Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums

The Needle Drop: news section

This is a continuation of this discussion. Fantano has since closed applications for his news reporting section. I would like to know if it is reliable/credible or not (excluding pieces written by Fantano himself).

Pinging all users involved in the prior discussion:
QuietHere, Caro7200, Koavf, AstonishingTunesAdmirer, and Skyshifter. — 💽 LunaEclipse 💽 ⚧ ^{【=◈︿◈=】} 18:29, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

This doesn't help much. We need to know things like what's their editorial policy and do they have credentialed and experienced staff. Sergecross73 msg me 19:15, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I actually talked about that in the other discussion:

"Quick update: Applications have closed. As for Fantano's new staff, it seems ok. One of the staff members there has written for a handful of sources that are considered by Wikipedians to be of poor and/or questionable quality, which could raise some potential concerns. The editor in chief, however, is a writer at Beats Per Minute (reliable per this discussion), so I would expect some decent quality control going foward with the news section. Said editor's profile on the website can be found here."

— (pasted from the earlier discussion)

I was unable to find any editorial policy. 💽 LunaEclipse 💽 ⚧ ^{【=◈︿◈=】} 20:08, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

That's...not much of an argument for its staff...or anything for their editorial policy. My stance remains unchanged. I don't find it to meet our reliable source standards. Sergecross73 msg me 21:05, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Seconding Serge here. We're gonna need a lot more. Much better established sources have been rejected before. As I said before, I wouldn't get my hopes up. Perhaps some day it will grow into reliability, but for now I don't see it. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 23:04, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy link to the site in question The Needle Drop (which wasn't clear in the discussion, either).

No, thanks, it looks like just some site by some guy. There are a lot of those, and they're not all reliable. This one lists no policy, and no staff except Anthony Fantano, on a page claiming the site to be "the premier destination for music reviews, news, and insights" without telling us why, or when it surpassed Rolling Stone or Billboard or similar. Via a link in the header, I am apparently able to "Join", but there's no hint as to what that gets me. A chance to post my own reviews? No clue. My conclusion: drop it. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 17:18, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, no offense to him, but he's essentially a Youtuber that has hit it big with popularity. Which is why discussions keep arising on him - he's popular and prolific. But he has the same problems as Youtubers go - they self-publish without any editorial control, say outlandish things for views and engagement, etc etc. Sergecross73 msg me 17:45, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for being inactive, but here is a list of the news section authors and their credentials I could find:

• Laviea Thomas: Wrote for The Line of Best Fit, NME, The Quietus, etc. ([1])
• Jeremy J. Fisette: As mentioned before, he is an author at Beats Per Minute (see blockquote above)
• Daniel Gonçalves Benítez: Was unable to find any credentials
• Aaron Cousin: No credentials I could find.
• Dana Badii: Unclear credentials, but this ResearchGate page claims they work in the music department of UCLA
• Jasper Willems: Wrote for Beats Per Minute, Drowned in Sound, The Quietus, etc. ([2])
• Daniel Bromfield: Wrote for Pitchfork, Resident Advisor, and Atlas Obscura ([3])
• Tyler Roland: Seemingly wrote for this one satirical website, but I couldn't find anything relevant
• Thomas Stremfel: Wrote for publications like Spectrum Culture ([4])
• Albert Genower: Wrote for Cherwell and The Isis Magazine ([5])
• Nickolas "Saz" Davis: Wrote for TheGamer and GameRant ([6] [7])
• Alan Pedder: Wrote for Flipboard and The Line of Best Fit ([8])
• Dylan Tarre: No credentials.
• Tony Le Calvez: Wrote for this site
• Alex J. Robinson: Freelancer, but he only mentions TND ([9])
• Wade Stokan: Writes for Biff Bam Bop ([10])
• Will Floyd: No prior credentials ([11] [12])
• Alondra Sierra: No credentials
• Steve Acedo: No prior experience ([13])
• Tin Lee: No credentials
• Lurk - Psudonymous writer. No credentials.

