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December 20

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Category:Jewish films

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. For the record, PetScan shows that 5 member pages are not currently within Films about Jews and Judaism: Funny Girl (film), Golem, the Spirit of the Exile, Armageddon Time, A Woman Called Golda, & Sandy Wexler. – Fayenatic London 21:20, 16 February 2022 (UTC) – Fayenatic London 21:20, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator's rationale: Recreation of a category that was moved to Category:Films about Jews and Judaism in 2012. Delete as redundant. (Note: WP:G4 deletion was declined.) - Eureka Lott 23:48, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! I made this category, I didn't know about the previous decision, as it happened 9 years before I joined Wikipedia as an editor. I made this category because I saw a need for it. Here's some of my reasons:

The way Jewish films are currently categorized on Wikipedia is in a lot of different sub-categories that don't converge, when there should be a bigger category for all of the films that cover different aspects of the Jewish experience and Jewish identity. Especially as being Jewish is both a religion and an ethnicity, it is a very complex identity with a lot of different aspects. Searching for Jewish films, I have found them filed under 'films about Jews and Judaism', but also under 'films about LGBT and Judaism' and under 'Hanukkah films' and under 'films about antisemitism' and under 'Holocaust films'. There should be a category that links all of these sub-categories, so that someone looking for films about Jewish identity, history and experience can find all of them easily. For example, if an educator wants to find films they can present to a class about the experience of being Jewish, they should be able to draw from all of the sub-categories mentioned above and many other and to be able to find them easily, without hopping between categories or going on a hunt to guess and track down all the different sub-categories that make up the many diverse angles of what's tied into Jewish identity and experience. Also, if there are Jewish film festivals, it stands to reason that there are Jewish films and people will be looking for this category. There really should be a category like that on Wikipedia IMO, and there's a reason it came up again. Lastly, I'd like to really emphasize this isn't necessarily about the Jewish identity of the film makers. Also, a movie can explore something relevant to Jewish history, but focusing on non-Jewish characters, making it a Jewish film, yet not a 'film about Jews or Judaism'! Thank you in advance for your consideration. Darren.enlight (talk) 23:55, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Marcocapelle Thank you for your POV! It's appreciated. And yet, so many Jewish films don't show up in the category you pointed out! I'm guessing because 'Films about Jews and Judaism' is not an intuitive category to add when writing about Jewish films, it might explain why many editors of pages about Jewish films fail to categories that will lead there. Some sub-categories are missing from that category, too. And also, I'll point out again that Jewish experience and identity are wider than what seems to people to be implied by 'films about Jews and Judaism'. Perhaps that category and 'Jewish films' should be unified and re-named 'Jewish films,' the more intuitive category to search for (again, especially because 'Jewish film' is a widely accepted term, as indicated by the existence of many Jewish film festivals, and even a category for 'Jewish film festivals' here on Wikipedia)... Darren.enlight (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 13:31, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Marcocapelle That's actually a part of my point! 'Desks' is a lot less ambiguous than 'tables' because it's a specific sub-category of 'tables'. In order for the category to serve the purpose of being the super-category where all the other sub-categories converge, it should be a bit more ambiguous because it is wider in nature. I personally think 'Films about Jews and Judaism' is a sub-category of 'Jewish films.' Like I said in my previous reply, I'm also okay with keeping just one of the two as the super-category, but what you said actually supports my point that it should be 'Jewish films'. Darren.enlight (talk) 22:31, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Or to give another example for what I mean, 'rabbits' is a lot less ambiguous than 'mammals', as 'mammals' must be far more ambiguous in order to contain such diverse species as rabbits, humans, horses and dolphins... Each of the latter is far less ambiguous, but that's because they're the sub-categories! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darren.enlight (talk • contribs) 22:35, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • That is a comparison that does not make any sense. Mammals is not ambiguous, it is well defined. Jewish films is ambiguous because it is not clear whether "Jewish" refers to the topic of the film, or the actors, or the producer. