day. Wjhonson (talk) 01:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources on Theistic rationalism

Please check the unreliable sources used on Theistic rationalism. Specifically:

1. [16] This source acknowledges "Deist" is the more common term and that "Theistic rationalism" is speculatory.

Similarly, while Franklin and Jefferson are regularly listed as deists, they did not believe in the fundamental tenets of deism. The key founders shared a common belief which might be called theistic rationalism.

2. A theology textbook written in the 1950's, republished in the 70's. Despite its use, it isn't accurate because it contains the following speculatory claim:

During the course of history there have appeared three types of rationalism: atheistic, pantheistic, and theistic. Atheistic rationalism appeared first in the early Greek philosophers: Thales, Anaximander, Anaximenes, Empedocles, Heraclitus, Leucippus, and Democritus." Pantheistic rationalism is represented in Anaxagoras and the Stoics, and theistic rationalism ... (can't get anymore of the text than that)

3. A biography of George W. Bush (political biographies are frequently bad) which again acknowledges that the term "theistic rationalism" is speculatory.

Perhaps a better for label for what Washington and other like-minded founders believed is theistic rationalism.

4. [17] A political column on an advocacy website. No need to say anything more about this one.

☯ Zenwhat (talk) 07:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The question of the *meaning* of the underlying content is not relevant to whether it's a reliable source. If your issue is with the meaning, you should take that to the talk page of the article to discuss it with other editors there for consensus. Wjhonson (talk) 09:34, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I rethought this and possibly what you mean is that the sources themselves speculate in their own text and therefore, in your opinion aren't reliable sources. Our prohibitions here on-Wiki against speculation do not apply *to* our sources, they only apply to us ourselves. We, as editors, cannot include our own personal speculation. Our sources can speculate however. We quote them. We don't add our own.Wjhonson (talk) 09:56, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Wjhonson, WP:NOR does not apply just to users putting forth their own original research, but also users who put forth the original research of others. ☯ Zenwhat (talk) 19:27, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

No, it doesn't, and nowhere in that policy does it say anything of the sort. Please read the page. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 20:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

"The inclusion of a view that is held only by a tiny minority may constitute original research." ☯ Zenwhat (talk) 00:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Inapplicable. You have not demonstrated an opposing majority. This isn't like global warming, where there is a side. This is a concept, one which you have not provided any evidence of being disputed. You're just grasping at straws to undermine auburnpilot's work. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 01:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the Penguin above. Sources which do original research (including their analysis) would be considered primary, and sources which using one or more primary sources (in a non-mechanical and non-trivial way) comment, analyze, or interpret substantially enough to be a new artistic expression, would be secondary. However the prohibition on original research only applies to ourselves as editors, not to our sources. The keyword in your above quote is "may". Further discussion on the particular issues, should be taken to the Talk page of the particular article for consensus re that source. Have a great day. Wjhonson (talk) 08:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Verifiability: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material."

Asking me to prove something isn't mainstream through finding evidence -- when fringe theories aren't likely to even be discussed by reliable sources if they're fringe -- is an appeal to negative proof. Furthermore, 3 of the 4 sources above acknowledge that they are speculatory. The personal opinions of 3 people + a horrible 1950's theology textbook != reliable.

Sources which do original research are primary, but they should be treated as such. The existence of particular primary sources cannot be used to push fringe views. Thus, the article should read, "According to Gregg Frazer, Clarence Thiessen, and Gary Smith, there is Theistic rationalism, which is apart from Deism."

Anything beyond that hasn't been established.

The fourth source, in particular, is a political column. Political columns are not reliable sources, because they are essays on opinion.

I mean, if we're going to consider Thiesssen a reliable source, would you guys suggest we should have an article on Atheistic rationalism? Furthermore, AuburnPilot hasn't demonstrated that he's actually read the text. I've asked him to complete Thiessen's sentence or at least summarize it. If he has the text or read it in the library, this should not be an unreasonable request. ☯ Zenwhat (talk) 23:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

You're wrong, accept it. You're wasting time by trying to misinterpret the policies. You have proven no alternate view, so it is not fringe, nor is it a theory. It is not original research because they are not Wikipedia editors. They are experts. Your attempt to discredit the "political column" is just as foolish because it was written by the guy who wrote the book, something a single look should have told you. It is not unreliable, it is an alternate source to reinforce the previous one. Lastly, as to your attacks on AuburnPilot's book research, try going to the library and doing it yourself. Even if you don't have a car, bus fare won't kill you. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 23:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

It isn't possible for the general contributors here to know the intimate details of a particular author to determine that authors specific reliability on a particular topic. So whether Thiesssen is a reliable source is too dependent on details about this author which a general reader would not know. And which we, as policy and guideline interpreters do not know. The specific issue of this specific author's reliability, should instead go to an article about that specific author, or an article where they appear prominently, showing sources which discredit that author. So for example, there are many quotes which one could find that might discredit say Ann Coulter as being neutral. If a consensus can be gained that a particular author or work is unreliable, then it would be appropriate to discount it's weight.Wjhonson (talk) 01:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Physicians for Human Rights report

Is this report [18] Leave No Marks: Enhanced Interrogation Techniques and the Risk of Criminality by Physicians for Human Rights and Human Rights First a Reliable source for information on waterboarding. Here is an example of the sourcing this report uses for water boarding.

Dorte Reff Olsen et al., Prevalent pain and pain level among torture survivors, 53 Danish Med Bull. 210-14 (2006), For details on the study,see note 92.

147 C. Bouwer & D. J. Stein, Association of panic disorder with a historyof traumatic suffocation, 154 Am. J. Psychiatry 1566 (1997), Recent research suggests that panic disorder results from a false suffocation alarm. Bouwer and Stein found that there was a significantly higher incidence of traumatic suffocation experiences (e.g., near-drowning and near-choking) in panic disorder patients (N = 176) than in psychiatric controls (N = 60), and that panic disorder patients with a history of traumatic suffocation were significantly more likely to have predominantly respiratory symptoms than those without such a history. In the majority of patients who had experienced traumatic suffocation this had been during accidental near drowning (N = 25). However, a smaller number of patients had experienced traumatic suffocation during deliberate torture (N = 8) or during rape (N = 1). In a case reported by the authors a 31 year old man with panic attacks characterized by predominantly respiratory symptoms reported that he had been tortured at the age of 18. A wet bag had been placed over his head repeatedly, leading to choking feelings, hyperventilation, and panic. At about age 20 the patient began to experience spontaneous panic attacks.

