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WPFF Talk

Housekeeping

; Archives
	6 July 2005 - 7 July 2005; 8 July 2005 - 25 July 2005; 26 July 2005 - 6 September 2005; 7 September 2005 - 30 November 2005; 1 December 2005 - 12 January 2006; 12 January 2006 - 5 February 2006; 6 February 2006 - 21 March 2006; 21 March 2006 - 11 April 2006; 11 April 2006 - 18 May 2006; 18 May 2006 - 31 July 2006; 1 August 2006 - 25 August 2006; 26 August 2006 - 19 September 2006;

Clean-up Suggestions

I'm assigning a few tasks to keep the articles under the project umbrella nice and tidy. Several of you practice these on a regular basis, but since it's difficult to keep watch on every single article, please take initiative and fix these problems as they cross your path. ~ Hibana 17:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Minor tasks

Removal of second person pronouns, such as "you" and "your" and replacement with proper syntax like "the player".
Decapitalization of words such as chocobo, moogle, and esper, as they do not appear capitalized within the games except when they are part of a formal title, such as "Chocobo Ranch".
Expansion of abbreviations, especially RPG to computer role-playing game or console role-playing game, and FF to Final Fantasy.
Italicization of game and film titles.
Instances of "Square-Enix" with a hyphen should be corrected as Square Enix; although the official website contains the hyphen for HTML purposes, the company's title contains a space.
Remove weasel statements such as "It may be the most widely distributed video game franchise of all time" that have no citing.

Redirects

Redirects have become rampant in these past few months. Many of them are a result of major merges, such as Summon magic (Final Fantasy) into Final Fantasy magic and Compilation of Final Fantasy VII into Final Fantasy VII. These should be fixed and pinpointed (i.e. [[Final Fantasy magic#Summon magic|summon magic]]) where appropriate. Some of them may not be as obvious, and may require disambiguation. Sephiroth is frequently wiki'd in place of Sephiroth (Final Fantasy VII) even though it links to a disambiguation page. Be sure to check all articles containing these redirects using the "What links here" option.

Main Final Fantasy article

What should be the flagship article of this entire project is in dire need or some organization and serious need of citation. I know pretty much everyone's started back to school and busy as ever, but try to lend a hand if you get time. We've focused on our favorite games, gotten many featured, and watch over them like hawks, but this article needs help. ~ Hibana 02:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Categories for deletion

Community

October roll call

Well, Wikipedia:WikiProject Square Enix is underway. Regardless of whether or not this project gets merged with it, we have lots of Final Fantasy games coming out this month in NA and PAL territories. Let's keep our articles up to date!

Hibana - Been pretty busy with school, still hoping to complete a major cleanup sometime soon. 00:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
— Deckill e r 02:50, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} - Present and accounted^? for.
PresN here! 15:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Sir Crazyswordsman Final Fantasy IV is still sitting at FAC. And a lot of people still haven't shown up yet. 17:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Renmiri 04:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC) Still here mostly on "page patrol". Helping with Link / Zelda FARC. Will chime in FFIV soon.
wwwwolf (barks/growls) 08:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC) Kind of busy with other tasks right now, but I try to help if needed.
Finduilas 09
Grant the Wise
RaCha'ar I'm sort of back after a large and arduous move. Won't be back full-time for another couple of weeks. -RaCha'ar 15:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
GrimRepr39 I'm here, but I have had so much homework and no time for wikipedia.GrimRepr39 17:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Rabid Behemoth 21:36, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
--JiFish(^Talk/_Contrib) lives
Mir l e n 03:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Choogle

Good Article Collaboration of the Week

The current Good article Collaboration of the Week is

Elvis Presley:

Elvis Aaron Presley began his career as one of the first performers of rockabilly, an uptempo fusion of country and rhythm and blues with a strong back beat. His novel versions of existing songs, mixing "black" and "white" sounds, made him popular—and controversial—as did his uninhibited stage and television performances. He recorded songs in the rock and roll genre, with tracks like "Hound Dog" and "Jailhouse Rock" later embodying the style. Presley had a versatile voice and had unusually wide success encompassing other genres, including gospel, blues, ballads and pop. To date, he is the only performer to have been inducted into four separate music halls of fame.

Please help to improve this article to the highest of standards.

--ZeWrestler ^Talk 00:39, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Issues

Wikipedia:WikiProject Square Enix

As I've already told Hibana, the Dragon Quest articles are in a sorry state. I'm pushing to organize a project to help establish guidelines within these articles, provide badly needed inertia for the editing of the articles, and create a home for discussion that isn't as crowded as the WikiProject Computer and video games. I believe that with well over 30 articles (and more that need to be created), a WikiProject is justified. Hibana mentioned at some point merging these two under one big Square Enix project, and I like the idea. For now, though, I'd encourage any and all of you to sign up at the temporary WikiProject Dragon Quest page and sign your name at list of proposed projects. With at least five members, I'll go ahead and create an actual project out of it; I'd appreciate signups, especially from you guys, since everyone at the FFWikiProject has proven themselves more than competent for editing articles. :) --Tristam 17:10, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I know nothing of Dragon Quest, but I have thought about the idea of changing WikiProject Final Fantasy to Wikipedia:WikiProject Square Enix, as articles related to the Chrono series are on par with our articles (ALL articles about Chrono games are either GA or FA). Sir Crazyswordsman 22:53, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I haven't played any DQ before but I'd be happy to help. Personally, I really like the idea of a WP:Square Enix. Axem Titanium 23:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your replies and support guys. Now that I think about it more and more, I like the idea of a WikiProject Square Enix (of course, this would merge into such a project) rather than a WikiProject Dragon Quest. Sure, it'd be quite a hefty number of articles, but who's to say we can't handle it. We'd just have to decide on the logo that represents our work in templates; we could fight over Chocobos and Slimes or use the more plain red and black "E." :-) More input would be appreciated, but I'd like to hear what Hibana has to say about this since we already discussed it. --Tristam 03:28, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Plus, changing the Project to a Square Enix one will satisfy the Kingdom Hearts fans, which is also good. -Saturn Yoshi ^{THE VOICES} 03:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but more importantly the Chrono fans such as myself. :) Sir Crazyswordsman 04:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I also like the idea of a WikiProject Square Enix. I think all of us are familiar with at least two of the following franchises: Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Kingdom Hearts, Chrono series. Combining the expertise and interests could only serve to improve things across the four franchises, I would think, and, perhaps, serve to help some of the standalone titles from the company. Ryu Kaze 16:28, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It sounds very practical, and wouldn't necessarily mean the end of WikiProject Final Fantasy as a concentration of Final Fantasy either. It could be set up in hierarchal form similar to WikiProject Nintendo.

