Talk:Fox News/Archive 24

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Fox: Discovery

What should be done with television, could not be described on television at this time. Please pardon excessive technical communications difficulties. thanks, Rudy.75.248.42.29 (talk) 01:17, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Huh??? CrAsHeDaTa^talk 12:09, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

No evidence that Fox Received Talking points from Bush

There is absolutely no evidence that the Bush administration gave talking points to Fox. Then why is the headline "Talking points from Bush White House" with a decent size paragraph under it included in the article? Does the fact that someone says something automatically make it worthy of being in wikipedia?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Sydney24 (talk • contribs)

I think you're confusing "truth" with verifiability (the main policy guiding content). :) //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 03:05, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Monsanto Allegations

Admittedly I am not well versed in this Posiliac/wrongful termination story as I probably should be. However, upon following the sources provided this does not seem to fit into this article and definitely not into the section it's currently placed. The newspaper article indicates that the Defendants in the lawsuit was local affiliate Fox13 and not Fox News Channel. Finally, there is not one iota of conservative bias in this story. If this has anything to do with FNC (and I don't see how it would), it would seem to be about corporate meddling in journalism. As it currently stands it should probably be removed from this article and placed in a more appropriate place, i.e. the article on Monsanto. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 17:09, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Good point. The story was not about FNC and the source does not mention conservative bias, although an argument could be made that it was. However the story should appear in some article. The Four Deuces (talk) 17:48, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

It is already here where it should be. Occasionally some random editor will put it into the FNC article. The editor which icluded it here also put it into FNC Controversies and Fox Broadcasting. Arzel (talk) 18:21, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

If you would have looked you would see that station is owned by Fox and is an arm of Fox News. Fox(corp) was the one defending in that case as point as well. --Marlin1975 (talk) 11:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Even if that made any difference, this article is about FNC, not News Corp. They are seperate entities. Arzel (talk) 13:55, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

It does seem out of place in this article. Gamaliel (talk) 20:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

FNC & NPR

There was a big story on NPR (All Things Considered) tonight regarding Fox News Channel increasing association and mutually self-serving relationship with the GOP. I'm on vacation this week and don't have a lot of time to dedicate to the discussion currently, but this gorilla is approaching 800+ pounds and will have to be dealt with soon. I'll do some worthwhile research and formulation next week, but I don't see how this article can continue to skirt or under-report this issue any longer. More to follow... //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Big story? Too bad nobody will be watching :) Have a good vacation. --Tom (talk) 22:17, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Meh, it seems to be dying actually, just a blip on the radar. I could be wrong, but it seems everyone but Huffington, NPR, and FAIR have now stopped mentioning it... Soxwon (talk) 22:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Aaah, the same old Blax. Badmintonhist (talk) 22:34, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Well let's take this one by one:

• To Tom -- Given that no one "watches" National Public Radio, I think your comments properly convey the fact that you have no clue what I'm even talking about, and your opinion seems solely based on an agenda you wish to service. As such, and since you didn't even bother to try and educate yourself to the contrary (with helpful link provided!), I don't think your opinion carries much weight.
• To Soxwon -- NPR is a very important and very well respected journalistic organization, and when they dedicate 4+ minutes of their daily programming to this topic, it's far from a "blip" on the radar -- when an organization trusted to moderate one of three national presidential debates dedicates this much coverage to the blurred line between journalism and servicing a political party it is a very big deal.
• To Badmintonhist -- did you have something of value to add, or is your purpose to simply try and make ad hominem implications based on the source?

//Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:23, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Blaxthos, my agenda remains the same as I see your bias against Fox and agenda pushing due to your bias also remains unchanged. Oh well....--Tom (talk) 14:35, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I can appreciate NPR's status, it is also well established, however, that they are rather partisan in their coverage. Soxwon (talk) 00:44, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Blax, it would seem to me that you should actually have more time to work on this story now that you are on vacation. Or is wiki work your full time job? Badmintonhist (talk) 00:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Woo-ha, quel suprie! Tom, have you any meaningful contribution, or just more smartassery ? //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 01:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

NPR is not partisan in its coverage. And the story was not about "Fox News Channel's increasing association...with the GOP". It is about the White House's accusation. The Four Deuces (talk) 01:02, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

TFD is correct, though don't be fooled by the singular title -- give the whole story a listen and it gives a much more in-depth analysis of the issue than just "The White House Says foo". Also, (GENERALIZATION ALERT!) the only people I've ever seen claim that NPR is biased are those who (1) hail from an extremely fringe viewpoint, and (2) only trust extremely partisan news sources (which is in-and-of-itself ironic). I think you'll be hard pressed to find a more respected organization than NPR (other than perhaps the Associated Press, though they're not a publisher of record, but rather a collector and aggregator). That NPR is now covering this in-depth lends a lot more weight to the points, and we'd be remiss if we don't give it such. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 01:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

BLAX!!! What gives? I thought I could at least trust you on simple matters of objective fact. The NPR story wasn't about a supposed tie-in between Fox and the GOP at all. That charge was only mentioned in passing by a White House spokeswoman who was being interviewed. Maybe you really do need a vacation from Wikipedia, Blax. Nice work Four Deuces. Badmintonhist (talk) 01:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious to me that Tom, Badmintonhist, and Soxwon are all super interested in trying to dismiss this before it's even discussed; I'd put even money that the three of them didn't even bother listening to the story. Gimme a day or two to get in touch with the NPR team that did the story and try to get a transcript. They clearly addressed the blurring (and now almost indistinguishable) line between FNC's "news" and opinion programming, and no amount of "OMFG BLAX" is going to change that. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 01:55, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Is this vacation thing some kind of in-joke between the two of you? Because to the rest of us it looks like you're just trolling here. If you want to rib him, take it to personal talk pages, please. Gamaliel (talk) 01:51, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

No joke, he's just trolling (which only underlines the point that his interest is pretty far from actually improving this article). Moving along, I just emailed David Folkenflik to obtain a transcript, so we can move from discussing strawmen and one-line summaries towards discussing the actual content. I'll let everyone know if/when David responds. Cheers! //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 02:02, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Who was the "trolling" comment directed at? --Tom (talk) 14:38, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Go to the NPR story if you haven't already, Gamaliel, then tell us how accurately Blaxthos has represented it in his initial entry in this section. Is it work befitting a serious editor or work befitting a partisan hack? Badmintonhist (talk) 02:03, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

You can disagree with his characterization of a news report without the histrionics. I notice you haven't posted any kind of similar response to Soxwon's statement, which is much more preposterous than anything you allege about Blaxthos' statements. I don't know if you are picking sides here because it's personal or political or both, but dial it back. This kind of thing doesn't help anyone edit an article. Gamaliel (talk) 02:08, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't know which Soxwon statement you're referring to, Gamaliel. That NPR is partisan? In any case it doesn't really matter. The only reason we're having a discussion here is because of Blaxthos's initial offering, which presents an utterly distorted description of an NPR story. Badmintonhist (talk)`

And, once again, I hope we can have that discussion without the histrionics. Can we do that please? Gamaliel (talk) 02:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

My statements were made based on actually hearing the story, as opposed to a few-word headline (which, presumably, is what they're reacting to). A transcript will both give a better understanding of my points, and show that the comments by the 3 Musketeers above were made without actually bothering to listen to it. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 02:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

No Blax, I listened to the whole story too. It wasn't about what you said it was about, period. Badmintonhist (talk) 02:25, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Recap for those that haven't followed this story very closely. Obama goes on every major (and some minor) Sunday morning news talk shows. Chris Wallace calls the Obama administraion a bunch of cry-babies. Anita Dunn calls FNC an arm of the GOP and the Whitehouse starts a blog site to attack FNC. FNC states that FNC is simply not biased like the rest of the MSM and points to the Pew study which shows FNC was the most balanced in it's news stories, equally positive and negative towards Obama and McCain, while CNN and MSNBC were overwhelmingly more negative towards McCain and positive towards Obama and that their opinion programs are not the same as their news programs. CNN does a fact-check of a SNL skit to judge it's truthfulness. Jon Stewart satires CNN's fact-checking of a an SNL skit. NPR and others now question the logic of going after a major news organization that "gets is ink by the barrel". Is this worthy of inclusion, possibly. FNC opinion programs are clearly very negative towards several Obama positions, and have openly mocked his winning of the Nobel Peace Prize (Along with a host of others). The Obama Administration is clearly whining about their coverage from Hannity and Beck while appearing to welcome the fawning by Olbermann and Matthews et al. The question is what and how much to include if any. Arzel (talk) 03:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Arzel, for confining your comments to the actual issues (respect +1). However, I don't know that I'd agree with your summarization -- you've made no secret in the past of your belief that "FNC is the center" and everyone else is biased, and I certainly think that you're poisoning the well by using subjective language like "whining". We can debate the actual points later, but I wanted to point out that I appreciate the fact that you're distinguishing yourself from the others above. Thanks! //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 03:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

A much better example poisoning the well can be found in the opening sentence of this talk page topic. Not only does Blaxthos misrepresent the NPR story that he references (as a big story about a tie-in between Fox News and the GOP, when it is actually a story about the Obama administration's antipathy toward Fox) but he does it with wording that is biased even if the basic premise behind it were true. Badmintonhist (talk) 06:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

My apologies if my characterizations come across as inaccurate -- at the time of my original posting, the story was not available online and was based solely upon hearing the story once (during the actual broadcast), and admittedly I seem to have missed the first 30-45 seconds of the story. The transcript is now available; please read the following quotes and evaluate them:

Mr. Obama faces a changed media landscape with Fox News and now MSNBC, says John Harwood of The New York Times and CNBC. In newspapers, Harwood says, the hard news divisions determine the agenda; not the editorial page.

— David Folkenflik, NPR

She says the supposed wall between Fox's news programs and its sprawling opinion shows has become extremely porous.

— David Folkenflik, NPR

Republicans were making related claims, and Fox News reporter James Rosen's story appeared the next hour.

— David Folkenflik, NPR (in reference to how "news" programs on FNC take their cues from editorial shows (WITH examples!)