148 C. Bouwer & D. J. Stein, Panic disorder following torture by suffocationis associated with predominantly respiratory symptoms, 29 Psychological Med. 233 (1999), The authors examined whether a near-suffocation experienced in certain kinds of torture is associated with the development of predominantly respiratory panic attacks. A sample of 14 South African patients who had experienced torture, were questioned about symptoms of panic disorder, posttraumatic stress disorder and depression. Patients with a history of torture by suffocation (N=8) were more likely than other patients to complain of predominantly respiratory symptoms during panic attacks (N=6). These patients also demonstrated higher levels of depressive symptoms. The authors noted that torture by suffocation is possibly associated with a specific symptomatic profile.

149 H. P. Kapfhammer et al., Posttraumatic stress disorder and healthrelated quality of life in long-term survivors of acute respiratory distress

I do believe this is a good enough source especially when what is said is uncontested by any other source. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 09:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

That is a lot of detail. I glanced at the copy, it would appear to be fine so far. It certainly passes most tests. If there is some issue you're having with someone contesting that, I'd need to see their counter-argument. If you're just trying to vet it here, it seems acceptable to use. Wjhonson (talk) 10:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for posting, the article is contencious at the moment and i want outside opinion on this source that i want to add. One user questioned it, but to save heated discussion i thought i'd bring it to where the buck stops. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 10:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The counter arguments that I have seen is that Physicians for Human Rights is an advocacy group and that the report is not peer-reviewed. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:11, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no requirement in our policy for a reliable source to be peer-reviewed. Some articles adhere to a stricter level of sourcing, by editor consensus, but in general we do not have such strictness in the policy. There is no reliable source prohibition against sources created by advocacy groups unless the group is some sort of *fringe* group. A strident tone, a self-righteousness, in the material would indicate a red flag. Wjhonson (talk) 10:20, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

When you say "advocacy" you may be thinking of "extremist" which is a lot further away. Even extremist publications may be used, but only in articles about themselves and only in reference to their beliefs, etc. Not about other people. I.E. Extremist publications aren't reliable sources about what they say about others. A bit more on the other peer-review bit. Peer-reviewed articles, are considered *more* reliable, but we certainly source things to articles, books, etc that are not peer-reviewed. For example the vast majority of biographies receive no peer-review, just editorial review by the publisher. Wjhonson (talk) 10:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The other option would be to get hold of the articles (which are from peer-reviewed journals as far as I can tell) and cite the studies directly without using Physicians for Human Rights as the intermediary source. Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange might be helpful in getting the articles if that is a problem.Slp1 (talk) 13:38, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

That is certainly a possibility. But there are severval disadvantages. First, we loose the synthesis of the authors of the report. Secondly, while the report is available online for free, the original sources require access to a very well-stocked medical (and possibly law library. Resource exchange may help, but is unlikely to be able to get full access to the papers even for just the contributors, let alone for all readers. And finally, the report seems written for a well-informed lay audience, while the original papers are highly specialized and much harder to read and understand. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:50, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Not withstanding the other issues mentioned above, I was able to easily access all the articles listed above via my university library, and can send copies to anybody who sends me an email. --Slp1 (talk) 20:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Position Papers are reliable sources for the opinion of advocacy groups

As a formal statement by an advocacy group, the statement is a reliable source on the position of the advocacy group. However, it is not a peer-reviewed scientific statement. It does not have that kind of value. The position paper writers are using research in areas not really focused on their topic to buttress their point of view. This alone might not pass peer review/ But moreover, this emphasizes the fact that this is an opinion piece by an advocacy group. So, if the question is "Is this a reliable Source?" the answer is "Depends upon what you are trying to source. If you want to source the opinion of this group, it is entirely reliable. If you are trying to establish scientific source, it is not a good source." --Blue Tie (talk) 01:50, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is an example of a statement (copied out of the report) that would be useful discribing the mental effects of near-suffocation.

The experience of near-suffocation is also associated with the development of predominantly respiratory panic attacks, high levels of depressive symptoms, and prolonged posttraumatic stress disorder.

This statement is backed up with two medical peer reviewed papers; C. Bouwer & D. J. Stein, Association of panic disorder with a history of traumatic suffocation, 154 Am. J. Psychiatry 1566 (1997), and C. Bouwer & D. J. Stein, Panic disorder following torture by suffocation is associated with predominantly respiratory symptoms, 29 Psychological Med. 233 (1999), noteing both sources are writen before 9/11 so not anti-american bias. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 03:27, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

That seems acceptable. Since you are citing from this secondary source, you might be on firmer ground with a full citation to the underlying primary source and including a statement such as :"as cited by source xxx" to indicate that you yourself did not consult the primary, but consulted a secondary source citing the primary. That's a nice fat run-on sentence. At least the editors at the article can now discuss this potential way of citing, and perhaps accept this milder method without edit-warring over it. I believe we have an article at something like Citing Sources which may have an example of how to properly cite to an underlying source. Wjhonson (talk) 08:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 08:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure. In an article on Near-suffocation, this would be an excellent reference. It would not be a good reference however on articles that do not deal with Near suffociation. In particular, an article which, for example, might be called "Waterboarding" could not use this as a cite without a violation of WP:OR. --Blue Tie (talk) 18:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

OR is something wikipedians do not our sources. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 01:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Why? Waterboarding is one way of inducing near-suffocation through "simulated drowning". As a parallel, information from a research article about burns in general would be certainly be useful and appropriate in an article about scalding burns.--Slp1 (talk) 20:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

While the Physicians for Human Rights report seems patient and scholarly, it has no named authors, and is presumably not peer-reviewed. If we have a real, published secondary source then it is reasonable to quote their evaluations when putting together our articles. Unfortunately I don't see that this particular report counts as a reliable source under our rules. There is no guarantee that it received even as much editorial scrutiny as a newspaper article, and its origin from an activist group should make us watchful (Unless you can find some other reliable source commenting on the quality of PHR's reports). EdJohnston (talk) 21:11, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Check the acknowledgments section. Named authors are "Scott Allen, MD, Physicians for Human Rights (PHR), Columbia Medicine as a Profession Fellow; Devon Chaffee, JD, Human Rights First (HRF), Kroll Family Human Rights Fellow; and Farnoosh Hashemian, MPH, Research Associate (PHR), i.e. an MD, a JD, and a Master of Public Health. It also acknowledges a large number of other reviewers and contributors, including several more MDs and JDs, a retired Justice of the South African Constitutional Court, and a retired US army brigadier general. This is not quite the same as independent peer review, but it is rather impressive. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:40, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Are these sources reliable?