— 💽 LunaEclipse 💽 ⚧ ^{【=◈︿◈=】} 23:56, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

(Pinging Sergecross73 and QuietHere) — 💽 LunaEclipse 💽 ⚧ ^{【=◈︿◈=】} 23:58, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, I'd say we should evaluate on a case-by-case basis in the same way we do for Fantano's reviews. — 💽 LunaEclipse 💽 ⚧ ^{【=◈︿◈=】} 12:49, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

This helps, yes, but we still don't have any published editorial policy, and that is even more important. That they can hire experienced writers is wonderful for them, but it doesn't mean the site itself is any good. As is, I would reject this source altogether. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 17:11, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

And it also feels like majority of the staff hasn't written for sources we call RS's... Sergecross73 msg me 18:57, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Now that you say that, I actually counted, and there's only five or six (if you include Spectrum Culture) writers here with bylines we count as reliable, and that is very few for a list this long. It might still be alright if we knew anything else, but again, the all-important editorial policy is missing. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 23:15, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Diffuser.fm

Is the netzine diffuser.fm a reliable source whose perspectives constitute due weight? It's being used on multiple music articles I regularly patrol, and a quick search of Wikipedia shows that it is being used on hundreds of articles. I have no idea if this website is reliable, while it is owned by Townsquare Media, who publish WP:RSMUSIC sources like Loudwire and Ultimate Classic Rock, what does not inspire confidence in me is the fact that they only list one staff member on their staff and contact info page [14]. For all I know, this is an RS that belongs on the RSMUSIC list alongside the above mentioned sources, but given how widely it is used on Wikipedia, I would like to establish a consensus here, and so I shall leave this up to others. JeffSpaceman (talk) 13:00, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I was under the impression it was usable. Pretty certain I've used it in the past without issue. Not sure I've ever done a full review of it though. Sergecross73 msg me 14:29, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe it can be considered reliable. I've found it's similar to Ultimate Classic Rock, which is considered reliable. I used this Diffuser article when writing Duran Duran (1981 album); the article was written by respected journalist Annie Zaleski, so the site does have known editors who write for it. I think that would constitute reliability. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 16:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Considering that there appears to be consensus in this thread that it meets WP:RS, combined with its longstanding use on hundreds of articles, would anyone object to me adding it to the WP:RSMUSIC list? Pinging @Sergecross73: and @Zmbro: for input here. JeffSpaceman (talk) 12:28, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Nope – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 20:32, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I support adding it too. Beyond what was said above, their Senior Editor Tim Karan has a lot of good professional credentials as well. Sergecross73 msg me 17:07, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Template talk:Infobox artist discography § Template-protected edit request on 9 October 2024

 You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:Infobox artist discography § Template-protected edit request on 9 October 2024, which is within the scope of this WikiProject. There is a request to change the order of the infobox on discographies and to include mixtapes, demo albums, remix albums, and promotional singles. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 19:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Would anyone mind closing Talk:Brat_(album)#Merge_proposal

I know involved editors can close merge discussions, but I feel weird about it since I'm the last major !vote. Alyo (chat·edits) 13:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Sure   — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 18:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Anyone like to cite some Turkish albums?

I am looking through https://bambots.brucemyers.com/cwb/bycat/Turkey.html#Cites%20no%20sources but I am not really interested in the many completely uncited Turkish music articles. Perhaps one of you might be Chidgk1 (talk) 15:07, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Identifying reliable sources for music

As part of identifying public relations editing at the article Symphony of Heaven and numerous articles created by the same editor, I'm trying to identify which sources are truly reliable. It was suggested that I ask here. I already started the discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Identifying_reliable_sources_in_Symphony_of_Heaven_and_music_articles_in_general, so I'm linking there. Some of the sources appear to be closely related vanity zines directly related to the band/the promotion company or band members with masthead composed of bamd members. Graywalls (talk) 18:14, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Album categories by genre

An editor is bulk-adding these – [15] – but isn't there a guideline for categories that stipulate they go through the artists' article instead, or something? It's been a very long time since I saw it. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:30, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I've always figured that if the album had a sourced mention of being a certain genre, that such a category was warranted, and if it didn't, it should be removed. I'm not aware of any actual guidance though, I've usually just operated off of a combination of WP:V and WP:DEFINING. Sergecross73 msg me 19:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I think what you might be thinking of is that the categories go on the artist's albums category (Category:Overkill (band) albums) in this case), assuming they apply to the artist's discography as a whole and not just a one-off project like a Christmas album. I don't know anything about having to apply to the artist's article. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 15:48, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Music/Archive_38#RfC_on_categorizing_all_works_by_an_artist_by_genre, "There is a clear consensus that artists should not be characterized by genre, at least not routinely." We should be categorizing albums and other works by genre, based on reliable sources. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:12, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Wearethepit.com

