Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/2024 review

Phase II format

I've just closed proposals 16 and 16c as successful but requiring further discussion of specifics in Phase II. What's the format for that going to be? – Joe (talk) 09:56, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@Joe Roe: I'm going to open a subpage, probably at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Administrator recall. If I'm reading your close correctly, there is consensus that the community should be able to force an RRfA, but no consensus as to the initation threshold or the RRfA pass threshold? Of the six points in 16c, which have by-default consensus (pending amendment) and which have no consensus? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 10:23, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

No, my reading is that there is no consensus for how to initiate an RRFA at all – just that the community should be able to do it somehow. 16c has support but I don't think it amounts to a consensus yet. It also seems likely that now people know that it's going to happen, there will be more ideas about how it should happen, so I'd suggest leaving the door open for new (sub)proposals. The general sentiment across all three discussions was that quite a bit more workshopping is required. – Joe (talk) 10:32, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Subpage created; I'll open it once prop 13 is closed, since that's the only one that looks like it needs heavy-duty refinement before possible implementation. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 11:41, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I would very much prefer some discussion period before going all in on Phase II. Probably a free discussion week or so? We possibly might need to have a poll on every suboption of the proposal, but I am concerned this approach will result in passing the most watered down aspect for each subproposal. Soni (talk) 11:58, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I'll think about it? It might be good to let people have a place to shake out some of the knucklehead ideas first, but that sounds like it could pretty easily be a low-trafficked page and then we lose a week on it. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 12:15, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I'll be frank, I am not convinced you should be the sole authority making structural decisions about how proposals are made and implemented. I love the progress we've made, but ultimately this should be a community thing. I think there's value in at least having open discussion, to gauge out people's initial ideas. Soni (talk) 13:11, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I think opportunity for discussion should be included at the start of phase 2. I think having some open discussion will help lay the groundwork for better proposals, before a list of support/opposes are made that make it harder to evolve proposed changes. Having this discussion on the phase 2 page will avoid dissipating interest. For better or worse, though, concrete proposals focus people's attention. So although personally I would like participants to take more time with workshopping ideas, I acknowledge that most people will want to get to the support/oppose period sooner rather than later. isaacl (talk) 18:11, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I'll add to this part of the discussion a quote from Joe's closing statement: "Phase II of this review should therefore consider specific proposals for RRFA initiation procedures and further consensus should be sought on which, if any, is to be adopted." I think it's self-explanatory, and should be the way to go. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:36, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Sure; all I'm saying is that it would be good to provide some time to allow for discussion and refinement of specific proposals before starting to collect support/oppose statements, as those tend to lock people into particular positions and can thus hamper finding an acceptable middle-ground approach. isaacl (talk) 21:28, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I just wanted to cite that passage from the close, but it was more in response to multiple comments above, than to yours. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

It's up to the closer of course, but in my opinion prop 13 contains plenty of detail and could be implemented quickly after this RFC. In fact I would prefer it skip phase 2. All the essentials are in there: the suffrage requirements (same as ACE), the # of days to discuss (3), the # of days to vote (7), the frequency of the elections (6 months), the software to be used (SecurePoll), the pass threshold (70%), etc. It's all detailed in the proposal. Will let the closer decide if there's a consensus that X detail has to be fleshed out or X detail is too vague, but from where I'm sitting, I see a complete, detailed proposal that is ready for implementation. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I would agree, except you were pretty clear at the outset that In my opinion, this RFC should only be to determine if community consensus exists to try some kind of admin election / secret voting system. The technical details should be worked out later. Xaosflux said in the discussion that ACE suffrage would be time-consuming, scrutineering and election location haven't been worked out, and I think the threshold is too high. An idea was passed, and the community should have the chance to workshop and concretize it before a test run. If the closer wants to fill in blanks, that's great, but no, I don't think skipping phase II is fair. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 12:13, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

The threshold question is probably more ripe for post-test run questioning, so I can see the implementation of prop 13 being much more informal than prop 16, where Joe basically threw out most of the proposed details. I do want to give everyone a chance to iron out some kinks, though. By the way, I was also thinking about putting myself in the first test run of prop 13 to have a non-binding control group... theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 12:19, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I originally stated The technical details should be worked out later because of what happened in RFA2021, but I have completely changed my mind about it because support for prop 13 was so strong in RFA2024. Just now I have struck my original comment so that this is clearer.

I agree that the suffrage requirements could be a pain for the WMF person that sets up SecurePoll, but we could always RFC a simplification of that after the first admin election, when we are armed with WMF feedback, better data, and experience.