I would like to include the following statement in the article Banu Qurayza:

The Banu Qurayza also agreed with the appointment of Sa'ad ibn Mua'dh [as an arbiter].

Note: The Banu Qurayza were one of the tribes that came into conflict with the Islamic prophet Muhammad, and they are the subject of various verses of the Qur'an, Islam's holy scriptures. The above quote is in the context of a dilemma after (or near the end of) the Battle of the Trench.

I am backing this up with the following sources:

Khadduri, Majid (1955). War And Peace in the Law of Islam. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins Press.

Khadduri was a professor at Indiana University, the University of Chicago, and at Johns Hopkins University. He founded the Middle East studies program at the Johns Hopkins University Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies.[19]
Johns Hopkins Press, the publisher of the book, is an academic university press.

Hashmi, Sohail H.; Buchanan, Allen E; Moore, Margaret (2003). States, Nations, and Borders: The Ethics of Making Boundaries. Cambridge University Press.

Sohail Hashmi is an associate professor at . He specializes in the role of Islam in domestic and international relations.[20] In 2005, he was named a Carnegie scholar. Hashmi's research includes "Islamic state’s relations with Muslims and non-Muslims."[21]
Allen Buchanan is a professor at Duke university. His research concerns political philosophy, and philosophy of international law.
Cambridge University Press, the publisher of the book is one of the most respected academic publishers.

Mohammed Abu-Nimer (2000-2001). "A Framework for Nonviolence and Peacebuilding in Islam". Journal of Law and Religion 15 (1-2): 247

Mohammed Abu-Nimer is a professor at the American University's School of International Service. His research includes "Islam, nonviolence and peace", "Religion and peace", "Culture and peace and conflict resolution".
"The Journal of Law and Religion is an interfaith, interdisciplinary peer-reviewed English language academic and professional journal devoted to issues that engage both theology and law."[22]

The above fact can also be found in a medieval source: Al-Sira Al-Nabawiyya (Ibn Kathir). This can be found page 166 of the 2000 version as translated from Arabic to English by Trevor Le Gassick (professor of Arabic Literature[23]).

The question is whether the above sources are reliable enough by the standards of WP:RS and WP:SOURCES.Bless sins (talk) 18:53, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Bless sins, those sources are reliable, but some of the wording in your version is contentious. I commented on the talkpage. ☯ Zenwhat (talk) 00:18, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The sources do appear to be reliable upon first glance... especially Khadduri, whose book I see referenced frequently in academic bibliographies. ITAQALLAH 00:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The Japan Times

A third opinion please. Recently, my edit see diff has been challenged[24]. I am curious of the opinion of other editors. Is my use of that article from The Japan Times consistent with 'reliable source' standards at Wikipedia? Thanks. SaltyBoatr (talk) 01:10, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

SaltyBoatr a good question. There are two issues here. One is whether the Japan Times article is an opinion piece or not. If it is not, then you should, in my humble opinion, instead of replacing one source with another, rather, create a paragraph which combines the two sources various statements, and there should be no problem. Even if the article is an opinion piece, it can still be used, although this situation is not as clear with some editors. We may, illuminate a situation from primary sources if a secondary source has reflected on the same issue. In general primary sources, which would include opinion columns, can be used to fill-in an issue brought forth by a secondary source, although primary source should not pre-dominate in any article. I hope that's more clear. Wjhonson (talk) 01:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Neither source appears to be reliable. The article from the Japan Times reads like an opinion piece. Meanwhile, the original source is a self-published copy of a piece by David Kopel (a fellow of CATO, an extreme group) on an anti-gun control advocacy site. I've removed both sources and added a citation needed tag. ☯ Zenwhat (talk) 02:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Which WP:Policy are you reading that prohibits opinion pieces? Also, how does an editor define 'opinion piece'? That article, after all, is about politics. It seems that neutral opinion pieces about politics are typical the type of sourcing an editor would use in an article about politics. SaltyBoatr (talk) 02:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

zenwhat, you're interjecting your own opinion about CATO here which is inappropriate. saltyboatr, opinion pieces are not prohibited, but this is a question of context. the various sections in the article about gun laws in different countries generally rely upon fairly 'dry' recitations of what the gun regulations are. an opinion piece detailing what appears the author's opinions about how well the gun laws are enforced is not at all reliable compared to a source that provides statistics on such matters. of course, i have a far more important question pending on the gun politics talk page regarding your use of guncite as a reliable source in one article, and your refusal to allow its use in the gun politics article, but as yet no response has been tendered.... Anastrophe (talk) 03:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

CATO is Libertarian. They've never pulled more than a few percentage of the vote and they have almost no candidates in office, so they're just slightly a step above Communists and Neonazis. Opinion pieces are prohibited, except in cases where the opinion is particularly relevant (i.e., "George Bush wrote X on his blog" -- link to Bush's blog). In other cases, they are prohibited because they are assertions of opinion, not necessarily assertions of fact. It is true that you will find many Wikipedians who think it's perfectly alright to use blogs, opinion pieces, and self-published sources by stoners and this to some degree has even made its way into policy pages. Per WP:IAR, such claims should be ignored. The fact that I have to make this point, however, is ridiculous.

And I oppose gun control, btw. ☯ Zenwhat (talk) 06:00, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

your opinion of CATO/Libertarians is noted. i think few would consider libertarians to be extremists in the common vernacular. i don't recall ever reading about people being lynched by libertarians, or nail-bombs in malls that were planted by libertarians. but we digress. your example is weak, because unless george bush's opinion on X were directly relevant to a particular article, and he were a noted, publish authority on the matter, his opinion would not be valid as a reliable source. opinion pieces are frequently used on wikipedia, particularly where the article is about matters that are open to interpretation. you're unlikely to find an opinion used as a reliable source in the article for Carbon Dioxide, for example, while you will find opinions used as reliable sources in the article Abortion debate. it's a question of context.Anastrophe (talk) 06:11, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent) I'm sorry I have to agree in principle but redirect. The issue that takes center-stage with the CATO/David Kopel piece is undue weight and only secondarily reliable sources. In a general article about gun control laws, solely citing the self-published work of an author with a minority view who is known to have a particular point-of-view would be undue weight. However that same exact work, cited in an article about say the views of libertarians, or the views of Kopel or CATO would be much more appropriate. General articles should focus on majority viewpoints and sources generally, with perhaps a smaller mention of minority views. So your issue here isn't really RS, its UNDUE. Have a great day. Wjhonson (talk) 07:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Anastrophe, it is not merely my opinion that CATO is extreme. Whether or not a group has engaged in violence says nothing about their extremity. Opinion pieces are frequently used on Wikipedia. So are blogs, self-published sources, and a lot of unreliable sources. That's the reason this noticeboard exists. Also, Wjhonson is right: I wouldn't have any particular objection to having David Kopel's views be out there if David Kopel was given the weight of "a few percent" and not used as the sole source. ☯ Zenwhat (talk) 07:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

