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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge and redirect. This is a complicated and obviously controversial question. Consensus has been established several times to delete this article under variant titles, and while consensus can change, the majority of editors responding to this AfD do not seem to feel that it has, in that this specific group does not seem to have enough reliable independent sourcing to verify notability for a separate article. Many of the uncomplicated arguments here for keep (i.e. not for merge or redirect) seem either to be arguing for the existence rather than notability of the group or are not offering verifiable sourcing to establish that the group is notable. Others do not address the complicating factor that the name/term has wider usage, a complication referenced repeatedly by those responders arguing to delete and underscored by the fact that those responders arguing for merge do not concord on the appropriate destination article.

While many of the keep arguments do not address the concerns raised by those arguing for delete, there is suggestion even among several of those arguing to delete that this subject may be usefully addressed somewhere on Wikipedia or, at least, that the confusion occasioned by the term should be addressed. Rather than recreate Jews Against Zionism (disambiguation), a page itself deleted following AfD, it should be equally useful to point this title to a subsection of an existing article. Reasonable objections have been raised to the redirection of the article to Neturei Karta and Satmar (Hasidic dynasty), even though I personally find Elan26's point persuasive. Anti-Zionism, and specifically the subsection on Jewish anti-Zionism, seems to be the least controversial home suggested for this information. It seems to best accord with the consensus in this AfD that the group does not demonstrate stand-alone notability but that the group and/or term may be notable in connection to a larger topic to merge a small amount (given weight concerns) of the material into that space. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jews Against Zionism

[edit]
AfDs for this article:
Jews Against Zionism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Why is this group notable enough for wikipedia, if anything, they can be mentioned in the Satmar or Neturei Karta articles Avi (talk) 23:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep – I have struck my delete opinion and moved over to Keep based on research that the group is gaining notoriety and does pass my personal assessment of Notability. The articles I found that lend themselves to creditability – reliability and 3rd party sourcing are shown here, [1]. However, I should point out, that the article itself does need a rewrite that establishes and points specifically to a claim of Notability such as a statement as provided by Khaleej Times: “…most notable example is the quarrel in the United Kingdom between members of Jews against Zionism and those of Deir Yassin Remembered.” Or the article is going to end up here, again and again and again. ShoesssS Talk 20:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Keep in mind that there are at least three groups called "Jews Against Zionism". The article is about the Satmar group that maintains the website. There is another Orthodox Jewish group, the Neturei Karta, who use the name. There is also a secular group in the UK by the same name. A Google search is virtually useless in this instance. If an article mentions meeting with Palestinian leaders or Ahmadinejad, it's about Neturei Karta. If it's about something in the UK, it's about the secular group. Those probably account for 99% of the Google hits. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - nothing proven besides having a website, fails NN. --Shuki (talk) 22:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete (this is actually the 5th AfD for this, it has been deleted 4 times in different formats), and then I recommend recreating the Jews Against Zionism (disambiguation) page that was deleted in this AfD to clear up the continuous confusion over the three different groups Malik mentioned that get lumped under this title. The group the current article is about has no third party sources confirming it is actually associated with Satmar and the website registration does not confirm who actually runs the site and therefore fails WP:V. The more notable of the three groups labeled JAZ is the nonreligious European group. The news articles that mention Jews against Zionism are not referring to the group in this article but rather either the anti-Zionist group [Neturai Karta] (they're not called JAZ but as Jews who happen to be against Zionism they come up in "Jews against Zionism" searches) or the secular group. At least the old disambig page made clear the different groups that get associated with this name, none of which are individually notable enough for their own article. --MPerel 02:42, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This is a mess, and it is difficult to see what is the best way to proceed. It certainly shows the unwisdom of deleting the original disambiguation page. This group is probably notable enough to warrant an article, but there is a clear difficulty in distinguishing between it and Neturei Karta. But it would be better named True Torah Jews or True Torah Jews Against Zionism, as they call themselves. As MPerel and Malik Shabazz note above, many of the Google hits for "Jews Against Zionism" actually relate to the organisation of left-wing anti-Zionist Jews in Britain. I believe that this group, too, should have an article on Wikipedia. It is active and well known, and at least as notable as, for example, Brighton and Hove Palestine Solidarity Campaign or Engage. It is mentioned in other Wikipedia articles, and occasionally mistakenly linked to this article. However, as I am a leading member of that group, it would clearly be a conflict of interest for me to write such an article, or to make any more than technical or obviously factual edits to it. Additionally, such an article would inevitably attract the unwelcome attentions of the Runtshit vandal, creating more unneeded problems. At the very least, we should recreate a disambiguation page, and ensure that links refer to the correct group. RolandR (talk) 12:53, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Not notable. Culturalrevival (talk) 18:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • keap - this article evidently bothers fgor the pro zionist users that it exists we cannot let this vicios censorship rule ourt project. It is not fringe if u arnt a zionist. i am a jew and i atest that this org is main stream amongst hasidic frum religies jews thanks--YY (talk) 16:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • CSD G4 -- Y not? 04:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge into Satmar (Hasidic dynasty) and, specifically, into the scction of that article "Satmar opposition to Zionism" Which alreadyhas a section explaining the difference between this group and Neturei Karta.Elan26 (talk) 18:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)Elan26[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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