Not sure what to do about the scrutineers. Maybe just copy ACE for the first election, then RFC a simplification after the first election? It's actually a bit strange to me that SecurePoll involves proactive checkusering of everyone. It may be the only process on the entire website where the checkuser tool is used so proactively. The reason for this should be explored, and maybe we will end up deciding that the suffrage requirements are secure enough that we only need to do random scrutineering or no scrutineering. Not sure. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I also think further RFCs will be MUCH more worth our time after we do one election cycle and see how it goes. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:41, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I think that any plan needs to recognize and handle the following which I think is the case with many of the passing proposals:

1. There is consensus for the idea in general. So it's time to move forward from that and not revisit that question. And avoid changes that would effectively negate or deprecate the initial result.
2. There was recognition that there will inevitably be flaws in the initial proposal, and it was pretty clear at the time that details will be refined and a good portion of the support was conditional on that.

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:23, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

What North just said is exactly my understanding, as well. When in doubt, discuss further, and Phase II would be the logical place for that. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:25, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 14 close

@Joe For Proposal 14, is the consensus to restrict voting in RFA to "Extended Confirmed" or to "30 days and 500 edits"? The former can be manually added to users based on a request, the latter cannot. I don't know if that matters in 14, but it was a non-insignificant factor for discussion in #25 (Nominees should be EC) Soni (talk) 13:40, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't explicitly discussed. Most people used the phrase "extended confirmed", so that's the wording I added to WP:RFA. – Joe (talk) 17:52, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 2 close

@Nagol0929: In your close, can you please address the related issues brought up in Proposal 9b, as discussed above in #Is phase 2 a good idea? Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:22, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: I did try to address said issues in discussing the oppose arguments and then mentioning at the end that all oppose arguments were rebutted. But if there is a specific way you would like me to word it, I am open to discussing that. Nagol0929 (talk) 02:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

You found consensus that diffs are required for things that are not policy violations. But the 9b discussion found the opposite. And most of the 2 discussion took place before that later discussion at 9b. If we have two different proposals here coming to conclusions that contradict one another, that's a problem. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:10, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

To hopefully clarify further, Nagol0929: Based on reading your close I think that your intent was to find that there was consensus for a reminder of civility on the RfA page in some fashion but that a Phase II discussion is needed to iron out the wording. If that's the case, I'd advise amending the close to make that clearer, and that should address Tryptofish's concerns. Even though you make mention there isn't much agreement on the wording, your close gives the impression that there is consensus for the reminder as written by the proposer. This has conflict with 9b due to the wording of "Editors may not make allegations of improper conduct without evidence.". Now, if you believe there is consensus for the wording as written, then Tryptofish is asking for clarification as to how proposals 2 and 9b are going to be reconciled as they appear contradictory. —Sirdog (talk) 23:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I don't feel the summarizing statement leaves an impression that there is consensus for the proposed text. The first two sentences are I find that there is consensus for this to be implemented at RfA. However there is not a clear consensus on what the actual message should say. isaacl (talk) 03:49, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

My intent was indeed to conclude that there should be a reminder of civility in some fashion. I also wanted the community to deliberate on the exact wording of the reminder. I’ll make it more clear when I am able to access a pc next. Nagol0929 (talk) 04:41, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for agreeing to clarify that. And thanks to Sirdog and isaacl for clarifying the issue. Sirdog explains my concerns very well, and I agree that making it clearer that there is not consensus for a single, specific wording, but there is consensus for, as you put it, "a reminder of civility in some fashion", is what is needed. Such a clarification, which I see as necessary, will address my concerns. Thanks again. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:41, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

How does this sound? I find that there is consensus for there to be a reminder of civility implemented at RfA. However there is not a clear consensus on the exact wording of the reminder. The exact wording of the reminder shall be discussed in phase 2. Nagol0929 (talk) 14:24, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

+1 —Sirdog (talk) 18:51, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that would address my concerns. Thanks for listening. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

note

All discussions are now closed. Toadette^Edit! 22:41, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

With the understanding, per the discussion immediately above this one, that 9b that you closed, must be discussed further in Phase 2. (I'm starting to feel like a broken record, but people seem to keep overlooking this, and it's important.) --Tryptofish (talk) 23:26, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with tryptofish this needs to be discussed in phase 2. More specifically in collaboration with the discussion of proposal 2 as the wording of the reminder could impact proposal 9b. Nagol0929 (talk) 02:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Phase 2 - Designated RfA monitors

Note - This section was originally on the talk page of Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Designated RfA monitors before being moved here. Soni (talk) 01:09, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I am thinking of the old-fashioned RfC format where people state a view and then editors sign underneath it? CC @SchroCat, Theleekycauldron, and Sirdog. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 17:24, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I like that! Depends on if we do one subpage for open discussion or many, so let's see what other people think about that. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:36, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the CC . I'm not the most experienced with structured discussions, but this idea seems fitting given the specific proposal. —Sirdog (talk) 21:55, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good. It’s a method that we know works well. - SchroCat (talk) 05:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

