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September 6

Can someone help find an obituary for Radha Charan Gupta?

According to User:Yadavjp and an IP editor, the Indian historian of mathematics Radha Charan Gupta died today in New Dehli. Can someone help me find an obituary or other public source confirming this? –jacobolus (t) 06:54, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.news18.com/education-career/doyen-of-vedic-mathematics-professor-radha-charan-gupta-dies-bundelkhand-university-mourns-9041338.html reports this, but not the site of death. --Soman (talk) 16:34, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I think this is a translation of the article in Hindi that an IP editor added to the article after I posted this request. (I think they came from here.) I'll cite this one as well, pending probably more complete obituaries to come over the coming days and weeks. (Also it seems he died at home in Jhansi.) –jacobolus (t) –jacobolus (t) 16:40, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, if anyone wants to help I threw this on Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates#RD: Radha Charan Gupta yesterday but got no replies. I'm not really familiar with how the "in the news" section works, but Gupta seems like the kind of person worth mentioning among the recent deaths. –jacobolus (t) 03:04, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a preference (I think) to highlight on the Main Page only articles of a good standard (though not necessarily only those rated as WP:GA). Radha Charan Gupta is fairly short (though not a stub) and is currently rated 'Start-class', which may perhaps need revisiting.

If anyone has the expertise and time to rapidly expand the Article, it would probably improve its candidacy for 'In the news.' {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 11:43, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

jacobolus, see this Times of India obituary. Alansplodge (talk) 08:56, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! –jacobolus (t) 14:23, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NGO inclusion

I always hear people say "NGO" to describe an organization. Are organizations such as Girl Scouts of the USA and Science Olympiad considered NGOs? 172.56.164.27 (talk) 16:57, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Non-governmental organization: While there is no fixed or formal definition for what NGOs are, they are generally defined as nonprofit entities that are independent of governmental influence—although they may receive government funding.[11] According to the UN Department of Global Communications, an NGO is "a not-for profit, voluntary citizen's group that is organized on a local, national or international level to address issues in support of the public good".[5] The term NGO is used inconsistently, and is sometimes used synonymously with civil society organization (CSO), which is any association founded by citizens.[12] In some countries, NGOs are known as nonprofit organizations while political parties and trade unions are sometimes considered NGOs as well.[13]

--Error (talk) 17:52, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 7

Leander ships?

On Spanish wikipedia article es:Leander it mentioned that the ship was finished in 1799, with data consistent with [1]. We have an article on Leander (1799 ship). Is this the same ship? The Spanish article has nothing between 1799-1803, the English article has nothing beyond 1801. -- Soman (talk) 11:55, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure, but I have posted a message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ships#Leander 1799 query in the hope that the experts there can solve the conundrum. Alansplodge (talk) 12:11, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems unlikely. I cannot read Spanish fluently, but the ship in the Spanish article appears to have been built in Greenock, Scotland, and had a 200 ton displacement, while that in this Wikipedia was built on the Thames and had a 429 or 439 ton displacement. Other details also appear to differ. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 21:01, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, definitely different ships. They both appear in Lloyd's Register 1801 here (along with a third, built in Sunderland, also in 1799). - Davidships (talk) 02:00, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Clydeships has an entry for the Leander on es-wiki. Deleted from registers in 1813. Mjroots (talk) 07:08, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 8

Motherfucker in myth

Have there been any academic monographs or papers on the concept in myth (eg Egyptian "ka mut-f", the "bull of his mother") or history (eg 1 Corinthians 5)? The term is today energetic yet meaningless; in the past not so. Temerarius (talk) 15:59, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "his father's wife" in the Bible passage presumably refers to his STEP-mother. I bet there's a huge literature on Oedipus, from Greek plays to Freud etc etc. AnonMoos (talk) 18:09, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oedipus reflected cultural anxiety about eventual incest risk from infant exposure (not resulting in death,) which was a legitimate concern at the time. That and the later Freudian ideas were quite isolated from the mythic phenomenon. And quite unlike eg Xwedodah.

Temerarius (talk) 01:30, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 9

Harry Potter sorting hat

The sorting hat classified incoming Hogwarts students as brave (Gryffindor), hardworking (Hufflepuff), intellectually curious (Ravenclaw), or ambitious (Slytherin). Maybe I'm reading too much fanfiction but I find myself applying those patterns to real life, e.g. "such-and-such jerk [politician or tech tycoon] is a real Slytherin".