So, to be sure, I may have misunderstood the focus of the story having come in a minute late and the online/transcript versions were unavailable -- for any confusion I may have caused, I apologize. However, the lack of good faith as evidenced by the first three comments made in response (especially the ignorance they contained with regards to the actual facts) is appalling. Beyond all of that, the fact that NPR is doing a story on the difference between FNC and other news organizations is quote significant... that it was already being discussed before this programme aired should only bolster the case that the gorilla has passed the 800 pound mark, and despite the best efforts of the "Fox is Balanced" crowd the Wikipedia article must acknowledge these claims and deal with them (note -- this doesn't mean I think we should validate or repudiate them, but we absolutely have to mention them). Hope this helps clear things up. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 12:59, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure how the Obama administration's crying about their coverage from FNC because FNC won't toe the company (Obama's) line has turned into how FNC is not balanced. The stories (and there are many) seem to be focusing on how the Obama administration is willing to talk to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad but not Glenn Beck and how the Obama administration continues to act as if they are campainging rather than governing. NPR is a bit player in this and they can hardly be called a neutral voice. Arzel (talk) 14:05, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Blaxthos, please do not refer to me as/in the "Fox is Balanced" crowd. You don't know the first thing about me or what I believe even though you think you do. --Tom (talk) 18:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

It's funny watching you whine about Blaxthos' label given how often you throw labels around yourself. IndyObserver (talk) 22:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Arzel, you are not helping your argument in saying that "NPR is a bit player in this and they can hardly be called a neutral voice". Note that it is a news source and does not make claims like Fox News is associated with the GOP. The Four Deuces (talk) 19:59, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I was simply stating that just because NPR has also done a story on this, it doesn't elevate this dramatically. There have been numerous stories about this whole issue since Dunn made her statements. Let me also reiterate the stories seem to focus almost entirely on the Obama Administration attacking FNC (NPR included). Arzel (talk) 21:23, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

NPR certainly isn't a "bit player", and your repeated attempts to paint FNC as the victim ("attacked", "whining", etc.), coupled with your previous statements about FNC, really make it hard to take your statements at face value. NPR doing a story on this absolutely makes it more significant than if it was only covered by Huffington post and the like. Please stop trying to color this as insignificant or unwarranted -- the very fact that NPR is now running with it elevates it far beyond "blips on the radar" etc... //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:49, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't mis-interpret my position. I am just saying that NPR is no more important than many of the other reliable sources. In that sense they are all bit players as they all contribute a bit to the discussion as a whole. Point being, any inclusion should not be dominated by the point of view of any one source. We have reliable sources and non-reliable sources. We don't split reliable sources into degrees of importance. Also, when Liberal rags like The Nation runs stories calling Obama the Whiner in Chief and call out Obama attacking FNC I think it is pretty fair to say that the Obama Administration is doing a little bit of whining. Arzel (talk) 19:09, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

The intro needs major changes

Its time for this Wikipedia page to say what Fox News is really about. It is not a legitimate or credible news organization, it has been shown to lie and even make up facts and statistics consistently, it has an agenda (it is the Republican Parties mouth piece, no one can deny this any longer, Fox News doesnt even seem to care about hiding that fact anymore), and its sole dedication is to ruin the reputations of people who the conservatives do not like.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, it must reflect the reality of whats going on. This article is not neutral, and its not even truthful. The intro has to reflect what Fox News really is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.160.192 (talk) 00:36, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

My suggestion for the intro (this is a rough draft):

The Fox News Channel (FNC), commonly referred to as Fox or Fox News, is a major American conservative cable and satellite channel owned by the Fox Entertainment Group, a subsidiary of News Corporation. As of April 2009, it is available to 102 million households in the U.S. and further to viewers internationally, broadcasting primarily out of its New York City studios.

The channel was created by Australian-American media mogul Rupert Murdoch, who hired Roger Ailes as its founding CEO. The channel was launched on October 7, 1996[1] to 17 million cable subscribers. The network slowly rose to prominence in the late 1990s. In terms of regular viewers (Nielsen ratings), Fox News rates as the United States' number one cable news network.[2]

Many observers say that Fox News Channel's programming promotes conservative political positions.[3][4][5][6] Consistently, Fox News has been proven to make up facts and statistics and spread "news" that is entirely untrue or manipulated, to fulfill a conservative agenda. Fox News Channel denies any bias in the channel's reporting, maintaining a distinction between its news coverage and editorial programming.[7][8][9]

I can add sources or bring them up on the talk page (all one really has to do is look at the Fox News Controversies page on Wikipedia, which isnt even half of it) but what I wrote above is basically a rough draft. Any thoughts?

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.160.192 (talk) 00:40, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

You have said both that Fox is American conservative and American Republican. But these are two different views. The Bush administration was opposed by American conservatives for their support of immigration reform, Arab ownership of the ports administration, education reform and the banks bailout. Which side did Fox take? The Four Deuces (talk) 04:25, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

In addition to the sources used, nuances such as these are exactly why the introduction should read "Republican Party" in addition to "conservative." The only thing preventing this are obvious partisans who are reverting with insults or without edit summaries at all (none of whom, I would note, have been warned by anyone for their behavior). IndyObserver (talk) 16:49, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

You really need better sources than news reports. There is a book written about The Sun, Stick it up your punter,[1] that made a detailed study of that newspaper. You really need something similar for Fox News. Obviously any 24 hour live news network will make countless errors and some coverage will be biased. Putting these examples in to support a view of FN as biased is original research. You also have to distinguish between news reporting and talk shows. Most networks have talk shows similar to those on Fox. The Four Deuces (talk) 17:35, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

In response to the first comment, Fox News is also a nationalist cable channel. The Bush administration had many ties to Arab dictators, everyone knows this. Fox News has no problem with that, or most of anything else that Bush did, but what Fox News had a problem with was Arabs (or foreigners for that matter, my comment should not be misconstrued as implying that Fox News has a racial bias) controlling American ports. We could use Republican if you feel that the term conservative is too broad. Like I said, that was just a rough draft.

You cannot use the excuse that FN is the same as other 24 hour news networks and thus makes "mistakes". Look at the CNN page. CNN is accused of being both liberal and conservative, which shows that they at least try to portray both sides. Not so with Fox. Also, CNN for example, and other 24 hour cable news networks, have made far less "mistakes" than FN. So what does that say about the quality of FN? FN appears to make a lot of "mistakes" doesnt it, especially when Republican Senators who are in the midst of scandals are labeled as Democrats (did any other news network make such mistakes? or as frequently?) Fox News is not a news organization, and even if you contend that it is, its certainly not credible or respectable.

It has gotten to the point where Fox News no longer can credibly deny the fact that it is biased, and is not a credible news organization.

So, when all the commentators are Republican/conservative, when all the talk shows are Republican/conservative, the news anchors are Republican/conservative and all the opinion shows are Republican/conservative (when I say this I mean in the way they report, their biases, the questions they ask/dont ask, the way news is reported, etc...) without the slightest bit of an attempt at neutrality, what does it say about FN?

Whether you are Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal, thats beside the point. Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopaedia. Facts come first. Biases need to be set aside. Lets not get partisan here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.160.253 (talk • contribs) 20:45, 16 October 2009

(←) This isn't a forum for what we think about Fox News. If you have proposals for changing the lede of the article, you should probably begin with several reliable sources agreeing (nearly verbatim) with what it is you want in the article. user:J aka justen (talk) 20:51, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Agree totally. I have removed a long rambling forum post that includes an attacks on an individual which does not help and covers an number of off topic themes. Anyways, --Tom (talk) 22:33, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I've reinstated -- Tom, you should be blocked and topicbanned for that. I strongly suggest the admin bring your ass to ANI for edit-warring over removing comments by an editor with whom you ideologically disagree. Do it again and I'll personally make sure it happens. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 23:02, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Your dislike and bias against fox is again showing. POV agenda pushing editors like yourself are a scurge to this project. --Tom (talk) 23:06, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

It appears as though some Wikipedia editors have been attempting to remove my comments. This is a DISCUSSION page, so yes, it is a forum for discussion. By the way, who did I attack?130.126.160.253 (talk) 23:29, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

It is not a forum for general discussion about the subject of the article but a place to discuss improvements to the article. You included some rambling about ex presidents and arabs and what not which is not approriate regardless of what the POV agenda pushers say and revert. --Tom (talk) 23:35, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

The policy WP:FORUM refers to not using talk pages like a message board to air out political views. Since you were talking about article content and potential changes, removing your comments were not proper. Political opinions will creep into all of our comments, but we should all remember that the purpose of this page is discussing article content. Gamaliel (talk) 23:37, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Gamaliel, please tell user Tom to stop removing my comments and telling me that I cannot use the discussion page in order to discuss the intro, which is what all of this is about.130.126.160.253 (talk) 23:41, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, writing Fox News is not a news organization, and even if you contend that it is, its certainly not credible or respectable. is not a forum comment. Geesh --Tom (talk) 23:42, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Given your comments to Blaxthos today, I don't think you should lecture others about proper talk page comments. Let it go and let's get back to the article, please. Gamaliel (talk) 23:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I read "Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism" ages ago, and it had a fair amount of observation of these sorts of things. Why keep reinserting unsourced, poorly written blather into the lede when you actually have the opportunity to properly source and properly write something, and why not try to build consensus on that content? user:J aka justen (talk) 11:08, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Some critics and observers?

How is one a critic of something unless he/she has already observed it?

"Some critics and observers of the channel say that Fox News Channel promotes conservative political positions."

No, that sounds like someone who doesn't want to admit that it is a bit biased.

