Talk:Reform UK
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Limited company/FT source
[edit]Reform UK is mentioned as being "unusual" for a political party, but when I read the wiki article on political parties I couldn't see how the structure differs. The FT times is behind a paywall/registration; is that a suitable source? The Guardian just repeats the party has unusual structure, without explaining why.Halbared (talk) 13:55, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- We use paywalled sources, and for some reason I was able to read it anyway. I can't now. The Guardian says "Farage owns a majority of shares in Reform UK Party Ltd, which is registered with Companies House." Our general article on political parties is irrelevant. There are no political groups in the UK owned by shareholders other than this one that I know of, certainly none with MPs. There are of course other sources stating the same thing, also stating who owns the other shares. Also note that Farage is quoted in the article: "He saw the Brexit Party doing the same kind of thing and "running a company, not a political party, hence our model of registered supporters" " Reform is just the new name for the Brexit Party. Doug Weller talk 14:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the response. Paywalled sources are not very good if they can't be accessed, and the Guardian didn't answer my question, though you did here, thank you for that. I found a good source as to why Reform is different from other parties. Prominence is given to Reform being a limited company which raised my pondering on how other parties are 'set-up.' I wanted to know the structure of how a political party should work, which I expected to find on the political party page, which is why I mentioned it. I found a rather good source anyway on what makes Reform unusual from the other, older parties. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/reform-uk-nigel-farage-election-b2556355.html.Halbared (talk) 17:57, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Good source. I could find the quote "Mr Farage claimed Reform UK would “democratise over time” after he was accused of running a “one-man dictatorship” by broadcasters." Also here[1] which is interesting as he says their constatation (which is where?) allows 2/3rd of the membership to kick him out. Note that he stonewalls on whether the company sill stay. See also [2] and [3]. Doug Weller talk 10:36, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the response. Paywalled sources are not very good if they can't be accessed, and the Guardian didn't answer my question, though you did here, thank you for that. I found a good source as to why Reform is different from other parties. Prominence is given to Reform being a limited company which raised my pondering on how other parties are 'set-up.' I wanted to know the structure of how a political party should work, which I expected to find on the political party page, which is why I mentioned it. I found a rather good source anyway on what makes Reform unusual from the other, older parties. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/reform-uk-nigel-farage-election-b2556355.html.Halbared (talk) 17:57, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
I’m putting up here because although another editor saw fit to exclude this information from the lede, with the edit summary "Major British political parties have companies associated with them. Take it to the talk-page." it has just been plonked into para. 1 of the lede. I have reverted that edit for the following reasons. Even if it is established that this information should be included in the lede, it should not be prioritised above all the other information therein, which is what the latest edit did. Is the fact that it is a limited company more important than the facts that it is a political party, which has innumerable policies, which gained 14% of the vote at the general election? Of course not. Boscaswell talk 20:43, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Boscaswell But it is. No other political party is controlled by shareholders. And are you suggesting that there is a party membership that can elect the party leader and help set its policies. As an aside, paywalled sources are fine. And there are others. Doug Weller talk 20:49, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Having a company associated with a party is in no way equivalent with a party being a limited company, how can you possibly think it is? Doug Weller talk 20:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, any source that is reliable and in the public domain is acceptable. Including a hardback book that costs £25 to buy. Although, as it happens, you can usually access FT content for free by googling the article title and using an alternative source. On the topic, so long as Farage is in sole charge of everything his ‘party’ does, including its name, branding, leader, candidate selection and policies, it is significantly different from other parties, which have democratic structures (of course, one can argue about the extent to which they are democratic in practice - cf. the power Starmer has accumulated over his party, in practice, despite its internal democracy). It will be interesting to see whether, now it has a group of MPs, there will be pressure on its one-man decision-making model; it was such pressure within UKIP that led Farage to walk away from it. MapReader (talk) 05:28, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- @MapReader@Halbared@Boscaswell See Talk:Nigel Farage where this information is being called a BLP violation despite the tact that everyone of their websites clearly states "Promoted by Paul Oakden - Copyright © 2024 Reform UK Party Limited
- Company number 11694875 | Registered in England & Wales". Plus a multitude of sources. Doug Weller talk 07:04, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
Political position of Reform UK
[edit]The University of Birmingham describes the Reform party as a 'far-right' party here: [4]https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/2024/general-election-2024-the-results-in-10-key-graphs, and compares it with UKIP, which was also led by Nigel Farage (at the 2015 general election), which Wikipedia also described as a 'far-right' party: .
