Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard
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Paraphrasing official legal texts
[edit]I'd be interested to get more thoughts on where to draw the line between what qualifies as "original research" vs "reasonable paraphrasing" on articles about Law, when quoting directly the actual text of law (e.g., quoting the constitution, or a text of law).
For example, in "Draft talk:Contravention in French criminal law", one paragraph states:
Article 34 of the Constitution, which pertains to the scope of the law, does not include provisions concerning contraventional offenses, in contrast to crimes and misdemeanors: "The law establishes the rules concerning: [...] the determination of crimes and misdemeanors, as well as the penalties applicable to them.
My opinion was that it would be acceptable for this paragraph to rely only on a primary source (article 34 of the constitution), since the first sentence only makes non-controversial statements that can be easily checked by opening the actual text of the law (i.e., that article 34 doesn't contain any statement related to contraventions but contains statements related to crimes and misdemeanors), and the second paragraph is just a translated quote from that article.
However, in this discussion, @Mathglot was of the opinion that this would qualify as original research unless it is supported by a secondary source.
I agree that other parts of the draft are likely problematic, but I'd be interested in getting more opinions on that particular paragraph, to get better lens on how I should think about OR on legal topics in general. I feel like law (especially in civil law countries) typically relies a lot more on primary sources than other domains such as science where primary sources cannot always be trusted (e.g., due to bias of the authors). Hence I would have expected a lot more weight be given to primary sources given they are the "source of truth" of an entire legal system.
7804j (talk) 13:59, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Mathglot is right here. As Wikipedia editors we should not be assumed to have the legal expertise to understand the important factors of laws and court rulings to be able to quote or directly paraphrase them. Thus we must rely on secondary sources that are reliable for this type of reporting to help us explain laws or the importance parts of court rulings that we can include. — Masem (t) 14:18, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hi, 7804j, I plan to leave this discussion primarily to others unless called upon, but wanted to clarify something. In your OP above, you said: "...when quoting directly the actual text of law", but then later you talk about having a paragraph "...to rely only on a primary source", and that seems quite different to me. I read the former as meaning you want to copy the law word-for-word and double-quote it (no problem), and in the second, you want to have a paragraph that "relies" on the law, by which I understand not word for word, and not double-quoted, i.e., somebody's rewording, or interpretation (big problem).
- So I think we need to be clear about which situation you are talking about here. As the linked discussion was solely about the second case (paraphrased), I'm assuming that is your main intent here, but if I'm wrong about that, please clarify. In connection with an article that is well-sourced to our standards, I have no objection to copying text from a law or Constitution directly into a Wikipedia article, as long as it is word-for-word exact, enclosed in double quotes, properly cited, and reasonably brief. (Long extracts, or even the entire French criminal code is public domain, and you may copy the whole thing if you wish—if it isn't already—to Wikisource, and then link to it from the article.) But I believe you are not asking about that case, but a loose paraphrase of the law, a very different situation, and in my view, that is off-limits. Mathglot (talk) 03:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
OR at White ethnostate
[edit]White ethnostate has an entire section listing "Historical attempts to create White ethnostates". The problem is that there are zero sources describing any of these as "attempts to create White ethnostates". Editors came to the conclusion that they are by taking the definition of "White ethnostate" from one source and then applying it to historical events described in other sources, which is textbook WP:SYNTH. The entire section needs to be removed. I proposed doing so on the talk page, but editors there don't consider this an OR problem, even though they admit the term "White ethnostate" was coined recently and there are no sources applying it to the historical events in question. Un assiolo (talk) 13:22, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- for context i highly recommend reading the whole discussion at Talk:White ethnostate#Nazi Germany as a "White ethnostate", especially User:Grayfell comment "One of the problems here is that the article is not about the term 'white ethnostate', it is about the concept of a white ethnostate. We requires that sources directly support attached statements, but we do not require that they use any specific wording to do so. "Ethnostate" is a relatively recent term which appears to have been coined around 1990, and reliable sources are free to use other terms to describe this concept." wikipedia is not a dictionary Gooduserdude (talk) 14:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Suppose this were about a different term – for example, fascism. Would it be acceptable to take a definition of fascism from one source and combine it with a source describing a politician's words or actions, and then claim the politician is a fascist, without a source explicitly saying so? Clearly not. How is this any different?
