Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard
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Kris Kristofferson
[edit]Hello there. Additional opinions might be needed on the Kris Kristofferson article regarding his 2016 Lyme disease diagnosis. The current discussion can be found at Talk:Kris Kristofferson#Lyme Disease - revisited. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 06:23, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Since no one's responded, I go ahead and give you my two cents. This isn't really a BLP issue as much as it's an NPOV issue. Now, if it were a case of people speculating someone had a disease, it'd be a different story. For example, if we tried to put in his article that so-and-so said, "Biden's poor performance in the debate was the result of mental illness." that would be a big no-no per BLP policy. In this case, the source of the information is the subject himself, which the article makes clear, so we can simply take that for what it's worth. Is it true? Is it a lie? Is it a misdiagnosis? Doesn't matter. It is simply what he said.
- The bigger question is: is it DUE? We have one source, Rolling Stone. The other two sources are simply regurgitating the Rolling Stone article, which they freely admit. (This is a reliable source's way of saying, "We're not taking any credit or blame for this. We didn't do any fact checking. This is all on them.) Is this one source enough to show that this is due weight, or is it just trivia?
- One thing that strikes me is how very little this tells us about the subject. As someone who's never heard of him before (yes, I've been living under a rock... rock n' roll) the sentence in question made little sense until I read the sources. Without knowing any of the background info, I was like, so? Who cares? People get lyme disease, so what? It wasn't until I got the background information that it began to show some significance in his life, and this is what's missing for the average reader to be able to understand. When we summarize a source, we need to summarize the whole source, not simply pick parts of it and leave the significance of it all a mystery. Of course, if we do that it might make it even more undue given the lack of independent sources.
- The one thing that really stands out is the next sentence, and I quote, "Noting that the diagnosis was facilitated by an alternative medicine doctor, David Gorski commented that Kristofferson had become a victim of chronic Lyme disease quackery." That one is poorly written in that it could have several different meanings, depending on how you look at it. Is this Gorski his alternative medicine doctor? Why use the word facilitated? People don't talk like that except when they're trying to sound smarter than they really are. Does this mean he was diagnosed by an alternative medicine doc, or that an alternative doctor passed along this info from another doctor? What is "lyme disease quackery"? Does this Gorski think that lyme disease is not real? (Please, God, don't tell me you expect me to click the links to find out, because that ain't happening.) This really reads like it was tacked on by a lyme-disease denier in order to make some vague point known only to themselves. but all of it is lacking any of the necessary background info needed to make it understandable and significant to people who don't already know it, that is, the average reader like me. Not to mention "quackery" is a colloquialism and shouldn't be used in formal writing. Oh, and the source is both a blog and an opinion piece.
- To sum it up, I see no BLP violation here, but y'all need to have some serious discussion on the talk page regarding NPOV, due weight, and wording. We should only include information that shows some significant impact on his life and career, but we also need to convey that significance to the reader. Otherwise it's pointless. Zaereth (talk) 00:56, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- The trouble is there's lyme disease (the all-too-real thing) and "lyme disease" (sometimes also called "chronic lyme disease", a made up disease which often "diagnosed" as part of a medical fraud in which the fraudster can then sell lucrative unnecessary treatments). In the latter case, often the victim will believe some deep underlying problem in their body has been found and evangelize for the very quackery they've fallen prey to but which "conventional medicine could not find". Don't know about this particular case but Wikipedia needs to make damn sure it's not mixing things up. WP:SBM is a generally reliable source, particularly on medical fraud. Bon courage (talk) 04:24, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I understand that, but only after reading the sources. It wasn't clear at all from reading our article, in fact, I had to read that sentence a few times before it began to make a little sense. And I would have had to go down a couple of rabbit holes to really understand it, which I really hate having to do. The sentence itself needs to be rewritten; gaps need to be filled and questions answered. But I still don't know if any of it is DUE. Has the subject gone off on some campaign to promote this, or is it just this one interview? I mean, it's always good to try and debunk some quackery, but that also has a WP:Don't stuff beans up your nose effect. Often it's better to give such things less weight, not more, unless there's a much deeper story and public interest in it. Zaereth (talk) 04:51, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
Has the subject gone off on some campaign to promote this, or is it just this one interview?
: I think it's probably just the one interview with Rolling Stone, since I didn't find any evidence of the subject going off on a campaign to promote it. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:34, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I understand that, but only after reading the sources. It wasn't clear at all from reading our article, in fact, I had to read that sentence a few times before it began to make a little sense. And I would have had to go down a couple of rabbit holes to really understand it, which I really hate having to do. The sentence itself needs to be rewritten; gaps need to be filled and questions answered. But I still don't know if any of it is DUE. Has the subject gone off on some campaign to promote this, or is it just this one interview? I mean, it's always good to try and debunk some quackery, but that also has a WP:Don't stuff beans up your nose effect. Often it's better to give such things less weight, not more, unless there's a much deeper story and public interest in it. Zaereth (talk) 04:51, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- As I stated on the talk page, if the article subject has stated that he thinks he was diagnosed with xyz, even if he was only diagnosed with quackery in real life (how would we editors even know) then we should cover it at face value in the article. If it is disputed, we can always note that in the text. Sjones23 here removed it crying BLP in their revert of ScienceFlyer, but how could that be relevant if the subject stated it himself, it cant therefore be controversial. I dont understand the issue, but wondering if we might have WP:TE here. Lord seems to think the very mention of a diagnosis is worthy of some sort of additional analysis (and WP:OR) on the part of us editors to figure out if the dude really had it or not. Confused what is controversial. If the subject had a dream and woke up and thought he was now a donkey, we would include that...So whats the issue here? Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 04:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- The problem is that saying somebody was 'diagnosed' with a fake disease gives credence to that fake disease, so Wikipedia needs to add some context for NPOV. If no sources exist on the particular case that's hard. Best just to omit; Wikipedia is WP:NOTEVERYTHING. Bon courage (talk) 06:49, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is the Lyme claim by the subject covered in RS? I recall there were WP:RSP green sources for that. Correct? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:17, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- There's a ScienceBlogs piece from Gorski.[1] which is solid on the quackery as you'd expect. But using that for a BLP would be problematic. Bon courage (talk) 07:26, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not impossible though. It would just need attribution rather than be used as a definitive third-party source. WP:EXPERTSPS has some guidance on that to never use such sources third-party sources about living people. With otherwise poor sourcing though, just leaving the lyme mention out entirely may be an option too. KoA (talk) 19:27, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Above says RollingStone, that is more than sufficient for a BLP. We aren't stating that the subject has or had Lyme disease in wikivoice, we are stating that the subject said he thought he had lyme disease. Big difference. MEDRS doesnt apply to this. Also this scienceblogs is not an RS. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 00:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- There's a ScienceBlogs piece from Gorski.[1] which is solid on the quackery as you'd expect. But using that for a BLP would be problematic. Bon courage (talk) 07:26, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is the Lyme claim by the subject covered in RS? I recall there were WP:RSP green sources for that. Correct? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:17, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- You're correct in that we don't need MEDRS sources for this. Now, if this were something like the Biden example I used above, we would need MEDRS sources, but not for this. This is not an issue that falls under BLP policy.
- However, it still falls under NPOV policy, including BALANCE and WEIGHT and the WP:10 year test. As an encyclopedia, we summarize the key points about a subject, and by definition summarizing means cutting out all the trivia and boring details, and whittling it all down to the nitty gritty. Not everything in a reliable source is worthy of inclusion. For example, if a subject said they had a dream they were a donkey, we would most certainly not include it unless it became something significant to their career. If they said their favorite cereal is Fruitloops, we probably wouldn't include that either. That's just trivial nonsense with no point.
