Talk:Joohoney

Can someone change the picture on this page to one that more clearly shows the subject

Navarrocortez (talk) 03:26, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Songwriting credits

I have begun to add Jooheon's producing credits to his page, but I realize that it may be best to give him a separate page for this, as he has over 100 song credits. Maybe titled: List of songs written and produced by Lee Joo-heon ? I wanted to get others thoughts on this first before I created the page. I will continue to add his credits to his main page for now. Nangears (talk) 07:15, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Inclusion of songwriting credits

I'm starting this on the talk page to avoid edit warring back and forth, and instead we can reach a consensus. Including songwriting credits, while not standard, seems to be frequent across many articles on Korean singer-songwriters, so inclusion here should not be an exception. The section does need better secondary sources, but as mentioned above in the talk page, I have been working on a separate page for his credits instead, and thus have been filling out and sourcing at that draft. But as there has been no response on whether to split the information or not, I have left the existing information on his page. Nangears (talk) 20:33, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

• It's frequent on K-pop articles because those are very poor articles. That you are going to write up a separate page for it only confirms that the prime purpose here is building walled gardens and inflate the importance of every scrap of information. No, this is not customary. We're not talking about List of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach here. To say "you have left the existing information" is deceptive; you stuck it back in, and your only argument is a variation on WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Sorry, but I am not going to take "this is the way it's done on Wikipedia" from someone with 185 article edits. Find secondary verification first. Drmies (talk) 20:43, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
  • I meant I left it in rather than deleting it while creating the other page, even though I have been expanding the information over there rather than here, I don't know what you find deceptive about that? You seem overly hostile and I'm not sure why. But, regardless, it being a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS doesn't make it a valid or invalid argument, as stated on that page, my point here and what I commented when reverting your edits is that you are not making a point from any kind of standard, codified editing rule on Wikipedia, besides needing more sourcing, which I've already addressed. The rest of this is just your personal opinion on what you find silly or important. Nangears (talk) 20:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
    • How is the sourcing addressed? How did you address it when you reverted my edit, twice? This is nothing. YOU, my friend, seem overly hostile, with the "you are not making a point from any kind of standard": that's an incorrect claim, because we don't have set rules for whether to include something, and your claim that "I just don't like it" is meaningless and hollow; it is, at heart, a violation of WP:AGF. What we do have, and you'd know this if you looked outside K-pop, is a broad consensus that we insert information when it's properly sourced and relevant. So I am looking at a standard, one that's bigger than the set of K-pop articles. This content is obviously not properly sourced, that's clear, and there are no secondary sources, none whatsoever, that prove its relevance, let alone one that explains that for this artist songwriting is important. Or that the artist is important for songwriting. So I have no choice but to think that you are including this so-far irrelevant and unsourced information why? Because you like it? Drmies (talk) 21:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
      • I addressed above that yes it does need better secondary sources, as the source provided is KOMCA's official database, and therefore it needs more secondary sources, the reason I haven't added those here is, as stated earlier, I have been expanding out this information in a draft. However, I can add the information in here as well, and then if a decision is made regarding spliting it to a separate page, it can be deleted here from the main page. If I have violated WP:AGF, so have you, as you accused me of being deceptive in your first response to me on this talk page and now have accused me of doing this out of personal bias. Not just Korean artists have their songwriting credits listed, either on their main pages or in a separate list page, and a simple search starting with "List of songs written by" can show this. So, again, as far as I can see, there is not reason for your continued deletion of the information. Nangears (talk) 21:59, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
        • Do you see how this accusation of personal bias just bounces back and forth? But you're telling me I have no good reason, when I've been giving you good reasons: relevance and verifiability, provided by secondary sources. Your reason still is only "other articles have it". Yeah, some other articles. I just looked at the first four GAs for musicians who were also songwriters: Hasil Adkins, Agnez Mo, Hasaan Ibn Ali, Nadia Ali (singer). No songwriting credits. Same with FA: David Bowie, Alan Bush (who has a separate List of compositions by Alan Bush--which is NOT a GA or FA), Mariah Carey, Chrisye, Frederick Delius (he has a separate List of compositions by Frederick Delius--but look at the sourcing there: hardly trivial), Nick Drake. I could go on. So yeah, I think I got some pretty decent reasons, since we need to be looking at peer-reviewed articles, GAs and FAs, to establish what good article writing is. And I think by now I've put in a significant amount of work, enough to warrant "revert". Drmies (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