As I am the blame for the suggestion, would it help if I roughed out a few points on the page that were in my mind when I made the suggestion (and that came up in phase one), which could be used as the starting point for people to agree/disagree on - it would, at least, get the ball rolling and get people thinking about potential pitfalls, processes etc? Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:44, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good, SchroCat :) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 12:38, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

OK, I wasn't too sure exactly on the formatting you wanted, but I think the points outlined are the main ones I thought about or that people threw up in phase 1. Two options on the formatting: one (less likely) and two. Feel free to suggest a different form if you want and I'll try and put it into that form. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 19:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

• HouseBlaster, Just a query on the opening text, which currently reads "Following the passage of proposals 16 and 16c, providing for community-based recall of administrators by petition": is that germane for this page? Shouldn't this be pointing to proposal 17? Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 18:08, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
  • @SchroCat: that would be a botched copy/paste job.  Fixed and thanks for pointing it out! HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 20:54, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Beginning phase II

@HouseBlaster, Reaper Eternal, Thebiguglyalien, Soni, SchroCat, and SportingFlyer: Hey everyone! Congrats on getting a proposal passed at phase I :) y'all's proposals are going to need to move to phase II before implementation. I'm thinking that we should open Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II as an open discussion phase (broken down by proposal) to get a rough idea of how we want to answer the open questions before going to proposal-specific, more rigorous subpages. Anyone have thoughts on how they'd like their subpage to look, or if they want to skip open discussion entirely, etc.? Let me know your thoughts :) Also going to draw up a list of questions each proposal needs to have answered before implementation. Thanks! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:21, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Works for me :) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 21:56, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I would like 16-16C to have an open ended discussion approach for the first few days (probably 7?). It might help with a "vibe check" for how the community prefers 16/16C get tweaked.

As for pages, I think it might be good to just start some subpage structure, and let people modify it before making Phase II "live". I don't have specific plans yet but we'll probably have a decent starting page from that. I know Phase I had a bit of a "wing it as we go along" issue to figure out. Soni (talk) 22:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

@Soni: works for me. I know that you and HouseBlaster are working on subpages; if open discussion is gonna be on the communal subpage, do you have a draft of a more structured discussion for your proposal? Or would you rather that the 16c subpage have its own open discussion? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:18, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Whichever works. A starting point to consider is just.. Default to open discussion split by sections, and then shift to structured subproposal page 7d later. And either close the main open discussion for 16-16c, or move it when that happens.

As for draft, I do not. I will first start with an open ended question, and then create the subpage/adapt your subpage linked above accordingly. It's not clear to me what structure 16-16C's phase 2 would benefit most from (Every subsection is voted on in parallel, Base proposal + every amendment is a vote, Every proposal is wholesale and has a Y/N vote). So I'm waiting for more weighing in during Open discussion. Soni (talk) 21:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I think keeping the discussion pages separate will help avoid the need for a running archive, like we needed for phase I. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:10, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. Then let's get separate subpages ready, one-week (can be extended if needed) open discussion phase on each. HouseBlaster, I think yours and 9b should be the same subpage – the open questions look pretty much the same. 17 and 24 will happen separately, I'll draw up those subpages hopefully tomorrow. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 02:51, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@Theleekycauldron: subpage for 17 exists at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Designated RfA monitors. I will add the 9b language to Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Reminder of civility norms at RfA come tomorrow. I have been getting to bed in the day I woke up in for the last ~week and it is glorious, and I am not going to break my streak now :) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 03:07, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I have updated Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Reminder of civility norms at RfA to incorporate discussion surrounding 9b. If there are no other issues, I think we are ready to start phase II. CC @Theleekycauldron and Soni. Best, HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 14:24, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

For 16/16C, I have done a pass at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Administrator recall and am happy with sending the page as is. Tagging @Thebiguglyalien in case you have preferences.

Unrelatedly, do we want each subpage to have it's own talk? If not, I prefer moving all discussions from subpages here and redirecting. Soni (talk) 15:12, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Whatever works. As far as I'm concerned, I'm just the guy who brought it up and it's the community's now. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:43, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

A running list with all proposals slated for Phase 2.