The Conservative Party has also been described as 'Right-wing' Conservative Party (UK), and I think most British voters would not say these 2 parties both occupied the same political position. Reform has shifted it's position further to the right at the 2024 election, particularly on issues such as immigration, asylum seekers and taxation [5]https://assets.nationbuilder.com/reformuk/pages/253/attachments/original/1718625371/Reform_UK_Our_Contract_with_You.pdf?1718625371. 80.43.59.80 (talk) 20:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
and compares it with UKIP, which was also led by Nigel Farage (at the 2015 general election), which Wikipedia has also described as a 'far-right' party
- Worth pointing out that we didn't list UKIP as far-right under Farage. It shifted to the far-right after he left.
The Conservative Party has also been described as 'Right-wing'
Actually "centre-right to right-wing", separate to Reform simply being right-wing, establishing they're not in the same position. — Czello (music) 20:52, 29 July 2024 (UTC)- This is tricky.
- Reform UK certainly had its fair share of far-right, racist candidates during the General Election campaign. But the party did drop support for these candidates before the polls opened.
- The question, perhaps, is whether the party’s political position should represent the views of all its members or whether it should represent the views of its MPs and councillors.
- If the former, I think labelling the party as “right wing to far-right” would be the most logical conclusion. If the later, I think the page should be left as is.
- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c727xz2kkgjo.amp DWMemories (talk) 20:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I was just thinking the same thing.
- Reform has at different times, given the impression of being either a right wing party, or a far-right party. So, perhaps the description should reflect that? 80.43.59.80 (talk) 14:16, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- its center right to right wing also i support reform Pip69420 (talk) 13:34, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- but surely if it has some, but not all, racist candidates and supporters that would make it "right wing to far right" wouldn't it? It's a very mixed party with some candidates more economically right wing than others and some more authoritarian candidates so just having "right wing" doesn't make sense to me LukeTheIncredibleFluke (talk) 11:12, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I’m agreed with this. A party’s political position is not the same as the political position of its leader. The Labour Party remained a “centre-left” party even under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership (despite him being more left wing). I’d support Reform UK being labelled a “right wing to far-right” party.
- It’s also worth pointing out Farage’s political position is hard to define. He’s stated he wants to lead a “centre-right” party but it is clear Reform UK is NOT centre-right. Farage seems to believe the Conservatives have shifted further to the left in the last decade, which is certainly not the opinion of academics. I think we have to recognise the party has different factions with some leaning into far-right territory. DWMemories (talk) 14:36, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Nigel Farage and Richard Tice have at times, labelled the Conservative Party as socialists.
- https://news.sky.com/story/rishi-sunak-is-not-a-conservative-but-a-socialist-claims-reforms-richard-tice-13120054
- The implication is that the leaders of Reform consider the Conservatives to be a relatively left wing party. 80.43.59.80 (talk) 14:56, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think that confirms my position on this. Labelling Reform UK as merely “right wing” neither reflects the views of its members or of its MPs.
- If the party’s leaders both see the Conservatives as relatively left wing, I think that all but confirms their views lean towards the far-right.