IMO, both references are good. The last sentence of the first diff mentioned reads like an opinion though. I would try to combine the two references.Ngchen (talk) 15:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I ask again: Where do I look in WP:Policy to read about why 'opinion pieces' are prohibited. Zenwhat, where do you read this policy? SaltyBoatr (talk) 15:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The reason I ask is that I see that 'mainstream newspapers' are considered to be most reliable per WP:V. I see nothing about (except with mainstream newspaper opinion pieces) in WP:V. Perhaps your prohibition of mainstream newspaper opinion pieces should be added to WP:V. Thanks. SaltyBoatr (talk) 15:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

It's in there somewhere. And if it isn't, WP:IAR. You've got to be joking if you think it's OK to use opinion pieces to establish facts. They're tertiary sources and they regularly contain false or misleading material. Their mainstream status is irrelevant. If Wikipedia relies on tertiary sources, that makes Britannica better in quality, because Britannica is itself a tertiary source. If Wikipedia relies on tertiary sources, Wikipedia becomes what could be called a "tertiary tertiary source." It's a jumble of poor articles backed by blogs, opinion pieces, self-published websites, political websites, and gossip. ☯ Zenwhat (talk) 19:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Zenwhat, you are arguing WP:POLICY now. You asserted that journalistic 'opinion' in mainstream newspapers is somehow prohibited. Make that policy change in WP:V and see if it sticks. SaltyBoatr (talk) 19:29, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Salty you already got your answer, at least in regard to this noticeboard a while ago. Opinion pieces are not "prohibited", they can be used in certain situations. Both of you have a great day.Wjhonson (talk) 20:40, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you're objecting to the way I worded it. When I said, "prohibited, I didn't mean they can never be used. I said they are "prohibited...except..." There are exceptions. This doesn't appear to be one of them, because it's an article on gun control, not an article on:

Dave Kopel
What Dave Kopel thinks on gun control
Libertarians
What Libertarians think about gun control
CATO
What CATO thinks about gun control

☯ Zenwhat (talk) 23:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Zen you are correct, we are in full agreement. Wjhonson (talk) 18:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

lambiek comiclopedia

What are people's opinions about this site? This is in reference to Talk:David Beauchard.P4k (talk) 17:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually after doing a little research I can see I'm probably just wrong about this. Forget about it.P4k (talk) 17:29, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Must a source be faultless to be reliable?

One of the sources for Duchy of Pless is the memoirs of Daisy, Princess of Pless, who is one of the reasons for the notability of this obsolete territorial title. (It goes back to the twelfth century, and became a principality in the nineteenth.)

These books have primarily been used to document the Princess's immediate family; and (unlike many autobiographies) they have an editor's introduction and notes. One of these has been used to impugn the reliability of the book as a whole. The text asserts that "The wicked Polish Expropriation Act¹ was passed in spite of all Hans [the then Prince] and his friends could do;" the editor adds that "On September 27, 1908; this law, however, was never actually put into execution."

An editor has found that this is a slight exaggeration; a book directly on the subject (Imanuel Geiss: Der polnische Grenzstreifen; p.20) notes a single occasion in April 1911 - three years later - when a different Prussian administration did take four Polish properties. (Geiss does not actually assert that this law was used; but it is a reasonable inference.)

The editor now claims that this discrepancy not only requires an alteration of the article on this point, which has been done; but also means that the entire book is unreliable. Is this reasonable? All books make slips, and this may even be a well-intended generalization. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:07, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

No; I'd just cite the fact that the Duchess' claim is disputed or contradicted by the other book, assuming that this contradiction is actually somehow relevant to the article subject and not just a means of impugning the autobiography. If I had a nickel for every time someone tried to reject a New York Times article as a source by mentioning Jayson Blair... I'd have at least 25¢. MastCell ^Talk 21:25, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks; since Geiss in fact agrees that the anti-Polish movement came to a standstill after the "stormy" opposition to the bill, I just toned down to "hardly ever enforced" per HMS Pinafore. (Germany and Austria attempted to take over Russian Poland during the First World War; but this was the same movement, not the same legislation.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Your understanding is correct, that slight or sometimes even gross errors do not necessarily impugn the reliability of a source to the point of totally discrediting it (cf. The Bible). OK that was just a bit of a joke there. Editors should always be willing to discuss the issue sensibly, striving for a consensus view, and not take extreme positions, see WP:POINT. Wjhonson (talk) 21:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

A blog associated with a reliable source

Resolved

I know blogs are generally considered not to be reliable sources but I was wondering if there are exceptions. In particular I am interested in using elements from here to improve the Wikipedia article Anthology of Interest II. In this case the blog is associated with what I would normally consider a reliable source, Wired, and is written by the author of another article which actually appeared in the magazine. The author of the blog seems to regard the additional entries [25] as extended coverage from the article. In this case can the blog be used? I think even a semi-reliable source would be an improvement for the currently unsourced Wikipedia page but I'm not sure. Advice would be greatly appreciated. Star dust 8212 02:28, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

You have a good question. See our policy statement here on the use of a Self-Published Source if the person is an acknowledged expert on the topic of the article, and was previously published by a reliable third-party source.Wjhonson (talk) 02:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

It really is a good question. Take a famous political blog like that written by Oliver Kamm. Should his blog be considered an exception to policy and be allowable as a critical reference in a biographical article about a living person?BernardL (talk) 03:51, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Our policy already is stated to allow experts in the topic of the article to be cited if they have been previously published by a third-party source. If this expert is either not an expert in the topic, or has not been previously published by a third-party source, then he would currently fail our policy statements. You might consider whether you'd like to bring that to the talk page of verifiability. Wjhonson (talk) 04:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the quick reply, my read of the policy seems like in this instance this can be considered acceptable. I'll leave this open a couple days to give anyone else a chance to offer an opinion and then mark it as resolved. Thanks again for your help! Star dust 8212 14:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The issue is really whether editorials/blogs are subject to editorial control which really can only be decided case by case. --neonwhite user page talk 18:20, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Is there a good way that you know of to determine when there is editorial control? In this case I suspect Wired does have some editorial control though I don't know how much. Star dust 8212 02:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not the technology of the "blog" that makes it an unreliable source. What makes it an unreliable source is the nature of the editorial process.