- "Ethnostate" is a very specific term with a very specific meaning, while the "historical attempts" described are generic racism. That is why I am nitpicking about sources: there are no sources because these historical events do not fit the definition. --Un assiolo (talk) 16:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- for context i highly recommend reading the whole discussion at Talk:White ethnostate#Nazi Germany as a "White ethnostate", especially User:Grayfell comment "One of the problems here is that the article is not about the term 'white ethnostate', it is about the concept of a white ethnostate. We requires that sources directly support attached statements, but we do not require that they use any specific wording to do so. "Ethnostate" is a relatively recent term which appears to have been coined around 1990, and reliable sources are free to use other terms to describe this concept." wikipedia is not a dictionary Gooduserdude (talk) 14:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is textbook OR. Editors are not to connect past events with modern concepts unless a source does so for them. In this particular case, it's particularly dubious. Nazi Germany didn't believe in "white" supremacy (ask the Slavs); they believed in Nordic/Aryan supremacy. JDiala (talk) 21:37, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Sgian-dubh
[edit]There is a dispute at Sgian-dubh around original resarch and sourcing. Short version, I removed an amount of text that I considered OR, synthesis or wasn't actually in the sources cited. One or two editors have repeatedly reverted, with reasoning that IMO amounts to "it doesn't need to be sourced". I would appreciate others taking a look. // Hippo43 (talk) 15:33, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Tim walz
[edit]The page states that Tim Walz achieved the rank of Command Sergeant Major however this is inaccurate because he did not complete the requirements to maintain and keep that rank and was instead later demoted. For further information see: https://youtube.com/sVMkvv8PQhk — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:2090:105F:5DD2:8686:3633:9D5B (talk) 00:13, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- The page states that Tim Walz achieved the rank of Command Sergeant Major
- He did attain that rank.
- to maintain and keep that rank and was instead later demoted
- How can you be demoted from something you never attained?
- Answer should be proof enough for you. Lostsandwich (talk) 05:34, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- The article does not mention the demotion. It should. Blueboar (talk) 10:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- 1) Why should it? Noting the highest rank attained is the policy for infoboxes.
- 2) It does mention it. Lostsandwich (talk) 11:33, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- The article does not mention the demotion. It should. Blueboar (talk) 10:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- How is this original research? Seems like it's directly from multiple sources that are cited. It's also mentioned in the article that he didn't fulfill the requirements to retain the position.
- Per the Tim Walz Wikipedia page:
"public affairs officer for the Minnesota National Guard in 2018 said it was "legitimate for Walz to say he served as a command sergeant major", while Walz's former battalion commander, John Kolb, described his usage of the title as "frocking"."