- Let’s not forget that UKIP under Farage’s leadership was part of the EFDD alliance in the European Parliament (a group which Wikipedia labels as “right wing to far-right”) DWMemories (talk) 18:13, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm new to Wikipedia so I don't know how it works. If we have a source, then surely we are allowed update the political position? Or does it need to be authorised by someone else? LukeTheIncredibleFluke (talk) 18:42, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Two points. Sources need to meet WP:RS which you need to read.Also see WP:UNDUE. Doug Weller talk 19:03, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm new to Wikipedia so I don't know how it works. If we have a source, then surely we are allowed update the political position? Or does it need to be authorised by someone else? LukeTheIncredibleFluke (talk) 18:42, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- No, that’s evidence they don’t know what socialism is. Doug Weller talk 19:28, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I’d argue it’s evidence for both.
- They’re not calling the Conservatives socialists because they’re politically similar to them. They’re doing it to show they’re further to the right. If they genuinely are this much further right than the Conservatives (and this is a big if), then I have to assume they are right-wing to far-right (as the Conservatives are actually centre-right to right-wing). DWMemories (talk) 21:17, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Economically, Reform appears to be more to the left than the Conservatives – e.g., Reform demands the nationalisation of key branches of economy, which in itself is quite leftist (too leftist for the US for instance). They are socially to the right, sometimes bordering far right when identities are discussed. But this is the song of the times across Europe: far-right social narrative and chauvinism combined with progressive economic policies. The left-right distinction is definitely unable to capture the current political spectrum. Do we insist on having it? — kashmīrī TALK 18:54, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- But we go by what the sources say, your analysis is original. Research. Doug Weller talk 19:01, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I’d suggest those supporting a change should try to find some academic sources that label the party “far-right”.
- We can then discuss the credibility of these sources.
- Here are some I’d like to add:
- https://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=10&q=%E2%80%9Creform+uk%E2%80%9D+%E2%80%9Cfar%E2%80%9D+right&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5#d=gs_qabs&t=1722459664042&u=%23p%3DnhogPPD0MxkJ (names Reform UK a “radical right” party. Wikipedia’s own page on the Radical Right in Europe says it is a term used to describe right-wing to far-right movements. Worth noting far more sources seem happy to label the party as “radically right” compared to “far right” because the term accounts for different factions).
- https://transform-network.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/the_far-right_in_the_ep.pdf (discusses the Brexit Party as part of a larger group of far-right parties in Europe. Acknowledges the party’s name was changed).
- https://www.asjp.cerist.dz/en/downArticle/473/8/1/250066 (talks mostly about the BNP and UKIP, though does mention Reform UK - probably not all that helpful). DWMemories (talk) 21:08, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- For me at least, this (along with the first source provided in the OP) is ample evidence to support a change. But if anyone has anything to dispute then please do. DWMemories (talk) 21:21, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- there's thing called Third position or syncretism they might meld more "left wing" beliefs like nationalisation but Reform has more kinship with National Rally or Fidesz than it does with the Tories or any Christian democratic EU party 2A00:23C5:EDB1:1:29DA:74E3:45B7:9E9B (talk) 07:13, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- But we go by what the sources say, your analysis is original. Research. Doug Weller talk 19:01, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I would agree with listing the party as Right-wing to far-right. There are factions of both, with many candidates sharing far-right and racist views, some dropped, some not. Additionally, certain MPs of Reform UK have recently sympathised and spread far-right conspiracies and views on social media. Furthermore, there's a huge proportion of documented Reform supporters who have shared far-right views. There are notable far-right factions of all sections of the party, so right-wing to far-right seems appropriate. Sizewell (talk) 14:22, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- why are we even debating this when its clear this party is clearly trying to appeal to nationalistic and fascistic sentiment? It's calling debating National Rally for being right wing when they're actually far right. Wikipedia editors failing to call out a racist project for what it is and instead quibbling over definitions. 2A00:23C5:EDB1:1:29DA:74E3:45B7:9E9B (talk) 07:15, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Are enough of us now agreed? Can someone implement these changes?