Just how stupid is this? Some other schemes like Myers-Briggs are considered bogus but I see there are mappings online between that and Hogwarts houses.(personalityunleashed.com/16-personality-types-as-hogwarts-houses/) On the other hand, the five factor model is for some reason taken more seriously. Is there any reason to think Rowling was actually onto something with the sorting hat? E.g. does it reflect any known research before or after? For that matter is the whole industry of personality classification bogus? Four temperaments has some other schemes listed that I haven't looked into yet. It's hard to navigate web search results about Harry Potter because of all the merchandising that it finds. Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:8C8A (talk) 18:54, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ALL politicians are Slytherin. Blueboar (talk) 19:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that occurred to me too. I've thought sometimes there are a few rare exceptions, but that is probably naive. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:8C8A (talk) 22:38, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly not all when they start their careers; many are driven by ideals rather than ambition. But those that do not nourish the Slytherin aspect of their (presumably pluripotent) personalities will usually not survive for long in the political ecosystem, so there is an effective sieve. --Lambiam 23:39, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The categories are not mutually exclusive; I know more than a few people who are both hardworking and intellectually curious. And some folks fit in none of these categories yet are good people. We probably all know people that fit well in one of these prototypes, but I can think of many other prototypical categories: shy; indecisive; entitled and quarrelsome; nurturing; self-effacing. Rowling's categories are merely four spots in a vast sea of possibilities, deftly chosen because they serve the narrative well. --Lambiam 00:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

People are famously complicated and categorizing them to ease the mental burden of understanding them is a perennial impulse. Unfortunately, these simplifications are always wrong and often harmful. "There are x kinds of people" isn't a something you hear from Plotinus and Wittgenstein, rather t-shirts. Rowling's now cemented legacy shows her dumber than a t-shirt: she made her eponymous a cop and she made herself a common hatemonger.

Temerarius (talk) 02:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The hat doesn't say each person belongs in exactly one category. Rather, each house requires certain attributes, and students with the attributes for than one house can discuss that with the hat and make their own choice, but of course they retain the attributes. Harry Potter in the JKR books was seen as both courageous and capable of greatness, so the hat offered him Slytherin and Gryffindor. Yeah JKR is looking feeble these days, but even when the HP books were first published, they weren't very good. I read the first few of them and gave up. I find that lots of HP fanfiction is simply better than the Rowling books. Re politicians I'd say e.g. Trump is Slytherin but also has some Gryffindor attributes. I mean the guy is brazen. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:8C8A (talk) 03:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So according to you, anyone who stands up for the rights of women (in sports, prisons etc) is a "common hatemonger"? That's certainly a point of view. And whatever Rowling's literary merits or demerits, she got millions of tween and teen boys reading, when otherwise they would have been playing videogames. Meanwhile, someone who has read the first third of the first Harry Potter book should know that Rowling was not setting up four mutually-exclusive categories -- as the anonynmous IP mentioned, the Sorting Hat said Harry could go into either Gryffindor or Slytherin, and seemed to be leaning a little toward Slytherin (but Harry strongly preferred Gryffindor)... AnonMoos (talk) 18:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

iirc the hat also made ludicrously bad mistakes, despite portraying itself as infallible. The whole "your fate is sealed, but the guy deciding fate is a bit insane" thing is a pretty common British childrens lit trope, as is especially the horrific-orphan-origins-with-abusive-adopted family thing. SamuelRiv (talk) 02:03, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There do exist personality tests in psychology, with actual "sorting" of sorts. A bit of an overview of the tests that I found for free on NIH from Silverman. For example, you can see all the things MMPI has been adjusted and re-adjusted to have as its personality axes. There's also the Rorschach Test, which is not supposed to measure anything about how you think, but just to place you into population buckets (and that's pretty much what all clinical personality tests are doing, and arguably what all population-calibrated tests do in general). Then those population buckets are correlated to quite a bit of medically relevant information, like pharmacological response or prognosis, which can hopefully guide treatment.

It's not destiny, and it says little to nothing about your actual personality -- it's just that your honest score on a psychology test groups you with population A, and population A is correlated to study subpopulation outcomes X, and importantly the test is shown to be predictive and stable. Contrast those statistically important criteria that validate the tests above to, say, what has been determined about Myers–Briggs Type Indicator testing, and hopefully you'll start to get a feel for what "real" vs "fake" "personality testing" is supposed to do (afaiu). SamuelRiv (talk) 03:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Provinces of French Algeria

During the later years of French Algeria, was the region divided into provinces, or was it merely regions and departments like in the rest of France? The French Algeria article doesn't use the word "province" except for an event in 1847, and its "Government and administration" section doesn't really address geographic subdivisions. Departments_of_France#Former_departments mentions several in Algeria, but I'm unsure whether provinces existed too.

