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Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2012 August 30

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August 30

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This is a list of redirects that have been proposed for deletion or other action on August 30, 2012

Europe's last dictatorship

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was delete. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:50, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

POV pushing, useless for encyclopedic purposes; delete — Yerpo Eh? 12:08, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In my view, redirecting from that phrase is equivalent to writing it in the opening sentence and it is a much stronger message than including it, in context, somewhere in the text. After all, the search phrases "Europe's last dictatorship" and "Last European dictator" will return useful results even without the redirects. As a compromise, "Europe's last dictatorship" as a redirect to Human rights in Belarus and "Last European dictator" as a redirect to Alexander Lukashenko#Domestic policy would be better. — Yerpo Eh? 15:27, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well the phrases (or near equivalents) are included with context in the articles. I equally in favour of retargetting "Europe's last dictatorship" to Human rights in Belarus as keeping it at the present target (as the human rights concerns aren't the only reason for the label). I'm not sure that the Domestic policy section is the right place in the Alexander Lukashenko article though - the word "dictator" isn't mentioned in that section, but it is used (several times) in the lead, First term and Foreign policy sections. Given that the lead section is the most prominent usage and the context there makes it explicitly clear who is calling him or likening him to a dictator and why (and that it is not POV on our part) I think that's the best target. This has the added benefit of making very clear who the subject is for people who have heard/read the phrase "last dictator in Europe" but don't recall to whom it was applied. Assuming a WWII or Cold War-era leader would, I suspect, be a very common thing for people not familiar with contemporary European politics. Thryduulf (talk) 22:26, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all - While POV isn't such a big problem, as demonstrated by Thryduulf, I take issue with that "last" bit: What's good for today's newspaper headline or a recent political statement is bad for an encyclopedia that's supposed to be relevant in ten years. --illythr (talk) 15:29, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    The beauty of Wikipedia being a wiki is that as usage of words and phrases change, so can Wikipedia. If it turns out that in 6 months or 10 years or whenever that the phrase "the last dictator in Europe" is being used to describe someone else then we can change the target of the redirect, write a dab page and/or add hatnotes as appropriate. What isn't going to change is that Lukashenko has been prominently described as Europe's last dictator and it is currently a well-used, unambiguous, search term (ditto all of this for Belaurs/Last dictatorship... etc). We should not inconvenience readers now because a search may not be accurate in the future (which is what you're suggesting). None of us can predict the future (WP:CRYSTAL) many titles and redirects that are unambiguous today may become ambiguous in future and primary usage can and does change - Brave (film) was an article until 2010 when the 1994 film needed to be disambiguated; Last Queen of Hawaii and Last Queen of England are currently a redirects to 19th and 17th Century women respectively, but it is not impossible that others will hold the title in future. See also User:Thryduulf/List of time-sensitive redirects. Thryduulf (talk) 17:34, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I see a distinction between "Next election in Whatchamacallit" which is a purely technical redirect, and "Last bad place/bad guy" which is a situational political slogan. In order to stay neutral in the latter case, we need to explain to the reader, who uses the term for what and why. There seem to be enough reliable sources using and describing this term group to warrant its own article, so it should be made into one (same as with Evil empire, Great Satan, and all the other notable slogans). A specific redirect would also be sufficient, as long as the term is described in the targeted section, with direct attribution. Otherwise, they should be deleted as relative, unattributed POV statements. --illythr (talk) 00:33, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    "here seem to be enough reliable sources using and describing this term group to warrant its own article..." - The difference between this an "evil empire", etc. is that there is more than one place/group that has been so described but an article about these phrases would duplicate substantial parts of Alexander Lukashenko and Belarus and make both them and the new article(s) more prone to POV bias. "A specific redirect would also be sufficient, as long as the term is described in the targeted section, with direct attribution." the terms are used with direct attribution in the targetted articles. Thryduulf (talk) 08:56, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    There's more than one person/place described as "Last European dictator/ship" (then we'll need disambigs)? Anyhow, since the batch under discussion is about one concept (political opinion on Lukashenko's rule in Belarus), the solution would be to pick the most commonly used one, mention the others and follow the example of, say, "Evil Empire", which is quite neutral in its description of the term. Otherwise, yes, retargeting the redirects as suggested by Yerpo would be fine too. To address your concern regarding the Lukashenko article sections, move the stuff about the terms from the "foreign policy" into the "domestic policy" section, since this is a criticism of the former and is not really connected to the latter (it is not his foreign policy). --illythr (talk) 00:33, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all POV. FurrySings (talk) 14:24, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • These redirects are non-neutral statements, but WP:RNEUTRAL explains that this is not a reason in and of itself to delete a redirect. There is discussion above about whether or not these are useful search terms given the facts presented, and if they are whether the targets are correct. Would you like to offer your reasoned opinions about these questions? Or if you feel that the policy/guideline should not apply in this case, please could you explain why? Thryduulf (talk) 14:42, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete basically. Or possible make a dab with Slobodan Milošević [8][9] because Mr. L had competition for that title not so long ago. And "Europe's last dictatorship" was Serbia at about the same time [10]. But we generally want to avoid derogatory expressions as dabs. A lot of people have been called a lot of things by their critics... Tijfo098 (talk) 00:06, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

LOHGBF

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was Delete. I'd assume this was created for the convenience of those editing the target page but for the rest it is deemed too vague. Tikiwont (talk) 12:36, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A highly unlikely redirect. Ironholds (talk) 11:24, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Cite journal

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was Keep all. Usefulness in creating a well referenced encyclopedia still outweighs name space issues and some technical concerns. Tikiwont (talk) 19:42, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Would it really be so painful for people typing in the extra "Category:" namespace? Confusing for new users who are expecting information on citing the web but only getting a template which is useless for them. Cyan Gardevoir (used EDIT!) 10:43, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep all Highly useful redirects that I leverage often for ease and efficiency. Using these redirects is not lazy. It's time-saving. Lazy is not citing at all or not using these templates in favor of something sloppy like simple brackets. Redirecting to citation is not elegant at all. It is a terrible suggestion as it completely neutralizes their utility. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:16, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep all I also find these redirects useful. 82.132.248.217 makes a valid point but I think that mis-usage is sufficiently rare not to be of prime concern. Jason Quinn (talk) 19:16, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Glossary of 'carny' slang

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was Keep. Tikiwont (talk) 12:41, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unllikely search term. The page was moved from Carny to Glossary of 'carny' slang in 2010 (note the improper use of single quotes) without consensus to do so. The reasoning was that the page consisted mainly of a list of carny slang at the time. This issue has since been fixed, so I moved the page back to Carny, thus making the old title invalid. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 01:12, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.

Mommy makeover

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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more redirects. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the redirect's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was Delete. Tikiwont (talk) 12:45, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Implausible redirect. Was an non-notable spam article, linked from PR web but AFD isn't appropriate now that it is a redirect. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 01:09, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.
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