- Personally, I’d cite the University of Birmingham Source linked in the original post and the first source I sent, referring to the party as “radically right”. DWMemories (talk) 10:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- why are we even debating this when its clear this party is clearly trying to appeal to nationalistic and fascistic sentiment? It's calling debating National Rally for being right wing when they're actually far right. Wikipedia editors failing to call out a racist project for what it is and instead quibbling over definitions. 2A00:23C5:EDB1:1:29DA:74E3:45B7:9E9B (talk) 07:15, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
Referring to Reform as populist right seems the best descriptor at the moment. Politico.eu and theweek.com use 'populist right,' you gov says 'culturally right.' This is an interesting article explaining why 'far-right' is wrong.https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/its-a-mistake-to-call-reform-uk-far-right/ The BBC said: “In an article about the Liberal Democrats’ spring conference we wrongly described the political party Reform UK as far right when referring to polling. This sentence was subsequently removed from the article as it fell short of our usual editorial standards. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/19/bbc-apologises-for-calling-reform-uk-far-right.Halbared (talk) 11:44, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with the previous comment, the unsigned one. "Populist right" sounds correct to me. There is a problem with the term "far right" in that the moment it is used it enables the left and far left to call whoever is labelled with it Nazi. Reform UK is far from that. Then there are those on the left and far left who like to label populist right wing parties as far right for that very reason, so that they have a hammer to hit their enemy with, and it’s possible nowadays that some academics will want to do this.
This whole area is highly contentious, and for that reason alone I feel that we need not just an RS or two but absolutely unimpeachable RS's. If we have the BBC saying it was (and is) wrong to call Reform UK far right, then that's pretty solid, isn’t it? Bear in mind also that Farage and Tice threw out candidates who had clear far right opinions, and Farage himself has shown a strong determination to avoid the far right label. If we were to go ahead and describe them as far right despite all of that, it would be a "what the…" moment, IMO. "Populist right" feels correct to me. Boscaswell talk 09:32, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Although "populist right" wouldn't go into the position field, it'd go into the ideology field (where it already is) — Czello (music) 09:34, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia labels the Conservative Party as “centre-right to right-wing” for a reason. There are factions within political parties.
- Perhaps the question should be whether Reform UK are more right-wing than the most right-wing members of the Conservative Party. Are there members of Reform UK who are further right than the likes of Suella Braverman?
- I’d argue there are, hence the previous sources I’ve provided (which have not been dissected).
- “Far-right” on its own would CLEARLY be wrong. Reform UK are NOT on the same politically position as France’s National Rally and this is why the BBC corrected their comments. But after Channel 4’s investigation and the racist comments made by candidates, I think there’s enough to say there’s a large enough following within Reform UK that do sit on the far-right spectrum. DWMemories (talk) 10:52, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- I’d also suggest Wikipedia shouldn’t exclude information which *could* be misused by extremists (you’re talking about the far-left here). It should go on academic opinion. DWMemories (talk) 10:57, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Do most of us here agree that for a lack of a better term, Reform UK is a very right wing political party? E.g. not simply 'Right-Wing'.
- And that the Conservative Party is more of a Centre right to Right wing party? 80.43.59.80 (talk) 15:24, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, though I’d say “right-wing to far-right” covers their position. They’re more than simply right. DWMemories (talk) 19:11, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- I second this, especially in the wake of the 2024 United Kingdom riots, which Farage responded to with an allegation or “two tier policing”.
- That combined with the parties general lack of tolerance to certain marginalised groups, and the parties views on asylum seekers makes me think calling them simply “Right-Wing” is disingenuous.
- However on the flip-side “Far-Right” would place them in the same league as parties such as the English Defence League & National Front, which are clearly more extreme than Reform UK.
- Therefore i would say “Right-Wing to Far-Right” would be the only way to describe this party.
- Also Sidenote: Someone should maybe add “National Conservatism” & “Anti-Immigration” to the “ideology” section. Jaybainshetland (talk) 19:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Good. It seems most of us agree a change is necessary. Farage’s response to the riots is indeed relevant evidence.