This is a website that now redirects to a YouTube channel [16], which I see is being used on several Wikipedia articles (see here). My problem with the site is that, outside of it appearing to be a self-published source, a lot of what I have found from it appears to be clickbait churnalism. For some examples, see [17], [18], [19]. They were really into using clickbait headlines and over-the-top language to try and sensationalize content (see the third link), and all of these factors lead me to believe it is WP:NOTRSMUSIC. I intend to go and remove it from articles (particularly BLPs), but before I do that I would like to ask if anyone objects to my removals, or might want to argue in favor of this source being usable? JeffSpaceman (talk) 21:57, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

P.S., compare with Alternative Nation, Cryptic Rock, and Metalheadzone, all of which are on the NOTRSMUSIC list and are all similarly designed to recycle and republish content for the sake of profitability. JeffSpaceman (talk) 22:00, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with everything you've said. Sergecross73 msg me 17:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

User:Sergecross73, I want to ask, given that you were present in discussions for all of the sources I've compared this to above, are there any other clickbait rock/metal sites along these lines we should be treating similarly? JeffSpaceman (talk) 18:16, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I would say those are some of the worst offenders. I've been meaning to look into "Distorted Sound Magazine", which is used semi-regularly, and seems a bit iffy upon first glance though. Sergecross73 msg me 00:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Out of curiosity about this source (which I had never heard of before you mentioned it here), I checked out their "about" ([20]) and contact information pages ([21], and the fact that there is no information provided about their staff's credentials (outside of "founder," "Heavy Music Editor," "Social Media Editor," et al) is a sign that they very likely fit the criteria of WP:NOTRSMUSIC. Because of this, I think I will also find information from this website and remove it (or at the very least the citations, in instances of superfluous WP:REFSPAM). For now, I think I will focus on seeing if it is used in BLPs, and remove citations to it from those articles. JeffSpaceman (talk) 00:54, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I removed it from three articles, two of which are BLPs ([22], [23], and [24]), and I have found that most uses of this source seem like refspam for content supported by other, more reliable sources (see the first and third diffs linked), or for content that is verified in a different section (in the case of the second one). I see no reason to believe this is any different from Alternative Nation, Metalheadzone, and their spammy ilk, and it leads me to believe neither We Are the Pit nor Distorted Sound fit the criteria of what is expected of WP:RSMUSIC sources. @Sergecross73:, do you mind me adding We Are the Pit (and potentially even Distorted Sound) to the NOTRSMUSIC list? JeffSpaceman (talk) 01:07, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Rolling Stone returns to star ratings in reviews

I didn't see anything on this talk page in the last few months worth of archives, but in case it escaped anyone's attention, Rolling Stone has returned to having a 1-5 star ratings in their album reviews, after 2 years of following a different system: [25] Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 17:47, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for heads up! I don't read read their reviews for new music, so I wouldn't even know. And of course they had to screw it up: they don't show all 5 stars (including empty ones), so 4/5 looks like just four stars, 3/5 is just three stars, etc. Not really surprising, though, as their website is pretty bad. They used to have a lot of old reviews, but decided to nuke them, so now you have to search the Web Archive (not the easiest task as they reworked the site several times). AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 19:38, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Source check: Super Deluxe Edition

Is this a reliable source? https://superdeluxeedition.com/ Album news, reviews, etc. Smells reliable to me. Editor is Paul Sinclair, who has written in RSs such as The Guardian, The Times, Sydney Morning Herald, etc. Popcornfud (talk) 13:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I've always seen it as reliable, partly due to the editor in question. Plus, the website typically only posts articles about one thing (expanded editions of already released albums). On top of that, most of the info he posts is correct, so I don't see why it wouldn't be reliable. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 21:46, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:An Introduction to .....#Requested move 22 October 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:An Introduction to .....#Requested move 22 October 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Raladic (talk) 00:46, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Source eval: NTS Radio

British online radio service established in 2011. Cited in Rolling Stone, NME, Pitchfork, and DJ Mag.