Reality: "Some observers say that FNC promotes conservative political positions." Tdinatale (talk) 01:49, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with this. The critics and observers language was a compromise between editors who believe that only critics have this perception and those who believe "everyone" has this perception. I would support either version. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 01:01, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

To satisfy the idea that the the perception of Fox's conservatism is widespread, how about: Many observers say that the Fox News Channel promotes conservative political positions.? Badmintonhist (talk) 18:33, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

That sounds biased, but it is absolutely true. Although we could argue that their far right TV shows with hosts such as Huckabee and Glenn Beck ... Bill Oreilly and Sean Hannity FAR exceed the 2 (most liberal) liberal hosts on MSNBC. Regardless, FNC is very far to the right that even Billo admitted. The intro needs to change to reflect their conservatism instead of just giving them leg room by saying "some" people think they're biased. No, they ARE biased. Tdinatale (talk) 19:53, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Do you have evidence to back that up? Because again, this is relative depending upon whom you compare it to. I'd be willing to argue very strongly that Olbermann, Matthews and co. are just as biased as those on Fox, and that Fox isn't that far from center (otherwise they wouldn't get the highest ratings consistently). Soxwon (talk) 21:46, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Again with the false logic -- FNC's ratings have nothing to do with the "center". Remember -- more people watch CNN for shorter periods of time; FNC has a smaller userbase, they just watch fervently for hours and hours upon end, which actually gives more credibility to a rabid fringe than a centrist position. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Then where do you get the justification for calling it conservative? Soxwon (talk) 00:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

57 million cume viewers for FNC compared to 74 million cume viewers for CNN in 2008. You are right, 57 million is a rabid fringe. </sarc> Arzel (talk) 01:22, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

If Bill O'Reilly admitted FNC is far right, Tdinatale, why not find the source for that admission and use that? I think that statement alone would be far more meaningful than the amorphous "many observers," or similar language. Dcs002 (talk) 23:39, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Who said anything about ratings? Just because they have high ratings doesn't mean they are more centered, it could mean the exact opposite! They have high ratings because they're always angry and yelling at people whom they disagree with... like Jerry Springer. Imagine that. Tdinatale (talk) 01:26, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, but we're getting off track again with what amounts to a debate about the comparative ideological biases of Fox and MSNBC. Wikipedia already notes that some folks think that MSNBC has moved to the left. That can be refined later. Here we're supposed to be discussing if and how the statement about Fox's alleged bias should be modified. My formulation is pretty basic but I think it should be satisfactory. What do others think about it? I apologize to Gamaliel for leaving a syllable out of his name. Badmintonhist (talk) 01:29, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, I just think "some critics" needs to be removed (and same with the MSNBC) article. It just looks stupid. Why would one be a critic of something if they did not already observe it? In both articles, if it just said (in each article respectively) "Some observers say MSNBC/FNC promotes liberal/conservative political positions." Tdinatale (talk) 01:42, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

thanks. No harm done, I just thought it was funny because I can't spell KO's name at all. Gamaliel (talk) 04:54, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Good to change? Tdinatale (talk) 11:10, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Wow.. Gone for the weekend and so much talk to catch up on! I agree with the elimination of "some". I'd like to move back to the language that Ramsquire was orignally considering though. My proposal is "Many observers of the channel criticize/say that Fox News for intentionally biased promotion of/promotes conservative political positions. Fox News Channel publicly denies any bias in the channel's reporting and claims to only give room to both sides."
The reason I think we might want use "critize" is because simply using "Some observers say" sounds like FNC just happens to be right leaning, rather than that FNC consciencely promotes a conservative agenda.
Blaxthos- Please don't hate me for disagreement on your false dicotomy arguement. I'm not arguing that the Fox News article has to be written the same way the MSNBC article is written (and include the same language). I merely argue that there should be a uniform approach to addressing allegded bias between articles and was holding up MSNBC as an example.NickCT (talk) 13:42, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Nick I couldnt agree more... Although "viewers" instead of "observers" would make more sense? Tdinatale (talk) 14:49, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Do you have some sources that back up your claim that many observers/viewers say that FNC is intentially promoting conservative political positions? That is a pretty big hurdle to leap. Arzel (talk) 15:45, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry fellows, but no. Whether a word such as "criticize" or a word such as "say" is used says nothing about whether Fox is "doing it on purpose". Moreover it's not our task here to judge how deliberate Fox's presumed conservatism is. An awful lot of "observers" have said that Fox News is pretty conservative. Some have criticized Fox for this but many have also praised Fox for this. Our task is to be neutral in presenting verifiable facts. It is not to join either chorus. Badmintonhist (talk) 15:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, I think you may have come across the reason the lead, as flawed as it is, should remain unchanged, and exactly where the controversy lies. It's not in whether FNC has a bias, but how the perception of bias is viewed. Your sentence- Some have criticized Fox for this but many have also praised Fox for this-- could easily read Many have criticized Fox for this but some have also praised Fox for this depending on your POV. Since there is no way to verify which sentence is right, as there are reliable sources for both formulations, I really don't think there is any way to come up with a stronger lead (although if there was it would be preferred) without giving WP a voice on the matter. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 16:21, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

My only proposed modification is to replace "some critics and observers" with "many observers". I think it is a bit less awkward, and satisfies the consensus here that many people, whether they are sympathetic to Fox or not, believe it is more conservative than the other networks. Badmintonhist (talk) 16:37, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

What planet do you people (arzel and badminton) spend most of your time on????? 1. Try the the famous Chris Wallace interview with Bill Clinton for starters. 2. The 3 Fox cluster friends in the morning always promote the conservative positions, NEVER had I EVER heard ANYTHING positive about the Democrats (in fact one morning I turned on fox news and I saw, and I kid you not, 2 white teenagers, wearing tuxedos rapping about how good conservatism is. Ok, I'm honestly sick of hearing "well you gotta prove or show how they promote the conservative cause." My god turn on the TV, wait 30 seconds you'll see! I'm sorry for you conservatives who don't like hearing this but psh, I'm sorry. And don't tell me "they're not doing it on purpose." My ass, I'm sure Fox Noise CEO Roger Ailes, a longtime Republican consultant would have NO desire to promote conservatism. Tdinatale (talk) 16:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Ramsquire- I take your point. Suggest change to "Many observers of the channel say Fox News intentionally biases its promgramming to promote conservative political positions. Fox News Channel publicly denies any bias in the channel's reporting and claims to only give room to both sides." This statement makes the "observers" POV ambiguous (i.e. niether critizing or praising).
Tdinatale- arguing with Arzel is likely pointless NickCT (talk) 16:49, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. We all come to this realization at one point. Gamaliel (talk) 17:32, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

To Badmingtonhist- I can live with changing some critics and observers... to many observers....

To NickCT- I just can't get past the use of intentionally without seeing any reliable sources, supporting that viewpoint. Perhaps you may want to try to develop that theme in the body of the article first and then see if it's possible to get into the lead after its fully fleshed out. But at this point, I can't support it. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 18:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

 DoneTdinatale (talk) 18:35, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I reverted. Considering the number of editors involved in this discussion, I just wanted to give them an opportunity to weigh in before making the change. Although, I'm hopeful that this will be the end result. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 18:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Ramsquire- My preference would be to leave "intentionally" in, but I'm not insistent on that point. My arguement for leaving it in is this - From the polls I read, many of the questions are phrased like "Which news organizing applies the most spin to its programming?". It seems to me that if someone answers that question with "FNC" (as a majority of journalists did) it means that they believe FNC does not just have a biased POV but also INTENTIONALLY adapts its programming to push a particular POV. In other words, I think there is an important differentiation between someone who is reporting from a particular viewpoint and between someone who is trying to push a viewpoint on other people (which I think is what FNC is ultimately accused of doing). That is what I wanted to get across with "intentionally", though perhaps I'm trying to fit too much in a word. Anyway, even without "intentionally" I think that "Many observers of the channel say Fox News biases its promgramming to promote conservative political positions. Fox News Channel publicly denies any bias in the channel's reporting and claims to only give room to both sides." beats what we currently have...... NickCT (talk) 22:11, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Using a poll in the fashion you suggest to state FNC does anything intentionally would be a form of original research. Such synthesis of sources is expressly prohibited. You need a source to explicitly make that claim. As for the new proposal, speaking for myself only, I guess I could live with it... somewhat ;). Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 00:07, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I suggest we stick with "some". "Many" has some problems as it is somewhat of a WP:WEASEL word, "some" is also a weasel word, but has less of a quantifiable definition. "Many" also implies some large unquantifiable number. "Some" on the other hand does not have a specific quantifier, it could be large or it could be small. Since there is not quantifiable number of people that have reported this position within the relm of reliable sources it is not possible to back up the "large" amount. The only existing source for a possible "many" is the State of the Media reports which is specifically tied to journalists. The problem being there that journalist self-identify as liberal by about a 4 to 1 margin against those that self-identify as conservative. Arzel (talk) 02:47, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Arzel, I appreciate what you are trying to do, but the problem with the article as it is written now is that the word "some" is used. "Some" fails to capture the fact that this is a mainstream opinion. If you could come up with a word that was a little less minamalizing than "some" I'd support it.
On your point about journalists, as I've said a number of times, we are saying people believe FNC is a conservative media outlet. This means FNC is conservative IN RELATION to other media outlets. It therefore would seem appropriate that we represent the views of journalists in the article, as journalists can probably be said to have an expert understanding of the news media. NickCT (talk) 14:55, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Who says that this is the mainstream opinion? Any word that you use to make some objective determination about how people feel is going to be a weasel word and thus in violation of NPOV. If you want to use the only research that makes the relational comparison (FNC is conservative compared to other MSM networks) then you will also have to accept the fact that FNC is more balanced that the other MSM networks as well. The statement already includes (by proxy) the statement of journalists, in that some critics feel FNC supports a conservative point of view. If we want to add specifically that some journalists feel FNC supports a conservative point of view go right ahead. Arzel (talk) 15:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

A Ramussen Report poll in 04 found that Fox News was second to CBS as the most politicly biased network in the public view. This was in the shadow of Dan Rather's memogate scandal which probably skewed things a little for CBS. Anyway, I think this poll demonstrates that Fox News being biased is a widely held mainstream opinion among the general public.
Regardless, I still think the opinion of journalists trumps the opinion of the public at large, and journalists overwhelming cite FNC for bias. Imagine if you wanted to know whether a labotomy is an effective medical procedure. You would consult a doctor, not the general public. Similarly if we want to know whether FNC is biased, we should give deference to people in the media industry (i.e. journalists).
Regardless of this, I think we have reached a general consensus that the statement needs to be more forceful. My vote is still for: "Many observers of the channel say Fox News intentionally biases its promgramming to promote conservative political positions. Fox News Channel publicly denies any bias in the channel's reporting and claims to only give room to both sides." (perhaps with the exclusion of the word "intentionally"). I am strongly against obfuscating the wording by changing "many" with "some". Excluding Soxwon and Arzel, does anyone have serious issue with this wording?NickCT (talk) 18:52, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

A study of the 2008 election showed that FNC had the most balanced reporting of the election of all mainstream media news sources. Arzel (talk) 00:11, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Nope, that was spot on. Well said, although while the metaphor was cute, this is much easier to comprehend (than a lobotomy) and thus a "doctor" isn't really needed in this scenario. Everyone knows FNC is strongly biased, not just a little but a lot, and even bill oreilly admitted this. Therefore, "many observers.." makes sense. Tdinatale (talk) 19:38, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