- Unless anyone has anything else to add, I think the page should be edited in the coming days. DWMemories (talk) 00:28, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- At the moment the likes of Guardian/BBC et al are content to not paint Reform as 'far-right.' I checked the latest Guardian comment on the subject and they make note of Reform’s election candidates being dropped over links to far-right groups. You could make a RFC?Halbared (talk) 10:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- To me it appears that the far-right label is indeed avoided by the largest UK media like The Guardian and BBC, and there are articles that openly argue that the far-right is not accurate for the party. Some of these sources are already in the ideology section, like this one by Tim Bale,[6], but there are also some other ones.[7]
- Jaybainshetland brought up the party's response to this year's riots. The reaction seems to be "Some, such as Reform UK leader Nigel Farage, while condemning the violence, have suggested that far-right violence is a reaction to the fear and unease shared by tens of millions of people.", per Independent.[8]
- I actually don't see why the riots or this (seemingly weak condemnation) response to the riots should speak in favor of attaching the far-right label to the party in spite of it being disputed. That would appear to be WP:OR to me. To not be dismissive of the opposite side, I would deem it to wait it out and see if there is a shift in the party's classification by the media and academia in the nearest future. Brat Forelli🦊 10:51, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- The label is indeed avoided by the outlets you’ve mentioned. However, it is used by other outlets. Here are a few:
- https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2024/7/19/does-reform-uks-election-success-signal-a-far-right-future-for-britain
- https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/01/05/in-the-uk-the-far-right-reform-uk-party-hopes-to-capitalize-on-the-conservatives-weakness_6402317_4.html
- https://tribunemag.co.uk/2024/07/the-anti-elite-elites-reform-far-right
- https://amp.dw.com/en/uk-thousands-join-anti-racism-rallies-far-right-stays-away/a-69909302
- Neither “right-wing” or “far-right” alone is accurate. Only “right-wing to far-right” would accurately represent the the different labels the party has been given. DWMemories (talk) 12:16, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Again, I point to the sources I provided in an earlier post. Academic opinion should be what matters here and there are plenty of articles labelling the party as “far-right”.
- I’m now agreed Farage’s response to the riots is not evidence the party is far-right, as this would be our own analysis of his comments. But it is clear some of those taking part in the riots (or, at the very least, agreeing with the riots) align themselves with Reform UK.
- https://bylinetimes.com/2024/08/09/reform-uk-facebook-groups-rife-with-far-right-sentiment-and-support-for-riots/ DWMemories (talk) 12:21, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- @DWMemories Byline Times is throwing shit hoping it sticks, but do you also deliberately conflate the official political position of a party[9], formally adopted by its executive body, and uncensored social media comments by random people?
- By the way, you'll need to find sources that Farage's interview represented the official position of Reform UK. Read WP:SYNTH before that. — kashmīrī TALK 12:30, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Unnecessary profanity and confused by the relevance of the party’s “official position” here. They label themselves a centre-right party, which is not exactly difficult to dispute.
- Also confused what Farage interview you’re referencing as I have not suggested using one as evidence. DWMemories (talk) 12:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Your words:
Farage’s response to the riots is indeed relevant evidence
. It's about his LBC interview I suppose[10]. — kashmīrī TALK 13:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)- Also my words:
- “I’m now agreed Farage’s response to the riots is not evidence the party is far-right, as this would be our own analysis of his comments.”
- Why have you brought this interview up? DWMemories (talk) 15:09, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- My point exactly, just because Adolf Hitler described himself as socialist, that doesn’t make him any less Far-Right, citing party material as a source is at best weak sourcing, and at worst, completely biased. Jaybainshetland (talk) 18:19, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed, citing the party’s own manifesto is particularly weak evidence and no “official position” exists. We have to maintain Wikipedia based on academic opinion, not the opinion of biased politicians.