Good blog:

Closed registration
A handful of editors
All editors are experts
They're journalists who do original stories

Bad blog:

Open registrations
Hundreds of editors
Editors are average people
They copy and paste stuff from CNN and Fox News

In general, blogs should be avoided, but in some cases (i.e., experts who run their own blogs), a "good blog," is not really a blog at all, but simply a news source. ☯ Zenwhat (talk) 02:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I think in this case the blog could be considered a "Good Blog", I can't be sure of all editors of the blog but the specific entries I want to use are written by an author who previously published at least one article on the same topic. Thanks for your input. Star dust 8212 02:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Consider Associated Press (thousands of editors) and Reuters (financial firm) within those definitions. -- SEWilco (talk) 02:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

You're right, SEWilco, which is why it occurred to me that several more criteria would apply, one of which is how often they get their facts right and whether they're advocates or just neutral reporters. Still, though, does the AP or Reuters actually run a blog? I don't think, but I could be wrong.

To clarify this and since I had the same problem with User:Sceptre on Gamespot, I made a policy proposal to clarify the reliability of blogs here. ☯ Zenwhat (talk) 04:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

In general I agree, and we discussed here last year or so, that specific case, towit, if a journalist, who has already published on a report, then gives continuing coverage in their own "blog" can that be used? IIRC the consensus was that it was fine. But I'll take a look at your proposal. Wjhonson (talk) 05:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources used in Cannabis

Specifically, the stuff at Cannabis#Various strains of cannabis. [26] User:Pundit seemed to have agreed a while back, I thought, that the sources there were bad, which was the main basis for why Chocolate Thai was merged into Cannabis. After it was merged, though, he\she put the sources back in. I tried to remove them and was told not to violate consensus.

See Talk:Chocolate Thai and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chocolate Thai (2nd nomination). Based on the comments there, it appears to me that there was more consensus to remove the nonsense than keep it. ☯ Zenwhat (talk) 04:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

If I may comment on this: as I posted an RfC about the sources and the results were unanimously in favor of keeping the references, I believe there are no grounds to delete them (although definitely a wider consensus would be great to have and if then the majority is for deletion, so be it). I agree that the topic is unusual and I totally understand everybody, who after all decides, that in the field of marijuana strains, a specialized cannabis fans' magazine, even if established and international, is not good enough as a source (which I would probably incline to as well, but I believe in this specific area there are no other credible sources). However, the AfD is irrelevant here - the decision was about DELETION/MERGING of an article, and not about the sources used. It would make no sense to assume that deleting one article automatically bans the references it contained. Therefore, although I know barely anything about the topic of Chocolate Thai, and although only through discussing it I vastly expanded my limited knowledge of cannabis, I believe that at current stage the repeated cuts by Zenwhat are ungrounded and against the decision from an RfC. Pundit|utter 21:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Unanimous, yes, because you only had two people that responded. If we include them in the opinions of all the other editors, there's still no consensus for Pundit's sources to stay up and she's tried to keep them up through reverting my edits and making threats. ☯ Zenwhat (talk) 22:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Dear Zenwhat, I already wrote above that a wider consensus would be welcome - I totally agree that more than 2 people expressing their view would be better. Still, many RfC end up with a couple of comments, which nevertheless should be at least appreciated and respected (until a wider consensus emerges). I honestly don't know what you mean by "threats" - if by these you mean my pleads to you to respect Wikipedia rules, my hope was not to threaten you in any way, but rather convince to observe the policies. take care, don't feel threatened and cheer up :) Pundit|utter 22:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Blog interviews

I hope this is the right place for this, I was told to come here. If a blog interviews an actor and that actor has a page here. What would the blog owner have to do to get his blog as a reliable source?Megagents (talk) 16:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Please add ~~~~ to the end of your comments in order to user-timestamp them. As to your question see self published sources noting that the blogger must be an "...established expert on the topic of the article, whose work in the relevant field has been previously published by third-party sources". Wjhonson (talk) 22:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thank you.Megagents (talk) 16:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Can a memoir of a husband/wife be presented without explanation.

Can a memoir of a husband/wife be presented without explanation of the nature of claims made in the memoir ? I am dealing with situation in which a memoir of a wife is given as source for several authorative historic claims about her husband. That memoir is given as source of information presented as simple fact. It has been proven that one of the "facts" was in fact completely false and contradicting historic knowledge. Should sentences based on the memoir be changed in way to inform the reader that this information comes from memoirs of said ruler's wife ?--Molobo (talk) 22:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

More generally, and imho, primary sources should *always* be quoted and never paraphrased or presented as bold facts. Quoting makes clear exactly who is talking and exactly what they said without comment. Conclusions and analysis of what is said must only be cited from secondary sources, although primary sources may be used to more fully illustrate what a secondary source has brought forward.Wjhonson (talk) 22:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The memoir, however, is not entirely a primary source; it's an autobiography, but contains extensive notes by a third-party editor; what is being cited is the notes. The alleged contradiction is the discrepancy discussed in #Must a source be faultless to be reliable?, above: the editor said that a law was unenforced; it was enforced once, three years after passage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect , the author writes that it was never enforced. It was enforced four times.--Molobo (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

What Molobo's source says is that the Government made no use of the law, but in 1911, three years, under different circumstances and a new Chancellor, the Greater Ostmark movement did succeed with four Polish properties. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

This biography also has the same version. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

What would be the problem in saying "Source X states the law was never enforced, but Source Y states it was enforced four times". Wjhonson (talk) 01:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

None; that's what the article does say, and did when Molobo posted. What Molobo appears to want is to have the book expunged from the article because of this discrepancy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Right I don't find that approach entirely consistent with how I understand policy. In fact, without a source, stating that the law had been enforced four times would be original research. At the least, both sides should be presented. Wjhonson (talk) 19:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed; however a secondary source such as a scholarly article should overrule primary sources in such case - presumably the scholar had found the diary erroneous.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I see no reason to suppose that the secondary scholar had consulted the memoir, which he does not cite; but his statement is duly included in our article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

"Evidence-Based Complimentary and Alternative Medicine"

This journal is occassionally claimed as a source for Alternative medicine claims, but it is a very, very strange one.