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:46, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, you said (and I quote) "less ambiguous". I showed why less ambiguity in the context of a super-category relative to a sub-category is actually a good thing. I didn't say 'mammals' is ambiguous, I said it was more ambiguous than any of the sub-categories that fit into it. As for your last question, that's actually not the ambiguous part about 'Jewish films'. I already said it shouldn't be about the identity of the actors, I'll add producers to that if that requires clarification, and all of my examples for why 'Jewish films' is the right super-category title were about the many different subject matters that this title covers, none were about actors or producers. Or directors or any other job tied to the making of these movies. 'Jewish films' is the more intuitive super-category for all the films that deal with subjects pertaining to Jewish identity, history, experience, tradition and so on. At no point was anything other than the subject of a film brought up. Darren.enlight (talk) 08:06, 24 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And I'll add again that there ARE Jewish film festivals (as I mentioned, there's even a category for them on Wikipedia). There is, for example, a 'Boston Jewish Film Festival'. There is no 'Boston festival for films about Jews and Judaism'. If people manage to understand which movies to expect when a Jewish film festival is announced, then this title for the super-category isn't that confusing, and I would argue that it is definitely less confusing than 'films about Jews and Judaism'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darren.enlight (talk • contribs) 08:22, 24 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'll add even more. I happened to watch the other day, thanks to a friend's rec, a rom com set during Hanukkah. The movie isn't about Hanukkah. The main characters are Jewish, but the movie isn't about them being Jewish, yet at the same time, the setting of Hanukkah is intrinsic to the plot as the suitor gifts the protagonist 8 gifts, one for each night of Hanukkah. Now, there happens to be a category for Hanukkah films on Wikipedia and it's already linked to the category 'films about Jews and Judaism' (though again, this is such an un-intuitive title, that I at first missed that this category even exists, and even when I found it, it didn't seem right, so I created the 'Jewish films' category to add this film to). But what if tomorrow someone makes a rom com set during Passover? (and there is such a film, I want to check whether it has a page and if not, create one for it) Do we then have to make a 'Passover films' category to add to 'films about Jews and Judaism'? And so on, there are so many things that don't exactly fit under 'films about Jews and Judaism' and that are included in 'Jewish films' intuitively. That Passover rom com, I can just tag it as a Jewish film without having to start asking myself what sub-category does it belong to, or have to create a new one if I find none of the current sub-categories fit. That's what a super-category is supposed to do. Darren.enlight (talk) 16:54, 24 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ultimately we disagree on whether "Films about Jews and Judaism" is intuitive. I find it much more intuitive than "Jewish films" because of the ambiguity of the latter. While you say that Jewish films aren't meant to refer to Jewish actors or Jewish producers, other wp editors may easily think so. Films about Jews and Judaism does not have that disadvantage, it is perfectly clear from the title that it is about the content of the films only. Marcocapelle (talk) 22:29, 24 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, I definitely agree that that's what we disagree on! ;) Film consumers and "suppliers" themselves seem to find that 'Jewish film' is pretty intuitive, as that is the title chosen for Jewish film festivals. No organizer seems concerned that people might find it too confusing, and those film festivals choose their featured filmed based on content, too. They have to. A lot of Jewish actors and producers work on films that can't be described as 'Jewish films' (for example, no one thinks 'Wonder Woman' is a Jewish film just because it stars Gal Gadot. In fact, probably most films have at least one Jewish cast or crew member, so that really can't be the criterion) and quite a few very famous Jewish films have non-Jews in the title roles (for example, 'The Ten Commandments', which was also directed by a non-Jew). So I really don't think anyone expects 'Jewish films' to be about the people involved in the film making. I really believe that I've addressed your concern satisfactorily. I also am pretty convinced that if 'Jewish films' is deleted now as it has been before, it's just a matter of time before someone else opens this category again and this discussion will take place once more, because this is the more intuitive term. Darren.enlight (talk) 03:53, 25 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have another reason why 'Jewish films' is different to 'Films about Jews and Judaism.' I just finished watching a movie where the protagonist's mom makes an offhand remark about her being Jewish. This means the protagonist is half-Jewish in terms of ancestry, and fully Jewish according to Jewish law. That means technically, the movie is about a Jew and could fit the latter category, but because being Jewish is in no way actually relevant to the movie, thus it can't be categorized as a Jewish film. This shows that there is a difference between these two categories! And if someone is looking for a movie where being Jewish matters, the 'Jewish films' category will give them a better indication that this specific film I watched is not relevant to their interest. 2A00:7C40:C680:4E:D524:FDD2:10:297D (talk) 03:52, 29 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:1994 by day

