Talk:Phi Gamma Delta

Frequently asked questions

Q1: Should the Greek letters be removed because Wikipedia is not one of the seven places where they can be shown?

A1: One of Wikipedia's central policies is that Wikipedia is not censored. Removing the letters because of FIJI's bylaws is considered to be a form of censorship. Wikipedia is not a member of FIJI, and is therefore not bound by its rules.

Q2: Should the Greek letters be removed to avoid offending members of the fraternity?

A2: There are many reasons why some groups want to censor Wikipedia, but one of Wikipedia's central policies is that it is not censored. Some organizations' bylaws ask for certain information to be hidden, some religions ask that some images or spellings be avoided, some people want to avoid seeing spoilers, some information is considered not safe for work, some information is considered to be inappropriate for children. Wikipedia cannot accomodate all of these demands and still be a neutral and free source of information. Warnings about what content might appear in Wikipedia is contained in the content disclaimer.

Q3: FIJI rarely uses its Greek letters, so do they really represent the fraternity?

A3: Because the images are used on member badges, on the seal, on the flag, on houses, on memorials to deceased members, on a certificates of membership, and on a college rings, the consensus of Wikipedia editors is that the Greek letters do, in fact, represent FIJI.

Q4: Why do we need to have the Greek letters in the article?

A4: It has been long-standing consensus, lead by members of WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities, that including the Greek letters in articles about fraternities provided encyclopaedically useful information.

Q5: Must Wikipedia remove the letters because they are trademarked by Fiji?

A5: Under Florida law, the publisher of an encyclopedia does not require permission to include a trademarked name in an article about the owner of the trademark. In addition, Phi Gamma Delta does not hold the trademark for the three greek letters in that combination. It does have a trademark for the letters spelled out in English: Phi Gamma Delta

Q6: Should an article about a secretive organization be written by members of that organization?

A6: Members of an organization are likely to have a conflict of interest with articles about that organization. They should therefore take extra care to be neutral when editing the article, and in many cases, they should avoid editing it altogether and should instead request that others make the needed edits. The fact that the organization is secretive makes no difference because all information in the article should be cited to a reliable and verifiable source.

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Archives

Archive 1

Current information about Danny Daniels is incorrect

Article currently states: "It was found out that the fraternity hosted a large party the night before, and that members forced Daniels to drink large amounts of alcohol for initiation. Once he became sick, a few FIJI brothers carried him to a secluded room at the fraternity and left him"

First thing to note is that the first source listed is about a different Fresno State student named "Omar Nemeth," not Danny Daniels.

Second is that the statement that "the fraternity hosted a large party the night before" is incorrect because the date coincides when school was not in session between semesters, so the fraternity was not operational and few fraternity members or Fresno State students were even in town.

Third, at the time of his death, Danny Daniels was not in any way a member of Fiji, he was friends with some of the members and was living in the house. He would not have been involved in any kind of "initiation ceremony," and the fraternity would not be holding any kind of ceremony while school was not in session.

Fourth, the room that he died in was his bedroom (as I mentioned, he was living in the house), not some secluded room that he'd been taken to.

These are the facts that conflict with the current description in the article: Danny Daniels lived in the fraternity house and was found dead in his own bedroom. Danny Daniels was not a member of Fiji and as such was not involved in any sort of initiation ceremony. Danny Daniels was actually not even a Fresno State student at the time (was not a student the previous semester and was not enrolled as a student for the upcoming semester). This alone makes him ineligible for membership in Fiji. When he died, school was not in session and the fraternity was not operating.

I know that Wikipedia doesn't like original sources but I know these things because I was a Fiji at Fresno State when Danny Daniels died. I'm not trying to do PR for Fiji or anything, I just hate to see such a blatantly false description of what happened. I'll try to dig up sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.113.56.113 (talk) 18:30, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for declaring your conflict of Interest. I will be happy to work with you on improving the article. I agree that none of the sources indicate that that Mr. Daniels was a student or a Pledge. The first source while about Omar Nemeth mentions the situation with Danny Daniels. The editor who added it is MYLARRRR and as such I have alerted him of this conversation.

If you have a proposal for a rewrite, I will be happy to consider making the change. I don't feel comfortable *completely* dropping it from the article at this time, however I think there are two other changes. First, when the change is made, the entire section should be renamed to controversies as it is on other fraternity pages, and Second, The entry for Danny Daniels should be dropped from List of hazing deaths in the United States unless some other reference can be made that he was a pledge.Naraht (talk) 20:43, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2021 - Gettysburg College Fiji Chapter Suspended until 2023

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Add to complaints about behavior. In 2020, Gettysburg College suspended the Phi Gamma Delta until January 1st, 2023 due to violations of the COVID-19 protocols. The chapter hosted a party in September 2020 after Gettysburg College went into quarantine.

https://gettysburgian.com/2020/12/college-suspends-phi-gamma-delta-fiji-fraternity-chapter-until-2023-citing-egregious-covid-19-protocol-violations-and-years-of-conduct-concerns/#:~:text=The%20Phi%20Gamma%20Delta%20(FIJI,housing%20during%20the%20suspension%20period. Banjo509 (talk) 00:46, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: WP:NOTNEWS, I fail to see how one chapter is significant enough to warrant mention here. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:08, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2022

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Requesting the removal of the Greek letters from this page. The International Fraternity of Phi Gamma Delta, in accordance with its laws, is not permitted to have their letters written outside of certain contexts including a class ring, chapter house, certificate of membership, flag, badge, seal, and memorial. 199.120.30.239 (talk) 20:02, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: We're not the fraternity, so we're not beholden to its laws. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:18, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Expanding on the above: Wikipedia is not censored. We have pictures of Mohammed, we print the name of the Jewish God, and we have y'all's letters. —C.Fred (talk) 20:19, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also, please read the FAQ entries at the top of the page, they specifically deal with this issue where as far as I can tell, Phi Gamma Delta is unique among the Greek Letter Organizations.Naraht (talk) 17:29, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2022