BOR did NOT admit that FNC is strongly biased. Please don't make stuff up. Arzel (talk) 00:11, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I have a couple problems with NickCT's proposed wording. It's awkward sounding and it suggests a a non-neutral point of view. It sounds as if Wikipedia editors are scolding Fox for being a naughty boy. I would avoid both "intentionally" and "biases" (an awkward verb, anyway). I still like my own formulation and think that it should be acceptable to most editors in this discussion: Many observers say that the Fox News Channel promotes conservative political positions. Badmintonhist (talk) 19:56, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I concur, that does look better. Tdinatale (talk) 20:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I support both Badmintonhist's version and reasoning re: the awkward verb use. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 20:32, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Badmintonhist- To a certain extent I agree. My worry though is that "promotes conservative political positions" is ambiguous. That could mean they have bake sales for the GOP or something. How about "Many observers say that the Fox News Channel promotes conservative political positions through/with biased programming/news coverage"? NickCT (talk) 20:32, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:LEAD only requires that we give a brief overview of the controversy,i.e. the what. Badmingtonhist's version does this. To get into the how leads to undue weight concerns since it is elevating one method over others, as well as implying that this is the nuts and bolts of the controversy. I understand that your opinion is that bias coverage of events is the germane controversy. However, there have been no reliable sources presented explicitly making this point. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 22:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

If ambiguity is your worry, Nick, then we could make it: Many observers say that the Fox News Channel's programs (or programming) promote(s) conservative political positions. Badmintonhist (talk) 22:54, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I must reiterate that "Many" is a WP:WEASEL word and presents a NPOV violation. Arzel (talk) 00:11, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Badmintonhist- I can accept "Many observers say that the Fox News Channel's programming promotes conservative political positions". I still really think that "intentionally promotes" or "seeks to promote" should be used. The reason is that, if I make a cop & robbers show that has a "tough judge" character in it, someone might say that my show promotes conservative political positions because it is constantly displaying tough-on-crime story lines. While that might true, it might not necessarily have been my intent in making the show to promote conservative political positions. I don't think the "many" we are refering to in this rewrite are saying "Fox news programming promotes a conservative agenda simply because they chanced to hire a bunch of conservative commentators". Instead, I think the "many" are saying that Fox News designs (i.e. with intent) its programming to advance a particular platform. The latter opinion isn't really represented by simply saying "FNC's programming promotes conservative political positions". Does this make sense?
In conclusion I call for "Many observers say that the Fox News Channel's programming seeks to promote conservative political positions. Fox News Channel publicly denies any bias in the channel's reporting and claims to only give room to both sides".
Arzel- Did you ignore the polls I posted? Suggest something less weasely than "some" and I might listen.NickCT (talk) 02:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Less "weasely" then "some"? What you suggest is more "weasely". I am aware of the poll you cite. Are you aware of this, which shows that FNC gave almost equal coverage to both McCain and Obama in terms of positive, neutral, and negative stories during the 2008 election? (Pos/Neutral/Neg FNC - McCain 22/38/40, Obama 25/35/40) (MSNBC - McCain 10/17/73, Obama 43/43/14) (CNN - McCain 13/26/61, Obama 36/25/39) Now you tell me who was biased during the presidential election. Arzel (talk) 03:14, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Hey Arzel. "Some" is weasely because it doesn't suggest a mainstream majority position. "Many" does, and therefore I think it's less weasely. To your point on presidential coverage; yes! I did see that poll, and I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it were true. But I really think this is the exception that proves the rule. I think Fox made a conscience effort during McCain/Obama campaign to be "fair & balanced" because 1) it was a very hot button political issue which would place FNC under the most scrutiny, and 2) I don't think the GOP was really into McCain that much.NickCT (talk) 13:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Hey Nick, read up on WP:WEASEL. Also, I love your "yeah, but Fox was only fair because people were watching them...." logic regarding FNC during the election. Why then was every other network so biased against McCain? Apparently the MSM didn't feel any need at all to appear unbiased. Why do you refuse to accept any research that doesn't prescribe to your point of view? Arzel (talk) 14:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Not to mention studies done before the 2008 Elections that have shown less bias by Fox than by other media outlets. Bernard Goldburg cites several of them in his various books. Oh, and he worked for CBS. Bytebear (talk) 15:21, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

To NickCT: Reread Ramsquire's last point. The reliable sources on which we are basing the statement don't say whether Fox is being intentional or deliberate in it's conservatism. Putting our spin on the information gleaned from those sources would amount to WP: Synthesis, a branch of WP:Original Research. I usually try to avoid Wikipedia jargon, but your "intentional" proposal falls pretty clearly into those categories. Badmintonhist (talk) 05:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Many isnt' a weasel word when everyone knows it's true, you don't need a reliable source for that, it's common knowledge. We don't have to play the whole "well they say they're not biased, so they must not be biased" game... it's pretty obvious, I mean come on. In the south all they ever air is Fox news. By comparison, "some" looks like a weasel word because it looks like they might have a bias or they might not have a bias, and there's no arguing that they are not "fair" and "balanced." Tdinatale (talk) 11:51, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Wow, I didn't think it was possible to defend a weasel word by using several weasel words, (everyone knows, common knowledge, pretty obvious, all they ever air, there's no arguing). Do you have an argument that doesn't revolve completely around argumentum ad populum . Arzel (talk) 14:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

To Arzel- unfortunately, with reliable sources pointing in us in several directions as to how pervasive this perception of bias is, we have to use a weasel word. I prefer "many" over "some" because it encompasses anything from a super majority to simple plurality. In common language "some" is usually meant to denote a minority or a dissenting opinion (which may or may not be mainstream), while "few" denotes a fringe, and "most" implies a majority. The reliable sources seem indicate that the perception of bias is mainstream whether or not it is accurate.

To Tdinatale and NickCT-- we edit based on what we can verify through reliable sources, not on what we know or think to be true. I respectfully ask you to stop advocating for original research, and to only refer to what the sources explicitly claim. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 16:48, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Ramsquire, I must respectfully disagree. While "Some" (read: who knows how many) people think that "Some" means a few, the true definition of "Some" is an undeterminate number. That some people don't realize this doesn't mean that we should write the section to accomodate those that are ill-informed. On the other hand, "Many" implies a Large number and puts a wiki-weight on what that number is. In my Webster's dictionary, one defintion of "Many" means the "Great Majority", and given the discussion of Tdinatale and NickCT that is certainly what they believe and think it should say. Arzel (talk) 17:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Arzel- Pick a word that acknowledges that FNC biasing the news is mainstream, majority held opinion an I will consider it. "Some" in my mind does not do that.
Ramsquire- My arguement is that there are number of people who believe Fox News intentionally biases (i.e. spins) the news to promote a conservative agenda. You think this is original research? I beg to differ. In fact, I think the logical conclusion of a poll saying "X number of people believe FNC is biased" is that X number of people believe FNC is intentionally biasing the news. Do you have have anything that suggests otherwise?
"Many observers say that the Fox News Channel's programming promotes conservative political positions" doesn't capture the probable POV of the "many observers" accurately. "Many observers say that the Fox News Channel's programming seeks to promote conservative political positions" does. I again call for the latter.NickCT (talk) 19:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know your demands. Arzel (talk) 19:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

His (NickCT's) point seems reasonable, logical, and correct to me... I say go for it. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

A while ago, I would have been shocked to see you advocating original research. Sadly not anymore. Whatever happened to presenting information in the same manner as the source does? I'd love to know when your change of heart occurred-- that editors could come to conclusions outside of sources simply because it was the logical next step. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 20:38, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

OK. One last time--please follow the link to WP:OR and read it please. We don't write what the source implies or suggests, or what we feel it is trying to say, or take information to its logical conclusion (the very definition of synthesis). We only summarize what it explicitly states. The source says a number of people believe FNC is biased... that is all we can write with THAT source. I don't need to come up with anything else because I am not going past what the sources state. You are, therefore you need to come up with a source that makes that specific claim. And even if you were to come up with one, the "intentional/non-intentional/delibrate/just using popular hosts to satisfy a niche market/ratings--i.e. the "how and why stuff-- is better suited to a discussion in the body of the article and not in the lead IMHO. FTR- Arzel, you are right in that some can denote a large unquantifiable number and would grammatically fit here. For example "Some" people in the world are Muslim is equally as accurate as "Many" people in the world are Muslim but in most texts you will see the latter formulation mainly due to the popular usage of some today. I think using that word here will just lead to constant complaints from editors that we are trying to present a mainstream view as simply a dissenting opinion. For practical reasons Many is better. My two cents on it. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 20:21, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I will concede your point. It is not my preferred choice of words, but if concensus is such (and it seems that it is) then I will accept "Many". Arzel (talk) 22:35, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

What would satisfy you, Ramsquire? Would a source that presents a majority of respondents belief of FNC's bias be sufficient? Are you arguing that you need a verbatim source that uses the words "a majority of people believe Fox News is biased"? It seems like this original research claim is more about gaming the system than it is following a rule -- the intent of WP:OR (and, in fact, the explicit purpose) is to deny original research and synthesis of thought; it is not a blunt instrument used to require a word-for-word regurgitation of source material. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