- The biggest problem with the disputed content is it had no point. That's just a problem with poor writing. Scientists invariably write for scientists, not for the general reader, so unless you already know what they're talking about, nobody understands what they're talking about. Same with fans. Fans write for other fans, so they automatically assume everyone else has the background knowledge to understand what they said. It's a very common problem. People always understand what they mean, but conveying that in a way so that others will get the point is very difficult. If we include it, it needs to have some point to it, and that's going to take a lot of clarification.
- Weight is another big issue, which helps us separate the wheat from the chaff. Especially for celebrity articles, otherwise everytime Jennifer Aniston went to the bathroom it would be part of her Wikipedia article. Weight is how we gauge public interest in the information. This is basically a simple math formula in figuring out percentages. By comparing this one source to all the other sources that exist on this subject, how much space in the article would it deserve? 50% of the article? 40%? Less than 1%? In other words, does it need a full section, a paragraph or two, a single sentence, or would even one sentence be too much? (I'm leaning toward the last one, but then again I'm not familiar with all the sources.) Weight and balance are best discussed on the article's talk page between people who are familiar with all the sources, not on a noticeboard like this. That's for y'all to come to a consensus on yourselves. Zaereth (talk) 02:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed. NPOV cannot be swerved, in particular WP:FRINGESUBJECTS which says "Any inclusion of fringe or pseudoscientific views should not give them undue weight. The fringe or pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such. An explanation of how experts in the relevant field have reacted to such views should be prominently included". Thus if Wikipedia is airing the idea of a chronic lyme "infection", it needs to point out it's not a real disease. ScienceBlogs is RS for this, but the BLP aspect makes its use problematic. The best solution is just to leave this stuff out. Bon courage (talk) 05:52, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Agree with the last sentence: it primarily seems undue weight to mention this at all. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 05:56, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed. NPOV cannot be swerved, in particular WP:FRINGESUBJECTS which says "Any inclusion of fringe or pseudoscientific views should not give them undue weight. The fringe or pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such. An explanation of how experts in the relevant field have reacted to such views should be prominently included". Thus if Wikipedia is airing the idea of a chronic lyme "infection", it needs to point out it's not a real disease. ScienceBlogs is RS for this, but the BLP aspect makes its use problematic. The best solution is just to leave this stuff out. Bon courage (talk) 05:52, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Weight is another big issue, which helps us separate the wheat from the chaff. Especially for celebrity articles, otherwise everytime Jennifer Aniston went to the bathroom it would be part of her Wikipedia article. Weight is how we gauge public interest in the information. This is basically a simple math formula in figuring out percentages. By comparing this one source to all the other sources that exist on this subject, how much space in the article would it deserve? 50% of the article? 40%? Less than 1%? In other words, does it need a full section, a paragraph or two, a single sentence, or would even one sentence be too much? (I'm leaning toward the last one, but then again I'm not familiar with all the sources.) Weight and balance are best discussed on the article's talk page between people who are familiar with all the sources, not on a noticeboard like this. That's for y'all to come to a consensus on yourselves. Zaereth (talk) 02:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- There's also this interview with Lisa Kristofferson (the subject's wife) on The Lyme Times back in 2016. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:52, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- We definitely don't want to go anywhere near that. Bon courage (talk) 06:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I see. As for Rolling Stone, it is considered a reliable source for culture matters per WP:ROLLINGSTONECULTURE. However, RS is unreliable for politically and societally sensitive issues reported since 2011 as per WP:ROLLINGSTONEPOLITICS. Deciding whether the articles are accurate or not would also be considered original research on our part. I hope this helps. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 06:59, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- We definitely don't want to go anywhere near that. Bon courage (talk) 06:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Deciding the accuracy of articles is part of what we do. For example, the dogfight article used to say the term came from pilots who would constantly turn their plane's engines on and off during combat, which made them sound like dogs barking. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that was complete bunk. WWI fighters didn't have starters. You had to get out and turn the prop by hand, which is a little hard to do in combat. The source was a tour guide for some town on the East Coast of the US, which probably was a perfectly reliable source for tourist information, but a lousy source for aerial combat. It wasn't hard to find better sources.
- Let me ask you this: is the fact that the subject said he had lyme disease the main point of the Rolling Stone article? That's like summarizing the movie Avatar by saying only that the main character was in a wheelchair, and nothing else. Never mind the blue aliens and the greedy corporation trying to steal all their unobtainium. There's nothing really special or significant about someone contracting lyme disease; it happens all the time. By itself, it's like saying the subject said he caught a cold, or that his favorite color is purple, which begs the question, "So what?" If we're going to include this, we need to tell the reader what it's all about. We need to answer the "so what". Yet doing that will most certainly require more than a single sentence, giving it even more weight. Doing that opens the door for those who are critical of this as being pseudoscience, so then we need to add even more weight.
- Then the question becomes, does this one Rolling Stone article have enough weight of its own to warrant us giving so much weight in our article? Personally, I hardly think so. One RS article for a celebrity doesn't add a lot of weight, plus Rolling Stone magazine doesn't carry a lot of weight itself, even for the information it is reliable for. (Far better sources exist.) Now, if he was promoting this pseudoscience and going around preaching this to anyone who would listen, and started getting a lot more sources to do their own independent interviews, then we would have evidence of a greater public interest in this whole thing. We would then have the weight needed to include it in the necessary detail for the reader to get the full picture. Lacking that, I think it's best just to leave it out entirely. Zaereth (talk) 04:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, reasonable concerns. To give an example, reliable sources from WP:RSP such as CBS News, CNN, HuffPost (where Dana Parish's 2016 interview with Lisa Kristofferson originates from), Variety, USA Today and the BBC can mention how a subject's health problems impacted their lives (such as the aforementioned Lyme disease, which previously was the subject of a discussion on the Justin Bieber article). Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 06:38, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- There seems to be a disconnect here. Kris K does not have the 'health problems' he thinks. He's being conned by quacks. Chronic Lyme disease is a fake condition. Wikipedia isn't going to play the game of giving it credence. Bon courage (talk) 17:27, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I completely understand where you're coming from. As a side note, there were some previous discussions about the Lyme disease situation on Kris K's talk page: one in 2016, one in 2019, and one in 2023. Taking the above statements raised here by Zaereth and Bon courage into consideration, I also think we can simply leave it out for now pending further feedback; we can also reach a potential consensus on the talk page if it's needed. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:37, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- There seems to be a disconnect here. Kris K does not have the 'health problems' he thinks. He's being conned by quacks. Chronic Lyme disease is a fake condition. Wikipedia isn't going to play the game of giving it credence. Bon courage (talk) 17:27, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, reasonable concerns. To give an example, reliable sources from WP:RSP such as CBS News, CNN, HuffPost (where Dana Parish's 2016 interview with Lisa Kristofferson originates from), Variety, USA Today and the BBC can mention how a subject's health problems impacted their lives (such as the aforementioned Lyme disease, which previously was the subject of a discussion on the Justin Bieber article). Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 06:38, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Then the question becomes, does this one Rolling Stone article have enough weight of its own to warrant us giving so much weight in our article? Personally, I hardly think so. One RS article for a celebrity doesn't add a lot of weight, plus Rolling Stone magazine doesn't carry a lot of weight itself, even for the information it is reliable for. (Far better sources exist.) Now, if he was promoting this pseudoscience and going around preaching this to anyone who would listen, and started getting a lot more sources to do their own independent interviews, then we would have evidence of a greater public interest in this whole thing. We would then have the weight needed to include it in the necessary detail for the reader to get the full picture. Lacking that, I think it's best just to leave it out entirely. Zaereth (talk) 04:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
Chris Lintott
[edit]I'm requesting a reversion of an edit by an anonymous user to Chris Lintott which changed my job title from 'Professor of Astrophysics' to 'Research Fellow'. I remain a Professor of Astrophysics - see the Department of Physics webpages here. I think the confusion is that I'm a Research Fellow at New College, but this is not my main place of work. I'd revert it myself but am being cautious about editing the article about me. Thanks Chrislintott (talk) 11:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I just corrected the article. TRVTHSERVM (talk) 16:17, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, much appreciated. Chrislintott (talk) 22:26, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Anni-Frid Lyngstad
[edit]Some person keep inserting a false claim into the 'Early Life' section of the subject, based on a unreliable source which in turn has used discredited information. This has already been discussed and resolved before by those adding reliable information to that page.