Context: 1954 Chlef earthquake begins by saying that the earthquake happened in a specific province of French Algeria. I'm uncomfortable with this introduction, because it's anachronistic unless provinces existed in Algeria in 1954. Nyttend (talk) 22:51, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Provinces of Algeria article says "1957–1974: Immediately after independence, Algeria retained its 15 former French départements, which were renamed wilayas (provinces) in 1968, for the most part, with some name changes" Abductive (reasoning) 23:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In 1954 there were still only three départements in Algeria (Alger, Oran and Constantine), approximately covering the northern third of the country; the vast and sparsely populated southern regions were simply unorganized territory (the linked article about former French départements had a map). It would be anachronistic to refer to a post-1957 département or province in an article about an event in 1954. Xuxl (talk) 13:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you scroll down to the middle of this page, there's a photograph including a map which shows only northern Algeria as belonging to Nato... AnonMoos (talk) 19:48, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 10

The Cat in Ancient Egypt by Langton

Is this work (ISBN 0710307101) on archive.org or similar for easy download? Temerarius (talk) 02:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unlikely, since it was published in 2006 by a prominent publisher (Routledge), and while it seems not to be currently available from them, is recent enough that they would come down hard on any pirate online publication. Second-hand copies are likely available from the usual sources. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.83.137 (talk) 07:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First published 1940. Do we know when the Langtons died? DuncanHill (talk) 10:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Henry Neville Langton died in 1948. Need a date for his wife. DuncanHill (talk) 10:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Blanche died in a Worthing nursing home in August 1974, so not out of copyright yet. DuncanHill (talk) 11:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found NOTES ON SOME SMALL EGYPTIAN FIGURES OF CATS By NEVILLE LANGTON but I suppose that doesn't help. Card Zero (talk) 14:34, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not the book, but I like the figures! Thanks folks.

Temerarius (talk) 20:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My annoyance insists that I note surprise at a book published 1940 not yet belonging to the public. It's offensive to the ideals of humanism and scholarship. But my thanks to those who investigated the question. Temerarius (talk) 20:18, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, a late addition to your "misdeeds of archeology" question: Sven Rosborn and the Curmsun Disc. Several Danish scholars seem determined to disbelieve this object and happy to imply Rosborn faked it. Card Zero (talk) 09:43, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you need additional help getting a resource here of any kind, check out Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange. They've generally been able to help me track down anything I've needed that was not lost to history or in a warzone. SamuelRiv (talk) 20:32, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seth / Sutekh name and origin

I've seen an odd claim on a couple pages that Set(h) and Sutek were separate and independent gods later merged. Presuming this is false (to me it resembles a cultural-ideological denial) why would someone want to claim so? I'm not sure what culture-ideology would be against a common origin, as the Biblical Seth is--obviously he must have a connection to the Egyptian Seth, but nobody bothers making that argument. So I don't see the motivation from that crowd, the typical suspect for claims with a protesting heartiness like this one. Temerarius (talk) 03:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your question is unclear, and it is unclear which (Wikipedia?) articles you are referring to, but two entities having the same spelling (in English) does not "obviously" mean there "must" be a connection. If you have a reliable source for your claim (essential) I suggest you discuss with other editors on the relevant talk page, presumably Talk:Set (deity). Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did I say I was gonna argue it? My question is a matter of curiosity, not Interest.

Temerarius (talk) 16:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The name in the Tenakh is שֵׁת‎, which should be transcribed as Shet or, scientifically, Šet. This does not correspond to the hieroglyphic spellings. --Lambiam 08:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you're going scientific, Šeṯ (or Šeth). The plosive 't' is an artefact of Modern Hebrew. ColinFine (talk) 10:58, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Begadkefat likely first occurred in spoken Hellenistic Hebrew (i.e. during the last few centuries BC), under Aramaic influence. Before that time there would not have been any fricative (spirantized) allophones. AnonMoos (talk) 18:49, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't know that! That does reduce the "obviously" of it. However, there was a fluidity of silibants in and between Egyptian and the Semitic languages early on that sometimes allows imperfectly matching correspondences.

Temerarius (talk) 16:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

US enhanced driver license REALID compliant?

Are enhanced driver licenses issued by certain US states compliant with REALID? I have read, for example, they will be accepted in the same way as REALID by the Transportation Security Administration at airports, but I haven't found any legislation saying they ARE REALID. My question is prompted by a bill in Congress, Safeguard American Voter Eligibility Act. (This is a redirect to a section in "Electoral fraud in the United States".) My concern is just because one agency considers them equivalent does not guarantee all federal and state agencies will consider them equivalent. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I understand it, if your driver's license / DMV ID card has a yellow-encircled star on it, it's compliant... AnonMoos (talk) 18:43, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For non-Americans, see Real ID Act. Alansplodge (talk) 11:14, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 12

"The Irish have a certain root"

"*The Merry-Thought*" (see Hurlothrumbo#Namesakes) is an eighteenth-century collection of graffiti. The fourth book was published around 1731, and it contains:

On Miss Sk—— at Tunbridge.