This just sounds better and better. I'm not sure how the subprojects would work out exactly, but it's a good thought! --Tristam 22:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Now that's something can agree on :) Renmiri 22:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for changing WP:FF to WP:SE. That would include all Square games, Enix games, and Square Enix games, right? --PresN 16:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes. So, show of hands, is there anyone actually opposed to this adjustment? Axem Titanium 21:22, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Because this is such as major undertaking, and the project would be of greater scope than either the FF or DQ projects, we should probably bring it up on the main CVG Project talk page for more opinions. ~ Hibana 22:13, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, Hibana. I don't see that it would encounter much resistance though. As far as scope goes (as PresN asked), this would include all games developed and/or published by Square, Enix, and Square Enix. Of course, there would be plenty of miscellaneous pages (e.g., the Dragon Warrior TV show) as well. But I think this idea is perfect. As for the image of a WikiProject Square Enix, would it be copyvio if one of us created a red and black "E" in the same exact style as the "E" in the Square Enix logo (basically, a few black rectangles and a red one)? --Tristam 23:12, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

If we are to create a logo, I think it should be some sort of crest bearing the symbols that represent two major franchises from each company: For Square, we'd have a Crystal for FF and a Pendilum for Chrono, and from Enix we'd have whatever the symbols for Dragon Quest and Star Ocean are. They wouldn't be copyvio if we created it ourselves from scratch. Sir Crazyswordsman 06:25, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest using the two most well known franchises - perhaps the crystal for Final Fantasy and the slime for Dragon Quest - along with a black "S" and a red-and-black "E" in a four-square pattern, or something similar. We already have both symbols in their respective project boxes. ~ Hibana 15:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I am all for a SquareEnix project. Great idea, and keep up the good work! Altair 15:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

As far as the logo goes, I do have the Slime for Dragon Quest that I created from scratch. I'm still in favor of simply using the "E" as the logo, but mascots would admittedly add a certain flavor. The problem is that if we go overboard, it will look messy (space limitations, anyone?) and there will be argument as to what exactly the most representative secondary franchises are (there really is no argument that Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest are the top two). Although I consider Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross among the greatest games of all time (and have never played Kingdom Hearts), there's definitely room to argue that Kingdom Hearts has surpassed the Chrono series in general popularity, although it doesn't claim the same historical roots that the Chrono series does.

To continue with Hibana's four-square pattern, the obvious placements would be the "S" in the upper left square, the "E" in the bottom right, with the crystal and Slime randomly filling the other two. I have, however, done my own experimenting with a type of crest and the results haven't been very pretty. --Tristam 19:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

A chocobo in place of the crystal perhaps? It would go with the "mascot" theme of the slime for Enix. Axem Titanium 21:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Seeing as how many users are advocating for a Square Enix project, I decided to be bold and create WikiProject Square Enix. As for the idea of merging WikiProject Final Fantasy to WikiProject Square Enix, I suggest they stay separate, like how WikiProject Nintendo is separate from WikiProject Pokemon, WikiProject Legend of Zelda, and WikiProject Nintendo Wars. BTW, currently the project is using this logo:

So... any comments or suggestions?--TBCTaLk?!? 21:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Note that when I made the logo I didn't include any mascots due to possible fair use violations and size issues. Also, I wasn't fond of the chocobo/crystal idea, since (in my opinion) series like Chrono, Space Invaders, Bubble Bobble, Full Metal Alchemist, Star Ocean, Sword of Mana, and Kingdom of Hearts are as equally representative of Square Enix as both Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest.--TBCTaLk?!? 21:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

First of all, thanks for getting the new project going. I think I'll join soon. Excluding mascots is good, considering the recent discussion about the Black Mage (see above). However, the proposed WPSE logo copies elements directly from the official Square Enix logo (the shape of the S, and all of the E), which is copyrighted. Even if it's not an exact copy, this discussion comes to mind: Wikipedia talk:Copyright problems#Reproduce a Trademark/Coprighted Image ok?. Maybe we should find something better to avoid future problems. - Fx21 22:58, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd also like to say thanks for getting the project off of the ground. I like your style with the logo, but I can't say I know if it's copyvio if we reproduce our own "S" and/or "E." So basically, WikiProject Final Fantasy stays on as a subproject of WikiProject Square Enix? Is there any indicator of that other than the fact that it says so on the WikiProject Square Enix's page? --Tristam 00:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I've changed the image so that it now uses a different font.--TBCTaLk?!? 05:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I support merging WP:FF into WP:SE, rather than being a subproject, though I'm not too hung up on it. --PresN 19:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed with PresN. That way the people at WPCVG will calm down about all the subprojects as well. --Tristam 19:53, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Same, otherwise, WP:SE would just become a dump for non-FF discussion and be practically deserted. Axem Titanium 02:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Then again, simply renaming the FF project as such while including the other franchises wouldn't change much. There are a few people who work specifically on the Chrono, Seiken Densetsu, and Kingdom Hearts, and I think it would be best to try and recruit them to actively participate in the SE project. ~ Hibana 15:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I do Chrono. Sir Crazyswordsman 16:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