To clarify, the subject was NOT a part of the Lebensborn program during World War Two. Respected and well researched biographies of both the Pop group ABBA as well as the individual involved have long debunked this rumour. The subject, Anni-Frid Lyngstad, was born six months after WW2 ended in Europe. The German military machine had evacuated out of Northern Norway even earlier. Hence, there was no Lebensborn program operating there during her mothers pregnancy. In any case, her mother and father had no connection with the Lebensborn organisation before the pregnancy.
The Lebensborn program was set up by the SS and was used by members of the SS, the paid up members of the Nazi Party and fanatical believers in that ideology. Anni-Frid's father was not in the SS. Neither was he a professional soldier but a pastry chef who had been conscripted into the Heer (German Army) during the war. In occupied Norway, German soldiers were encouraged to fraternise with the local women but this is separate from registering with the Lebensborn organisation in order to specifically produce racially 'pure' children . To have a child under that program, both parents needed to undergo tests to prove their racial 'purity'. Pregnant women gave birth in specific Lebensborn nursing homes where they also received pre and post natal assistance.
None of this happened in the Anni-Frid Lyngstad case. The nearest Lebensborn home had been 26 miles / 42 kms away in Narvik during the war. Anni-Frid Lyngstad was born in the family home in the small village of Bjorkasen. The midwife couldn't attend so the birth was assisted by her grandmother and aunts.
Many years later, it was discovered that Anni-Frid's father, Alfred Haase, had survived the war and was still alive. He denied any knowledge of Lebensborn. He also didn't know he had even fathered a child. They had a year long love affair and it's thought Anni-Frid's mother became pregnant when they spent one last time together before Alfred Haase was evacuated the next morning.
Anni-Frid, therefore is one of the many 'War Children' born as a result of relationships between military personnel and civilians during WW2. And she is mentioned under that Subject title. But she is not a product of the Lebensborn program. It is wrong to suggest it so.[1][2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bovis Messroom (talk • contribs) 18:17, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, it seems the term has become something of a catchall for "anyone born of a German soldier" which is most definitely not the case. I haven't looked specifically in to the case to see if the mother ever applied to the program, but what you've presented seems convincing so far. Lostsandwich (talk) 06:29, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your response. The two links I posted are for the most respected and well researched books that have dealt with this issue. The first biography is 'Bright Lights Dark Shadows' by Carl Magnus Palm. This biography goes into depth on the lives of the four individual members who would form the Pop group ABBA. This book is regarded as the definitive biography on the band and Palm has become trusted by the group members, so much so that he has been granted access to unreleased studio recordings at the groups HQ in Stockholm. He has gone on to write a number of other books regarding ABBA.
- The second link is probably even more noteworthy. This is for the biography 'Frida Beyond ABBA'. It was written only a few years ago by Remko Van Drongelen. In it, he explored specifically the life of Anni-Frid Lyngstad. He went even further than 'Bright Lights Dark Shadows' in exploring the archives, her family ancestry, quotes from her family members and interviews with those who knew her very early life. Anni-Frid Lyngstad herself helped provide some information to the author of this book. So whilst it's not an 'official' bio/autobio, it's pretty close to one.
- In neither of these biographies is it suggested there was any contact with the Lebensborn program. Their in depth research has led both to conclude that Anni-Frid Lynstad was the result of a genuine year long love affair, the sort of which was happening between soldiers and civilians all over Europe during WW2. When Synni, Anni-Frid's mother, discovered she was pregnant in March or April 1945, it's highly doubtful that Lebensborn was even operational in Northern Norway by then. No evidence has ever been found to suggest any contact with it. Northern Norway was being liberated by Allied forces at this time while Germany itself was being invaded and weeks from surrender.
- What is abundantly true though is that the Lyngstad family and mostly the mother and new baby were subject to the same post-war reprisals in Norway as those who were registered with the Lebensborn program there. It would seem they tried to 'ride it out' in their home village till emotions cooled but to no avail. Fearful, the mother, child and grandmother all left in May 1947 for a new life in Sweden.
- Sorry for rambling on but I thought this issue had been cleared up before on the Anni-Frid Lyngstad entry and now somebody seems insistent on inserting an incorrect statement in her profile again. I don't know if they're doing it maliciously or not but it's wrong. Bovis Messroom (talk) 10:59, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- the issue isn't that information was changed, it's that you edited an article and did not indicate why, that is critical. Otherwise all the info seems to check out. Lostsandwich (talk) 11:36, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I haven't recently edited anything in that article unless you mean by trying to delete the offending sentence. The person with the handle 'disco-spinster' is the one who has recently edited the 'Early Life' section by inserting that sentence implying Anni-Frid Lyngstad is a Lebensborn child which is false. That sentence is still there.
- I'm not too clued up about the editing protocol on Wikipedia and therefore apologise if I didn't follow the right procedure. I just got a little annoyed seeing that untruth being inserted into the section again. I have already contacted disco-spinster, informing them of the known facts and asking them to withdraw their own edit but I've had no reply as yet.