The Irish have a certain Root,

Our Parsnip’s very like unto’t,

Which eats with Butter wond’rous well,

And like Potatoes makes a Meal.

Now from this Root there comes a Name,

Which own’d is by the beauteous Dame,

Who sways the Heart of him who rules

A mighty Herd of Knaves and Fools.

From the rest of the book, it seems that rebuses on women's names were a popular subject for graffitists at the time, and most of the women were not famous. Usually the book gives the answer in the title it uses for the rebus, but in this case it doesn't, and I can't think of the answer.

We know that the name begins "Sk", or possibly "Sc" in modern spelling. It also means a root vegetable, and I can't think of any that begin that way.

If the verse had said that the woman herself ruled a mighty herd, it would have implied she had many admirers. Instead, it says she swayed the heart of someone who does. Who was that? The king at the time was George II of Great Britain. Wikipedia says his lovers were:

Caroline of Brandenburg-Ansbach, his wife;
Henrietta Howard, per English and British royal mistresses;
Amalie von Wallmoden, ditto;
Sally Salisbury, per Category:Mistresses of George II of Great Britain

none of whom has a name beginning Sk—, or shared with a root vegetable.

(It may be relevant, but probably isn't, that "potato" once meant a sweet potato, the other kind being called "Virginia potatoes".)

I'm stumped. Any thoughts? Marnanel (talk) 12:34, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Skirret? Mikenorton (talk) 12:44, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And Maria, Lady Walpole, née Skerret, not a royal consort, but she certainly swayed the heart of Robert Walpole. Mikenorton (talk) 12:48, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably the "mighty Herd of Knaves and Fools" are the members of parliament. Mikenorton (talk) 19:20, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wasn't there a scandal about Walpole going down to Tunbridge Wells to see Molly while she was taking the cure? Something in Pope (I think he was agin her), or Lady Mary Wortley Montagu (she was a friend)? DuncanHill (talk) 19:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps something to do with scorzonera, another name for black salsify (which, despite the alternative name, is not in the genus Scorzonera)? --Lambiam 20:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lady Maria certainly seems to fit given her maiden name! Thanks all. Marnanel (talk) 15:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Asquith's letters to Hilda Harrisson

One of H. H. Asquith's lady friends was Hilda Harrisson (1888-1972) (mother of Anne Symonds) to whom he left £2500 in his will. Two selections of his letters to Hilda were sympathetically edited by Desmond MacCarthy and published as Letters of the Earl of Oxford and Asquith to a Friend, first & second series, in the 1930s. I would like to know if the originals survive? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:24, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Over 360 of them were put up for auction a few months ago with an estimated price of $15,000 to $25,000, but they remained unsold. Missed your chance there. Whether there are others elsewhere I know not. --Antiquary (talk) 19:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I must hurry up and win the Lottery. DuncanHill (talk) 19:18, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 14

Territorial continuity of Transnistria

Some maps show Transnistria as two territories with a small piece of land controlled by the Moldovan gov in between (see for instance: https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Transnistria and File:Moldova adm location map.svg). The map used on the Wikipedia article uses a different color for that piece of land: File:Naddniestrze.png but there's no legend. Apparently Cocieri "remained in the area controlled by the Republic of Moldova" while nearby Roghi "is partly controlled by the secessionist government of Transnistria". Transnistria article says: "The main transportation route in Transnistria is the road from Tiraspol to Rîbnița through Dubăsari. North and south of Dubăsari it passes through the lands of the villages controlled by Moldova (Doroțcaia, Cocieri, Roghi, while Vasilievca is located entirely to the east of the road)." So who controls that piece of land? Do we have a reliable source? Should we update the maps? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 11:36, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a legend to the map in the Summary section of the page File:Naddniestrze.png; this legend is not included where the map is used on the page Transnistria. --Lambiam 03:30, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. So the legend doesn't give the colors but the borders and I understand that this piece of land is claimed by Transnistria but controlled by Moldova with the exception of two roads? If I zoom in on the Wikivoyage map, they indeed show the Western road (not the Eastern one) as part of Transnistria. It would be great to have a single map backed by RS (there's also this one, a bit different, with some English typos, and whose accuracy is contested: File:Transnistria după Asybaris.jpg). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:50, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Considering that the state of Transnistria isn't recognised by Moldova, the situation is likely to be fuzzy in some places, and indeed this appears to be one of those fuzzy places. According to some maps, the M4 road is controlled by Transnistria as a corridor through Moldova controlled land. This M4 is crossed by a farm track. From the satellite images on Google Earth, it appears that there's no proper border checkpoint at this farm track. So who controls the fields? The farmer who works them. The whole area appears to be behind Transnistrian border checkpoints, but in reality that border may not be very hard and people tend to be pragmatic. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:52, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense, thanks. M4 highway (Moldova) also says: "The road is controlled in its entirety by the government of the unrecognized state of Transnistria, as the road primarily crosses through Transnistrian territory. However, near the city of Dubăsari, it crosses the de facto border between Moldova (Dubăsari District) and Transnistria on several occasions." I found RS. I'll edit other articles accordingly. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 11:48, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Name of this headdress?