- The party has been given plenty of different labels and therefore “right-wing to far-right” seems appropriate. Far-right on its own would contradict the articles arguing that label is wrong. DWMemories (talk) 18:29, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Your words:
- First of all, no need for the swearing, second of all, it certainly seems like you have a bias towards Reform UK, so you would say that wouldn’t you? Jaybainshetland (talk) 18:16, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Always assume good faith. It’s probably not best to make guesses about people’s political views here. Do you have anything further to add to this debate in favour of changing the party’s position? DWMemories (talk) 18:21, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- No mainstream media source will describe Reform as Far-Right, because they dont want the storm that will inevitably follow Jaybainshetland (talk) 18:20, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is original analysis. Though I agree we shouldn’t hold back changing Reform UK’s political position out of fear of the reaction that may follow. DWMemories (talk) 18:23, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Due to wikipedia being open, people causing a stir is a non issue, as it cannot be blamed on one particular person/company. We should just go ahead and edit in my opinion. Jaybainshetland (talk) 01:09, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Also it is worth mentioning, i do have a slight COI due to my own political involvement, although i suspect this is the case for a few people in this discussion, therefore i believe a poll would be in order before making the edit. Jaybainshetland (talk) 01:13, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- If that’s how we’re doing it, then I’d like to make my position clear.
- I support changing the page to say “right-wing to far-right”. DWMemories (talk) 21:18, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Also it is worth mentioning, i do have a slight COI due to my own political involvement, although i suspect this is the case for a few people in this discussion, therefore i believe a poll would be in order before making the edit. Jaybainshetland (talk) 01:13, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Due to wikipedia being open, people causing a stir is a non issue, as it cannot be blamed on one particular person/company. We should just go ahead and edit in my opinion. Jaybainshetland (talk) 01:09, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is original analysis. Though I agree we shouldn’t hold back changing Reform UK’s political position out of fear of the reaction that may follow. DWMemories (talk) 18:23, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- At the moment the likes of Guardian/BBC et al are content to not paint Reform as 'far-right.' I checked the latest Guardian comment on the subject and they make note of Reform’s election candidates being dropped over links to far-right groups. You could make a RFC?Halbared (talk) 10:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, though I’d say “right-wing to far-right” covers their position. They’re more than simply right. DWMemories (talk) 19:11, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- I’d also suggest Wikipedia shouldn’t exclude information which *could* be misused by extremists (you’re talking about the far-left here). It should go on academic opinion. DWMemories (talk) 10:57, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
DWMemories I’m glad that you have accepted the mistake in your theorising here: "I’m now agreed Farage’s response to the riots is not evidence the party is far-right, as this would be our own analysis of his comments. But it is clear some of those taking part in the riots (or, at the very least, agreeing with the riots) align themselves with Reform UK." Could you now perhaps also consider this. In the same way that Farage's response to the riots, understanding the sentiment which has lead to them, does not make him someone who agrees with them, individual people who observe the riots and understand the sentiment behind them, yet support Reform UK, that doesn’t mean that those people are Far Right. It simply means that these people hold a view that the levels of immigration, particularly of those who refuse to integrate, and further, actually assault white girls in number (it is believed [source: mainstream media front page] that up to a million white girls have fallen victim to moslem rape gangs; these horrific crimes will almost all have occurred in white working class and formerly white working class suburbs), sometimes knife them, sometimes kill them, is perhaps not such a good thing for the country. They see Reform UK, with its staunch "halt immigration now!" stance, as being the party they wish to support. That does not make any of them Far Right. I am *not* political soap boxing here, I am *explaining* why people might have some sympathy for those who go out on the street and say forcefully "enough is enough!" That they do so does not make them Far Right. They are fearful for their families and for their friends and it is very very difficult if not impossible to argue that they have no reason to be fearful. Being in that state of mind does not make them Far Right. Likewise, their wanting a Reform UK government, which has said it will stop immigration, does not make that party Far Right. It just means that they want immigration to end. And I guarantee to you that if you were to poll the entire country on whether they wanted the boats to stop coming across the channel with hundreds of thousands of immigrants every year, all bar about maybe 10% or 15% would say yes, they do want a halt to that immigration. Again, that view does not make people Far Right. If they all supported Reform UK, that would not make the party Far Right. All the best. Boscaswell talk 20:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