- Again, apologies for not doing things right. I'll endeavour to do so in future. Regards. Bovis Messroom (talk) 19:33, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- the issue isn't that information was changed, it's that you edited an article and did not indicate why, that is critical. Otherwise all the info seems to check out. Lostsandwich (talk) 11:36, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
References
Censored
[edit]Why was most of Vance’s distinguished military record erased? 2603:7081:1BF0:1190:6137:5728:C104:9AA (talk) 19:06, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Probably best to discuss this on the article talk page and to be as specific as possible. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 19:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- There is already a thread about this above. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 10:29, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Read the text in the article, his military record is there. All his decorations may not be. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:32, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Some extra eyes would be appreciated here. There have been IPs making edits from the questionable (inserting weasel words into discrimination language) to clear-cut violations of BLP (adding unsupported allegations that the subject is antisemitic). Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 14:28, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- I put in a WP:PP request to increase protection, likely to be approved. Should hold until the IP vandals get bored and move on. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:15, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Casey Wasserman
[edit]Just posted this question on his talk page but may as well also post here to get some more input. There's a bunch of stories now about him and what he got up to in his spare time. What's the deal in terms of adding it to his article? Billie Eilish already left his agency because of this. Relevant to add? Or just scuttlebutt? MaskedSinger (talk) 05:47, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- It depends a great deal on the nature (quality and volume) of sourcing — in neither discussion you started have you mentioned a source that you might use for this content. What are the highest quality sources that have covered it? 100.36.106.199 (talk) 10:39, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- cc @Nil Einne
- https://variety.com/2024/film/news/casey-wasserman-billie-eilish-tabloid-scandal-fallout-1236106962/
- https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/billie-eilish-casey-wasserman-agent-cheating-b2597115.html
- https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/billie-eilish-wme-casey-wasserman-sexual-misconduct-claims-1235975797/ MaskedSinger (talk) 12:51, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Having read those an some other sources like [2] and below, as I expected it's complicated which means the due situation is not so clear cut. It's been confirmed that Eilish moved to another agency, and this came no long after the Daily Mail report with allegations against Wasserman. Various sources say insiders have said she was upset by the allegations or even that it was the reason for the move. However there has been no official confirmation, and I expect there won't be, that it was the reason. There are at least some sources. e.g. Variety which seems confident enough in their sources to say in their voice that it was the reason while others like the Independent seem to just be treating it as something that has been claimed. It's also a little weird that some of the sources seem to be concentrating on the "extramarital affair" aspect when while there's no comment (that I've seen) on precisely what concerned Eilish, it seems much more likely it was the employees aspect. Nil Einne (talk) 13:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Do we have a high quality secondary source or preferably multiple such sources, confirming Billie Eilish left his agency because of whatever it is? IMO if so, that's the sort of career impacting move that strongly suggests at least some limited inclusion is WP:DUE Nil Einne (talk) 10:43, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Also100.36.106.199 (talk) 12:10, 16 August 2024 (UTC)Billie Eilish left his agency
is this some sort of elaborate trolling?- For interest, as someone with little to no knowledge about this story (apart from seeing this the other day), I have no idea what "his" is meant to suggest. He's CEO of the agency isn't he? Sean.hoyland (talk) 12:28, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh I see, I mis-parsed. I've struck my confused comment. (Feel free to remove my two comments and yours, if you like.) 100.36.106.199 (talk) 12:32, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- No worries, I'm in a permanent state of confusion. Sean.hoyland (talk) 12:41, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh I see, I mis-parsed. I've struck my confused comment. (Feel free to remove my two comments and yours, if you like.) 100.36.106.199 (talk) 12:32, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- For interest, as someone with little to no knowledge about this story (apart from seeing this the other day), I have no idea what "his" is meant to suggest. He's CEO of the agency isn't he? Sean.hoyland (talk) 12:28, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Harriet Sandburg
[edit]Harriet Sandburg she is a singer — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jennifer Maria Thomas (talk • contribs) 11:40, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- This editor seems to have recreated this page multiple times -- it seems some administrative intervention to prevent that is needed. --100.36.106.199 (talk) 12:04, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's salted now (by Justlettersandnumbers) --Hammersoft (talk) 13:03, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
sport-interfax.ru
[edit]Hi all, I just reverted a change to Imane Khelif at Special:Diff/1240638173 to remove a clarify tag which was edited into the article on the basis of a page at sport-interfax.ru. Is this an appropriate use of the source and is it reliable for usage in a BLP? TarnishedPathtalk 14:11, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Pinging @Vegan416 to discussion too Bluethricecreamman (talk) 14:12, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is quite revealing that you decided to remove the tag even before you checked if it is reliable source or not. Plus you falsely claimed in the edit note that it is not a secondary source whereas it clearly is. Vegan416 (talk) 14:16, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed, this particular editor is also extremely active on the Talk page (making roughly 10% of edits over the past 500) and page edit history (5% over the last 500). I'm not making accusations of WP:OWN, but I believe this editor should consider whether or not their activity could be construed as such. Kcmastrpc (talk) 14:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see any analysis. I see a mere conveying of stats. From the article (translated) "
In the category up to 66 kg, Saadat Dalgatova (Moscow region) defeated Azalia Amineva (Republic of Bashkortostan), Galina Golovchenko (Moscow) defeated Elena Vystropova (Republic of Dagestan)
" and no other commentary added. For its usage I consider this to be WP:PRIMARY. TarnishedPathtalk 14:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)- Secondary sources take information from primary sources all the time, that's the point of secondary sources. Interfax also conveys information on how the matches were judged,
In all cases, the winners were determined by unanimous decision of the judges.
Best I can tell is that this source isn't considered unreliable, and per the limited discussion available it seems that it should be considered reliable for non-controversial topics. Kcmastrpc (talk) 14:30, 16 August 2024 (UTC)- The information conveyed in that article is contradicted by a number of reliable sources. So I don't see how we can take it as an uncontroversial statement of facts. TarnishedPathtalk 02:47, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Secondary sources take information from primary sources all the time, that's the point of secondary sources. Interfax also conveys information on how the matches were judged,
- Sport-interfax.ru is a Russian news agency dedicated to sport reporting. These are not the boxers themselves or the organizers of the tournament who published it. And we are talking here about a simple fact: one boxer defeated another. What kind of deeper analysis do you expect here to make it more reliable??? Also I should note that this article is archived in wayback-machine from August 2022, i.e. 6 months before she lost to Khelif. So any idea of a Russsian conspiracy that change this article retroactively is ruled out. Vegan416 (talk) 14:40, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think concentrating on the reliability of the source is maybe missing the mark. The source cannot be used by itself to say something about the undefeated record as that would be OR although that doesn't seem to be what was attempted. Are there no reliable secondary sources which further comment on the alleged undefeated record? That would be the ideal situation. If there are none potentially we could remove the claim entirely, but it really depends on the level of coverage. IMO it gets very tricky when a claim has widespread coverage but is possibly in error but no source has commented on this error. Nil Einne (talk) 14:50, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- yeah, clarify tag may be useful, imo. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 15:03, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Bluethricecreamman: absolutely useful, as well as necessary. JacktheBrown (talk) 15:21, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Idk necessary and IDK if we needed a full quote in the original edit, but we could put in [clarification needed] to ask exactly how long Amineva had been unbeaten? for the year? the championship? Are the sourcing claiming she is unbeaten for her entire career (which seems unlikely based on these other sources)?
- Would be useful to identify and narrow down. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:01, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- The above sources only mention the Russian championship. They don't say anything about her loosing a fight in an international competition. M.Bitton (talk) 18:07, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Bluethricecreamman: absolutely useful, as well as necessary. JacktheBrown (talk) 15:21, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- yeah, clarify tag may be useful, imo. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 15:03, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- The tags are based on WP:OR, and therefore, inappropriate. Furthermore, the IBA itself describes Azalia Amineva as "undefeated":
M.Bitton (talk) 15:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)(July 18th, 2024 / IBA Champions Night) Azalia Amineva of Russia will feature in the only women’s match on the card, with the undefeated amateur facing the undefeated professional Rehema Abdallah of Tanzania in the 66kg weight category.