Is there a name for this headdress? She's Anne of Brittany. Seems to have been commonly worn in her era. BorgQueen (talk) 12:22, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure there is a general one. If there is, it will probably have been given by later historians. Generally, we have many unillustrated names in inventories etc, and a decent number of images, but hardly ever any source that links a name to a style. In English this is sometimes called a "French hood", but thisn't much use for France, imo, though I see we have an article. "Gable hood" for the distinctive angled English version is much better established, but I think also modern. Johnbod (talk) 12:34, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your answer! BorgQueen (talk) 12:38, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coiffe française. The article names Anne de Bretagne as the OG of this coiffe. --Lambiam 18:41, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't trust that - it's a direct translation of the en-wiki article. -- asilvering (talk) 05:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK. From a book with the title Anne de Bretagne: Sur les différentes enluminures où elle apparaît, elle porte toujours sur la tête ce qu'on appelle la cape bretonne.^[2] Also used in French in a magazine article from 1912.^[3] And in an English book entitled Womankind in Western Europe from the Earliest Times to the Seventeenth Century we find: She wears on her head the small flat hood, à la mode de Bretagne, which was called the cape Bretonne.^[4] --Lambiam 10:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 15

Mad dogs and Englishmen...

... go out in the mid-day sun, as we are told. Our article says "The saying "Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun" is often asserted to have been coined by Rudyard Kipling but no precise source is ever cited". The song came out in 1931. In the 1911 short story "Amid the Trees" by Francis Xavier we read "only an Englishman or a dog walks in the mid-day sun, runs the proverb". So, are there any earlier incarnations of the proverb? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 19:24, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In Reminiscences of the Late Thomas Barker, an 1862 paper by Frederick Shum, we have mention of "the Italian saying that 'none but Englishmen and dogs would be seen abroad in the mid-day sun'." In a para called "An Italian Midday" in the 19 May 1838 issue of The New-Yorker (not that one) there seems to be an allusion to the same saying: "There is something to an English eye very singular in the appearance of a southern city at these hours. The closed shops, the deserted streets, closed and deserted under the very mid-day sun, make it look like a city of the dead. Dogs and Englishmen, they say, are alone stirring." --Antiquary (talk) 20:14, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And the website Phrase Finder traces it back to Charles Burney, who in 1770 wrote, "He certainly over-heated himself at Venice by walking at a season when it is said that only Dogs and Englishmen are seen out of doors at noon, all else lie down in the middle of the day." --Antiquary (talk) 20:31, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 16

Cobalt child mining in Congo

Child labour has been endemic in Africa for a long time, and child laboour in cobalt mines have been used long before we had EVs. I have been looking for any solid evidence that children involved in Cobalt mining in the Congo has increased since the rise of the EV. I have still to find any. If there is solid evidence, I want to add it to the article on Cobalt. If nobody can find any evidence, then should that be added to the article? There seems to be an assumption that there is an increase, as in articles saying that "it is reasonable to assume that... ". Would anyone care to help me find evidence either way that could be added to the article and that leads to enlightenment on the subject? Star Lord - 星爵 (talk) 10:50, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The United States Department of Labor has a project to identify and reduce child labor in Congo cobalt mines called COTECCO (I'm not sure what that acronym is for). Because they work on that specific issue, they likely have plenty of documentation on the topic. My understanding is that the project ends next month, so they should still have current data. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 14:24, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the acronym is French. In neighbouring Angola the expansion might be a COmbater Trabalho de crianças [Enfants] nas minas de Cobaldo na república democrática do COngo. 2A02:C7B:223:9900:A88D:8EE5:E75B:3C1A (talk) 16:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Originally an ILO project: Combattre le travail des enfants dans les chaînes d’approvisionnement de Cobalt en République démocratique du Congo.^[5] --Lambiam 22:41, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the information. I have read all the COTECCO documents I could find on www.dol.gov on the subject. It seemed to be directed towards raising awareness levels with private and govt stakeholders in DRC. I found no mention on any change in child labour. I suppose I shall not have anything of substance to add to the article. Star Lord - 星爵 (talk) 18:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 17

People guessing keys of melodies using wrong rules

Look at Talk:Hail to the Chief.

Back in 2004, I (at that time using 66.32 and 66.245 IP addresses [I got a registered user name on January 1, 2005]) made the first post to the talk page, simply writing the melody. The key is G major.