• 2 and 9b - Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Reminder of civility norms at RfA
• 16 and 16c - Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Administrator recall
• 17 - Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Designated RfA monitors
• 24 - TBD

Soni (talk) 15:17, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I have created Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Mentoring related to the RfA process. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 17:19, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure of the best way to note this, but generally speaking, creating more mentorship options doesn't need a broad community consensus to proceed. Anyone can start an initiative and run with it. It is of course a good idea to have more discussion to try to figure out what might have a better possibility of succeeding. But the stakes are somewhat different with proposals for optional initiatives: as long as there's no community consensus barring them from happening, volunteers are free to drive them forward. isaacl (talk) 18:28, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree, which is why I left that proposal with just a general discussion section. I think that bundling it with RfA reform generally will (hopefully) encourage more people to participate in molding the process to be the best it can be. HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 19:51, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks so much for getting these set up! I've been so swamped, but going to start pushing buttons to get this thing going now. Stay tuned... theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:11, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Got most of the messages written out; I'm gonna proofread in the morning and then we'll launch :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:32, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Voting for specific options on Admin Recall Phase 2 is now open

The Phase 2 of Administrator recall has closed the "Open Discussion" segment and is now open for !voting. Everyone is encouraged to !vote or discuss specific sub-provisions of recall there; or give feedback at #General_Discussion.

Pinging everyone who commented during the "Open Discussion" segment - @Alanscottwalker, BluePenguin18, Chetsford, Dilettante, Draken Bowser, Giraffer, Hammersoft, HouseBlaster, Isaacl, Joe Roe, Just Step Sideways, Kusma, Levivich, LindsayH, Mach61, MicrobiologyMarcus, OhanaUnited, Pppery, QuicoleJR, Rchard2scout, RoySmith, S Marshall, Soni, Suffusion of Yellow, Tazerdadog, Theleekycauldron, Toadspike, ToBeFree, and Tryptofish: Soni (talk) 13:50, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is addressed anywhere, but what happens to the page in the case of non-rolling petitions? Is it deleted, blanked, kept, or is the fate wholly up to the user in question? and does that vary based on whether it meets the threshold? The obvious argument for keeping is that it makes determining suffrage for petitions easier. The obvious argument against is that keeping a list of an admin's detractors is demotivating and easy to abuse. Sincerely, Dilettante 15:05, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I would personally suggest blanking as it's an easy balance between "keep records" and "list detractors".

But we do also have a #Finer Points section in case something can't be easily resolved from discussion. There will be a lot of simpler questions that don't need a full "close" (Should Designated RfA monitors also apply to RRFAs, say), with the section being an option if it's not clear enough as is. Soni (talk) 16:01, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

To keep the discussion in one place, I suggest continuing to comment on the administrator recall phase 2 page, rather than this one. isaacl (talk) 17:47, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Most "detractors" are quite fine with their opposition to a specific admin being listed as publicly and irremovably as possible, and the opposition comes with practical immunity against further administrative actions from that administrator against their vocal critic. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:10, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Should this discussion be linked to more directly on WP:CENT? Riht now it just says that Phase II of RFA reform is open, but not that there's an active RFC for community admin recall, which is what I'd expect to see for a RFC this potentially impactful.Tazerdadog (talk) 23:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done. Anyone can revert or wordsmith but Tazerdadog's suggestion makes sense to me. Sincerely, Dilettante 19:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Pinging Phase I voters to Phase II

Sorry if this has already been discussed, decided, or done... but are we planning to ping the editors who voted in a relevant Phase I section to the related Phase II discussions? Any thoughts on doing/not doing this? Levivich (talk) 15:36, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

There were notifications on user talk pages, e.g. Special:Diff/1222314878 (using mailing list: Special:Permalink/1218650058). I assume that the list was aggregated from users participating in Phase I discussions. —⁠andrybak (talk) 16:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah, yes! Thanks. Levivich (talk) 16:14, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Make Phase III the review of trials instead of Phase II?

It would be confusing to have Phase II close and then open again for the ones that passed and are just being evaluated. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:58, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

RFC tag?

Should phase II have one? It would trigger WP:FRS and list this at WP:RFCWP, maybe bring in some new participants. Levivich (talk) 17:56, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Phase IIA is a more complex wonkish phase, needs like another 5 people to dive in deep here to workshop ideas. Not sure how to do that but RFC might not be the way. North8000 (talk) 18:45, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I do not know how to add the RFC tag, but it will be a good idea. We've already listed Phase II under Watchlist and CENT notices, so if RFC tag brings more attention, that is good. Soni (talk) 19:10, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it's just a matter of putting {{rfc|policy|prop}} (or whatever categories) on top of the phase 2 page (or wherever is appropriate, maybe on the four subpages), and then a bot does the rest. Levivich (talk) 19:19, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the more participation, the better, so I support anything, including RfC listings, to make that happen. Although it's not clear to me what the "RfC question" would be in each case. Whether Phase II is a workshop, or a poll to determine policy, is very unclear to me, but it seems to be all of the above. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:49, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

c.f. The three blind editors and the elephant RoySmith (talk) 22:59, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