From your response it is clear you haven't actually read Nick's proposal or any of my previous edits. Specifically, "the seeks to" language in his last version. Taking a source that says "many people believe X does Y" to say "many people believe X's primary purpose or intent is to do Y" is a significant leap, and a lot more than summarizing the source(WHICH IS WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO DO!). As for your gaming crap...if you hadn't gotten the hint over the last few months, I don't give a rat's ass about your conspiracy theories. You're a dishonest dick, and everyone who has come across you long enough is wise to your lawyering and contorting of WP to fit your bias. Pity that I took so long to recognize this. Due to good faith, I guess other's play along. NOT ME!!! (I guess I'm going to get a tag on my talk page or report on ANI now.) :rolleyes: Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 21:13, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Ramsquire- Isn't there some wiki rule about not using phrases like "dishonest dick" and "gameing crap" :-) Anyway.... look, I appreciate your point. The thing is though, I think FNC intentionly biases news, you think FNC intentionly biases news, and you and I think that the "many people" think that FNC biases news. Just because the polls we're looking at asks "Do you think FNC is biased" instead of "Do you think FNC intentionly biases news" shouldn't prevent the language I'm trying to include. Frankly, the proposed wording lends much more credence to FNC's rebuttal and the observer's claim. Anyway, I'm going to do more research to see if I can back my "intent" language. Until then, I grudgingly accept the new language ("FNC programming promotes conservative...") as it stands solely because it's more accurate than that which currently exists.
Arzel, you never address peoples' points. If you don't bother listening to others, don't expect to be listened to...... NickCT (talk) 00:28, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you're right in a sense. I'm afraid, you just witnessed a long slow building process that just erupted there. Just keep in mind that "Dick" is in reference to an meta essay about editor conduct. Specifically certain editing behaviors to avoid engaging in so as to avoid being labelled as such. (Ironically one of the items there was that referring to people as such, often makes you one, so I concede the point on those grounds.) It was not a direct comment about how he lives his life outside this place or him personally. Two "gaming" was in response to his accusation. But back on point, and why I came here, Arzel's has conceded to Badmingtonhist's version (well at least the "many" clause), so barring any further stated dissent, I guess it could be changed to say "Many observers say...programming promotes...". As you've seemed to notice, I have no problem evaluating whether to add the deliberate/intent language once I see some RS's on it. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 00:43, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Ramsquire, your petulant outburst is unfortunate but not surprising, but is immaterial to the discussion here. I find that your obsession with the semantics of argument to be of little substance -- a reading of most of the sources we've historically used (with which I'm quite familiar, obviously) leaves little doubt that the belief of the authors (as well as the people who's responses are upon which they're based) intended for bias to encompass intentional bias. Your assertion that it's ambiguous, and that any one of these could have possibly meant that Fox News accidentally exhibits bias is downright laughable -- their programming is exclusively conservative (Hanity, Beck, and O'Reilly (oh my!), the organization is run by a former Republican party operative, and they're under constant criticism for biased coverage. The channel sells a brand to a particular crowd, and I find it absolutely unbelievable that you contend that anyone could have interpreted the sources to have meant unintentional bias. In almost every case bias is intentional, and for a lot of people (self included) the word's default meaning implies intent (otherwise it's qualified as unintentional). I just don't believe the intent of the WP:OR policy was to exclude obvious and generally agreed-upon facts due to semantics. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 01:13, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I haven't the slightest doubt that if some editor wanted to throw in words such as "deliberately" or "intentionally" regarding MSNBC's move to the left Blax would be leading the fight against it. He's led similar contradictory crusades in the past depending on whose ox is being gored. Ramsquire and I have seen it all before. That tendency, combined with Blax's pedantic tone gets pretty hard to take. As to the substance of the issue at hand I haven't the slightest doubt that Fox's conservatism is "intentional", but then most political actions are, so throwing in such language is gratuitous. It's adding an extra, not directly found in the sources, as an editor's emphasis. Again, kind of like Wikipedia is going out of its way to adopt a scolding tone. It is unencyclopedic. Badmintonhist (talk) 01:37, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Need I point out the logical fallacy of equating FNC and MSNBC for the purposes of content decisions on Wikipedia? //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 02:31, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

No, I only brought up MSNBC to illustrate your partisanship, Blax. A partisanship very, very clear to those who know your editing history. My main point, pertaining strictly to the article at hand, is that language about intentionality is gratuitous and unencyclopedic. Badmintonhist (talk) 02:50, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Gentlemen, gentlemen! Please... let us maintain decorum. Remember that the goal of the righteous Wikipedian is to share the light of knowledge. That said, I believe we have reached general consensus on "Many observers say that the Fox News Channel's programming promotes conservative political positions. Fox News Channel publicly denies any bias in the channel's reporting and claims to only give room to both sides". I suggest we change immediately, and continue the "intent" debate later (hopefully in a more civil tone).
Badmintonhist- I disagree with what you say about "intentionality is gratuitous". As I pointed out earliear, a person or entity can "promote a conservative political position" unintentionally. For instance, if I am pro-life I might have a negative view of an Ob/Gyn who performs abortions. I might relate that biased POV to you without the express intent of affecting your opinion. On the other hand, if I actively considered how denigrate and defame the Ob/Gyn through phrasing (i.e. weasel words) and exageration, I am essentially "spinning" my description of the Ob/Gyn. In other words, a biased story can arrive "passively" from a biased person (i.e. someone with a particular POV trying to give an honest account of what they saw) or "actively" (i.e. someone exagerating and "spinning" the account to affect your opinion). I believe the mainstream opinion is that Fox does the latter, and I don't feel the new wording really acknowledges this. NickCT (talk) 03:59, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll just let Blaxthos continue to argue against points that no one has made(his typical M.O.- stick around and you'll see more of it). While he does that I'll be happy to see the lead changed to what it seems everyone agreed on so far. And as I have said about four times now, I'd be willing to evaluate the intentional stuff at a later time. Just so everyone can get this: I-am-not-against-it-going-in. I-am-against-using-the-current-sourcing-as-veriication.Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 04:18, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Talk about that mean old Blaxthos all you want; it certainly doesn't move anything forward, and I'm not here to make friends or please the politically motivated. If I misunderstood and thusly misrepresented your position as "never-not-going-in", I apologize. I still think that it's fighting over a point that is implicitly obvious within the current sourcing, but it's refreshing to understand the nuance of your position as "not never". With regards to the rest -- the repeated attempts by the righties to drag MSNBC discussions here and the FNC discussions there is complete bullshit, and I'm oft decried by those editors (and others) for not letting them run hog-wild with "FNC is the most balanced network" and other ridiculous claims. If that pisses them off, fine; if that occasionally irritates reasonable editors, that's fine too. I choose to edit political articles, and I don't oft get worked up when loons screech foul when they don't get their way. For the record, please to note that I've stayed mostly out of this discussion, and only tend to wade in when people make false comparisons, espouse fringy or unbalanced viewpoints, or try to misapply policy; and I am fine with the new proposal given that the main crux of NickCT's point continue to be (productively) discussed. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 05:51, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok... Consensus reached. I'm going to try to change the article this evening. If someone gets there before I do, that's fine.
Blax- I appreciate your campaign. Don't let Ramsquire get you down. He is just being a stickler for the rules, and on occassion I think being a stickler clashes with doing what is obviously right. I also agree with your critism of "righties". It has always seemed to me that righties more so than lefties will look fact in the eye and deny it outright when it doesn't conform to their ideology. I think it was Steven Colbert who put it nicely with his "Reality has a liberal bias" sentiment.
I would however like you to spell out what you mean by "false dicotomy". I take it to mean that someone makes the arguement that if X is true than Z must be true too, and if Y is true than Z must be true. Furthermore, X & Y are the only options so therefore Z must be true. When you complain about referring to MSN are you saying that MSN and Fox shouldn't be considered polar opposites?NickCT (talk) 13:35, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Weighing in with a 3O: the current wording of the article reads as though accusations of intentional bias are a fringe opinion. There does seem to be consensus here that it's not a fringe opinion. The lead needs to be changed to reflect this consensus. "Many" instead of "some" is a positive step in that direction.

As a more general point, this article has been neutered with unencyclopedic irrelevancies and spin to water down and distract from simple facts. The White House provided FNC with talking points; I can't see any contention at all of that point. The fact that we don't know which commentators got the talking points, and content-free non-denials that interview responses could have been clearer, should not be set up as counterweights to this notable fact. Rvcx (talk) 13:30, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed and agreed RVCX. Ramsquire is being a bit of kill joy here demanding that we find references explicity stating that the belief "Fox spins the news" is a majority opinion before we strengthen the language.NickCT (talk) 13:39, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

These arguments have struck me as based on a misunderstanding of WP:NOR. The guidelines on WP:Fringe_theories#Notability_versus_acceptance seem fairly clear that determining notability and weighing the reliable sources relating to different theories is entirely within scope and not original research. If it weren't then we could only really cite other encyclopedic sources. If this continues to be a source of disagreement over WP policy then I suggest the matter be raised at WP:FTN or WP:ORN for clarification. Rvcx (talk) 14:18, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

A few points before I go away for a while. (A planned life event, and nothing to do with what's happened here). One...possibly the most frustrating thing on this project is how many people are willing to attribute positions to people who have never made them. I understand that reading through discussions like this can be difficult and we can miss things or misread it. But four times now, I've read my position, and quite frankly... it just isn't mine. I never said the sources were ambiguous, I never called for regurgitation or plagiarism of the sources, and I never said Fox's bias is accidental or even speculated on where it comes from. I never said that we need a source for Fox spins the news (that phrase is the same as promoting conservative positions in my eyes, and I've beeb a leading proponent of that language in all the discussions and RfC's here). As a side comment, if one could find a RS detailing the Moody memos, I think that may be a good start on the intentional stuff, but I guess someone else could find sources saying that any bias comes from the host they hired and isn't an institutional direction thing. I'd actually like to read some discussion of that in the body of the article. Two... if I ask for sources, it's not an obstructionist ploy, or being a stickler for rules. It's often based on the contentiousness on the article, I'm a vet here, and I know that if we don't cross every T and dot every I in a few days the article will erupt again. What's wrong with taking the time to give the strongest presentation now, rather than half-assing it, and paying the price at a later date. It's for practical considerations, and thus why I am shocked by the cavalier attitudes toward the policy by some. Third, although I believe I am right with my interpretation of WP:OR here, it is only my opinion. If one wanted to RfC it, or take it to a noticeboard for clarification, I'd have no problem with that. And if community consensus is against me---I'd live with it. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 16:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Badmintonhist changed the lead to eliminate some wording about Fox New's "giving room to both sides". He says he doesn't "recall the part [he] deleted as being part of any "concensus".)". Badmintonhist, that wording was proposed by Ramsquire and repeated 6 times by me as being the "new wording" (see Ramquire talk 22:48, 28 August 2009, and my talks 13:42,16:49,22:11 August 2009, and 18:52, 1 September 2009, 02:31, 2 September 2009, 03:59, 3 September 2009). I think this is the "consensus" version as no one objected to that wording. I'm actually ok with your change though, but I'm pretty sure it the "giving room" version was the consensus...... NickCT (talk) 00:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Yay it's changed! good job to all who engaged in this discussion! Tdinatale (talk)

It seems the only reason to put the many observers see Fox as promoting a conservative view is a classic POV unless every other network entry is going to have the observor is promoting a liberal view. Why not just remove it?