So we're just moving this project into WP:SE? Axem Titanium 17:26, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Yay, if we basically rename this project WPSE, I might get some backup on Xenogears in the near future ^^— Deckill e r 18:00, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I can help with Full Metal Alchemist a bit. Images for sure, I have the series on DVD. Renmiri 00:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm definitely for merging this project into WikiProject SE. The work on FF is what brings most of us together, and if we're going to create a WikiProject SE and really mean for it to do what it says, we should make sure we use it as the main gathering center. If need be, we can branch it later, but in getting started, I don't think there should be any branches. Severing it before it ever got off the ground would be counterproductive, I think. Ryu Kaze 02:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Sooooo.....Is anyone actually going to do this? Since WP:SE exists, we need an admin to delete that page, then move WP:FF to there, we can reword the main page after that. 'Least, that's how I think it should get done. --PresN 05:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Nobuo Uematsu Interview

Very cool interview form a german pop site, translated by the guys at FF Extreme. Tons of "citation rich" tidbits such as the one I just added to FF Music, FFVI [1]

Link (Legend of Zelda)

Someone please help, all the work I have done on Link (Legend of Zelda) has been reverted and I don't want to break to 3 revert rule, so someone please stop them from reverting everything I did. Judgesurreal777 03:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Err... shouldn't you discuss this at WP:CVG or WP:ZELDA?--TBCTaLk?!? 05:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems the matter was taken care off. Renmiri 00:37, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, situation cleared up. I thought to ask here because people know me here :) Judgesurreal777 00:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Yuna

I don't understand why a video game character takes precedence over a large number of other uses (listed at Yuna (disambiguation)). I propose moving the article to Yuna (Final Fantasy), per precedent for Pauline (Nintendo) and King Bowser. I would be bold do it myeslf, but I don't want to incur divine wrath (i.e. spoiler tags question), so I thought I'd ask you guys. Hbdragon88 08:23, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll be happy to hit anyone who objects with a cluestick, unless the other uses are really obscure. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, take a look at the other ones. Galaxy Fraulein Yuna has its own name and it doesn't seem too notable. Yuna River is a one-line stub. Hibiscus tiliaceus (which redirects to Hau (tree)) is a technical name which only translates to Yuna in one language. The only possibly notable other use would be Yuna Ito, but naming conventions dictate the inclusion of her last name. With Pauline and Bowser, there are plenty of more notable uses which would impress the need to have them not be the main page but that doesn't really apply here. Axem Titanium 19:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Article length shouldn't be an issue here - many CVG users argued that Bowser (tanker) was a two-paragraph stub while the Nintendo character was a nice long article. JzG countered that it was due to systematic bias because there were more CVG editors than Bowser tanker editors. Hbdragon88 19:41, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Is "what links here" considered a factor? I count 107 pages linking to Yuna. Even discounting the userspace links, that's a significant number. --Roninbk _{t c #} 04:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so. At least, for JzG he used AWB or soemthing and went around fixing all of the Bowser links - twice, once for Bowser (Nintendo) and again for King Bowser Hbdragon88 05:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, the Google test is lame, but Googling in English turns up Yuna Ito and Galaxy Fraulein Yuna in the first page, and Googling in Japanese gets nothing even vaguely related to FFX in the first page. I realize this is en.wiki, but Yuna is apparently a common name and common word in Japanese, so I'm not entirely happy with a video game character sitting in the prime spot. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Mario holds the prime spot and he's a video game character. Frankly, I don't really care either way but I think that Yuna the character is probably the most prevalent usage of the word in the English speaking world. Axem Titanium 20:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Mario is...Mario. Yuna isn't exactly mentioned in the same breath as Mickey Mouse. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but if someone was searching for the other Yunas, they wouldn't type in just "Yuna?" Sir Crazyswordsman 03:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Which is what we're trying to get at. As Yuna isn't the most prevalent usage, we want to move Yuna to Yuna (Final Fantasy), so people looking for other Yuna uses will go to a disambiguation page, instead of having to go to the FF page and click the (disambiguation) link. Hbdragon88 05:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's one click versus two clicks. If we want to be that considerate to the decidedly few number of people who are searching for other Yunas, we can be. I don't think anyone will get arthritis from clicking an extra link. Axem Titanium 17:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

As I haven't read a real good reason why not to move the page (besdies a concern over "what links here," a generalized statement about Yuna's popularity, and a sarcastic comment) , I think I'll be moving it...I'll leave AMIB To whack anybody who opposes with a cluestick. Hbdragon88 05:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't say Yuna's that popular anyway. Most people I speak to speak to, including myself, like Rydia a helluva lot more. Sir Crazyswordsman 15:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Kefka split proposal AGAIN

Just a heads up; a redname slapped {{splitsection}} on List of Final Fantasy VI characters again. I'll give you three guesses on which character (and don't mind the section title ¬_¬). Someone want to explain to them why it isn't happening? I took care of the tag. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:26, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Nice job nipping that one in the bud. It has been discussed at length, especially at Talk:Kefka Palazzo and when all the playable characters were at risk for merging. I was the one who requested page protection all those months ago because it kept getting reverted back into article form. One question though AMIB, why do you want to merge in Gogo (Final Fantasy)? I mean he is playable, quite popular, and does appear in more than one game, albeit as a boss villain in Final Fantasy V. ~ Hibana 14:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Gogo is already merged into a generic article. Personally, I think Kefka should have his own article (at least more than Seymour...), but I know consensus is against me so I don't make it. If we are to merge player character articles, we shouldn't just do it by game. We should do it by importance to the game. For example, I'd consider keeping at least two characters from each non-job system game, preferably the main character and one who contributes a lot to the story. FFVII should keep all player characters regardless due to Square's insistance on making crap sequels. But let's not go on a merge crusade right now. Sir Crazyswordsman 15:46, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

To be frank, I just want to redirect Gogo (Final Fantasy); there's nothing in that article that isn't already in that list, and I strongly doubt that third-party commentary in reliable sources is going to crawl out of the woodwork for a hidden character with no backstory. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I see. The same could probably be said for Umaro, who has no controversial connection to a real-life politician. :) ~ Hibana 00:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, that "controversy" is one of those forum-only phenomena anyway. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, remember the Gogo/Adlai Stevenson controversey? That actually got mainstream press coverage! (Well, it did, but the articles I found on it may have gotten deleted). I do remember seeing them though. Sir Crazyswordsman 03:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

improving the list

I'm curious what it would take to improve List of Final Fantasy VI characters to Featured list status?--ZeWrestler ^Talk 18:05, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