- How is this OR??? Assuming interfax is a reliable source on internal Russian sports results (which nobody here presented any reason to doubt) then we have a reliable source that states she was defeated in 2022. That proves that the claim she was never defeated before 2023 is false or at least questionable. Therefore a clarification tag in very much in order. Vegan416 (talk) 15:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Vegan416: +1, agree 100%. JacktheBrown (talk) 15:25, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Did you actually read the rest of my comment? M.Bitton (talk) 15:27, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I read it. It is interesting to see that now you suddenly consider the IBA to be a reliable source after you had smeared it liberally in the other talk page :-) In any case even if we consider the IBA to be a reliable source then we have a situation of two reliable sources contradicting each other. This is precisely one of the situations for which the "clarification needed" tag is required. Vegan416 (talk) 15:40, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't, but the fact that you do is what's important here. No, we don't have "two sources", what we have is multiple RS making a statement and some trying to contradict it using WP:OR (based on a couple old articles). M.Bitton (talk) 15:48, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- False claim. I never said that the IBA is a reliable source. And there is absolutely no OR here. The fact that these articles are 2 and 3 years old doesn't make them old, and doesn't make using them OR in any way. Vegan416 (talk) 15:50, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Using them to draw a conclusion that isn't made in either of them is the definition of WP:OR. M.Bitton (talk) 17:40, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nonsense. Noting that the statement "AA was defeated by another boxer is August 2022" contradicts the statement "AA was undefeated until March 2023" is the simplest logical observation. This is akin to observing that 2+2=4, and is definitely not OR. See WP:2+2=4. Therefore we have a contradiction between sources, and that requires a "clarification needed" tag. Vegan416 (talk) 19:47, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "X defeated Y" is a thing that can be true at one time and then later become untrue -- consider specifically the situation that Khelif defeated AA, and any sources that might have been written about that before Khelif's disqualification. If this is real then it will eventually be taken up by reliable sources explicitly, without requiring you to do original research (just as, for example, the dubious claim present in many early reports that Khelif withdrawing her protest made the disqualification "legally binding" has disappeared from later reliable sources, replaced with more accurate descriptions). There's nothing urgent about any of this; wait for good sources to come in instead of trying to do this kind of OR/SYNTH. --JBL (talk) 20:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- There is no OR here. I am not claiming that AA was defeated or undefeated until March 2023, I'm just pointing that there are apparently contradicting sources on this. And therefore we need to call for good sources to clarify this contradiction - which is precisely the job of a "clarification needed" note. Vegan416 (talk) 20:59, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Of course there is. For a start, "undefeated" is supported by multiple RS and the Russian-led IBA. Second, it's clear that it's referring to her bouts in international tournaments (as I mentioned previously, the two sources that you're basing your OR on are about the Russian championship). M.Bitton (talk) 21:00, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- We don't know what the RS who speak of "undefeated" mean by that exactly. Maybe they mean international tournaments, maybe not. They do not say. Assuming that they mean only "international tournaments" without any evidence is the motherlode of OR. Whereas I didn't do any OR at all. Vegan416 (talk) 21:03, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Do you know what the IBA means by it? M.Bitton (talk) 21:06, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- No, and neither do you. That's why we need the "clarification needed" tag Vegan416 (talk) 21:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't need any clarification because, given the statement, what matters is the fact that she is "undefeated" as far as the Russian-led IBA is concerned. M.Bitton (talk) 21:11, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Do you have any RS that supports your interpretation? Vegan416 (talk) 21:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not interpreting anything. The sourced statement about her being undefeated is linked to the IBA and the IBA states that she's undefeated. M.Bitton (talk) 21:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- But the article doens't attribute the claim to the IBA. The article says that she was undefeated in WIKIVOICE. You cannot do that when there are contradicting sources. At the very least you should put clarification needed tag, or attribute the claim to the IBA. Vegan416 (talk) 21:32, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- 1) The article says: "This disqualification [by the Russian-led IBA] happened three days after Khelif defeated Azalia Amineva, a previously unbeaten Russian prospect. The disqualification restored the Russian boxer's undefeated record". 2) The IBA is touting Amineva as undefeated (in 2024). M.Bitton (talk) 21:37, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- You only proved what I said. The statement "Azalia Amineva, a previously unbeaten Russian prospect" is NOT attributed to the IBA but rather written in wikivoice. And this is unacceptable when we don't know if this statement is true, because there contradicting sources. At the very least you should put clarification needed tag, or attribute the claim to the IBA. Vegan416 (talk) 07:12, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Believe what you want. I'm done here (unless another editor wishes me to clarify further). M.Bitton (talk) 12:12, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- You only proved what I said. The statement "Azalia Amineva, a previously unbeaten Russian prospect" is NOT attributed to the IBA but rather written in wikivoice. And this is unacceptable when we don't know if this statement is true, because there contradicting sources. At the very least you should put clarification needed tag, or attribute the claim to the IBA. Vegan416 (talk) 07:12, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- 1) The article says: "This disqualification [by the Russian-led IBA] happened three days after Khelif defeated Azalia Amineva, a previously unbeaten Russian prospect. The disqualification restored the Russian boxer's undefeated record". 2) The IBA is touting Amineva as undefeated (in 2024). M.Bitton (talk) 21:37, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- But the article doens't attribute the claim to the IBA. The article says that she was undefeated in WIKIVOICE. You cannot do that when there are contradicting sources. At the very least you should put clarification needed tag, or attribute the claim to the IBA. Vegan416 (talk) 21:32, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not interpreting anything. The sourced statement about her being undefeated is linked to the IBA and the IBA states that she's undefeated. M.Bitton (talk) 21:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Do you have any RS that supports your interpretation? Vegan416 (talk) 21:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't need any clarification because, given the statement, what matters is the fact that she is "undefeated" as far as the Russian-led IBA is concerned. M.Bitton (talk) 21:11, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- No, and neither do you. That's why we need the "clarification needed" tag Vegan416 (talk) 21:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Do you know what the IBA means by it? M.Bitton (talk) 21:06, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- We don't know what the RS who speak of "undefeated" mean by that exactly. Maybe they mean international tournaments, maybe not. They do not say. Assuming that they mean only "international tournaments" without any evidence is the motherlode of OR. Whereas I didn't do any OR at all. Vegan416 (talk) 21:03, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Of course there is. For a start, "undefeated" is supported by multiple RS and the Russian-led IBA. Second, it's clear that it's referring to her bouts in international tournaments (as I mentioned previously, the two sources that you're basing your OR on are about the Russian championship). M.Bitton (talk) 21:00, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- There is no OR here. I am not claiming that AA was defeated or undefeated until March 2023, I'm just pointing that there are apparently contradicting sources on this. And therefore we need to call for good sources to clarify this contradiction - which is precisely the job of a "clarification needed" note. Vegan416 (talk) 20:59, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "X defeated Y" is a thing that can be true at one time and then later become untrue -- consider specifically the situation that Khelif defeated AA, and any sources that might have been written about that before Khelif's disqualification. If this is real then it will eventually be taken up by reliable sources explicitly, without requiring you to do original research (just as, for example, the dubious claim present in many early reports that Khelif withdrawing her protest made the disqualification "legally binding" has disappeared from later reliable sources, replaced with more accurate descriptions). There's nothing urgent about any of this; wait for good sources to come in instead of trying to do this kind of OR/SYNTH. --JBL (talk) 20:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nonsense. Noting that the statement "AA was defeated by another boxer is August 2022" contradicts the statement "AA was undefeated until March 2023" is the simplest logical observation. This is akin to observing that 2+2=4, and is definitely not OR. See WP:2+2=4. Therefore we have a contradiction between sources, and that requires a "clarification needed" tag. Vegan416 (talk) 19:47, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Using them to draw a conclusion that isn't made in either of them is the definition of WP:OR. M.Bitton (talk) 17:40, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- False claim. I never said that the IBA is a reliable source. And there is absolutely no OR here. The fact that these articles are 2 and 3 years old doesn't make them old, and doesn't make using them OR in any way. Vegan416 (talk) 15:50, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't, but the fact that you do is what's important here. No, we don't have "two sources", what we have is multiple RS making a statement and some trying to contradict it using WP:OR (based on a couple old articles). M.Bitton (talk) 15:48, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I read it. It is interesting to see that now you suddenly consider the IBA to be a reliable source after you had smeared it liberally in the other talk page :-) In any case even if we consider the IBA to be a reliable source then we have a situation of two reliable sources contradicting each other. This is precisely one of the situations for which the "clarification needed" tag is required. Vegan416 (talk) 15:40, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- How is this OR??? Assuming interfax is a reliable source on internal Russian sports results (which nobody here presented any reason to doubt) then we have a reliable source that states she was defeated in 2022. That proves that the claim she was never defeated before 2023 is false or at least questionable. Therefore a clarification tag in very much in order. Vegan416 (talk) 15:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Kevin MacDonald (evolutionary psychologist)
[edit]Kevin MacDonald (evolutionary psychologist) has two issues open in the last two talk page sections, on the first sentence of the lead and on one particular footnote in the lead. Extra eyes useful. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:31, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Kristan Cunningham
[edit]Kristan Cunningham has been a completely unsourced BLP since 2008. I was unable to find anything of substance on her, just a couple clickbait/gossip articles, random quotes from Design on a Dime, or press release/hype pieces. I couldn't find anything of substance, nor any other notable works. Should she be AFD'd or redirected to Design on a Dime? Either way, it's clear she doesn't meet WP:GNG. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 18:57, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ping @Tedder:, who has edited this article multiple times. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 19:21, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh wow, 2010, I have zero memory. tedder (talk) 00:39, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Tedder: Do you think a merge or AFD is warranted? I tagged it for merge, but there's hardly anything to merge. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 23:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- @TenPoundHammer: even just a redirect is probably fine. tedder (talk) 00:06, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Tedder: Do you think a merge or AFD is warranted? I tagged it for merge, but there's hardly anything to merge. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 23:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh wow, 2010, I have zero memory. tedder (talk) 00:39, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Taylor Lorenz
[edit]I cleaned up the article, removing various parts of the article that discussed unsubstantiated rumors, used grammar to create a negative tone, remove unsourced assertions, and many other edits that were intended to ensure the article is a NPOV, is balanced (eg removed claims about her from an editorial on fox news that she rebutted) and generally cleaned up the article.