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The information on the Hazing event at the University of Missouri is missing some things and factually incorrect. 1) It should specify University of Missouri - Columbia (As opposed to the also existing University of Missouri - Kansas City). The are otherwise unable to be told apart without the city and that is their legal proper name. 2) The name of the victim student is known, it is Daniel Santulli who was 19 years old at the time of the incident. This is also important because some charges were hazing, others were providing to a minor. 3) He was not "found unresponsive" by University Police, but he was instead driven to the University Hospital by fraternity brothers, police had nothing to do with any of it and were not involved until after the fact. 4) There is more known now, lawsuits and at the moment of this writing, 2 people charged with felonies for their role. 5) Victim is now blind, unable to walk (wheelchair bound), and unable to speak/communicate, and suffered brain damage. (According to his family's attorney, not medically verified, but publicly stated and included on lawsuit paperwork) 6) The University did say it disciplined members of the fraternity, but no details were given.

NOTE: The biggest thing I want to point out is that while it is missing information, it is inaccurate to say that "Police at the University of Missouri found an unresponsive freshman after a fraternity party in 2021" as paperwork filed with the court has stated as well: "The lawsuit states Santulli’s “skin was pale and his lips were blue, yet no one called 911.” Instead, the decision was made to drive Santulli to University Hospital in Columbia in one of the brother’s cars." It is also known that this was not just an alcohol overdose, but was hazing on a pledge during their "dad reveal".

Sources: https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/two-st-louis-county-men-indicted-in-mizzou-hazing-that-left-freshman-blind-unable-to/article_48ed38ce-0c8f-54ce-9ec6-de09fb1fc4b8.html https://www.columbiatribune.com/story/news/2022/06/17/danny-santulli-felony-charges-fiji-hazing-missouri-mizzou-fraternity-brothers/7665422001/ https://www.columbiatribune.com/story/news/education/campus/2022/06/16/mizzou-greek-life-hazing-involving-alcohol-entrenched-missouri-campus-report-says/7633021001/ https://fox59.com/news/national-world/hazing-incident-leaves-university-of-missouri-student-unable-to-see-talk-or-walk/ Zacklovin (talk) 18:21, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've adjusted the page language with this information and the four offered references. So sad. Jax MN (talk) 19:06, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Thank you for the edit! Zacklovin (talk) 04:39, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2022

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The section on the Butler Sexual assault is inaccurate, it says "...Crawfordsville, Indiana police told her Butler University has no formal code of conduct and that the student who assaulted her would face few consequences" It is not Butler University that has no formal code of conduct, but Wabash College. This should be changed to accurately reflect the facts.

Source: https://www.wabash.edu/aboutwabash/rule Xyban9 (talk) 01:34, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done Cannolis (talk) 01:46, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2023

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REMOVE THE GREEK LETTERS FROM THE SIDEBAR. IT IS VERY LIMITED USE; Farhan.frc (talk) 02:29, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: @Farhan.frc: Wikipedia is under no obligation to follow the fraternity's guidelines for the limited use. —C.Fred (talk) 02:31, 22 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

An observation, for FIJI brothers. This issue, regarding your Greek letters, has been rehashed ad nauseum, for perhaps fifteen years here on Wikipedia. Every year or so, a well-meaning collegian comes to the party late, and decides to edit those deeply meaningful letters he sees so scandalously portrayed on a fleeting website. "They're not one of the seven approved usages", he opines. So, with all the passion of a devoted young member, he edits them away. ...And is promptly swatted down by mean ol' editors who deny him this edit. Passions are inflamed. The deletion of the letters is abruptly reversed, with nary a comment, nor explanation. Perhaps only a cryptic "see FAQ", and you are left thinking, "Where the hell is that? Who does that mean 'ol editor think he or she is?" Because you are new here.

Here's the deal. We're not trying to be mean or disrespectful. Many of us are devoted Greeks. We work on these pages to fix or prevent vandalism, and to ensure at least a fair summary of all organizations within this class, and some 3,000 pages connected in some way with Greek life. The 'FIJI letters rule' is unique among national fraternities, and likely was a marketing and training decision made long ago by the founders or early members of the fraternity. It's your quirk, and for my part, I smile, nod and respect it -- for your own usage. You can control how YOU use it, but newspapers, college websites, Wikipedia and other media aren't beholden to your rules. To us, it is a less onerous (~annoying) demand than, say, Ohio State people who insist on inserting "The" in front of the school's name here and everywhere else they see it. We delete that, too. You've now been trapped into the Streisand effect by bringing attention to it here. Edits that delete the FIJI letters are now noticed and tracked by dozens and dozens of intensely devoted Wikipedia editors, and reverted within moments.

The compromise can be this: An editor can include language on the Phi Gamma Delta page, noting that internal usage rules discourage (even disallow) presentation of the letters on any but the seven approved locations. Such wording is there, now. This is factual, supported by citable references, and it is interesting. But nevertheless, on Wikipedia we will cordially, but resolutely revert all attempts to delete the Greek letters. This is an enforced internal consistency shared with articles about other GLOs which we track. To allow this for FIJI would be to devolve into favoritism. Soon, every GLO would want to insert their own "special" rule, and endless one-upmanship, which would create confusion. Jax MN (talk) 19:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(I personally have been involved in this discussion for 15 years. (May of 2008 is the first comment on the talk archive page from me I can find.)Naraht (talk) 00:17, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]