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 08:09, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator's rationale: (Note I think the category and everything in it should all be deleted)

Misuse of portal namespace as article surrogates. Unnecessary micro-forks of main year page so not worth moving to mainspace. Dronebogus (talk) 22:35, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

State funerals in India

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. In case anyone wants to review the potential scope to make a useful list, the diffs are here:[1]. – Fayenatic London 17:58, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:AFAPS Class 5

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: list in main article, and merge.. – Fayenatic London 15:10, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator's rationale: Personal and political connections among members of the graduating classes of the AFAPS have long influenced Thai politics, but splitting up the alumni category isn't the best way to present the content. This would be better as a list, with the members all categorised under a single alumni category. Paul_012 (talk) 14:22, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

African-American male opera singers by century

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. – Fayenatic London 22:36, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is not about discrimination but about opera. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:49, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Some would argue the truly discriminatory thing is to exclude all these people from the relevant non-ethnicity specific categories. For example Lawrence Winterswas a regular member of the New York City Opera from 1946-1955, how does it look that he is not directly in Category:20th-century American male opera singers but is only in an ethnicity specific category, when he was in fact a regular opera singer at least on the surface treated just like his Euro-American male colleges? Bear in mind that opera nad musical theatre have a much deeper and more common aspect of doing fully color blind casting than do non-musical productions. We are still leaving these people in Category:20th-century African-American male singers, so we are not excluding than from a category that covers the intersection of time and occupation, we are only excluding them from the last rung category that splits them out overly much. Note also we have no other by genre sub-sections of 20th-century African American male singers, the only other sub-cat we have is the category for the Temptations.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:01, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: already deleted (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 08:14, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator's rationale: Obsolete category. The tracking module has been removed from the template (discussion). Nardog (talk) 11:50, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy it as G6 and G7. Gonnym (talk) 12:38, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Alliance Boots brands

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. ✗plicit 02:02, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator's rationale: The category should be merged cause it is unnecessary. Ridwan97 (talk) 09:18, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fictional castles and fortresses

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Fictional fortifications. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 09:09, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator's rationale: Category:Castles and Category:Forts are both contained in Category:Fortifications by type. –Aidan721 (talk) 17:39, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Marcocapelle (talk) 06:35, 20 December 2021 (UTC) [reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Power (social and political) books

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename to Category:Books about political power. – Fayenatic London 21:00, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator's rationale: rename per actual content. Note: the fact that we do not have a stand alone article about political power (while we do have Power (social and political)) does not imply that political power does not exist as a concept. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:45, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See also this related discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:51, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bibliomaniac15 05:35, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:School shootings committed by adults

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Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 February 15#Category:School shootings committed by adults

Category:Academic works about power (social and political)

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. – Fayenatic London 16:47, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only one subcategory. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:06, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bibliomaniac15 05:26, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Power (social and political) art

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus to delete, therefore merge. – Fayenatic London 16:44, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator's rationale: merge, currently only one article. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:07, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bibliomaniac15 05:26, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Power (social and political) films

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. – Fayenatic London 16:46, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator's rationale: merge, currently only two articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:08, 28 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bibliomaniac15 05:25, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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