Anon: The "many observers" in this sentence refers to countless polls of journalists and the public at large that point to a general belief that a large part of Fox News is promotion of conservative view points. It reflects not editor's POV but the general public's and informed observer's POV. If you can find similar sentiment toward some other network, than that other network's entry ought to have a mention of it. NickCT (talk) 13:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Would you give an example of those polls and I mean one that comes from a reputable source? I dont think Media Matters (a George Sorus Funded) or FAIR can be considered valid. Nor journalists who work for competing media to Fox. Otherwise we are taking an oppinion source. I googled proof of bias and every entry on the first three pages came from oppinion blogs.Tannim1 (talk) 11:15, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

FAQ

Should the FAQ remain the same except change the "Some" to "Many" and keep the same reasoning? TIA --Tom (talk) 17:52, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd say go with many based on the points raised in the above discussion. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 18:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

 Done - Good catch, Tom... I'd forgotten about it. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:20, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

The 2009 White House criticism of Fox News

Enough, this conversation isn't going anywhere
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I love the fact that the section is titled "THE" 2009 Criticism of Fox News. As if there is anticipation of there being a section titles "THE" 2010 Critism of Fox News. That is so classic wikipedia. I have to hand to you guys, you really outdid yourselves this time. Bravo Bravo Bravo. As if thats not enough, lets create a whole article with the same title, 2009 White House criticism of Fox News and while we're at it, lets go ahead and create one for 2010 White House Criticism of Fox News right now, since we all know there will be one soon enough. Gosh, we only have two months left, lets not miss that boat. Heck, if we are really good, we can get it to WP:GA by Christmas. Whoopie, This is great, I love bashing Fox News. I can't wait until 2012, so we can bash whatever candidate attempts to run against the democrats. For those of you with no funny bone, this was meant as sarcasm, but did I really have to say it, Um..........YA I guess I did.--Jojhutton (talk) 00:52, 26 October 2009 (UTC) The section title was changed to represent the main article, not that I agree with the name choice. Whatever the title is, should probably remain mostly consistant with the main article which was created. Arzel (talk) 01:56, 26 October 2009 (UTC) FYI the original title was Some White house representatives feel Fox News is “not a news organization.” Which kinda felt like Some people think that Bud Light is less filling.  :) Arzel (talk) 01:59, 26 October 2009 (UTC) Come on, lets say what we really think. The title should be Criticism of the evil republican backed not really a news network, by the lovely bunny slipper wearing white house whose poop don't stink. That would be more in line with how things have gone so far for this adminstration on wikipedia. :)--Jojhutton (talk) 02:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC) Please use this page to make constructive comments. The Four Deuces (talk) 03:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC) Thank you for the reminder. What would we ever do without the level headed users who remind us of our faults.--Jojhutton (talk) 16:23, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Conservative positions and Republican Party

Though the introduction previously read "Many observers say that Fox News Channel's programming promotes conservative political positions," the current introduction citation from USA Today specifically says, "Listen to me, Fox is not conservative. They're an extension of the Republican Party." Combined with comments from the Obama administration describing Fox as "a wing of the Republican Party" or as "part of the Republican Party," it is not an accurate reflection of the sources to only use "conservative." (I am here because User:Threeafterthree reverted this clarification with the edit summary "rv trolling.") IndyObserver (talk) 01:00, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I would welcome discussion from Threeafterthree and Soxwon rather than blind reverts without edit summaries. The article's text cannot be allowed to so blatantly contradict its own citations. IndyObserver (talk) 06:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I try not to feed trolls, sorry. --Tom (talk) 13:49, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Per WP:LEAD- The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article...[a]ccordingly, editors should avoid lengthy paragraphs and over-specific descriptions, especially if they are not central to the article as a whole [emphasis added]. I do think discussion of the WH communications director mention of Fox could go in the article but it is the type of detail that belongs in the relevant body of the article and not the lead, since it fits under what is already written. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 17:08, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

This is about Wikipedia:Verifiability, not simply the Manual of Style. You simply cannot have a citation to a source which says, and I quote, "Fox is not conservative" for an introduction that says "observers say Fox is conservative." It is a misrepresentation of the sources in violation of one of Wikipedia's core policies, which supersedes MOS concerns, and can be corrected by four simple words (hardly an breach of brevity). IndyObserver (talk) 20:27, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

To your verification argument, this is directly from the source you highlighted:

• Fox News, its critics say, is a cheering squad for Republicans and the Bush administration.
• A documentary released this summer, Outfoxed, shows former Fox staffers accusing their old bosses of ordering them to slant the news in favor of conservatives. And Tuesday outside Fox News' studios in Manhattan, protesters held a "Shut Up!" rally to express their anger at what they see as the network's conservative bias.
• While the hosts who are paid to give their opinions make no attempts to hide their politics, the reporters and anchors on the news programs say they're traditional journalists who don't buy into attempts to spin the news

This source supports everything that's in the lead, namely, FNC is criticized for its bias and that FNC denies it. It appears you want to add more details, which to me, per MOS should go in the body. I honestly don't see where your interpretation of the article comes from. Also, at no point does the lead say or even attempt to say FNC is conservative. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 21:07, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Please see the paragraph from the USA Today source currently used in the intro:

"A lion of the Democrats' liberal wing, Rep. Charles Rangel of New York, was on the Hannity & Colmes show Tuesday. Afterward, he made no effort to hide his feelings. 'I go on Fox because a lot of Democrats won't,' Rangel said. 'Listen to me, Fox is not conservative. They're an extension of the Republican Party. Do they give me a fair shot when I'm on? Yes, because they need me. I'm red meat for their listeners.'"

An article containing such a clearly-worded observation as "Fox is not conservative" cannot be cited in support of an introduction which characterizes observers as alleging conservative bias. The most notable bias alleged is toward the Republican Party, not conservative ideology. IndyObserver (talk) 21:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

To address your worry over details: The current summary is inadequate in doing what WP:LEAD prescribes, which is "most important points covered in an article." The former summary was not a fair portrayal of the most important points. A summary of the sources would indicate that (A) even among liberals, Fox is not so much alleged to promote conservative ideology, but Republican Party politics and (B) Fox does not simply "deny bias" as it is currently characterized as doing, rather it maintains a distinction between its news reporting and editorial programming (they have most recently compared themselves to a newspaper with an editorial section). I don't want to add a ton of extra words to the intro, but there is a distinction between what the old intro described and what its citations describe.

(And not to be a bean counter, but the Fox News article in its current revision would still have the shortest intro of the three major American cable news outlets.) IndyObserver (talk) 21:54, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Still awaiting a response. Because of how blatantly the USA Today source is being misrepresented, I won't be dropping this even if ignored. Why does no one have a response to the fact that the source currently used in the intro says, and I again quote, "Fox is not conservative. They're an extension of the Republican Party." IndyObserver (talk) 17:20, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to keep you waiting, but I've been busy. Yes, USA Today says GOP, but the others says conservative. My question is why does USA Today get preeminence over the other five? If I were to remove USA Today, would that satisfy your objection? Please note that you may have to wait some time before I can respond to you again-- although I will try. I hope someone who sees it like I do, takes the opportunity to continue this further in the interim.Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 17:55, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

From where do you get the idea of preeminence, have I deleted "conservative" from the article? Of course not, because there are citations which say so. It doesn't get preeminence, it gets equal mention as allegation that is made both frequently (including from the White House) and independently (in the USA Today source used, mutually exclusive) of the other. And it's not just USA Today from 2004 that says Republican; there's the New York Times and Fox News sources from this year. The allegation from these sources is not bias toward conservative ideology, but promotion of the Republican Party specifically. IndyObserver (talk) 18:11, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, now I understand your point. I was thinking you were saying it was mis-attribution to say conservative when USA Today says GOP. Now I see you're saying that some sources say both, so the into should say both. My mistake. As there is no serious objection that FNC has been criticized for having a conservative bias, and there is only one mainstream party with conservatives in the U.S., I personally think it's redundant but I don't have any objection. It's reliably sourced that the criticism exists. When I made my deletion, there were quotes from Ms. Dunn in the lead, and I objected to that. I didn't see your narrower edit. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 19:35, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Quotes? I never included any quotes, I always only added four words to the sentence ("or the Republican Party"). As for your concern over redundancy and the United States having only one conservative party, I would strongly disagree and point you to the conservative Blue Dog Democrats who are strong in numbers and influence. IndyObserver (talk) 22:57, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd agree with Ramsquire, conservatism in general is associated with the Republican party and I would suggest moving the quote to the body rather than sticking it in the lead. Soxwon (talk) 23:47, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Ramsquire didn't say that, Soxwon -- he said he has no objection, and that it's clearly sourced. You seem to be missing the whole point -- the GOP and "conservatism" are two distinct issues and are directly treated as such in the source material. Please don't make unilateral reversions, as it seems you misunderstand the issue. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 04:24, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Why do people keep bringing up quotes here in my talk page thread? There are no quotes in the lede, nor have I ever inserted any quotes into it. Soxwon, your ideas about conservatism in American politics simply do not reflect reality. There are 52 self-identified conservatives sitting in the current Democratic congressional Congress, and a decent block of them in the Senate as well. Even were that not the case, one of our current sources says specifically, "Fox is not conservative. They're an extension of the Republican Party" and more current sources address cooperation with the Republican Party, not ideological bias. They're two very distinct things, and you're now simply stonewalling against talk consensus. IndyObserver (talk) 16:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

To make matters worse, TFD is now reverting based on his confusion of this issue with a different proposal. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 17:24, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Just to clear things up on my end. I was reacting and objecting to this change. I thought the anon was IndyObserver. As I said before, I'm fine with IndyObserver's addition. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 19:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Gawd Soooo much typing about all this. I shouldn't even add to this, but- One concern I have about the "Outside " references in the main article - aren't all the outside links just newscorp sites? None link to anything pertaining to the issues being parsed here? In other words, Isn't that like trying to describe Rupert Murdochs head by referring to what his elbow thinks? (Shouldnt there be a link to "Media-Matters" Or some of the other studies that have been done?)God this entry is SO tortured & twisty because Newscorps & Ailes have Mastered Spin based on DENYING intent. THEY are the radical edge, so they gain new territory by just saying "No we're not- We are the Middle." Their arguments don't stand up to empirical examination so they just Say- "Our arguments are strong- so shut up" Their news people will tell a news event & then add "You know what I think..." at the top - Something I RARELY heard in serious broadcasts in the past, without it being shunted aside at the end of broadcasts with a clear C.G. under it stating "Editorial" or "Opinion Piece" or some such. But the major innovation at "Faux" (Which I do watch roughly 3 to 4 times a month)is, I REGULARLY hear anchors asking field reporters "...What do You think?" or telling the field person "Oh well you know what I think..." PUHLEEZ... I watch real news to see something that has happened. If I want to know what someone THINKS- I'll ask my aunt Fanny. With fox, their conclusions come out of the box already minted. Rangel is just hungry for Face time so he goes there... Big whoop. By doing that he just feeds their paltry evidence that they have no agenda. MEANWHILE, there IS no fairness doctrine for broadcast, (Which would mean actual verifiable standards) since the De-regulations of the 1980's fcc, and so fox actually DOESN'T have to be "fair & Balanced"! They really Don't. They actually have the Right to be as biased as they want! But its so much more fun to "Claim " they are fair- then watch the victims of distorted language wrestle in the blood & mud. Sad really... So sad. I'm just sayin' . 71.6.81.62 (talk) 03:05, 29 October 2009 (UTC)--mbd--71.6.81.62 (talk) 03:05, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Obama Administration criticism of FOX