Years later, another IP (I never bothered to study this talk page until recently) made comments implying that the melody the way I posted it was in D major, using the bad argument that a melody must start on the tonic. It's quite common for melodies to start on the dominant. Is this a common wrong rule some people use?? (Another important fact is that the post I made back then was before Wikipedia adopted a rule that you can't use a number sign for a sharp sign.) Georgia guy (talk) 00:19, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's a shame because it's an incredibly intuitive concept once it's explained the right way: it's just the note that feels like "home" for all intents and purposes! Find the note that sounds okay being hummed throughout, and that's probably the tonic! Remsense ‥ 论 00:51, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remsense, look at the melody I wrote in the talk page of Hail to the Chief back in late 2004. I'm sure the tonic is G. (If you look at lower comments in the same section you'll see someone saying information implying that D is the tonic.) Georgia guy (talk) 01:12, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies to you as a Georgia guy, but the example du jour of this has been Sweet Home Alabama, though the reasoning is at least because the chord progression seems like it outlines G (D 〃 C G → V 〃 IV I) instead of D (I 〃 ♭VII IV) to some. Remsense ‥ 论 01:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Georgia guy, I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. Are you saying that File:Hail to the Chief Chorus Sheet Music.png is in G?

I'm not sure how that could be (by the way, you would be arguing it's in G Lydian). It starts with a strong I–V–I that rather firmly establishes D as the tonic—you have to look at the entire harmony to discern the key, not just the melody. In any case, it would be rather untypical to start with the leading tone. The harmonies rather squarely fit into what'd we'd expect from a piece in D, with really no exceptions. Aza24 (talk) 03:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The melody recorded with note names in Talk:Hail to the Chief § Melody and the First Voice seen in the score at File:Hail to the Chief Chorus Sheet Music.png are not in the same key. The melody rises stepwise to the note sounded at "Chief", the fourth syllable of the text (not counting the two-bar intro "Hail! Hail!"). This note is the tonic. On the talk page of Hail to the Chief this is a G; in the printed score it is a D. The Bass Voice in the score is stubbornly D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D throughout the initial "Hail to the Chief who in Triumph ad-". This is as sure an indication of the tonic as one might hope to get from the music itself. The key signature of the score is also that of D major. --Lambiam 08:25, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aza24, the song (like most songs) can be in any key; the key depends on how the song is arranged. Here is the first line of the song in each key:

D major: A-B-C♯-D-C♯-B-A-B-A-F♯-E-D
G major: D-E-F♯-G-F♯-E-D-E-D-B-A-G. Lambiam, what notes (assuming the song is in G major) are the notes "Hail! Hail!" that make up the 2-bar intro?? (Also please note that a few years later, someone re-wrote the melody, also on the talk page but in a lower section, in a different key with a description that [if correct] would imply that the melody that I wrote on the talk page was in D; it would imply that the printed score is in A. They were using the argument that a song's first note is likely its tonic.) Georgia guy (talk) 10:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Each of the two initial Hail!s takes up a full bar of four beats. Looking at all three voices, the first is D·F♯·D and the second A·E·C♯. Although the first is not a full triad I interpret this as the progression I–V, which is followed by D·F♯·A, unambiguously I. Melodically, A–C♯–A wouldn't have worked well; D–C♯–A is much better. --Lambiam 16:04, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lambiam, please note what this discussion is intended to be about. Look further down the talk page (below where I put the melody in G major) and you'll see what I mean. You'll see a comment made by an IP who said something that if it were true, it would imply that the way I put the melody at the talk page (which is in G) was in D. Georgia guy (talk) 16:09, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What is the question? If you want me to comment on a comment by someone who commented on your comment, could you be more precise than "further down the talk page", such as indicating in which thread by which IP when? --Lambiam 16:32, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lambiam, look down the talk page for a post dating to late 2008 by the IP 90.24.229.69. (The 66. user who put the notes to the song in G major in late 2004 was me before I got a Wikipedia user name on January 1, 2005.) Georgia guy (talk) 16:34, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The post starting with "Wrong image" then. Could you remind me what the question is? --Lambiam 18:59, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lambiam: Yes, look at what someone wrote just after the words "Wrong image". The IP put the melody in a different key but claimed it was in the key that would be equivalent to the statement that the melody I put on the talk page in 2004 was in D major. Please read it. Georgia guy (talk) 19:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did read it. Now what is your question? --Lambiam 19:44, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now, the user appears to be thinking that their set of notes of "Hail to the Chief" is in F, not B♭. This is a mistake. I want to know if this is a common mistake. Georgia guy (talk) 20:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a common mistake among people who know something about Western music theory. It is also not a common mistake among people who know nothing about Western music theory and therefore refrain from making statements about what key something is in. But then there are some people who know nothing about Western music theory and yet are happy to make pronouncements that only display their ignorance. I have no material on how common this is for this specific type of error. --Lambiam 22:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Infralapsarianism infiltrates inter-disciplinarily. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trump denied security clearance?