References. And lots of them. And probably some more pics of the characters we don't have yet. Sir Crazyswordsman 18:53, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

References and a ton less plot summary. No need to list ?????, every single minor Returner, every single minor Esper, and other junk. Adding more fair-use images (there are already too many) won't help. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:05, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Problem is, for characters who don't have their own article (Kefka namely), they need the full summary as they won't have their own article for an expanded summary. All encyclopedic info needs to be in there. Sir Crazyswordsman 17:22, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The problem lies with defining "encyclopedic." How encyclopedic is a summary of the ghost's powers, advice for getting Shadow in the World of Ruin, or even an analysis of Locke's tearful past? I'm for removing all character pages and even character lists and location lists (including those I have created); this is why the CVG project gets such a bad name when it comes to cruft. I think that coverage of the individual games is sufficient. However, I realize that this is a wildly unpopular view so I would not, of course, act on it. The notability guidelines at WP:CVG are way too vague, and it's disheartening to see one-sentence stubs of "Superstar Baseball '99" or "List of weapons in [game]." I wish that the guidelines were in place so that I myself would know what and what not to create or delete; I look back on many of the articles I created with shame. --Tristam 23:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree a bit; character lists and even location lists can be made into encyclopedic megaarticles. It isn't final fantasy that gives CVG a bad name. — Deckill e r 23:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd also like to reiterate to AMIB's point about fair-use images; character lists are simply littered with them. I understand that all of these images will inherently be fair use, as game screenshots are, but images of Biggs, Wedge, Jesse, or Elmyra Gainsborough aren't really necessary as far as I can tell. EDIT: To supplement my argument, I'll copy and paste a post of mine from the WP:Zelda series:

"I think many of the articles that form the WP:Zelda series should be merged into their respective lists: Gossip Stone, Rupee, nearly all of the enemies (just take a look at Keese), most of the places/locations, Great Fairy, Agahnim, Onox, Twinrova, Vaati, Veran, and probably a few others. The lists, perhaps, can be made encyclopedic (although they can stand to remove characters GameFAQs guides might even neglect to mention), but I can't see justification for many of these individual articles. There's also the added benefit of making the templates less choad-like. I don't know how the rest of you feel regarding the inclusion of character analyses or location lists, but I think that WP:Zelda would be better represented by a smaller set of outstanding articles than a slew of trivial articles plastered with merge or cite tags (unfortunately, that's become the norm for WP:CVG)." --Tristam 00:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC).

Frankly, if the likes Belgemine, Shelinda, and Luzzu are allowed to have an image, I think the likes of Arvis and Duncan should be allowed one as well. Also, I'd like to consider turning the section on minor characters into a headerless list with short descriptions. Sir Crazyswordsman 03:41, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

That's the thing: Belgemine, Shelinda, and Luzzu more than likely should not have images based on fair use. --Tristam 04:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Backstory of Final Fantasy VII

Midgar, AVALANCHE, Materia the FF7 term list, and the FF7 timeline belong in a single article similar to Spira (Final Fantasy X)....perhaps Backstory of Final Fantasy VII or something like that. This needs to be done :) I'd be willing to help. — Deckill e r 23:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps Terminology of Final Fantasy VII would be better, as to be similar to my Terminology of Final Fantasy VI, which I have been slacking on lately. Sir Crazyswordsman 04:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, that might work. Something to compress the cruft into an GA-worthy overview. — Deckill e r 05:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of GA, how come most of the current work on my article is being done by non-WPFF/WPSE regulars? I personally think the FFVI version of this article (which has existed since April) needs to be brought up to GA standards. I'd like some ideas for additional material. Sir Crazyswordsman 16:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm kind of leery on this one, although I realize it's making me more exclusionist than the most heavily mergist video game Wikiproject. ¬_¬ How much coverage of Final Fantasy VII's story do we need? I realize there's a lot of detail there, but we've got 39K in Final Fantasy VII plus whatever's in the articles for the individual spinoffs. At what point do we just leave the games to speak for themselves? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The point of this is to compress all those articles that would easily survive AfD anyway into one succinct article. — Deckill e r 18:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I guess they'd pass AFD, I just don't see the great value in having separate articles also describing the plot of FFVII, be it a half-dozen or just one. Forced to choose between those, though, I'd choose the latter. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:52, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Compromise was the basis behind the idea. — Deckill e r 01:36, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

For the sake of argument, compromise between what and what? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I suppose he means compromise between not having this stuff at all and having a million articles about them. Personally, I like the idea of either shoving it all into one easily manageable article or having it completely gone. Axem Titanium 02:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I was trying to make the point that we already have a compromise; that we cover fictional subjects and plot summary as support for real-world content. I don't see how Backstory of Final Fantasy VII could be anything but plot summary/description of a fictional world. That said, I'm not going to oppose the merge (it's better than the status quo), simply question whether it's the best solution. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

That said, you're probably right. It would be difficult to justify an article like that considering the requirements at WP:FICT about needing to have outside references and not be entirely in-universe (even though it would be easier to justify than the myriad articles that currently exist). On the other hand, I don't really know of a better way to quell the inclusionist camps who demand these articles' existence. Axem Titanium 03:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

It would probably be no different than Spira (Final Fantasy X), which is a good article. Plus, FF7 probably has more out of universe material (since it's so "popular"), so it can include even more out of universe issues than Spira. The key is not to just throw the information in; it's to refine it into a description and out of universe analysis of the setting elements of FFVII, since complete comprehensiveness can't be attained on the main page (not to mention a compromise between 80 articles and one). The merge is our best option regardless, since we can look at this article when it's all said and done and see if there is a way to compress it into the main article (doubtful, but possible). It's merely a step in the right (or perhaps only available) direction - we should do what we can and not overshoot. — Deckill e r 03:24, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

As usual, you're right. Even if a merge is less than ideal (still an open question, and I know I'm falling into the trap of thinking about the article I'm worried about rather than the article we're likely to end up with), it's the most practical solution at this point. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:36, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