We seem to have a section devoted to the Scot McClelland accusations of the Bush Whitehouse, but nothing about the Obama adminsitrations attempt to discredit Fox as a news organization. This has been widely covered by many major outlets but there is no reference to it here? The artical seems quite biased agauinst Fox in its current form 206.108.31.36 (talk) 18:07, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Anon. You seem to contradict yourself here. You point out that the article doesn't talk about the Obama administration discrediting Fox, then say that the article is biased against Fox? It's seems to me that including information about how Fox News had been discreditted would create a negative impression of the channel.NickCT (talk) 20:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I added it, but I had to correct the date, move it to controversies, then it was rewritten. We may still need to do more to this recent addition.--ChubsterII (talk) 23:50, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I rewrote most of it to follow known timeline and more match the existing article. Arzel (talk) 01:35, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

It's all good encyclopedic information, we just have to make sure it's presented in an informative manner that doesn't favor one side or the other.--ChubsterII (talk) 02:16, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I at first removed part of this as the link did not have any support to what was said, i think it was updated as there was info that was false in the news link. I looked into it and found the information has been updated and posted an update with supporting links. The language I used was pretty much copy and paste with direct quotes as to make sure there was no Bias. The story seems to have grown since it was posted as well so i thought a update was better then just removing it without looking into. --Marlin1975 (talk) 10:28, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

More intro cleanup

Regarding this sentence:

Fox News Channel denies any bias in the channel's reporting, maintaining a distinction between its news coverage and editorial programming.

Many reliable sources have now challenged the "porous" line between such a distinction. I recommend making the following change:

Fox News Channel denies any bias in the channel's reporting by asserting a distinction between its news coverage and editorial programming, though critics maintain that such a distinction is often blurred, and have noted news content seems to take cues from the Republican Party.

This is clearly cited (with examples) by the NPR story, and additional sources alleging this sort of behavior are copious (though I recommend avoiding overlinking). Thoughts? //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 04:34, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

The sources provided do not support the text. You really have to obtain reliable sources to support your comments, and not use statements like "Fox News Channel denies" to insinuate that they really do something else. The Four Deuces (talk) 04:45, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, the "denies" text is ancient and long agreed upon during at least 3 RFC's I can remember off the top of my head. Regarding your assertion that the source doesn't support such:

For example, last month's Fox's Glenn Beck last month described Cass Sunstein, a Harvard law professor and head of the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, as "a man that believes that you should not be able to remove rats from your home if it causes them any pain." ... Republicans were making related claims, and the next hour, Fox News aired a story by James Rosen in which the reporter told viewers: "Rats could attack us in the sewer and court systems if all of Cass Sunstein's writings became law."

Republican editorial show makes a claim, GOP parrots said claim, and an hour later FNC is airing a "reportstory" with the same quote. Not sure how you missed that... //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 05:22, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Is there a reliable source that has covered that timeline? user:J aka justen (talk) 05:24, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

It's clearly in the source provided, should you bother to look. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 05:30, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Should you guys want some additional quotes from same source directly on this topic:

(John Harwood of The New York Times and CNBC)... In newspapers, Harwood says, the hard news divisions determine the agenda — not the editorial page. "But in cable television, the editorial page drives the train... And in Fox, you've got a network that is self-consciously set out to correct what it sees as the leftward bias of the rest of the media."

Hope this helps. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 05:35, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I did bother to look, and in the transcript, it doesn't indicate a direct causation (rather, the events are intertwined), but that's not really the point. There's no doubt in my mind that Fox News is much more sympathetic to concerns that align more with Republicans. But, as I and others have pointed out above, you need more than a single news piece to source this for the lede. user:J aka justen (talk) 05:41, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

The entire point of that part of the transcript directly validates my point; I really don't see how you can argue that it could or does mean anything else. Regarding sourcing, are you alleging that it isn't sourced elsewhere? Come on, J, that's being a little absurd. The White House has made the point, and I can point to all sorts of other sources, from The New York Times to the USA Today source already in the intro -- see the discussion above. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 06:21, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

It isn't absurd to insist on reliable sourcing. One of the articles you linked to doesn't even mention the word "Republican." The other focusses on steps Fox had supposedly taken to counter critics of its neutrality. Both, however, are newswire pieces, and using them to further this most recent change is synthesis, plain and simple. There are reliable sources that have taken a much deeper look at Fox News than can be had in a single news article, and those sorts of sources should really be the ones used to source any proposed changes to the lede. user:J aka justen (talk) 06:35, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Both additional articles deal with criticism of Fox News' blurring of the editorial and news content, and the NPR source is directly on point. I simply disagree with your assertions, characterization, and logic; hopefully additional viewpoints can help. I'm malleable as to the exact language used, and my suggestion is merely a starting point -- feel free to make suggested improvements. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 07:06, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

The Fox News website, which is a reliable source, says that they are "fair and balanced". The Four Deuces (talk) 16:19, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Why yes, yes it does. We already explicitly note their self description throughout the intro, infobox, and article; that's not really new, germane info that speaks to the issues I've brought up. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 17:22, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Well if reliable sources indicate they are "fair and balanced", they cannot be biased. The Four Deuces (talk) 18:03, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I hope you're joking. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:26, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

The Obama administration does not equal many critics thinking that FNC is by extension a branch of the GOP. THe vast majority of articles are focusing on the fact that the Obama administration is attacking FNC. The statement that the Obama administration is using is that FNC is an arm of the Republican party and it is being reported on as a result. This issue is completely seperate from the previous criticism of FNC and probably would best be served as a seperate issue. A possible start.

In October 2009 the Obama Administration went on the attack against FNC. (examples of attack, Dunn et al.) (FNC Response.) (Third part commentary.) Arzel (talk) 20:04, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

USA Today, The New York Times, NPR have all run stories about this association and mode of operation; there are doubtless many more. That you continually use subjective language like "attacks" and "whining" only help underscore the fact that you (Arzel) constantly try to paint FNC as the victim and the criticism as unjust, which is far beyond the scope here -- the mere existence of such copious criticism on these matters is enough to warrant mention. To be super duper clear: the justification that FNC repeatedly uses (distinction between news and editorial coverage) is frequently challenged; reliable sources have called this distinction into question, and at least one has reported an example of FNC news taking cues from the Republican Party, which ironically got the talking point from an FNC editorial show. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:26, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe, if the Obama administration would stop whining about FNC and stop attacking FNC then there wouldn't be any reliable sources saying that the Obama administration is a bunch of whiners and that attacking a news organization is not good policy then I wouldn't have such subjective language to use. Arzel (talk) 21:35, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Blaxthos, you need sources. This is Wikipedia, not Fox News. The Four Deuces (talk) 00:49, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

The both of you are unbelievable and have no crediblilty on which to stand at this point. Your lack of logic is airtight, as it were. The vehement rhetorical language, coupled with the willful ignoring of multiple sources is evidence that you're not operating in good faith, and I can only hope more objective editors will contribute to the discussion. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 04:07, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Again you must follow reliable sources guidelines. A lot No amount of weak sources do not strengthen statements and concluding that many sources support a view is synthesis. I have a reliable source that says Fox News is "fair and balanced". The Four Deuces (talk) 04:20, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

There is no "fairness doctrine" for commercial broadcasting anymore, it was de-regulated away in the 1980's- so actually fox is perfectly within their rights to be as biased as they wanna' be. And they are. :-) But they are also "Marketing " their ideology. It is just empirical fact that Ailes was a reactionary republican operative in the past. It's not being made up by anyone. It's just the way he is, he's probably nice to most people he encounters, but he is who he is. Now he runs a Major media outlet where the content can echo his belief systems. And it does. If anything he has moderated it down a little. (He used to work with Lee Atwater, the Dark Lord of extreme right mis-information. It's just a fact.) And he is extremely clever at what he does, part of which is, to DENY that there is an agenda. That's what makes it work. Look at all those in here who actually seem to think some sort of "Rule" for fairness applies to what they are doing. In fiction there are no requirements to be "Real" 71.6.81.62 (talk) 04:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)--mbd--71.6.81.62 (talk) 04:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not following the objections here. Is there a specific number of reliable sources that Blaxthos must come up with before the objections are dropped? If so, I'd suggest you give him the number so that he can meet it. But if the objection is undue weight, I'd point out that the topic is generally broached in the current lead, and could easily go into the body. With that being the case, I don't think his suggestion is off base. May I suggest:

• Fox News Channel denies any bias in the channel's reporting by asserting a distinction between its news coverage and editorial programming, however critics allege that increasingly that distinction is blurred.

The example discussed in the source could go in the body, or in the controversies article. My two cents. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 20:40, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I wrote above "A lot of weak sources do not strengthen statements". I will rephrase it as "No amount of weak sources strengthen statements". The Four Deuces (talk) 20:51, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I would like to second Ramsquire's proposed rewrite. Unless there is objection, I will put it in within 24hrs.NickCT (talk) 13:51, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. The FNC statement is already a response to the previous statement, that we should add a retort to the FNC response just leads to a back and forth POV warfest. Arzel (talk) 14:05, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok. Arzel objects to Ramsquire's language. Unless I hear more support for Ramsquire I will not change the lead to that wording. Personally, I dislike the "and points to a distinction between " language. It suggests that a distinction definitely exists, which of course is just Fox's claim. Can we change to "and claims there is a distinction between " or "and claims that conservative view points carried in its editorial programming do not carry over to its news coverage". Do I have support for these?