For instance, in the first issue of the latest volume, we have an article claiming pyramid power reduces stress in rats [27], one claiming that quantum mechanics means that you cannot test homeopathy, because the blinding ruins the resonance between practitioner, "remedy", and patient [28]... And as far as I can tell, they either very rarely, or outright refuse to publish articles negative to CAM. Can we have it officially declared unreliable, as it's often claimed to be a valid medical/scientific source. Adam Cuerden ^talk 22:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Adam would you like to rephrase your question? You start by saying its claimed as a source "for Alternative medicine claims". If the magazine is making a claim, it's making a claim. Why does your link cite to the NIH? Is the NIH suggesting that the magazine is actually one utilized with frequency within the Alternative medicine community? If it's one of the primary sources for that community, then it's claims can be cited on articles related to that community can't it? Or am I misunderstanding your question? Wjhonson (talk) 22:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I've seen it used as a citation for scientific claim, and it is this that I believe Adam is referring to. I believe I've removed all it's uses in that context though, so it may not be an issue. Jefffire (talk) 22:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you provide specific examples of citations you have removed recently please? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 23:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually allow me to provide one which you removed with the edit summary stating "...published in the journal of zero-respect": [29]. Perhaps we should have RSN look at these specific instances and have them evaluate them individually? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 23:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you seriously contending that this journal is a reliable and authoritative source of scientific information?! Jefffire (talk) 23:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Whether or not you or I agree with the conclusions of the research published by this journal is irrelevant to it being a reliable source. As far as I know, EBCAM has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Read more here. It is exhaustively peer reviewed and depends on basic and clinical research, methodology, and history and philosophy of medicine in relevant areas. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 23:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Right then, so you'll be adding a section to stress on how pyramids can reduce it? Seriously, you've picked a lame horse to champion. Jefffire (talk) 08:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Adam, I checked it out and it appears to be legitimate. Take a look. [30] If you dig through studies, you'll find all kinds of quacks making absurd claims. What editors appear to be doing is cherrypicking obscure studies that have been utterly ridiculed in peer-review and using the fallacy, "A scientific study said it! So it must be true!" The quacks are notable. It should be noted, however, that their conclusions are not widely accepted. It's OK to use the citation, but peer-reviews of it should be investigated. ☯ Zenwhat (talk) 23:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

It is published by Oxford University in England. Now why would they do that? Anthon01 (talk) 23:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Because Oxford Press is a publishing company, making it their job? Jefffire (talk) 23:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

They also have a reputation. Anthon01 (talk) 23:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

For good ink and paper. I smell put-upon knowledge. Jefffire (talk) 08:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent) I would us all to review the Statement page and Editorial board for this journal. Perhaps there can be some discussion at the Talk page of Alternative Medicine on where it would be appropriate to cite this journal and where it would not. Wjhonson (talk) 01:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It's usable to cite for the various wacky claims of pseudoscientists, but it's not usable to cite for factual scientific information. I can't believe we're even having this conversation, its a piece of crap. When was the last time anyone saw it cited in reputable journal? Jefffire (talk) 08:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

That depends. What do you consider a reputable journal? Journal of Pediatric Oncology Nursing? Integrative Cancer Therapy? Anesthesia & Analgesia? Cancer Research? Journal of Clinical Oncology? Physical Therapy? Journal of Immunology? Journal of Nutrition? Molecular Cancer Therapeutics? CMAJ? Journal of General Virology? Infection & Immunity? Journal of Leukocyte Biology? Yes, all of these have cited research from EBCAM. Considering that EBCAM started only 4 years ago, I'd say that this is rather outstanding. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 18:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Well then what's the impact factor, and do you stand by their pyramid power article? Jefffire (talk) 19:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent) Yes and that's why we would not cite it for factual scientific information. Rather we would cite it for their claim, quoting and citing them as the source, as a minority viewpoint. Keeping always in mind undue weight. We would not cite 95 theories of pyramid power even within the Pyramid power article, but we can certainly cite one claim of it, outside it's own article. Remember this is a claim, not a fact. If the claim represents a significant minority viewpoint, then it should be included. If it represents just one of 50 competing minority viewpoints, you should discuss and decide on a case-by-case basis which claims are most significant, on the associated article talk page. Wjhonson (talk) 19:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the lucidity again, Wjhonson. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Deadly nightshade

Hello. I would like to add a sentence to this article which in effect states: Deadly nightshade is used in homeopathic remedies commonly. Source which I have to support this claim include: Discovering Homeopathy: Medicine for the 21st Century By Dana Ullman, The Oxford Book of Health Foods By John Griffith Vaughan & Patricia Ann Judd, and Family Homeopath by Robin Hayfield. I do have other sources, but let's go with any/all of these three for now.

One proponent of leaving this information out of the article cites that a book about plants or specifically about "Deadly Nightshade" which mentions its homeopathic uses would have to be presented in order to include the sentence.

My questions: Are any/all of the sources I mention above sufficient sources of verifiability for the the sentence which I would like to insert? If not, is the only way to include this information is by citing it from a plant specific book?

Thanks for your time. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 23:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi all, I've contended that we require a mention on a source which is authoritative on deadly nightshade, rather than on homeopathy, as a base line for inclusion (I suggested a plant text book as an example, but Levine seems to have run away on that). The really big trouble is that there are literally tens of thousands of substances used in homeopathic remedies, and setting an inclusion criterion so low would create an obviously ridiculous situation. Also, there has been precious little time for other contributors to make their views known on the talkpage, giving no chance for consensus. Jefffire (talk) 23:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Why not fact tag instead of deleting? Anthon01 (talk) 23:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The bar that you are setting is unnecessarily high. If a Lancet article mentions that nightshades as a starting material for a remedy, you find it unacceptable. This is about uses not plant nomenclature. Not even the Homeopathic Pharmacopeia is acceptable to you and your assistants. Anthon01 (talk) 23:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Let's wait for a third-party opinion from RSN before we debate it out. That way it is clear what we are asking them to look at. Thank you. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 23:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

(ed conflict) Maybe we should add a section to the Berlin Wall article describing the use of diluted Wall crumbs in homeopathy.[31] I can see this getting absurd very quickly. Skinwalker (talk)(~

Sure, do you have a reliable source for that though? I'm sure you can agree that the top one, two or three homeopathy books are reliable for their topic.Wjhonson (talk) 01:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent). Here is the way I would approach this claim. Instead of including a bald fact, rather cite and quote your source statements from the books above. I reviewed the links and all three books appear to be a type of comprehensive study across a range of either homeopathy or health food topics. In particular I find it too restrictive to assume that the Oxford Book of Health Foods would give horribly inaccurate views. For example 'The Oxford Book of Health states "Deadly Nightshade might heal cold sores". There have been no scientific studies of this however." For any contentious claim, I always advise quoting the source. This allows our readers to judge for themselves whether the source is credible. We give higher respect to peer-reviewed articles, that doesn't mean that we use them to the exclusion of all other material.Wjhonson (talk) 01:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Your suggestion is good, but it doesn't address the core issue of this dispute (and Deadly Nightshade is just one of many articles where the same dispute is taking place), which is the contention by those who are deleting these references, that sources about homeopathy are unreliable if they are written by people with expertise in homeopathy. See here: "Unfortunately, most of the sources asserting how these plants are used in homeopathy are not independent, neither are they mainstream. However, if you find such a source that asserts that the homeopathic use of the plant is prominent, then inclusion is justified. Simply citing it to a book on homeopathic remedies written by a homeopath is not an independent source and according to the guideline I linked to should not be used." Dlabtot (talk) 02:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