Credentials (these were the only ones I could find, I'm not joking):

• Niall McKenna: wrote for publications like the Globe and Mail and Dazed magazine (source: [26])
• Lorraine Petel: no prior experience (source: [27])
• Amir Abdullah: no prior experience (source: [28])
• Kasra Vaseghi: no prior experience (source: [29])
• Will Dickson: Wrote for publications like the Independent and the Guardian (source: [30])

I would like to know if this source is reliable. Thanks, — 💽 LunaEclipse 💽 🌹 ⚧ ^{【=◈︿◈=】} 23:50, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't know much about NTS, but why would it be a reliable source, or even a useful one? Looks like most of the hosts, or at least the ones listed in the NTS Radio article, are musicians and not journalists. Not to say that musicians aren't SMEs about music, but how often would you need to rely on something one of them says anyway? Perhaps if you provided examples of what you had in mind it would be more clear, but I'm not sure I understand the use case. And you haven't made a convincing case with this list of credentials, nor have you provided any evidence of editorial oversight. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 01:44, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Help reference albums in the WikiProject Unreferenced Articles #NOV24 Backlog Drive

Hi WikiProject Albums, I’d like to invite anyone interested to join the WikiProject Unreferenced Articles #NOV24 Backlog Drive. Many album articles are currently tagged as unreferenced, and this drive is a great chance to help improve them. You can see the list of unreferenced album articles here. The drive runs through November, and any help adding realiable sources is welcome—whether you add one source or tackle several articles. Thanks! Turtlecrown (talk) 13:07, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

"Additional writers" credits

It's been a while since I've last done any editing for album articles, and upon my return I've noticed a curious trend. In the past few years, editors have been replacing track listings which look like this:

All tracks are written by Alan Smithee, except where noted.

No.	Title	Writer(s)	Length
1.	"The Phony Song"
2.	"I'm Not Even Real"
3.	"Imposter"	Smithee, John Doe
4.	"He Made it All Up"
5.	"Don't Give Me a Made-Up Song Title and Tell Me it's the Beatles"	Smithee, Vic Stench

with ones that look like this:

All tracks are written by Alan Smithee, with additional writers noted.

No.	Title	Writer(s)	Length
1.	"The Phony Song"
2.	"I'm Not Even Real"
3.	"Imposter"	John Doe
4.	"He Made it All Up"
5.	"Don't Give Me a Made-Up Song Title and Tell Me it's a Beatles Hit"	Vic Stench

This seems unnecessarily confusing and misleading at best (I think it's pretty obvious why, but if necessary I can elaborate), so at first I just reverted these "Additional writers" style credits without much ado. But I keep on bumping into them everywhere, which lead me to wonder if just possibly there could have been a consensus to convert track listings to this format en masse. Someone bring me up to date here. Martin IIIa (talk) 02:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm unaware pf any past discussions on this matter, but I definitely agree that the latter style is worse. Mach61 02:34, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's that confusing myself, but maybe my eyes are sharper than others. While I'm okay with the latter, I wouldn't object to ditching this informal practice. mftp dan ^oops 02:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not just a matter of having sharp eyes; I don't see how someone could know that "additional writers" means "additional writers on a song" (i.e. co-writers with Alan Smithee) and not "additional writers on the album" (i.e. people other than Alan Smithee who wrote songs single-handedly) unless they already knew what the album writing credits are. Martin IIIa (talk) 04:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I've used the latter a few times, but primarily in cases where there are far more than two writers per track. Wasteland (Brent Faiyaz album), for example, includes at least four writers on 3/4s of the tracklist, and none with just the one that's being removed, so the former style would be useless to that page. To my eyes, it's a lot more legible than just seeing the one name repeated ad nauseam for every track. And I think your "additional writers on a song" point assumes less of Wikipedia's readers than they deserve; so long as the writing credits are listed adjacent to the appropriate tracks, why shouldn't we expect people to reasonably assume those credits apply only to those tracks? Frankly, I don't see a problem with it. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 04:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Alice in Chains (album)

I am working on a translation of this article and hope to have an FA before its 30th anniversary a year from today. I have been relying heavily on the Russian-language article's sources (c. 2020) for the work I have done so far, but I'm trying to get a little feedback on the issue of structure.

Could I feasibly pass a Recording section into different subheadings? The Russian article is a treasure trove of fascinating information, but I would want the comfort of knowing that such a massive project would be acceptable, because I've no memory of seeing a recording section on enwiki so big that it needs that many subheadings, but I imagine without them the section would look far too bloated. (Note: the recording section is far from even being finished, and it's already looking real big in English.) mftp dan ^oops 02:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I see no problem with breaking up a recording section into subsections so long as there's enough sourced content to call for it. I've even seen a few examples of this in FAs, such as The Dark Side of the Moon. Martin IIIa (talk) 04:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)