- This isn't the place for this dispute, rather, you should use the talk page to gain consensus for changing it. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 23:24, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Apparently, the National Guard will reduce someone's rank after retirement because of their short service in that rank. But how is that different from Donald Trump who achieved the rank of commander in chief but lost that rank when he left the presidency? It certainly doesn't mean he was never commander in chief. TFD (talk) 02:16, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Commander in chief" is a title, not a rank. It is attached to the office, unlike rank, which is attached to an individual (enlisted) or their commission (officers).⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 07:57, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
I think an editor is trying to create their own "term" with the incel related "Elliot Rodger effect", which I cannot source to anything. Suggestions the article should be renamed Legacy of the 2014 Isla Vista killings, were ignored and a redirect created. I suspect there is OR in this article (the title is OR), and that this should be merged with 2014 Isla Vista killings. Thoughts? Aszx5000 (talk) 15:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, this term straight up does not exist. It barely even exists on incel message boards, never mind any reliable source. Its clearly an attempt at riffing off the Columbine effect, but it just does not exist and should not be the name of the article. Macxcxz (talk) 20:57, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I also think that as well as renaming to Legacy of the 2014 Isla Vista killings is should also be merged with 2014 Isla Vista killings as it is a contentious topic (i.e. 2014 Isla Vista killings is ECP locked). Aszx5000 (talk) 10:04, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Definitely should be renamed but I'd even argue the article should be deleted entirely / merged into the main page of its parent article, which is what I've argued on the AfD someone created. StewdioMACK (talk) 14:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
I was having another look at this article, is this a possible hoax, trash article? Govvy (talk) 13:03, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- The battle itself looks like fiction, but a campaign does seem to have occured in Jammu during that year. In fact it's odd this has an article and not Battle of Sialkot, which does seem to have happened based on the sources from Hari Singh Nalwa. Seems a new article for Sialkot is needed with an aftermath section detailing events in Jammu during 1808. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 04:21, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) and Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction)
[edit]Spworld2 has added 1989 as the year of formation in Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) citing a source that does not say about the year of year of formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction), while Spworld2 added 1926 as the year of formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction). Is this original research?. Having nothing to discuss Spworld2 resort to the use of the WP:CONFLICT which Spworld2 clearly has since Spworld2 is not ready to produce the sources for the Spworld2's claim, which is also EK Samastha's claim of being itself the original or real Samastha. Neutralhappy (talk) 08:53, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- The source Spworld2 used to say the formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) was in 1989, in the infobox, is this one. This source does not say about the formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction), rather the split of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama in 1989. So kindly remove it from the infobox. Neutralhappy (talk) 09:04, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have informed Spworld2 about this discussion. Neutralhappy (talk) 09:09, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- a discussion going on - Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Samastha_Kerala_Jem-iyyathul_Ulama_(AP_faction)_&_Samastha_Kerala_Jem-iyyathul_Ulama_(EK_faction) Spworld2 (talk) 11:02, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Asking about the same dispute on two noticeboards is not helpful.
- That said… I don’t see an Original Research issue here. BOTH of the modern organizations claim to be the “true” continuation of the original. There are plenty of sources that note that this is the case. There are also sources that support the claims of one or the other. What I am getting at is this: none of the “foundation” dates originate here on WP, with a WP editor. It is a dispute that exists out there, in the real world. So it isn’t “original” for WP to state any of these dates.
- As for the WP:NPOV question regarding which which “foundation” date should go with which faction - I would ask others to assist at the other discussion (over at that noticeboard). I won’t address that question here. All I am saying here is that I don’t see a WP:NOR violation in any of this. Blueboar (talk) 12:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- But the sources Spworld2 cited do not support the claim. If there is no source to support it it is original research. If it is not original research, both Samasthas should have the same date of formation. Neutralhappy (talk) 13:13, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
RfC on Sources and their use on Mahatma Gandhi's last hunger strike
[edit]Feedback on what the reliable sources allow us to say about the motivations and goals of Mahatma Gandhi's last hunger strike is requested at: Talk:Mahatma Gandhi RfC on Mahatma Gandhi's last hunger strike Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:26, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
I think this is a very problematic article written like an essay and seems to have been concocted from various sources - almost none of which are about the topic "Political marriages in India" - and thus feels like WP:OR. Would appreciate more views on it. thanks. Aszx5000 (talk) 09:43, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Screams Without Words
[edit]The article Screams Without Words has a couple of disagreements on its talk page, including ones that hinge on whether there is SYNTH in the article. A very small number of editors are involved and fresh eyes would be beneficial. Please see the talk page section "Yura Karol" in particular. BobFromBrockley (talk) 07:48, 24 August 2024 (UTC)