That link however is to a Talk page which has no effective power here. Any editor can post *almost* anything they like on Talk pages. Once they are accepted as policy or even in guidelines, that is when they would exert an advisorial role. Wjhonson (talk) 02:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm simply pointing out the nature of the dispute, which is completely unrelated to the question of whether items are "included as bald fact" or "cited and quoted". I'm certainly in no way suggesting that the rant I linked to should "exert an advisorial role" - quite the opposite. Dlabtot (talk) 02:24, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

And by the way, there is no reason why you could not simply fork the discussion by creating a page called something like Homeopathic uses of Nightshade, or Nightshade as a Health Food, or whatever you choose. You might face a Merge discussion or an AfD but you could certainly create the page. That might effectively end the conflict without blood loss. Wjhonson (talk) 02:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, totally unrelated to the issue at hand, which is, whether or not homeopathic sources are considered reliable when discussing homeopathic claims. Dlabtot (talk) 02:24, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a good suggestion, but my fear is that there may only be enough information about Homeopathic uses of Nightshade or even Medicinal uses of Nightshade to create merely a stub. And rather than MERGE, I could potentially see an AFD and then we're right back here. I know it is tough to speak in generalities, but I guess I came here looking for a solid answer to one of the questions at the center of this multi-page homeopathic debate. Specifically: Reliable Sources - Can a source which is an authoritative and comprehensive study of homeopathy be used as a source in article foo to include the claim, "foo is used in homeopathic remedies which is claimed to treat some ailment," if in that authoritative homeopathic source, this statement is clearly verifiable?

I understand that The Oxford Book of Health goes beyond being a homeopathic source and is more of an overview of all kinds of health sciences and treatments, and that in this case it would be a better source than the two homeopathic sources I posted here originally. And perhaps there will be mentions of homeopathic uses of all kinds of plants in the Oxford Book of Health or other sources of a similar caliber. But I guess I still would like clear answer on whether or not a source which is an authoritative and comprehensive study of homeopathy passes the WP:RS threshold on its own to include claims such as "foo is used in homeopathic remedies". -- Levine2112 ^discuss 02:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent) Contrary to the assertion from the Talk page, we do not require that a view be "mainstream". In fact we specifically note that minority views should be included as well. Homeopathy would certainly seem to fit the bill as being a minority view on the use of Nightshade for medicinal purposes. Furthermore, since we do not require peer-review it's merely advisory for certain types of articles, it seems fairly innocuous to include this work. Contrary to an above critique however, I would continue to suggest fully quoting and citing the source inline. Minority views should not be given implicit presentation as majority views. The effort being to reduce contention in the process not foster more. Wjhonson (talk) 02:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that I completely understand you. To confirm that I do, I will restate your thoughts in my own words and let me know if you agree: You support authoritative homeopathic sources as "good enough" to use in article foo to include text such as "foo is used in a homeopathic remedy." You especially support this if the actual text is quoted exactly from the source and attributed to that source so that readers know exactly where this claim is coming from. Yes? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 03:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Levine you understand me completely. Wjhonson (talk) 08:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd just like to remind people that the issue of contention is a source to establish the notability of the subject to deadly nightshade, not the fact that it simply exists. Jefffire (talk) 08:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I think Jefffire you don't mean notability but rather undue weight. I'd just like to remind everyone we're not writing a scientific encyclopedia, but a general one. Per undue, minority views should be given minority space. If the nightshade article is full of minority views crowding out the majority view, that would be undue weight. If we can have minority views like what Muslims think of Jesus on the Jesus article, than we can support minority views like what homeopathic practicioners think of Nightshade on its article. I repeat that this published source, appearing to be a standard high-quality source *on this topic* is acceptable. We don't want to completely silence the homeopathic or alternative medicine viewpoint, but on the other hand, we must always keep in mind Undue Weight, in any article, not just plant articles. Wjhonson (talk) 08:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps that is what I mean. That is rather the issue which was of biggest concern on the talk page. I did think it peculiar that the issue was taken to this particular notice board, since its fairly irrelevant to the discussion, rendering this section a big waste of time. Jefffire (talk) 08:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes that's right, so you have a big long article on say Daisys and somewhere in there you have a blurb that homeopathic practicioners use daisy sap to treat sun burns. Or whatever. The individual editors per-article, can work out how much space minority claims should have. The general principle would be, a thing like that doesn't really hurt the article, in fact in some cases, it would probably make it more interesting. You wouldn't be presenting these claims as facts, only as observations, citing the source. Have a great day. Wjhonson (talk) 08:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The issue of notability still exists, do we add a mention for every use daisies have ever been put to by anyone, everywhere ever? Do we add mentions to every article of every use anyone has ever put them to...etc. This however is beyond the scope of the notice board. Jefffire (talk) 08:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

No you base it on sourcing. I'm sure there are uses for daisys that have never been published. Or even if published, that no one actually continues to use them. And if someone has a source stating that Ancient Egyptians used daisys to predict the weather, I think that would actually be interesting. Don't you?Wjhonson (talk) 09:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

If that's the level of incorporation then the article on daisies will be nothing but its "uses". Sorry, but inclusion into Wikipedia requires base standards of notability, but just that something was published. Now this is entirely off-topic for the page, so I suggest taking it to the talk page for undue-weight if you want to change wiki policy. Jefffire (talk) 09:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

No because an article simply on it uses would be undue weight. I'm not suggesting changing our policy, I'm interpreting the policy, as it stands, for particular situations that arise. Wjhonson (talk) 09:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a highly non-standard interpretation if your suggesting that any published mention warrants an inclusion. Jefffire (talk) 09:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