On a related note, I should probably bring up Terminology of Final Fantasy VI

I won't be able to this week or next, due to heavy exams and lab report loads, but the week after I plan to turn my attention back to this article, which I wrote earlier this year. My first plan will be to submit it for a peer review for purposes of getting new ideas, then expand the article, then get a formatting peer review, and finally, submit it to GA. Sir Crazyswordsman 05:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Gameplay of Final Fantasy

I suggest we merge the airship list (much, much compressed - perhaps into two paragraphs and one or two sample images of final fantasy airships), item article (slightly compressed). armor/weapons lists (not used as lists; instead, a few paragraphs describing the systems and their evolution, with some examples cited (I.E. buster sword, pinwheel) for sourced analysis), a brief section on magic with a main article template, sections on classes, etc (main templates). In essense, we will axe the potentially endless lists of armor and weapons into sections on this page, merge the item page into this article, and so on. I think it's possible, and a great way to take the project to the next level. — Deckill e r 00:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I could hug you Deckiller. --Tristam 00:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

^_^. I'm starting a skeleton at User:Deckiller/Gameplay of Final Fantasy. — Deckill e r 00:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Awww, gwoup hug!!! --Roninbk _{t c #} 00:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I think this could be one of the final steps to insuring that the FF WikiProject provides the most encyclopedic approach to fiction outside of the Doctor Who wikiproject :) — Deckill e r 00:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

What ? What are they doing that we don't ? I refuse to be second banana! ;-) (j/k). I can get some great shots of all FFX and X2 ships and weapons, in any position [2] , [3]. Even better than my DVD ones. I just hope extracting them from the game DVD is fair use! Renmiri 04:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think how you get an image is what qualifies or disqualifies an image as Fair Use, except when you get it from the internet (netiquette law means taking images from fansites without sourcing them makes you enemies very quickly), but more how you use it. Sir Crazyswordsman 05:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, we don't want this to turn into a huge list project. Really, we can summarize travel in final fantasy in 5 paragraphs: 2-3 on airships, 1 on chocobos, and 1-2 on others. As for weapons, I'd say 3 paragraphs would probably be enough to provide a succinct overview. Sure, we'd have no more huge lists of all the weapons, but Cloud's weapons should be described in more depth on his page, if at all. — Deckill e r 05:38, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Just FYI, Square Enix, and many other companies, make sometimes extra Weapons and other stuff, but they delete it in the full game and only the data is left on the disk. On the FFX disk there is a Buster sword for Tidus, but I believe getting it in the game is impossible. Renmiri 15:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

But remember, the Buster Sword isn't an FF invention. It appeared at least as early as Lufia 2. Sir Crazyswordsman 06:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

One of my requested articles in the WP:SE To-Do list was Crystal (Final Fantasy). Perhaps this should included in this article as well. ~ Hibana 15:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy magic?

It might be difficult to compress this enough into a 5 paragraph section on the gameplay article; perhaps we should have a main template and provide a brief summary on the gameplay page instead? — Deckill e r 03:39, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Seems like that page is listy and trivial enough that it can be manageable and prosified into the Gameplay article. --Tristam 01:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if I'd call it "trivial", as it encompasses over 20 works (thus, it has to be wordy to describe the progression and whatnot). We'll see how it turns out. — Deckill e r 01:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I honestly don't see how we can compress all of this. Why don't we just leave things the way they are? They're fine enough as is (ie not stubby, and provide basically a general overview of everything). Our goal shouldn't be "how few articles can we write?" Frankly, we shouldn't be trying to cut down on encyclopedic material just to merge something. I am a mergist, but mergism for mergism's sake is not the way to be a mergist. Sir Crazyswordsman 01:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the items, weapons, armor, and airships pages can probably be easily compressed, but the magic page will have to stay IMO (and, of course, the class list and so on). — Deckill e r 02:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Enemies section?

What do you guys think about this? Is it really necessary to devote a section to enemies, since everything that needs to be said about them can be summed up in the basics section? — Deckill e r 03:39, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at...

Hank Hill. ^_^. — Deckill e r 05:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Ugh. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:11, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
- Also, someone just split hojo and zack into articles...— Deckill e r 05:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Straw Poll

To try to get a clear consensus, should this project be merged into WikiProject Square Enix? Or should it stay as a sub-project? Support is merge, oppose is, well, not merge. Discussion heavily encouraged.

Support

I support merging. I always saw WP:SE as just taking this project and expanding it, so I don't see the point of having 2 seperate projects. --PresN 04:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Honestly, I've pretty much transferred my membership to WP:SE anyways, --Roninbk _{t c e #} 07:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the members have grown enough as Wikipedians to take on the added reponsibility. — Deckill e r 13:27, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Support merging. --Tristam 18:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Support merge. Considerable discussion seems to indicate that either this or WPFF would be deleted because the subproject is too limited in scope and personally, I'd prefer it to be WPFF be deleted since WPSE is a broader but manageable project. Axem Titanium 01:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, that I oppose. WTF ? Why delete one of the most sucessfull WPCVG projects ? WPFF should still exist as history. And we should accomodate Ra'Chaar and others who want a quick way to focus on FF or other areas. Perhaps separate "to do" lists ? Renmiri 11:58, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
And pardom my french but who the smurf are those guys ? I don't remember seeing most of them helping when we had peer reviews, articles up for GA and FA, edit battles... Now they come and say we have tons of FA and tell us merge this or that ? Why do we even have to listen to them ? Renmiri 11:58, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps delete isn't the best word to use here and I apologize for the word choice. I meant that this move agrees with the sentiment felt at WP:CVG (not that I care) to have fewer but more active subprojects. Of course the WP:FF page isn't going to be deleted, it's just that all activity there would be transferred here. Axem Titanium 14:26, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Support merger. Not too much more responsability, we are a great team :) Judgesurreal777 01:10, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Support merger. This great team is ready for more IMHO. Renmiri 11:46, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Guh. I don't think I even need to say why. Sir Crazyswordsman 04:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
For the reasons I've mentioned before:
- 1) most of us are familiar with at least one big name SE franchise in addition to Final Fantasy (whether it be Dragon Quest or Kingdom Hearts), so it could help articles for each to have some cross-trafficking going on
- 2) it could only help those SE articles not related to the big name franchises by giving them a little more exposure to capable editors; it certainly wouldn't hurt them (this is also true of any mini franchises like the Chrono series, but that one has its own group of dedicated editors already)
- 3) if we're going to make an actual effort with the SE WikiProject, it only makes sense to make it our gathering center
- 4) Final Fantasy articles have been what brings most of us together as a group, so it's not going to help WikiProject SE to keep its core crowd displaced, and — as an extension of this point —
- 5) it seems to me like it would be counterproductive to the SE project to sever it from WikiProject FF right from the beginning; if it needs to be branched later, branch it later, but at least give it a chance to work before any decision like that is made. Ryu Kaze 17:41, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Support merger. Most of the time, we're moreso RPG fans than just FF lovers, and SE is responsible for a gaggle of these games. Also, like almost half the main Final Fantasy game articles are featured these days; we've already made major strides here. Let's expand our horizons ~~to Super Mario RPG.~~ --Zeality 17:10, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