User Little Professor then reverted my edits, claiming that my edit contained "Mass introduction of unsourced material, insertion of POV" among other claims. My edits were specifically to improve tone, avoid libelous information, and were all responding directly to sources (or lack thereof).
The diff for Little Professor's edits is here.
I will grant Little Professor that I cannot decide on my own that fox news is unreliable, however that edit removed an allegation from a news organization that regularly attacks Lorenz.
Little Professor also accused me of misleading edit summaries without any evidence.
As Lorenz is a very polarizing figure, and is a well known target of online harassment and abuse, it is especially important that her article take a neutral tone and follow the rules for biographies of living persons. Little Professor's edit to remove my edits seems to be in bad faith.
The diffs for my edits are as follows:
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1240589386
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1240589622
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1240590519
4. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1240591071
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1240591321
6. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1240591714
7. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1240593893
8. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1240594080
9. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=1240594239 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leirbagflow (talk • contribs) 00:10, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Which of you is responsible for the repeated use of the verb "reveal" (compare MOS:SAY)? 100.36.106.199 (talk) 01:40, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure but I've just removed instances of the word 'reveal'. Leirbagflow (talk) 09:29, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Reading over, but hard to really get a sense of exactly what the error or BLP violation is on either side? Both versions seem basically good enough? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:22, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- The article violated (and may still violate) NPOV WP:BLPBALANCE WP:AVOIDVICTIM and a number of other policies.
- The original page (prior to my edits that little professor reverted) contained a ton of unbalanced information, was headed in the direction of WP:ATTACK and generally attempted to list all the dirt anyone could find on Lorenz. She has been the subject of a long, vile, coordinated harassment campaign that was spilling onto the article about her.
- My edits were an attempt to begin cleaning up the article. Little Professor reverted my changes and accused me of multiple things with no evidence. I've asked Little Professor for that evidence and have gotten no response (see my talk page). Delectopierre (talk) 23:32, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- I also prefer 'said' to 'revealed', generally speaking. It's more neutral; 'revealed' sounds like taking as granted that the statement is true, and also has connotations of admitting or accusing of wrongdoing.
- As for edit #3, both youtubers continue to say that they weren't contacted prior to publication. See eg [3]. And considering the circumstances I don't think we can dismiss their claims. The former wording is better; if we quote the latest editor's note then for balance we should also cite Mazeika. Hi! (talk) 00:53, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Zoe McLellan
[edit]User:Jaydoggmarco has decided to reinsert poorly sourced information we have previously agreed was inappropriate in the BLP of Zoe McLellan. The motivation behind the edit (to right a great wrong and impugn someone's reputation) is pretty clear from the edit summary: "This is an ongoing criminal case. It would be morally wrong to cover-up for her."[4] There was a discussion at this noticeboard about it late last year, where we agreed that this story, given the available sources, is not suitable for WP.[5] I'm not going to war over it, so I hope someone else will step in.--Thomas B (talk) 06:23, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I just made this edit:[6]. Previous discussion at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive354#Zoe_McLellan and Talk:Zoe_McLellan/Archive_1#Is_ZM_a_fugitive?. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:54, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with your edit, removing the content. After reviewing the sources used, they are totally inadequate for allegations of this nature. We need high quality sources for a BLP. User:Jaydoggmarco, please don't edit war this content back into the article, and please read WP:ONUS - The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. It's clear you don't have consensus to re-add this content. Isaidnoway (talk) 09:26, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Meanwhile their other recent edits include removing well sourced content. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 09:33, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- [7] is a pretty remarkable edit summary for someone who was literally blocked for 2 weeks for exactly what they’re doing now. Perhaps @HJ Mitchell: would be interested in this development. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 09:38, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Says the person who's been blocked several times. Let's not go there. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3A100.36.106.199 Jaydoggmarco (talk) 19:36, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Regardless of who did what right or wrong in the past, you User:Jaydoggmarco need to stop violating BLP as you did at Zoe McLellan or you should expect a topic ban from all living persons at a minimum but possibly just an indefinite site block or ban. Nil Einne (talk) 10:03, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Says the person who's been blocked several times. Let's not go there. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/block&page=User%3A100.36.106.199 Jaydoggmarco (talk) 19:36, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with your edit, removing the content. After reviewing the sources used, they are totally inadequate for allegations of this nature. We need high quality sources for a BLP. User:Jaydoggmarco, please don't edit war this content back into the article, and please read WP:ONUS - The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. It's clear you don't have consensus to re-add this content. Isaidnoway (talk) 09:26, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fwiw, I just read through a reddit-thread about this "case". Without solid sources, it's not something WP should touch with a barge-pole. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:07, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Phoebe Campbell
[edit]Phoebe Campbell (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I have previously removed the Personal life section in Campbell's article per MOS:GENDERID - which says - Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with the name and gendered words that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources. The source being used only says that Campbell won Best Non Binary Performer in a Play Award. The source does not say "Campbell identifies as non-binary". Would winning an award for best non binary performer satisfy self-identification per GENDERID? I don't believe it does, interested in other editor's opinions on this, as it has been added back into the article by an IP editor. I would also note that I have looked for high-quality sources for a definitive self-identification and can't find any. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- A third-party source can definitely be used to say someone is trans or nonbinary, and indeed would usually be preferrable to a first-party source, provided that the source is reliable on the topic of LGBTQ identities. And reliable sources generally aren't in the practice of outing trans/NB people these days, so self-identification is usually implied. (Contrast the case of Bubba Copeland, who we refer to by the pronouns he took publicly, not those he was outed as sometimes using in his private life.) The question here, then, is one of source reliability. I would not consider an award's title a reliable source. It is effectively a self-published source (which can't be used for BLPs), and we don't know what exact definition of "nonbinary" this private organization uses. Maybe it's different from the standard one—wouldn't be the first time that happened with an award's scope. (The Martian is not a comedy or a musical, even if the Golden Globes think it is.)I also can't find other sources, although I haven't looked very hard. I will say, I don't see any issue in saying Campbell won the award, since we're not making any statement about their identity, just stating an objective and encyclopedic fact about their career, and the win received RS coverage. That wouldn't belong in § Personal life, though. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 19:54, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway: Ah, here we go! Their profile with Spotlight says nonbinary. In the footer it says "The information in this profile has been provided by or on behalf of the member concerned." So unless there's any dispute of Spotlight's fidelity to the information people provide, that would seem adequate under WP:ABOUTSELF. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 20:19, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- That could be used to re-add. I deleted the entire Personal Life section, because the sources used did not match the claims. We still don't have a source for the claim of pronouns that they use; that was being sourced to an example of someone else using those pronouns for the subject, which may be sufficient for us to chose our pronouns, but not enough for us to say that the subject uses those pronouns. (That wordage always stumps me; people don't tend to speak of themselves in the third person, although Nat sometimes does.) -- Nat Gertler (talk) 20:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- More pedantic trans/NB people (like myself) tend to say "take" rather than "use". But yes, if you're saying that we should use they/them as an editorial decision, but not state in wikivoice that that's their preference, I agree with that. Lots of articles do that when pronoun preference is unclear. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:52, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- This look good to y'all? -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 22:42, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, source looks good, and also agree with the editorial decision on pronouns. And now we have a consensus that we can reference if need be for genderid and the usage of pronouns. I've had the article on my watchlist since I discovered a Twitter account was at one time the only source being used, and the pronouns were being changed. Thanks. Isaidnoway (talk) 00:00, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- That works! -- Nat Gertler (talk) 20:29, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- This look good to y'all? -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 22:42, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- More pedantic trans/NB people (like myself) tend to say "take" rather than "use". But yes, if you're saying that we should use they/them as an editorial decision, but not state in wikivoice that that's their preference, I agree with that. Lots of articles do that when pronoun preference is unclear. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:52, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- That could be used to re-add. I deleted the entire Personal Life section, because the sources used did not match the claims. We still don't have a source for the claim of pronouns that they use; that was being sourced to an example of someone else using those pronouns for the subject, which may be sufficient for us to chose our pronouns, but not enough for us to say that the subject uses those pronouns. (That wordage always stumps me; people don't tend to speak of themselves in the third person, although Nat sometimes does.) -- Nat Gertler (talk) 20:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Isaidnoway: Ah, here we go! Their profile with Spotlight says nonbinary. In the footer it says "The information in this profile has been provided by or on behalf of the member concerned." So unless there's any dispute of Spotlight's fidelity to the information people provide, that would seem adequate under WP:ABOUTSELF. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 20:19, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
This article has an inconsistent use of pronouns to describe either the performer or the character being portrayed, depending on the section being read.
The current version of this article has female pronouns in the introductory text and male pronouns in the biography section. It is unclear from initial reading which gendered pronoun should be used, or whether multiple pronouns should apply to this person and used interchangeably.
If this is an example of kayfabe, the article may need to be rewritten to provide greater clarity as the title currently states "performer" but the biography section may be referencing a persona, which can cause confusion.
Furthermore, the edit history for this article shows a repeated altering of the gender/pronouns for this article by third parties, but only in certain sections and which are often quickly reverted - further adding to the confusion. See the Murray Hill (performer) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) history section for details.
This is not a request for deletion, but someone with greater knowledge of this person may need to provide accurate, up-to-date information to prevent repeated edits by overzealous users. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.145.83.25 (talk • contribs) 15:43, August 17, 2024 (UTC)
2024 Kolkata rape and murder incident
[edit]2024 Kolkata rape and murder incident (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
There have been a few removals and reinstatements of the alleged perpetrator's name in the page's history ([8] [9]). This looks to me a failure to adhere to WP:BLPCRIME, but as the name has been published in seemingly reliable sources I'd like another reading before nuking the page history under WP:RD2. DatGuyTalkContribs 19:47, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I just removed the name again; I agree that it seems a straightforward case under WP:BLPCRIME to not include it, but have no knowledge of revdel policy to offer an opinion about nuking the page history. --JBL (talk) 20:19, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Does BLP policy justify suppression of well-sourced undisputed fact just because people might draw unwarranted conclusions from it?
[edit]Questions regarding content concerning Imane Khelif should not be misrepresented as hypothetical questions on other topics. More so when the issue is already being discussed in another thread.
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Suppose a public figure (such as a preeminent athlete) refuses to comment about unsubstantiated (but not refuted) public allegations made against them. Suppose that their refusal to comment is not disputed, e.g. it appears in a distinguished RS, together with a video of that refusal to comment. In such a case, does BLP policy requires us to not report about this refusal, just because some of the readers might deduce from this "no comment" response that the allegations might be true? I think this is an extreme and unreasonable interpretation of WP:BLP without any actual support in the wording of WP:BLP. WP:BLP only forbids writing unsupported claims and insinuating language, but it does not forbid publication of well established facts, no matter what some people might make of them. Also there are many examples in Wikipedia where facts like that were mentioned. Here are just a few examples:
Despite all of that it seems that some editors staunchly claim that in the case of Imane Khelif we shouldn’t mention the undisputed fact that she declined to comment on the lab tests she had or hadn’t done, because they claim some people might deduce from this that the (unsubstantiated, but not refuted) claims that she has DSD/elevated-testosterone might be true. BTW, Here are some highly reliable sources that speak about Khelif’s lack of response to the claims that she has DSD: · "Khelif has never disclosed her biological markers" (NBC); · "Khelif declined to answer when asked whether she had undergone tests other than doping tests, saying she didn’t want to talk about it" (Time); · "We do not know if Khelif and Lin are athletes with DSD because the full results of the tests are confidential, and the fighters are yet to declare them." (BBC) Comments? Vegan416 (talk) 17:17, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
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After it was mentioned at an offsite criticism forum, I have radically truncated Brides of the Islamic State as violating WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE and in the table of nationalities, WP:OR. Reporting my actions here and noting that JustStepSideways had already made less sweeping changes out of BLP concerns. Yngvadottir (talk) 02:37, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I support your edit. And thank you for doing it. JFHJr (㊟) 02:48, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looks good. Might much the same logic apply to List of Guantanamo Bay detainees? -- Nat Gertler (talk) 04:07, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure. It's a far more developed article, the list has a higher chance of approaching completeness, and there aren't the same overall issues of doubtful responsibility. Many articles have been soft or hard deleted and redirected there, in some cases indirectly; for example I see that Mohammed Al Amin was undeleted in this state (one primary source) and currently redirects not to the main list, but to the subordinate List of Mauritanian detainees at Guantanamo Bay (AfD'd on 10 August). There's less sensational press coverage. But the summaries of cases in the tables might still be excessive under BLP, and I do think those who were exonerated and don't have articles should be footnotes in the text and not listed. I think I'll leave that article to others; but there are my thoughts FWIW. (By the way, my ping above and in an edit summary should have gone to Just Step Sideways.) Yngvadottir (talk) 08:20, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Aldo Maccione
[edit]Aldo Maccione (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Some anonymous user has repeatedly edited the page with unsourced and unfounded claims the living person is a French citizen. I reverted the changes with motivation each time, but this is getting tiring. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marco.caminati (talk • contribs) 12:49, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Scott Ritter
[edit]The first sentence of Ritter's bio was recently changed to read "William Scott Ritter Jr. (born July 15, 1961) is a convicted American child sex offender". It's a little strong given the other elements of his bio. There is a discussion of the sentence at Talk:Scott_Ritter#First_sentence. Burrobert (talk) 16:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- The description is apparently accurate although over-the-top considering what the sources say he did and what "child sex offender" might mean. However, the sentence is totally inappropriate given that if that was what Ritter was known for, the article would not exist. Johnuniq (talk) 04:49, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- This discussion brought to my attention that no one had ever closed Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2024 archive § RfC: "convicted felon" / "convicted sex offender" in the lead sentence despite there being, as Hatman31 states, a pretty clear consensus. I've taken a stab at implementing a close. If no one reverts me in the next day or two I'll create MOS:CONVICTEDFELON. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 05:52, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Unemployed