And you know I did not say that.Wjhonson (talk) 09:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Well that's the issue at hand. I take it you agree with me then, that some establishment of notability is required per the undue-weight guidelines. Jefffire (talk) 09:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I've been involved in the original discussion - and this is the point I've reached there: I agree with several posters - the issue is not whether deadly nightshade is important to homeopathy (which a homeopathy textbook will say) but whether homeopathy is important to deadly nightshade (which a source of information, such as a book, on deadly nightshade will tell you). Stephen B Streater (talk) 09:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not an all-or-nothing situation. We have an article on Ginseng, you also know that many people believe Ginseng has some kind of health or medicinial quality. You might perceive that as a minority view. I'm sure there is someone who thinks Ginseng cures cancer. We aren't inclined to present every minority view, that's an extreme interpretation. The idea is moderation. We don't suppress all minority views, we allow the presentation of some, within the boundaries of undue weight. Wjhonson (talk) 09:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure it is easy to find a non-Muslim source for Muslim's venerating Jesus - so this would pass my test for inclusion in the Jesus article. I'm sure there is an independent source for a significant use of Ginseng being for (perceived or otherwise) medicinal purposes. So there is no problem with minority views per se. The fundamental issue is that Homeopathy is not authoritative enough to be its own authority. What homeopaths think cannot decide whether homeopathy is important to a subject. Other people have to think it too. In short, Homeopaths are not authoritative sources for their significance to all the substances they use. Stephen B Streater (talk) 09:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Clearly it's not appropriate to add information about use in homeopathy to the articles about every plant. But in the case of deadly nightshade it is obviously relevant. This is one of the most common poisonous plants in Europe and it's also well known to have been used in cosmetics and other preparations, to the extent that it is well known by a second vernacular name, belladonna. Its use is a prime example of the homeopathic notion, and this notion however abhorrent to modern medical practitioners is of considerable interest in the history of science, history of ideas, folklore studies and many other fields. All it needs is a single sentence referenced to the Oxford Book of Health. There is no way that such an addition could be read as an endorsement of homeopathy. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

That is exactly an example of what would be acceptable sourcing. Jefffire (talk) 10:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Well I'm glad that we could all find common ground. Wjhonson (talk) 10:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Beg your pardon, but that's been my positional all along -that we required an authoritative source on Deadly nightshade saying that homeopathy is an important usage. Levine disagees. Jefffire (talk) 10:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

That is my understanding too. Stephen B Streater (talk) 10:19, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Books published by Oxford University Press are reliable unless there is a very good argument to the contrary. All we are looking for here is verification of the statement that DN is used in homeopathy. The Oxford handbook is more than adequate for that. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't make such a blanket statement. Oxford University Press can print books of varying degrees of authority and reliability, just like any printing company. What really matters is what they are reliable sources for. Something that's completely off-the-wall, like the journal discussed in the section about has absolutely no scientific weight, despite Levine's protestations, but it is quite acceptable to cite it for certain types of beliefs, whereas a mainstream text-book is a fairly authoritative source on its topic. Levine's contention is that any mention of a plant in a book on homeopathy is sufficient to warrant a mention for that substance, which is obviously unsound. Jefffire (talk) 14:17, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

This sounds more like a WP:UNDUE issue than a WP:RS issue. The article has a rather large section on uses so I don't think a singel sentence about it being used in homeopathy would be undue weight. // Liftarn (talk)

It's quite acceptable to have a mention, provided it's properly sourced to establish notability. Jefffire (talk) 14:17, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Notability does not apply to citations. The bar that you are setting is unnecessarily high. If a Lancet article mentions that nightshades as a starting material for a remedy, you find it unacceptable. This is about uses not plant nomenclature. Is even the Homeopathic Pharmacopeia acceptable to you. Anthon01 (talk) 15:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

You misunderstand, we are talking about citations which establish notability. If an article in nature says that homeopathy uses plant x, then that would be a fairly good citation for demonstrating that the statement is accurate. However, it would not establish that it had any real importance to the subject, which is the entire point of the discussion. Do you understand? Jefffire (talk) 18:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, notability does not dictate content within an article. See WP:NNC. The point of this discussion is to establish if the sources we have are reliable enough to include mention of deadly nightshade's homeopathic use in the deadly nightshade article. User WJhonson believes that they are... especially if we quote directly from the source and attribute the statement to the source... especially with regards to the Oxford book; however, he/she notes that the authoritative homeopathic sources would be good enough... especially if we quote directly from the source and attribute the statement to the source.

The point of this discussion was not to discuss WP:UNDUE; however that has been a fortunate result. It seems that even you, Jefffire, agree that it is acceptable to mention briefly (in a single sentence).

So it looks as though we have an answer here (at least for the Deadly Nightshade article). I am not going to jump the gun and assume that this applies to the inclusion of homeopathic information for all plant articles. I think we should all take it on a case-by-case basis at first and see if some kind of precedent can be set. Agreed? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 18:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Provided you cite it from a non-homeopathic source, yes. Jefffire (talk) 18:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect. As this noticeboard has assessed, while the Oxford book - a non-homeopathic source - would provide an excellent reliable source, an authoritative homeopathic source would also work... especially if we quote and attribute the source. However, given that we have the Oxford source, I am inclined to go with that, since it seems less contentious with you. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 19:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

No, the notice board assessed that a homeopathic source would do simply to verify a claim of homeopaths, it didn't address the undue weight issue (they could not, since you took this to the wrong board). Since there is a non-homeopathic source at the ready, why not use that instead of all the drama? Jefffire (talk) 19:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. No one disputes that deadly nightshade can be used by some homeopaths. But then, almost anything can be used by some homeopaths. The issue is not one of reliable sources at all. Perhaps another example, away from the possible contention of this issue, will help. My 1 year old reads the Maisy series. In the book Happy Birthday Maisy, Cyril quite clearly gives a trumpet to Maisy as a birthday present. Maisy plays the trumpet, creating the sound tooty toot. The trumpet is an important feature of the book, and is significant in Maisy's life. An article on Maisy could even include the fact that she enjoyed playing the trumpet she was given for her birthday - and we could reference a reliable source for this, namely the book where it happens. However, I suggest that we should not mention this in the trumpet article, even though it is true and reliably sourced, because it is not important to trumpets. Similarly, deadly nightshade may be important in homeopathy, but this does not mean homeopathy is important to deadly nightshade. If a reliable source on trumpets said that Maisy's use was important we could include it in the trumpet article, but we cannot on the strength of a Maisy book saying that trumpets are important to Maisy. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent) I'd like to thank everyone for their comments. I feel this discussion so far has been very productive. I suggest we continue it at the Talk page of NPOV to solicit more input since we've addressed the reliable source issue and the remaining issue would be either undue weight or consensus. Wjhonson (talk) 19:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Wjhonson and everyone else for their input! -- Levine2112 ^discuss 20:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I concur. It's good to know this page is available as a neutral resource on any topic! Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

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