If it was one RFC notice, I'd just crib the nutshell at WP:RFA2024:

{{rfc|policy|prop}}

2024 Requests for adminship review Phase II (WP:RFA2024) is open for discussion! Participants are invited to contribute towards improving and refining the proposals for a reminder of civility norms at RfA, administrator recall, designated RfA monitors, and RFA mentoring process. RFC notice posted ~~~~~

If it were four RFC notices (one for each of the four Phase II pages), I'd crib from the top of each of those pages:

• {{rfc|policy|prop}} Discussion about refining proposals from Phase I of WP:RFA2024 to add a reminder of civility norms at RfA and require links for claims of specific policy violations. RFC notice posted ~~~~~
• {{rfc|policy|prop}} Discussion about refining the implementation details of proposals from Phase I of WP:RFA2024 for community-based recall of administrators. RFC notice posted ~~~~~
• {{rfc|policy|prop}} Discussion following up on a successful proposal from Phase I of WP:RFA2024 to have named admins/crats to monitor infractions. RFC notice posted ~~~~~
• {{rfc|policy|prop}} Discussion following up on a successful proposal from Phase I of WP:RFA2024 which called for better mentoring for becoming an admin and the RfA process. RFC notice posted ~~~~~

Anyone should feel free to cut and paste :-) Levivich (talk) 04:00, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

With thanks to Levivich,  Done. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:32, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposal 13 (admin elections)

How is it being taken forward? Sorry if I've missed something. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:20, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29: WP:AELECT. I'll add that link to the main RFA2024 page. Levivich (talk) 17:29, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I had tried WP:ADMINELECT, WP:ADMINELECTION, and WP:ADMINELECTIONS. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:31, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I just created that first one, I agree it's an obvious guess. Levivich (talk) 17:33, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:Adele redirects to Wikipedia:WikiProject Adele, but WP:ADELE hasn't been taken yet. —⁠andrybak (talk) 00:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I remember a failed proposal to have the article Adele redirect to the name article instead of the singer. The way it is now is like having the Eddie article point to singer Eddie Money's article. NYC Guru (talk) 07:47, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks

Though I'll admit I haven't edited as I used to, I think these changes (delaying the support-oppose comments and applying the arbcom vote process) will make the experience better in the long run. I look forward to partitpating the the first RfA under the new reform. NYC Guru (talk) 07:44, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

My thanks also go out to the editors working on this issue. I, too, look forward to participating in Numberguy's request. A lot of discussion has already taken place before the actual process actually begins. Which is good. I assume the level of interest is increased by the pings that went out as a response to proposal 3b (2 day discussion period). From personal experience I can attest that the request for admin can be a chilling and deflating process. I am sure we have lost many quality editors over the years as a result. Protecting the process while protecting the nominee should be a mainstay in whatever comes from this trial period. Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 14:24, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Thoughts on the 2-day discussion period

Apologies if this isn't the right place to put this - I'm not hugely familiar with RfCs.

Now that Numberguy's RfA has passed, I wanted to share some thoughts about the 2-day discussion period. Personally I felt it made me much more involved in the process, although I couldn't tell you why. While the RfA itself wasn't exactly typical, I do think at least some of the increase in optional questions was linked to the discussion period, but we'll see if I get proven wrong in the next RfA. Just from this one RfA, personally I like this new system. Suntooooth, it/he (talk/contribs) 08:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Most of the discussion about this seems to have ended up at WT:RFA—you may want to participate there. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 20:58, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Suntooooth, since 30 May 2024, there's also Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Discussion-only period. —⁠andrybak (talk) 09:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Closing Phase 2

The 4 proposals that initiated Phase 2 have now been open for more than a month

• Reminder of civility norms at RfA
• Administrator recall
• Designated RfA monitors
• Mentoring Process

Note - The remaining phase 2 discussion (Discussion-only period) has been open for ~15 days now.

I think it might be worth trying to close them now. Some of these proposals definitely had enough discussion that is now petering out. Perhaps a posting in Wikipedia:Closure requests will help? Soni (talk) 23:42, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

The mentoring process discussion has no proposals to evaluate and few opinions; it's just an open discussion with a small handful of contributors. Personally I'd suggest just letting discussion reach a natural end on its own, with no consensus evaluation needed. isaacl (talk) 01:10, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I was more focused on recall or monitors, which were structured and impactful enough that a formal close will be good for next steps. I am not sure what should happen for mentoring, or anything else that ends without a concrete change to suggest. Perhaps some of them should be closed eventually anyway, if only to not make Phase 2s last forever?

