Talk:Saint Erik

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On 22 June 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Eric IX of Sweden to Saint Erik. The result of the discussion was moved.

Eric's Cult Forbidden?[edit]

Can we have some documentation on this, the cult being forbidden by ALexander III? The Catholic still celebrates Eric's feast on May 18, and he is listed in the Roman Martyrology. He is venerated as a holy king and a martyr.

Name?[edit]

How come the article is named Eric IX of Sweden? Im no expert, but was he really called "IX" during his lifetime? Theres no way that there could have been eight kings named Eric before him, så why the number nine?

According to the namin policy, the name that the person is most known as should be used. In sweden that is "Erik den Helige", but what is it in the rest of the world? I dont know, usually I read swedish history in swedish...

Someone who knows anything about this?

--Screensaver 11:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The first Eric to use a serial number was Eric XIV. For the rest before him, they were invented later. Eric IX was earlier known just as king Eric. --Drieakko 11:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note that Eric is not an offical Catholic saint, so calling him saint internationally is somewhat questionable. --Drieakko 11:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The numbering scheme is due to Johannes Magnus, who counted Jordanes' Berig as Eric I. He invented a bunch of kings in his history of Sweden. According the the article Eric in Nordisk Familjebok, he assigned the number IX to Eric the Saint, as is done here too. This scheme was adopted by Eric XIV of Sweden and is still used by Carl XVI Gustav of Sweden. However, for the earlier Erics, enwp is out of step with Johannes Magnus. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 21:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed Saint links[edit]

Eric does not fall into category of saints as defined in the respective Saint article in Wikipedia. So I removed the Saint categories from him. --Drieakko 14:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He is however regarded as a saint, and the inclusion of that category is the way that the Saints project can keep track of the article. The project has recently expanded its scope to include all those who are commemorated in liturgical calendars, and the article makes it clear that this individual is so commemorated. I have on that basis restored a saints category. The article in question is however being worked on, and I may try to change the category to another later. John Carter 19:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Drieakko: You're dead wrong. Saint Eric of Sweden has an entry in the Roman Martyrology of the Catholic Church, and has an entry in several authoritative collections of Catholic saints' lives, for instance Butler's Lives of the Saints, which is quasi-official. DominvsVobiscvm (talk) 08:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 June 2024[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 00:06, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Eric IX of Sweden → Saint Erik – Per WP:COMMONNAME. He is mostly known for his saintly legacy.

Google Books search gives slightly more and better quality results for "Saint Erik" OR "St Erik" than for "Saint Eric" OR "St Eric". The current title "Eric IX", even without territorial designation, is significantly less common.
The name variant with "k" would be more consistent with the article title for his son Knut Eriksson (recently moved).
However, Google Trends shows that in searches the name "Saint Eric" dominates.

The choice between "Saint Eric" and "Saint Erik" seems to depend on how we weight the searches vs. sources. My suggestion is to follow the sources, but I find the other alternative also acceptable. — Jähmefyysikko (talk) 21:54, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Per WP:NPOV, as his sainthood is a PoV. Borsoka (talk) 02:01, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its worth noting that we have Saint Joseph, Saint Nicholas and Saint Peter (presumably others as well), although I suspect that these figures are more closely associated with their Sainthood than Erik/c. Aza24 (talk) 06:41, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The guideline for saints, MOS:SAINTS, allows prefixing the name with "Saint" if the bare name is ambiguous, although it does warn about NPOV. If he was only called Saint or "Holy" in Catholic contexts, I would fully agree that the suggested title is unacceptable. But secular sources also call him Saint Erik or in Swedish Erik den helige. For example, Cambridge History of Scandinavia, Swedish National Biography,Swedish Royal Court.

The sainthood here is of a peculiar sort, so comparison to a more churchly saints must be done with caution. He only reigned very briefly, and not much of him is known as a historical person. Yet he is one of the better known early Swedish kings because of the sainthood which was used to legitimize the monarchy. The Bjälbo kings in particular portrayed him as their holy ancestor. Most of the sources that we have of him, e.g. the hagiographical Erikslegenden, list of kings in Västgöta Law, and Sverris saga, discuss him as a saint.

Let me also note that the current title is non-neutral in another way: the ordinal IX is based on 16th century pseudohistory that portrayed Sweden as more ancient than it actually is, and such posthumously applied numerals are often avoided in modern scholarship. The most neutral title would be Erik Jedvardsson, but that's unfortunately not a WP:COMMONNAME. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 07:53, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, I noticed the same thing. Raulois (talk) 13:38, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. The Cambridge Medieval History calls him St Erik exclusivelly when mentioning his religious relevance. 2. Eric IX has become a common name even if it is not correct. Borsoka (talk) 08:06, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1. I did not find the exact book you refer to, but I can believe that. Typically, history-oriented works introduce him neutrally as either Erik Jedvarsson or plain Erik. But there's very little to be said about the historical person, and the bulk of the discussion necessarily focuses on the Saint/Cult/National symbol, which is the more notable topic.

2. It is relatively common, but Saint Erik is more common since 1950s (Ngram). Curiously, many of the GBooks hits for Eric IX come from saintly literature, whereas "Saint Erik" is used in more scholarly discussions (but is also found in Tourist guides etc).

An additional point: All the Scandinavian encyclopedias and biographical dictionaries use some variant of the name Erik the Holy, so calling him "saint" or "holy" not seem to be considered very controversial locally.[1][2][3][4][5][6]

— I believe I've made all the points I want to. I'll try to withdraw from the conversation now to avoid bludgeoning. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 08:58, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support, in favor of Saint Eric considering that there’s no contemporary sources about him. Raulois (talk) 13:44, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom and to get rid of pseudohistoric numeral. I note that "Eric the holy" has some releavnt useage as well[7], but less than "Saint Erik". Andejons (talk) 10:53, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Per nom. Persevant (talk) 11:37, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. A fuller ngrams search with all the variants [8] confirms that Saint Erik with a K is more common than with a C and than Eric IX/Erik IX. Rosbif73 (talk) 07:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Mellk (talk) 14:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.