Suppose Donald Trump is inaugurated next January. Is there any way he could be denied any security clearance or information, due to his criminal convictions and so on? Could there be any restrictions that he could not overturn? Hayttom (talk) 12:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. --Golbez (talk) 13:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The president can constitutionally declare that there is an insurrection and, using the powers of the Insurrection Act, order the military to arrest their opponents. They need not involve Congress. If this doesn't work as planned, it can only be because of insubordination --Lambiam 16:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are acts of the president susceptible to Judicial Review? 2A02:C7B:223:9900:A88D:8EE5:E75B:3C1A (talk) 16:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By a recent ruling of the Supreme Court, the president enjoys absolute immunity for official acts, which this would be. In light of this, the question is purely theoretical. There is no way that SCOTUS, if not already arrested, would seek to review the acts (and if they do, the president can have them incarcerated too). --Lambiam 16:43, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First, it's presumptive immunity for official acts, and absolute for so-called core acts of the office. The actual status (both legal and practical) of the notion of arresting/harassing/killing political opponents was disputed at the day of the ruling; I don't think anybody has seriously brought up the notion that other branches of government can be extralegally rounded up. Also, according to the Trump v US article you linked (but I didn't read the source and I probably don't understand it), Justice Jackson argued that legislative impeachment powers were reduced relative the judiciary in checking executive abuses of this nature after this ruling. So I'm guessing this is all way more complicated than all this, even if just theoretical. SamuelRiv (talk) 19:09, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually only Golbez (talk) seemed to understand my question (although they were not very generous with elaboration) so I will try to ask it better: could any institution like the CIA withhold (or try to withhold or at least demonstrate going through the motions of withholding) a president's security clearance on grounds such as their criminal history? Hayttom (talk) 17:47, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. I mean, I suppose employees there could try, but they would be failing their job and thus should be fired. --Golbez (talk) 18:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to any source online, no conviction jeopardizes the president's security clearance because he doesn't have any (and keep in mind he gets classified briefings still, and would again be automatically granted them now as the major party's nominee, and his suitability to receive them even came up as an issue in 2016.) SamuelRiv (talk) 19:13, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit conflict): Addendum to my above: I don't know to what extent this is entirely norms, or norms made legal by default, just like there there ain't no rules says a dog can't play basketball. SamuelRiv (talk) 19:24, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the 2016 source refers to presidential candidates. Hayttom (talk) 19:20, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Once nominated, the major party candidates get classified briefings. As do presidents. As do ex-presidents, for life. SamuelRiv (talk) 19:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(I believe I remember George H. W. Bush being quoted a few years before he died that he was no longer in the loop. But I imagine that was by his own request.) Hayttom (talk) 20:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so we are being told that Trump (as an ex-president, as a candidate, and in the terms of my question, a president) cannot be denied classified briefings. Hayttom (talk) 20:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC) [reply]

Resolved

Buddhist monks and nuns theravada mahayana vajrayana

Is there website where they show Buddhist monks and nuns of Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana look like and dress like? Donmust90 Donmust90 (talk) 18:24, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can do a web search for images of members of those schools. You can also see images in our articles at Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana. However, it's not as simple as that as their dress depends which country they are in and which particular branch of those schools they belong to. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:15, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 19

Plan Tamaulipas

I am editing Hurricane Francine and I came across a Mexican organizations known as plans (Tamaulipas and DN-III). I am not sure what they are and I don't know how to research it as I do not speak Spanish (especially not Mexican Spanish). ✶Qux yz ✶ 00:32, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reason that the subject line is for specifically Tamaulipas was because I changed the focus of the topic of this request midway through upon realizing the DN-III wikilink goes to DN-III-E which I am not sure is the same. ✶Qux yz ✶ 00:36, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Plan Tamaulipas: A New Security Strategy for a Troubled State, published by the Wilson Center. Plan DN-III-E , Civil Relief and Aid Plan for Disasters, which is Annexe E of Plan DN-III (National Defence Plan No. III). DuncanHill (talk) 10:08, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Medusa with a snake body

What was the earliest known depiction or attestation of Medusa (or any other Gorgon) being described as having a snake's body from the waist or hips down? I remember being told by someone at a younger age that sometime after the Roman Republic's era was possibly the first time that Medusa with a snake body was first told, but that depiction remained an uncommon thing until Ray Harryhausen's 1981 film Clash of the Titans permanently cemented the "snake-lower-half" look over the "ugly monstrous woman" look as the default imagery that comes to mind in modern popular culture whenever someone thinks of the names "Medusa" or "Gorgon". I would like to know if there is any merit to this claim; was it invented later-but still long ago such as in Renaissance or Early Modern times, or was it purely an invention by Harryhausen that everyone just latched onto?