[edit]“He spent most of us adult life unemployed”??? His first hit song - he was 19 almost 20”. Lame. 2600:1700:5FBF:8C10:B6:3466:A061:6956 (talk) 04:21, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- The sentence "He spent most of us [sic] adult life unemployed" does not appear in any Wikipedia article, nor if I change "us" to "his". Could you please clarify what article you're referring to? -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 04:28, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- I believe he's referring to Blueface ("he had spent most of his adult life unemployed") -- Nat Gertler (talk) 04:53, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
The citation (note 1) for the assertion that Dr Grossman "has promoted conversion therapy for gay people" is a throwaway comment in an Australian newspaper - Dr Grossman is American - that she is "famous for her approval of conversion therapy". I've just spent 30 minutes raking through google responses for <"miriam grossman" "conversion therapy"> and also following links, and I've not been able to find anything except vague assertions that she was a member of NARTH (she's not mentioned on the Wikipedia article for NARTH) and that she supports gay conversion therapy. I realise that the current trans orthodoxy results in disparagement of anyone who doesn't subscribe to it but it does look a lot like people have been trying to denigrate Dr Grossman by associating her with conversion therapy in order to undermine her position on treatment of young persons with gender dysphoria. I think the comment should be deleted from the article and the reference taken out. If there is a better reference - one which actually does demonstrate that she supported gay conversion therapy, then that should be used instead of this worthless reference in a random Australian news article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.155.97.203 (talk) 12:17, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Trans orthodoxy"? Oh dear. Drmies (talk) 12:22, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- She specifically refers to conversion therapy in the field of gender dysphoria. In fact, it's what she claims to do, as in this interview. Lard Almighty (talk) 13:36, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Emily A. Holmes
[edit]More eyes and views would be useful at Emily A. Holmes. This is an article about an academic. There is a slow-moving content dispute about whether allegations that she has bullied postgraduate students should be included. This has been discussed on the article's Talk page, but not resolved. Thanks. Tacyarg (talk) 11:27, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- There are at least four editors involved who are SPAs, whose only edits have been to the article and/or the talk page, three want to add them, one wants to remove them. If the disruption continues, you could request page protection for ECP. Another alternative would be to have a RfC. Holmes doesn't appear to be a high profile individual, so multiple sources should be used, and another thing to consider is if these allegations had a significant impact on her academic career. For the time being, I would leave them out. It also looks like the source being used was censured for having been in violation of good journalistic practice in relation to the article they published about Holmes. Isaidnoway (talk) 12:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- The article it's based upon has an update at the end pointing to a ruling by the Swedish media ombudsman about the reporting[10]. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:30, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, both, that's helpful. I'd missed the link to the ombud ruling. Reference has been added again by one of the SPAs. I've removed it and requested ECP. Tacyarg (talk) 19:47, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Even without that ruling, this person fell under WP:NPF. A more relaxed WP:PUBLICFIGURE standard requires multiple sources and that wasn't given in those edits. Morbidthoughts (talk) 22:33, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- The article it's based upon has an update at the end pointing to a ruling by the Swedish media ombudsman about the reporting[10]. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:30, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Rachel Zegler again
[edit]Not because of the "Free Palestine" thing like above, but about the inclusion of whether her comments on Snow White being allegedly problematiced sparking an internet troll review bombing is bad.
Brewing edit war, would like to know if WP:PUBLICFIGURE would apply here or if it would be better on the Snow White film. (seems there were a few sources talking about it?)
Pinging @Lisha2037 and @Spanneraol Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:15, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- No edit war from my part as I haven’t undid any edits. Another user agreed with the content you and I added. @Spanneraol seems to think it’s internet trolls doing the backlash which completely isn’t true. Various sources in Wikipedia’s list of relatable sources reported on her comments and controversy. They were taken out of context. I didn’t add anything about her comments on Palestine or how she’s a Latina; I only added the comments and behaviours directly related to the story of Snow White. Im willing to bet the movie is going to bomb because of the bad publicity, heck Disney already moved the release date cause of it, and then everyone will be going to her Wikipedia page to find what happened. Lisha2037 (talk) 19:23, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- You tried to add something, you were reverted, and you tried to add it again without discussing first.. which is the definition of edit warring. Spanneraol (talk) 20:22, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Im sorry did you check who reverted it? It wasn’t me. Please look at what you’re saying as you clearly are not. I think the general consensus is that it’s valid to add it so I’m going to add the content in again with even more sources. Unless you can find sources to back up your claim. I can also report you for edit warring as you reverting an edit made by two different accounts constituents edit warring? It applies to both sides. Lisha2037 (talk) 20:49, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- The policy is that if you add something and are reverted you need to discuss your content on the talk page without re-adding it. And since there is an ongoing discussion you should NOT be unilaterally adding the disputed content. Spanneraol (talk) 22:48, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Im sorry did you check who reverted it? It wasn’t me. Please look at what you’re saying as you clearly are not. I think the general consensus is that it’s valid to add it so I’m going to add the content in again with even more sources. Unless you can find sources to back up your claim. I can also report you for edit warring as you reverting an edit made by two different accounts constituents edit warring? It applies to both sides. Lisha2037 (talk) 20:49, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- You tried to add something, you were reverted, and you tried to add it again without discussing first.. which is the definition of edit warring. Spanneraol (talk) 20:22, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Douglas Emhoff
[edit][Douglas Emhoff] his biography states that he is married to Kamala Harris the 49th president of the United States.
An election that has not happened yet!!!!!!
Here's the link to his page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Emhoff#:~:text=Douglas%20Craig%20Emhoff%20(born%20October,president%20of%20the%20United%20States. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1004:B001:1B86:0:48:AB6C:C701 (talk) 11:04, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- It actually says "the 49th vice president of the United States". Jonathan A Jones (talk) 11:40, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Imane Khelif
[edit]Imane Khelif (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I removed a comment from the talk page of this article for violating WP:BLP per the header Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous.
I was reverted almost immediately with the edit summary citing WP:OTHERSCOMMENTS. Both of us posted on each other's talk pages at much the same time; I explained why I removed their comment, and I suggested they self-revert their adding it back. They declined to do so. Therefore, I'm coming here as the next step.
Given Khelif's public statements are that she is a woman, and especially given the fact that she is taking legal action through French courts, I feel the 'potentially libellous' reason for removing the comment applies. I would appreciate this being looked at by other editors now. JustAnotherCompanion (talk) 23:48, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- No one disputes that she is a woman and there was nothing "potentially libellous" in the removed comment. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:17, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- The conditional statement "If P then Q" is not an assertion that P is true (neither that it is false). 100.36.106.199 (talk) 00:59, 23 August 2024 (UTC)