Opposing on the minority basis that not all FF fans are SE fans, myself included. I don't personally want to have to wade through a lot of SE-related stuff to do work on FF games, which is all I came here for. I don't entirely understand why this project can't exist as well as the SE project; seems to me there's a lot of FF-specific work to be done that might overtake the SE project page anyway. -RaCha'ar 12:58, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Per RaCha'ar I'm not a SE fan of many other games. Therefore, I would prefer the speficied attention of the FF project. --ZeWrestler ^Talk 16:01, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- Hey Deck ? Can't we use Subpages in this namespace ? This way we would be able to accomodate those who want a separate FF action page and still have the projects merged.. Renmiri 17:00, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
  - We can basically turn final fantasy into a "subproject", like our current character class subprojects and all. — Deckill e r 12:25, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
  - Thus, we can do stuff like WikiProject Square Enix/Final Fantasy/todo or WikiProject Square Enix/Dragon Quest/todo, and so on if such huge amounts of suborganization are needed (it's quite possible with some of the larger series). — Deckill e r 12:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
    - Thanks, that sounds great. I appreciate my opinion being taken into account. :) -RaCha'ar 03:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
  - ZeWrestler- what are your thoughts on setting up subpages at WP:SE, such as WP:SE/Final Fantasy or WP:SE/Dragon Quest? --PresN 13:57, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy Logo

Doesn't the fair old logo of our beloved game series deserve a paragraph; no I am specifically saying that i needs a paragraph in the main article. I believe a small section should be dedicated because of how recognisable the logo and typset is and how each game's, for lack of a better word, monogram weaves in and out of it. As well as explaining how the monogram relates to an element of the plot.--Squall1991 10:14, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- No, sorry. It's a logo. With the same font. That has a different Amano art for each game. Sir Crazyswordsman 05:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
- I reckon that that line would do--Squall1991 11:51, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Job System

I happened to stumble along this 4 line article the other day. Anyone have any ideas what to do with it? -- Steel 11:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Suggest merge/redirect to Final Fantasy character classes. See also: SubProject: Jobs. — CuaHL ☺ 14:29, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Final Fantasy IV update

We're featured now. Special thanks to all who helped out! Sir Crazyswordsman 17:22, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations. Sorry I wasn't able to help with that effort beyond supporting in FAC. Ryu Kaze 17:27, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Ryu. Sir Crazyswordsman 17:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Muy bien ^_^ — Deckill e r 18:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks Deck. Sir Crazyswordsman 21:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Hurrayyyyyy!!!! Judgesurreal777 02:49, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

- Well done CSM and team! Renmiri 18:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys. Sir Crazyswordsman 20:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Project Directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council is currently in the process of developing a master directory of the existing WikiProjects to replace and update the existing Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. These WikiProjects are of vital importance in helping wikipedia achieve its goal of becoming truly encyclopedic. Please review the following pages:

User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory,
User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory 2,
User:Badbilltucker/Philosophy and religion Directory,
User:Badbilltucker/Sports Directory,
User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory,
User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory/United States, (note: This page will be retitled to more accurately reflect its contents)
User:Badbilltucker/History and society directory, and
User:Badbilltucker/Science directory

and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope to have the existing directory replaced by the updated and corrected version of the directory above by November 1. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 21:18, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if you tried to update it before, and the corrections were gone. I have now put the new draft in the old directory pages, so the links should work better. My apologies for any confusion this may have caused you. B2T2 00:04, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Black Mage "logo" about to be deleted

Image:Black mage.svg, used extensively for the Final Fantasy WikiProject, is currently waiting to be deleted as soon as it is replaced/delinked. Although the license tag claims that is released under the GFDL, this claim has been made in error; to quote from commons:Commons:Derivative works:

Nothing you'll ever do, whether you draw Pikachu with your own crayons or sculpt a giant Sailor Moon figurine, will ever lead to the point where you magically turn copyrighted material into "free" material.

As an infinitely high-resolution image, the SVG cannot ever qualify for "fair use"; please create a .PNG replacement (a direct rendering from the Wikmedia servers, eg. [4]) at a suitable resolution and replace all usages. You have 7 days before the SVG is deleted. Thanks, [ælfəks] 02:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to notice that only the stub template, out of all of the templates used in WP:FF, used that image. It's been fixed now. I beleive that FX21's userbox is the only thing still linking to it. --PresN 18:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed; also, I found that quote to be insulting, but you didn't start the quote, so I don't have any bones to pick. — Deckill e r 02:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

PresN, it is often quite difficult to tell that hundreds of uses of an image are resulting from a template; be grateful that I actually notified people that it was going to be deleted before there were dozens of redlinks everywhere. As for the quote I included, Deckiller - about turning copyrighted material into "free" material - if you're insulted by that, I suggest you go and read up on copyright law and how it applies to derivative works. Regards, [ælfəks] 15:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

POV and original research

Currently, the articles of two of the most controversial characters in FF history, Tifa Lockhart and Aerith Gainsborough (aside from that both need a OOU-perspective rehaul), contain original research and POV. While a brief glimpse of both articles give the illusion that proper citations automatically equals NPOV, on a more in-depth look, it's quite untrue. Most of the statements on the Love sections contain unpublished analysis only "supported" by official texts or statements that do not really offer a confirmed analysis of Square-Enix.