Whatever we change to, lets do it quickly. Somehow this lead has a tendency to return to more ambiguous and soft language regarding claims surround Fox New's political spin after every change. Strange.... NickCT (talk) 15:13, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

(outdent)No. Claims is weaselly and takes a position. Whatever fox is stating is just that, thier statement in reply and should be reported as such. --Tom (talk) 18:28, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok Tom. So given that the "points to" language is bad. How about "and (says|states that) there is a distinction between ".NickCT (talk) 18:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

That seems ok. What do others think? --Tom (talk) 20:09, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, any of those are fine. We could even use "maintains" again, because once the words "that there is" are placed between it and "a distinction", it tells the reader the particular meaning of the word "maintains" that is being used. I know that explanation is pretty awkward but is it clear? Badmintonhist (talk) 00:23, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Glad to see things are moving forward. I have one small suggestion... in Ramsquire's suggested version ("however critics allege that increasingly that distinction is blurred.") the "that" is doubled, and in either case it's a split infinitive. A better way to handle that predicate would be something like "however critics have [stated] that the line is increasingly blurred". //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:28, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Blax - We are scrapping Ramsquire's suggestion due to Arzel's objection (though I suspect Arzel would object to "1+1=2" if it made Fox News look bad). Badminton - Having a little trouble interpreting your suggestion. So far I think we have the following options - "and (says|states that|maintains that|argues that) there is a distinction between " Anyone want to nominate a winner? Personally, I'm for the "argues" option. This is because Fox's claim that there is a distinction is clearly a point of contention. I think most of us would accept, with the exclusion of Arzel, that there is little or no distinction. The word "argues" or "claims" would make that contention apparent. NickCT (talk) 13:14, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd caution against "scrapping" a suggestion from a respected issue based solely upon Arzel's objection (because, as you note, he objects to anything that is critical of FNC). Let's try to fix valid concerns with the suggestions (like the linguistic points raised by myself and Tom) instead of scrapping content entirely. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 13:38, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd would just be careful with all the "back and forth" as it were. Folks say fox is biased, fox says it isn't, but folks say it is...nah nah na nah na....I got the last word....Is the current version that far off? Anyways, stay tuned :) --Tom (talk) 13:43, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Blax - I hate to say this, but I agree slightly with Arzel. It seems as though if we start doing "point / counter-point / point" we risk having to inject all the accusations against Fox and all its denials into the lead. Best just keep it simple with one sentence detailing the accusation, and one detailing the denial. As I'm not getting concrete suggestions for rewordings I'm going to put in "and argues that there is a distinction between ". Objections? If you do object, please suggest what we can replace "points to" with.NickCT (talk) 15:58, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Two minor points- One (and this is admittedly extremely nit-picky. I really don't want to re-visit the centuries old argument re: use of split infinitives) but there is none here, since the S (critics) and V (allege) have no intervening adverb (e.g. "to boldly go") and more importantly, the infinitive is not used. ;) But that said, the double "that" is awkward. Second- (and actually germane)- I think Arzel does have a point as well re: point/counterpoint/point/counterpoint. However, I do think the "new" criticism should be reflected in the article in some fashion. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 19:13, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Fox News Channel denies any bias in the channel's news reporting, and argues that there is a distinction between its news coverage and editorial programming. Rams - which double "that" are you talking about?NickCT (talk) 19:41, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

We're getting so nitpicky with the language here that we're having trouble interpreting each others' points. As far as I'm concerned NickCT's last formulation in bold type is fine. Badmintonhist (talk) 19:52, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Nick--I was referring to my first suggestion (that increasingly that). FTR-I also support the bolded sentence. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 20:12, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I also support the emboldened sentence, however leaving it at that doesn't really address the whole impetus for this discussion. I do understand the legitimate concern for a neverending cycle of point/counterpoint; however the conversation about Fox News as "not a news organization" has grown to such proportions that we absolutely must address this additional criticism (the challenge of FNC's claim of a distinction between news an editorial coverage) in the intro. There is an entire article about this subject in AFD (though I don't see how it's going to get deleted), but the majority of the delete !votes contend that this information should be addressed in the FNC and Obama articles respectively; so in either case it's plainly a relevant and significant criticism that should be dealt with in the intro. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:45, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I, for one, am unimpressed. This sounds as If we are supposed to be paying homage to Obama Administration and MSNBC talking points and pretending that there something more than a recently manufactured rhetorical campaign at work here. Fox News is a news organization, a substantially biased news organization, but, nonetheless, a news organization.Badmintonhist (talk) 21:27, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Why not just go with... Fox News Channel denies any bias in the channel's news reporting, and says there is a distinction between its news coverage and editorial programming.?...again, we aren't taking sides, we are just reporting what fox has said and not stating it as fact, ect....anyways, this seems so ridiculous/nick picky/manufactured/muckracky/ect ect, imho...--Tom (talk) 21:39, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

That's your opinion, and you're certainly entitled to have it. However, the point is that the "news organization" label is not the opinion of many very significant figures, and the challenge to that opinion is widely sourced. This isn't just about Obama's challenge of that assertion, as many others have been critical of this for some time -- I remind you of the USA Today article discussed above from several years ago. However, once it's reached this level of disputed status WP:NPOV mandates that we properly balance the presentation. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

My opinion? Where did I give an opinion above?? You mean about this being nit picky, ect?? --Tom (talk) 21:52, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

So in the lead we should include alot of people don't think fox is a news organization but fox says they are? --Tom (talk) 21:58, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, again, I think NickCT's formulation is fine. If you look at it, it implies that critics complain about its news reporting, not just its commentators. Also, Fox's own rebuttal all but admits that its commentators sway to the right. I don't see any real cause for complaint about the way Nick wants to word it. Let's go with it. Badmintonhist (talk) 21:57, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

"argues that there is a distinction between its news coverage and editorial programming"

Rereading this I'm still a little concerned about the wording. The term "a distinction" is a little vague. A distinction in what? The quality of the programming? The material they cover? I call for a further rewrite to the following -

"argues that there is a distinction between the right leaning viewpoints expressed in its editorial programming and the stance taken in its news coverage"

I'm just going to pour this onto the table to see if the cat laps it up. I know Arzel is going to say "Wikipedia can't take a stance on whether the editorial programming is right-leaning" I refute that by saying 1) Those of us not drinking the kool-aid know it is 2) As the intro is written, it ALREADY takes a stance, it's just a little vague. NickCT (talk) 20:15, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm still stuck on the fact that we're not even addressing that the "distinction" (or whatever) is significantly challenged by lots of critics and observers (like, say, NYT, NPR, and the President of the United States)... //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:18, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

The lead is not the place for a full exposition of the arguments between Fox and its critics. At most, we could have a sourced statement to the effect that some assert a bias in Fox's news reporting as well as in its news commentary and then include Fox's basic rebuttal. Anything more than that should go in a separate section or in a separate article. Badmintonhist (talk) 21:38, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Bad: Isn't that sorta what we already have? I just want to clarify what's there. Do you have anything against my proposal specificly?NickCT (talk) 05:39, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I think that what we have in there now is perfectly okay. However, to to make it crystal clear we could, instead of saying Many observers say that Fox News Channel programming promotes conservative political positions, say something like Many observers say that Fox's news reporting as well as its news commentary promote conservative political positions (assuming we have sources which basically say this). In framing Fox's rebuttal, however, we should not say that Fox argues that there is a distinction between its news coverage and its right-leaning (or conservative) editorial programming unless Fox itself acknowledges that its news commentary is right leaning. Just leave the rebuttal as it is. Badmintonhist (talk) 14:45, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Logically speaking, isn't Fox arguing, "Our news coverage isn't biased, it's different from our editorial programming" implicity saying that thier editorial programming is biased? And if that is implicity, can't it be spelled out explicity. Additional see (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/23/us/politics/23fox.html?_r=2) . " Michael Clemente, senior vice president for news and editorial programming at Fox, said the White House was conflating the network’s commentary with its news coverage. " Is Michael Clemente admitting the editorial programming is right leaning?NickCT (talk) 19:25, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Nick, when Wikipedia gives Fox's rebuttal it has to accurately reflect what Fox has actually said in that rebuttal. Fox has asserted that there is a distinction between its news coverage and its commentary in claiming that the Obama administration has conflated the two. It has not, however, explicitly said that the commentary is right-leaning (though most of us realize that it is). It is our job in this particular sentence to accurately restate what Fox has said in response to the charges of bias. It isn't our job in this sentence to "connect the dots" for the reader. That would be WP:Synthesis. Badmintonhist (talk) 19:50, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Fox has asserted that there is a distinction between its news coverage and its commentary

What do scholars who study journalism think? Is there a distinction, or has Fox made a name for itself intentionally and willfully blurring this demarcation? Viriditas (talk) 06:41, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Bad - I grudgingly accept your point, though I really think this is another example of "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck". I do like Many observers say that Fox's news reporting as well as its editorial programming promote conservative political positions. Does anyone object? NickCT (talk) 11:54, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I can accept such as a compromise... if a good compromise should make nobody happy, you may have found a winner.  :) I think Veriditas has it right though -- "What do scholars who study journalism think? Is there a distinction, or has Fox made a name for itself intentionally and willfully blurring this demarcation?" //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 12:43, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think you can use the term "Many" to apply to news reporting as well as commentary. Even yesterday, when pressed, Valarie Jarret would not blanket the Obama Bias opinion towards FNC as a whole. Furthermore, this is taking a weasel word and expanding it to cover specifics when there are no real reliable sources that even validate the compromised "Many" to begin with. I don't see the benefit of blurring an already poorly sourced opinion. Arzel (talk) 14:37, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

On reflection, I would make "many" "some" and make sure that those "some" are solid reliable sources that don't raise questions of WP:UNDUE. Badmintonhist (talk) 16:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm strongly against "some". We spent a long time eliminating that wording. "Some" is extremely weaselly (moreso than "many") because it implies that the allegations might not be mainstream or majority opinion. Re Arzel's specific complaint; I think "Everyone" accepts that the editorial programming is right leaning (don't you Arzel?), and I think "many" say that bias bleeds into the news coverage.

On another note, kudos to Arzel for continuing to try to confuse and obfuscate. Obviously you have learned something from FNC. NickCT (talk) 21:18, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

"Some" rather than "many" is not a point I'm going to fight over. However, keep in mind that if you use the term "many" you have to have either many reliable sources reflecting the particular criticism that Fox's reporting as well as its commentary "promote conservative viewpoints" (if that's how you want to put it), or, at the very least, one or two unimpeachable sources which basically say that many observers say (or believe) this about Fox's reporting as well as its commentary. An editor can't simply say it on his own because he believes it to be true. "Some" is easier to source than "many". Badmintonhist (talk) 21:58, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Bad - We discussed this quite thuroughly. I think when we refer to "many" we are looking at a wealth of polling data that suggests that both among journalists and the public the consensus opinion seems to be that Fox leads the news industry in terms of bias.NickCT (talk) 14:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Let's try to be precise here. We already have a statement in the lead that "many observers" say that Fox News promotes "conservative political positions". I'm fine with it because it is true and adequately sourced. However, if you want to raise the ante by making it something like "many observers say that Fox's news reporting as well as its news commentary promote conservative political positions" then, to do this properly, you have to have reliable sources which basically say this. Sources which don't merely say that the channel is biased, but which say that both its "hard news" presentations and its commentary lean to the right. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:59, 2 November 2009 (UTC)