Tagging @Theleekycauldron as well Soni (talk) 01:25, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

For the mentoring process discussion, I suggest at some point just adding a note that Phase 2 has come to an end and suggest that further discussion take place as a new thread elsewhere, rather putting the discussion into a box and saying, no more comments. isaacl (talk) 15:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Made a post at AN for the first three :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Administrator recall, phase II

I'm really sorry to say this, but reading it all through now, I think Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Administrator recall has trainwrecked.

I tried to make it very clear in my close of the the first phase that there was consensus for admin recall in principle but not for any specific process. Therefore in Phase II Soni's proposed dewiki-style process was supposed to be presented as just one option, with the possibility that it and/or another option would achieve consensus, or no option at all would. And phase II initially started along those lines, but then just three days after it opened for comment, Soni hatted (and later collapsed) all discussion not related to his proposal, and replaced the page with a list of polls about the implementation details of his proposal. I missed it at the time but I'm really quite stunned that you thought that this was appropriate, Soni.

I just cannot see how a genuine consensus can be said to come from a process like this. After the first three days, participants were presented with a fait accompli—Soni's proposal, which to reiterate had not yet obtained consensus even in principle—and asked only to vote on numeric thresholds and minor procedural details. They were not invited to suggest alternative ideas or given the option of objecting to Soni's proposal as a whole. It's as if instead of asking, "we decided to get some fruit, what do you want: apples? oranges? something else?", we asked "we decide to get some fruit, how big should the apples be?" This was also discussed at some length by Tryptofish, theleekycauldron, Levivich, isaacl, and I, on the phase II page, but again at the time I didn't notice that Soni had closed all other discussion, otherwise I would have strongly agreed with Trypto and reverted it.

In that thread I also missed this reply from you, theleekycauldron, to me:

Soni wanted the chance to direct how this proposal was going to be structured – I think that they've done a fantastic job getting it this far, and I agree with their reading of the close that 16c being a "starting point" does kind of lend itself to the setup we've seen so far.

Obviously just because I happened to close the first phase it doesn't mean I get to say how the second one goes, and maybe this is my fault because the "starting point" phrasing was unclear, but let's go back to the important thing, which is what participants in the first phase actually said. I hope that it is plain to see that there is nothing like a consensus there to take Soni's proposal, fiddle with some of the knobs, and then run with it. At the end of the day only 25 people indicated support for that proposal even in principle, which is far short of what successful proposals in that RfC got, and only a hair over the number of people that opposed recall of any kind. On the other hand, a very significant number of people said that their support for the idea of recall was conditional on there being significant further discussion of the details. I don't think we've allowed them that.

The only way I can see of salvaging this is to take whatever precise version of 16C got the most support and present it as a straight support/oppose RfC. It's risky because Wikipedians hate not being given the opportunity to bikeshed, but yeah, I can't see how this process is going to have any legitimacy as it is right now. People might be largely ignoring this discussion now, but imagine what will happen the first time it looks like an admin might lose their bits because of it? They'll tear it to shreds. It's a shame because phase I really did indicate strong support for recall. – Joe (talk) 16:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Joe, I'm as surprised as you are at the gulf between what you seemingly intended to communicate about phase II and what actually happened. You found consensus that "the community should be able to compel an administrator to make a re-request for adminship", which is language only used in proposal 16c – you did claim that proposal 16 also focused on initiating an RRFA, but that wasn't an accurate reading of the discussion. If, when you said "the process(es) for initiating an RRFA needs to be worked out in more detail before this is implemented" and that proposal 16c should be the "starting point", you somehow meant that "we should not be relying on the petition process, the only proposed process to initiate an RRfA, as a framework for the discussion", that was wholly unclear. As for legitimacy, that's up to another closer to decide. If no consensus is found here, I would be happy to coordinate putting together a full proposal. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 17:04, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

the community should be able to compel an administrator to make a re-request for adminship – this was intended to summarise the consensus in proposal 16. If the wording was similar to that of 16c, it's purely coincidental – probably because 16C was freshest in my mind when I started writing. My understanding was that proposal 16 did indeed propose a (non-specific) RRFA process, because its title was allow the community to initiate recall RfAs. What's inaccurate about that reading? And didn't you consider challenging it at the time?