In short, this is what Wikipedia calls "Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position":

Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research.

The MotP novella analysis (while it's well-written and sounds reasonable; however, that is not important when regarding OR) in Aerith's article and the analysis of the Reunion files in Tifa's article are examples of using published material to advance a position. However, the last paragraph in the Kingdom Hearts II section of Tifa's article can stay, because Nomura specifically describes two different interpretations.

I also noticed that Love section in Cloud's article is completely gone, which I am glad of. I would really like to get rid the Love sections in both Aerith and Tifa's articles (as well as the whole sex symbol analysis in Tifa's article); however, I was hesistant on it because there has been some controversial edits going on, particularly in Tifa's article... >_<

I wanted feedback from the rest of WP:FF editors, and if this an agreed consensus, then I will go and take action to delete the OR in the articles. The reason why I didn't go ahead and do so is because it's a controversial issue, and if I were to post this message in talk pages of both articles, I think I would most likely go through the same experience as I did here and here (which I do not want to repeat; trying to explain to IP users/a newbie why Wikipedia is not a crystal ball was rather frustrating), judging by the discussion that was started by the IP users in the talk page of Tifa's article here. —Mir l e n 04:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree that there is certainly a lot of OR in Tifa's article, at least. A recent issue has been the reference to Tifa as a "koibito" by Nomura in the Reunion Files. A look at the scan in question however indicates that the Nomura quote is not in any way an official statement - in fact, it sounds more like an off-hand remark that has been overanalyzed by overenthusiastic Cloti fans. As much as I would like an official statement to the affirmative, it still doesn't clarify whether SE's stand on whether Tifa and Cloud are together or not. I have just removed the reference, but there appears to be a team of dedicated IP users determined to have their say on the article:

I agree wholeheartedly. It's a stated FACT by Tetsuya Nomura, not a LT debate view. And last time I checked, Wikipedia was about stating the FACTS only. And come on, the Reunion Files is more proof then those stupid Novellas.

Why in the world would they delete it? Hell, a quote from Tetsuya Nomura stating that Tifa IS Cloud's lover/sweetheart is more important then a long, worthless article about Aeris' "Personality". I thought Wikipedia was strictly "facts only". Looks like I was wrong.

So yes, I would support an action to remove the OR in both articles. I don't watch the Aerith article, but if it is as littered with original research and interpretations as Tifa's is, then both need a major clean-up. -ryan-d 15:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

SE wasn't giving an interpretation with the koibito line, it's clearly a sentence that can be analyzed in many different ways. I know that the Tifa/Aerith debate is also fiery among the Japanese community (according to Sakamoto Maaya at least), and if it was an official statement of SE's that announced Tifa and Cloud were romantically in love with each other and were lovers, there'd have been an uproar among Japanese fans as well, but I don't see the same fervor over the statement as with Western/English-speaking fans. I honestly wish that SE would go out and state which woman it is that Cloud truly loves, which would settle at least the canonicity ~~war~~ debate between Cloti and Clerith fans and make our job a lot of easier in Wikipedia as well. At the same time though, I understand why they're not — rabid fans can get pretty brutal and scary. In fact, the LTD debates has almost completely neutralized me because of the rather bloody "tooth-and-nail" nature that marks a clear prescence to the point there I feel is choking the overall atmosphere.

There is a huge difference between synthesizing published material serving to advance a position and listing facts, and while the fine line may be a little unclear at times — this is a case in which such a difference can be noticed.

And yes, both articles of Tifa and Aerith need a clean-up, not only in getting rid of OR, but in rewriting some of the summaries written there in OOU perspective according to WP:WAF. I've reorganized the headings in an OOU perspective, but it still needs a lot of work. Speaking of which, both of those articles should probably be on the 'Things to do' list for clean-up. —Mir l e n 21:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Request for comment

Hello. I would like to request for comment on an ongoing dispute on the Tifa Lockhart talk page. The dispute is on whether or not a certain reverted edit comprises OR, and on what information should be included under the "Love" section in the article.

I considered adding this on WP:RFC, but I figured I would try here first, seeing as to how background knowledge of the FF7 Love Triangle might help in resolving the dispute. Thanks! -ryand 08:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Seperate articles for the main characters in FFXII?

As with all Final Fantasies, shouldn't the main characters as with the main villain have seperate articles. Can someone create seperate articles for characters like Vaan, Ashe, Basch, Penelo, Balthier, Fran and Vayne only if you feel they are needed. As the game has been released, more information regarding the game is accessible to us, making it easier for us to create these articles. Whaddya say? -- Visual planet 17:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd prefer that you didn't in the same way that I'd prefer individual character articles be collapsed for other Final Fantasy games. Why not just work on the Final Fantasy XII page itself? Cover the general roles of the characters in the plot section without "analyzing" any one character; character analysis from the primary source (the game itself) is original research. --Tristam 23:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll echo Tristam's response. At this point, I don't see much rationale or benefit for diffusing information about the game throughout more articles than necessary. – Sean Daugherty (talk) 07:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The Project's Logo

Does anyone think that the project's logo does not look good compared to the other wikiprojects' icons?