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Reform UK tracked private user information without consent
[edit]See [11]. Doug Weller talk 12:54, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Facebook pixel is a common web analytics tool, half of websites use it. Nothing to do here IMO, at least for an encyclopaedia, — kashmīrī TALK 18:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
NPOV lead
[edit]Despite having a section in the article, the fact that Reform is a legal company and its shareholders is not in the lead. Doug Weller talk 19:19, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Given that the funding model isn't one the most important aspects of the topic of this article, it doesn't really belong in the lead. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Again, it has its own section. It is extremely unusual, so far as I know unique. Many people don't read more than the lead, it shouldn't be left out. Doug Weller talk 08:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Can't reply to your post below, did you read the sources in my first post? There are a lot. Including of course their websites. Doug Weller talk 09:26, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- As the balance of the sources don't seem to give much/any weight to it, then neither should we. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Given that Nigel Garage’s name appears so frequently in the article, it is, IMHO, important to state somewhere in the lead that the Reform Party is structured as a limited liability company with Farage as its principal shareholder. Any reader who has a modicum of intelligence will realise then that while the party faithful we’re able to depose Corbyn, Johnson and many other political party leaders, Farage’s position within the party is safe. As such, the structure of the Reform Party is so fundamentally different to that of any other party, it needs to be highlighted in ok s early as possible- in my view in the first paragraph of the lead. 2A00:23C8:1DAE:2401:C89D:8D6F:8D1B:649D (talk) 17:01, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed with this. Reform UK is unique in its model and this should be reflected in the lead. It is a structured more like a company than as a political party. DWMemories (talk) 17:43, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Given that Nigel Garage’s name appears so frequently in the article, it is, IMHO, important to state somewhere in the lead that the Reform Party is structured as a limited liability company with Farage as its principal shareholder. Any reader who has a modicum of intelligence will realise then that while the party faithful we’re able to depose Corbyn, Johnson and many other political party leaders, Farage’s position within the party is safe. As such, the structure of the Reform Party is so fundamentally different to that of any other party, it needs to be highlighted in ok s early as possible- in my view in the first paragraph of the lead. 2A00:23C8:1DAE:2401:C89D:8D6F:8D1B:649D (talk) 17:01, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- As the balance of the sources don't seem to give much/any weight to it, then neither should we. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Additional ideologies
[edit]Thoughts on adding these ideologies to the infobox?
- Anti-immigration[1][2][3][4][5], probably worth noting the party themselves reject this label[6] but that comment could be considered undue.
- British nationalism and / or national conservatism[7][2], didn't find too much sourcing off a quick look but it has been talked of before.
Icantthinkofausernames (talk) 21:22, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Per WP:INFOBOX, "The purpose of an infobox is to summarize, but not supplant, the key facts that appear in an article". That means we need the article to conclude somewhere in the main body what the party's ideologies are, so we need some discussion on these to appear in the article body first, then we can consider adding them to the infobox. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:57, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Is immigration costing the Conservatives votes?". ukandeu.ac.uk.
- ^ a b Mammone, Andrea. "Does Reform UK's election success signal a far-right future for Britain?". Al Jazeera. Retrieved 2024-08-19.
- ^ "Fed up with the UK Conservatives, some voters turn to the anti-immigration Reform party for answers". AP News. 2024-06-26. Retrieved 2024-08-19.
- ^ "Many U.K. Conservative voters are considering switching to the anti-immigration Reform party". PBS News. 2024-06-26. Retrieved 2024-08-19.
- ^ Castle, Stephen (2024-07-05). "Reform U.K.'s Success Is Latest Sign of Strength for Europe's Far Right". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2024-08-19.
- ^ "Reform UK is not anti-immigration, says deputy Chairman". BBC News. 2024-06-11. Retrieved 2024-08-19.
- ^ "Lord Kinnock urges Labour to combat Reform's nationalism". BBC News. 2024-06-29. Retrieved 2024-08-19.
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