I'll take full responsibility if it's my poor writing that caused this. However, I did foresee the potential for confusion there, and tried to emphasise that 16C was not to be considered the only or favoured framework by saying there is also a consensus that the process(es) for initiating an RRFA needs to be worked out in more detail before this is implemented. Phase II of this review should therefore consider specific proposals for RRFA initiation procedures and further consensus should be sought on which, if any, is to be adopted. (note the plurals throughout). And I repeated this point several times in the initial stages of phase II. – Joe (talk) 17:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

"Recall RfA" is distinct from RRFA, at least as Soni devised it at the time. RRFA stands for re-request for adminship, meaning that the administrator is already desysopped or facing desysop pending a new RfA (which is the RRFA). Thebiguglyalien's "recall RfA", as I understand it, refers to a discussion on whether to remove an admin's tools, not restore them. In a recall RfA, the admin keeps their tools unless there is explicit consensus to desysop. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 17:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

That's not a distinction I recall seeing anyone in the discussion make. "Re-request" was actually my phrase, a little wordplay on the fact that people were calling it variously a recall or reconfirmation RFA. – Joe (talk) 18:54, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You've put into words how I've felt about the process since phase I closed; I couldn't put my finger on why but I've felt like I missed a step in the process where we decided to only talk about how we would implement dewiki's admin recall process, when there was definitely still more to discuss with other proposals. But I don't think it's as fatal to the process as you - this process was always going to have to start somewhere, and proposals unlikely to gain consensus were always going to drop off. I've been looking at this entire process as brainstorming towards one concrete proposal which will then be put to the community as a support/oppose RFC; it would be absurd to think that this sort of straw-polling process could possibly represent consensus for such a monumental policy change without testing it specifically in an RFC. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:13, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

As I discussed in the phase 2 discussion, I think a checkpoint is desirable. If a consensus on the different aspects is determined to exist, then list the entire proposal with all of the points in place, and identify if the interested parties are amenable to the net result. I think it's easy to miss interactions between the different considerations when considering them piecemeal, and think looking at a consolidated view would be helpful in establishing an overall consensus. isaacl (talk) 17:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• I don't think I've much to say to this other than what I've already explained.

I understood the close and tried to implement the "starting point for the discussions" comment of the close best I could. This draft was put on #Beginning phase II just to make sure the author of 16 (and anyone else) could adjust and suggest accordingly. Then once this (Aka the "Open discussion" stage) began, people suggested two-three different proposals, and a bunch of other unassorted ideas. I tried to incorporate those into Leeky's originally written structure and put some mock ups of the actual voting structure on Process section. Once I suspected the open discussion started petering out, I implemented said structure and let others apply it as they see fit.

Even with that seek-everyones-input, you suggested that I was too close to this and I should step back. I did, and mostly tried so Leeky (or any other interested person) could step in and tweak the structures if needed. And now another few weeks later, you would rather take the entire structure down after I've done exactly as you suggested.

I do not think there is any set of actions that I can do better here. Perhaps the 3 day open discussion was shorter than it should have been, but hindsight is easier. At that point, it was a fairly real concern (to me) that the 2nd half of Phase II would have little engagement and just die out. Other than that, anytime an editor has shown an interest in editing the structure of this or come with new concerns (like you did the last time), we've adjusted things. This just feels like an exhausting revisit of the same question again.

Sure the process could be better, especially now that we're finally parsing what your original close was intended to mean (versus what it ended up reading as to others). But in my opinion, it's not the same as being "unsalvagable" or as unilateral as you paint it. Every step so far was considering all the opinions said till then; those opinions just didn't differ enough. Soni (talk) 18:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate that you stepped back and it's totally my fault that I didn't see your hatting/collapsing at the time, or I would have specifically asked you about it. It's that really is the issue now, as I see it. Examples of people bringing new things to the structure would be adding a "Proposals for other RRFA mechanisms" section or Hammersoft starting a highly relevent discussion of how the dewiki process impacted their admin core. Both these were initially admitted, but then closed and hidden away after three days. That's the problem. The effect was that most participants (after the third day) saw a fixed list of options and no indication that suggestions that deviated from the 16c framework were welcome. – Joe (talk) 19:13, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

No indication that suggestions that deviated from the 16c framework were welcome, except for the Something else (specify) option appearing 8 times. Also, options were added to multiple sections. One of those added options was Option G: Petitions should not be used as part of the recall process which is a significant deviation from the 16c framework. Full and Strongest Possible Oppose to any Community Initiated Administrator Recall Process was one of the bolded votes; that voter didn't feel constrained by the options. Then there are all the Find a consensus votes, which is a strong indication of support for a recall process regardless of what color we paint the bikeshed. On top of all that, I see a lot of consensus in the individual sections -- some are near unanimous. I have no concerns that the process is invalid because of how the options were set up. Like all RFCs ever, the options evolved as people participated. And I see a lot of participation, and a lot of agreement. I don't think it's a problem. I would just let closer(s) close it; maybe the closer(s) will say there isn't sufficient consensus on all parts of the recall proposal; maybe the closer(s) will say further discussion is needed on some parts or a confirmation on all of it; but my 2c is let somebody who is so-far-uninvolved review the whole thing and draw what conclusions they may. And then we can move on to the next phase: inevitable close challenge. :-) Levivich (talk) 19:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