In my opinion, it doesn't look good. So could anyone explain to me why this photo was never changed? I mean it is not bad to make a newer logo, besides those two F Letters, and that hexagon (yeah, I know it's a crystal). Mohamed 11:30, 10 November 2006 (GMT)

It was changed. Numerous times, in fact. The problem is devising an icon that adequately conveys the scope of the project and doesn't conflict with Wikipedia policy, which prohibits the use of copyrighted/fair use images outside of the article namespace. In short, no Moogles, Chocobos, or anything else that would immediately scream "Final Fantasy" to people. Working within those guidelines, I think the current logo is probably the best we've come up with yet: it uses a font fairly similar the standard title font for the series, and a crystal that is likewise quite reminiscent of graphics from the first five or so games. But I'm always open to new ideas. – Sean Daugherty (talk) 07:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Project talk page templates

Just a quick comment: a lot of article talk pages under our jurisdiction are being afflicted with a veritable ballooning of templates. A number (for example, Talk:Final Fantasy III), include the {{cvgproj}} (CVG WikiProject), {{SEproj}} (Square Enix WikiProject), and {{FinalFantasyProject}} (Final Fantasy WikiProject) templates. This strikes me as a really messy and confusing, since all three projects fall into a rough hierarchy anyway: anything that is part of the Final Fantasy WikiProject is also considered a part of the Square Enix WikiProject, and anything that is part of the Square Enix WikiProject is also considered a part of the computer and video games WikiProject. I would suggest that we modify the templates to reflect this relationship, so that each talk page would need to present only the template for the most specific project it is associated with. Something like this:

WikiProject Final Fantasy

This article is part of WikiProject Final Fantasy, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Final Fantasy on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

WikiProject Final Fantasy is part of WikiProject Square Enix (discussion) and WikiProject Computer and Video Games (discussion).

Related WikiProject to-do Lists:

WikiProject Final Fantasy to-do list:

edit

Featured Topic potential:
Active Featured Article pushes:
Featured Article potential:
Active Good Article pushes:
Good Article potential:
Cleanup:
Other:

WikiProject Computer and Video Games to-do list:

edit

Gaming Collaboration of the week: Wikipedia:Gaming Collaboration of the week/current

Summary of Video games WikiProject open tasks

AfDs

Solo leveling: Unlimited (2 participants)
Game Sack (3 participants)
Delibird (10 participants)
Melee weapon (3 participants)
Godzilla: Monster of Monsters (4 participants)
Godzilla 2: War of the Monsters (4 participants)
Julia Chang (7 participants)
Araya (video game) (3 participants; relisted)
Chao (Sonic the Hedgehog) (7 participants; relisted)
Crazy Bus (10 participants; relisted)

Merge discussions

Other discussions

No major discussions

Navbox

I don't know how many people here participate actively in the discussion over at the CVG WikiProject (I know I usually don't...), but there's a ongoing drive there to simplify and standardize navboxes (see here). I suppose we've only been spared attention because of professional courtesy, but... well... let's be honest: our navbox is a monster. Going by the proposed guidelines offered in the cited thread, I've come up with a more streamlined approach that matches the CVG standard. In dealing with our specific circumstances, I made the following decisions:

I removed any links to category listings. I don't think it's good practice to mix and match article and category links, since it winds up being fairly confusing.
In the case of subseries (Compilation of Final Fantasy VII and Fabula Nova Crystallis Final Fantasy XIII), I've removed links to the individual entries in favor of the main series link. The exceptions are subseries that don't have a series article (Tactics and Crystal Chronicles).
I put the three Crystal Chronicles games on their own line, solely for aesthetic purposes.

After that, the result is as follows:

Final Fantasy • II • III • IV • V • VI • VII • VIII • IX • X • XI • XII • XIII

X-2 • XII Revenant Wings • Adventure • Mystic Quest • Tactics • Tactics Advance
Crystal Chronicles • CC: Crystal Bearers • CC: Ring of Fates
Compilation of VII • Fabula Nova Crystallis XIII • Other

VII Advent Children • Last Order -VII- • Legend of the Crystals • The Spirits Within • Unlimited

Airships • Armor • Bestiary • Character classes • Designers • Items • Magic • Music • Races • Weapons

I'm still a little concerned by the size, but at least it's smaller than the current one, and lacks the weird spacing issue with the title bar. Does anyone have any suggestions or comments? – Sean Daugherty (talk) 12:58, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

How about using smaller text size?

A la...

Final Fantasy • II • III • IV • V • VI • VII • VIII • IX • X • XI • XII • XIII

X-2 • XII Revenant Wings • Adventure • Mystic Quest • Tactics • Tactics Advance •Crystal Chronicles • CC: Crystal Bearers • CC: Ring of Fates •Compilation of VII • Fabula Nova Crystallis XIII • Other

VII Advent Children • Last Order -VII- • Legend of the Crystals • The Spirits Within • Unlimited

Airships • Armor • Bestiary • Character classes • Designers • Items • Magic • Music • Races • Weapons

Or for something seriously slimlined...

Final Fantasy • II • III • IV • V • VI • VII • VIII • IX • X • XI • XII • XIII

— CuaHL ☺ 16:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

In both cases, what concerns me is that we're deviating from the CVG project standard. Less so than the current model, of course, but deviating nonetheless. I like the former (smaller text size) one more than the latter (partially hidden one) one, though. The second one strikes me as a bit confusing. But while the smaller text one saves some screen space, it doesn't really seem to address the deeper issue, which is that an overloaded navbox may be confusing to readers. I was thinking about removing the video links, on the pretense that, a) we don't need to be exhaustive, and b) they're presented as links within List of Final Fantasy titles, which is linked under "other" already. Also, maybe following the advice suggested in WP:CVG thread and removing links to forthcoming titles until they're actually release. So something like this:

Final Fantasy • II • III • IV • V • VI • VII • VIII • IX • X • XI • XII

Compilation of VII • X-2 • Adventure • Crystal Chronicles • Mystic Quest • Tactics • Tactics Advance • Other

Airships • Armor • Bestiary • Character classes • Designers • Items • Magic • Music • Races • Weapons

Thoughts? – Sean Daugherty (talk) 20:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Yours is certainly a step above the clutter that it is now, Sean. Well done! --Tristam 01:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I think cutting off related series and parring down the more info would be beneficial. Only recently was the formatting broken and the box looks broken. I tried slimming it down on the 10th already too. Deusfaux 08:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The box simply works as a slight navigation aid anyway - after all, the whole article is wikilinked. So I think the newest version is perfect. People can still find what they want using it, and it's not an eyesore. — CuaHL ☺ 10:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Gameplay of Final Fantasy rehash

This is certainly a possibility, and I'm closing in on being confortable enough to start it. — Deckill e r 12:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)a

Template:WPFF Navigation