And before anyone brings it up, yes, I am aware that some of the oldest known physical descriptions of Medusa were inconsistent between writers of antiquity, with the most descriptive being that of a hideously ugly woman with brass hands, brass or golden wings, boar tusks, writhing snakes for hair, and a stretched tongue, as depicted on surviving pottery and atop the temple to Artemis at Corcyra. I also understand that 3500-or-so years of orally passing down the same tale is bound to create some changes and mutations to the original telling along the way; for example, the hideous monster look started to be shed away in favour of just being a young woman who happens to have living snakes for hair sometime during the Renaissance.

Again, what I am asking for is the earliest known or surviving Medusa description that has her with a snake body with snake-hair, as is common in modern culture now, rather than as just an ugly woman with snake-hair. 72.234.12.37 (talk) 10:53, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Peace Day 1919

I am putting together an article for Peace Day 1919 on 19 July of that year, which was celebrated in London with a large military parade, sometimes described as "the London Victory Parade". I am having trouble finding the exact route of the parade. I know that the saluting base was outside Buckingham Palace and that the route included Lutyen's temporary Centaph in Whitehall. In Category:1919 London Victory Parade [6], there are photos of a rehearsal marching from Buckingham Palace to the Tower of London and other photos of troops and tanks crossing Westminster Bridge. Any further help would be greatly appreciated. Alansplodge (talk) 11:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"a seven- mile route that began at the Albert Gate to Hyde Park, turned south to cross the river, winding through London south of the Thames, before eventually returning across Westminster Bridge, past Parliament and Big Ben and turning north onto Whitehall, where the temporary Cenotaph had just been unveiled, into Trafalgar Square and onto the Mall, past the Victoria Memorial where King George V and the royal party would take the salute, then along Constitution Hill to the finish back in Hyde Park". Will look further later. DuncanHill (talk) 11:32, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, 1 Albert Gate was and still is the French Embassy, a fitting starting point. DuncanHill (talk) 11:45, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Page 3 of the Daily Mirror of 17 July 1919 has: "The line of route is:- From Kensington Gardens by way of South Carriage Road (Hyde Park), Albert Gate, Knights- bridge, Sloane-street, Pont-street, Chesham-place, Belgrave-square South, Upper and Lower Belgrave-streets, Buckingham Palace-road, Victoria- street, Vauxhall Bridge-road, Vauxhall Bridge, Upper Kennington-lane, Kennington-road, Lambeth road, Westminster Bridge, Bridge-street, Parliament-street, Whitehall, Charing Cross, Admiralty Arch, The Mall, Constitution Hill, Hyde Park- corner, Apsley Gate, Hyde Park to Kensington Gardens." - Dumelow (talk) 11:49, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Page 16 of The Times for the date of the parade has a map and anticipated timings for each location. These should be available from newspapers.com via WP:TWL - Dumelow (talk) 11:53, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The parade is covered in some of the books I used when I took The Cenotaph to FA. See the "war memorials" and "social impact of WWI" sections of User:HJ Mitchell/Library. If you started an article, I'd contribute what I could or if you were looking for something specific I could check the books but I have limited time until after the weekend. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:13, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Carrie Chapman Catt's puzzling get-up

Here we have a picture of Carrie Chapman Catt (on the right, I think) and Anna Howard Shaw. Dr Shaw is wearing her doctoral gown. What on earth is Ms Catt wearing? Marnanel (talk) 15:12, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could it be her "ratification dress" referred to in the article? Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any other images of it, though it was said to be sapphire blue rather than white. Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:14, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

During women's suffrage demonstrations, women often wore white dresses. It isn't likely a special type of dress. It is white, which is a symbolism they wanted. You can find many images of women's suffrage marches where nearly all of the women are wearing white dresses. This document begins with another view of the march where you can see many other women dressed in white. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 17:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The woman on the right is wearing a cape with a flag design below the left shoulder, but what's underneath the cape seems to be an ordinary semi-formal 1917 white dress, as far as can be seen... AnonMoos (talk) 17:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 20

Split from BNP 2001-2006

I am just curious: how many parties split from Bangladesh Nationalist Party (BNP) during their term from 2001 to 2006? So far, I know that there were two: Liberal Democratic Party lead by Oli Ahmed and Bikolpodhara party lead by Dr. badrozzoha or what ever his name was. 2607:FEA8:55E2:8B00:49D0:D87A:E12A:81A2 (talk) 01:45, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]