That's not really the same as offering the 16c framework as just one option amongst many, is it? Anyway, it's done now, there's not much value in going over the format. My main point is that I don't think the result here can be implemented without one more round, which most people appear to have expected anyway. – Joe (talk) 05:53, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The 16c framework was not the only option offered, and anyways it was successful, and I don't think most people expected another round. In fact, I remember discussing that and coming to the opposite conclusion.

Joe, your comment on this page, way up top:

I've just closed proposals 16 and 16c as successful but requiring further discussion of specifics in Phase II.

After Phase 2 ends months later is too late to reverse that, IMO. Levivich (talk) 14:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

As the person who started the trend of "Please don't trainwreck this" !votes, I think this discussion at minimum partially trainwrecked. In my opinion, the best way to close this would be for an uninvolved closer to go through the discussion and assemble results from the discussion that are likeliest to find a broad consensus. Then that result needs a straight up or down RFC. It's impossible to tell from this discussion if someone who was aligned with consensus in almost every subdiscussion, and dissenting from the consensus on just one feels that one is a dealbreaker for the entre process, or alternatively if someone who dissented on a lot of specifics still feels that the overall idea is a net positive. The only way to determine that is an up or down RFC, where we propose the sum of consensuses from this discussion, and ask people for an up or down vote, with tweaks possible only through a separate discussion after the up or down RFC instead of proposed throughout the middle of it. Tazerdadog (talk) 21:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Joe. I've been warning this would happen (and, folks, there are comparable issues with the discussion about the civility notice), and have felt until now that not enough people were listening. Seriously, the idea that Phase 1 established consensus for something, so whatever would come out of Phase 2 would have automatic consensus, has been nonsense all along. (Every time I've seen Phase 2 comments that the closer needs to "find a consensus", my mind has gone to Trump telling the Georgia Secretary of State to "find me some votes".)

Bottom line, as other editors have already pointed out, is that there needs to be some sort of specific proposal presented to the community, with an up-or-down RfC. And I'll repeat my previous advice that care should be put into devising the RfC proposal, and into providing a well thought out rationale for why it is worth adopting. Nothing has consensus until such time as a well-advertised, site-wide RfC results in that consensus. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:47, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

It's a bit odd to keep dismissing "Find a consensus" votes based on your personal preferences when they're fairly well articulated what they stand for, "I support all outcomes that lead to broad consensus". Just because you disagree with their phrasing does not automatically make lesser the !vote itself.

Nothing has consensus until such time as a well-advertised, site-wide RfC results in that consensus. I will note that both Phases of this process have been well advertised and site wide RFCs (RFC, CENT, Watchlist). So really what we're talking about is just "Is there consensus" which I think the closers of Phase II have to weigh in on.

I completely understand (but not necessarily agree) with those who prefer an up-down vote at the end of this process. If the closers think we need them, I'm happy with it. But I have been concerned at some comments in this section attempting to de-facto overturn consensus based pretty much on personal preferences. Soni (talk) 09:27, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

• Nobody ever goes for this, but I'd once again mention the format I developed for Wikipedia:Pending changes/Request for Comment 2012. It is designed only for exactly this type of situation, where multiple previous phases failed to achieve a clear result. The framework is simple:

• Mutually exclusive options are presented
• Each user must pick one and only one to support
• No additional proposals are allowed

It isn't something we should do often as it is a very restricitve format but I think we've reached the point herer where this, or something very much like it, is the only way forward. I'd also reccomend recruiting a panel of admins or other experienced users in advance to administer the RFC and do the close. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 23:54, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd add that we also used some fancy tricks with transcluded subpages for each position, to cut down on edit conflicts and make navigating the main RFC page easier. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 23:57, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Quick question​: I like this idea, but what would the options beyond this dewiki-based proposal and no RRFA be? Would we have a short duration (one week–one month) where any user is welcome to write a proposal? Sincerely, Dilettante 00:18, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Having already had two phases, I think any completely new proposals should be left for a future RfC. A better use of time and effort would be to fashion a single best version out of the discussion from Phase 2, and it either passes or fails. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, at this point it's either this or back to the drawing board. – Joe (talk) 13:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Disagree now, as I did last time we discussed this some months ago. Levivich (talk) 14:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)