          • Honestly I think we had some misunderstandings to start off with because the reason I kept pointing to songwriting credits existing for other articles is that I thought that was your primary issue with its inclusion here, as you kept referring to it as "resume fluff" and such, but if your primary problem is just that it needs better sourcing I can work on that on this page, because I've already started gathering secondary sources, I just hadn't been adding them to this page as I mentioned above. If you feel you need to delete the section still, I won't revert it again for the time being, until I gather further sourcing, but I would just say I don't know how familiar you are with the subject of the article but his songwriting IS something notable about him, it is brought up consistently on relation to both his individual work and group work. You have mentioned you have felt that kpop articles tend to include this as fluff and this is on part what you are basing this on, but all I can say to that is I can't speak for those other editors or the subjects in question because I don't know what articles you mean exactly or who did those edits, but I can say that in the case of this article it is notable and frequently referenced in secondary sources about him. Basically, I have been advocating for leaving it in as I know it is notable and just in general this page needs better sourcing, and I have been slowly working on that, but, again, if you feel the need to delete the information for now I will respect that decision. Nangears (talk) 17:56, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• I used to think songwriting credits were something I would expect to see on an article that states someone is a songwriter. Now though, I see how (especially with K-pop articles) credits are added as though they're some great achievement for the individual. They're not though, are they; from the credits currently listed at this article, only one song looks to be written solely by Joohoney. They're all co-written. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I certainly don't think a separate article is necessary, especially considering that none of the songs even have an article of their own to show the song's significance. K-pop articles especially seem to turn into a dumping ground for anything and everything the individual has done. I don't see why it has to be a table and can't just be written in prose that he's co-written songs for his own group and a few other artists, mentioning any specific songs if particularly notable. Alex (talk) 21:51, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
  • A couple of years ago I started seeing these credits, and at the same time we started seeing article content that said, essentially, "Person X also writes songs!", in the usual articles from the usual sources, as if "songwriting credit" had been discovered as a kind of claim to authenticity. It turned out to be an excellent opportunity to again add content, to add split-off articles, to increase the content of navigation templates, to add categories. Drmies (talk) 21:54, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Have to agree with Alex and Drmies. A large amount of these additions for Kpop artists are just "resume fluff" - they aren't notable as songwriters except within their own group. I don't think they are necessary at all. Evaders99 (talk) 21:06, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
    • As I said above in my latest response to Drmies, I acknowledge the section (and in my opinion the article overall) needs better sourcing. But, my main issue with Drmies's initial responses and your and Alex's here is that it seems that a unique set of rules apply to kpop articles because of bad past experiences with editors. To make a good comparison (and yes I understand WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, so no need to cite it), List of songs written by Harry Styles, another current pop star, formerly of a group, with most of his songs credits are co-written (as mentioned as an issue by Alex for this article). Not only is this acceptable content, it is ranked as one of the best quality list articles on WP. Yes, there is the issue of sourcing here whereas that is well sourced with not just the primary sources for crediting but also lots of secondary sources for notability, but I've acknowledged that issue above to Drmies. It is the flat dismissal because this is a Korean artist that bothers me and has had me arguing on the talk page. Nangears (talk) 22:09, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
      • And with List of songs written by Harry Styles, theres also an entire paragraph which talks about other people's remarks about his writing skills, and secondary sources. I didn't say co-writing the songs was an issue, BTW. It was linking back to my "as though they're some great achievement" comment. As in, yes he's co-written them. And what? What makes that notable? Articles are not resumes, we don't need everything. Alex (talk) 22:31, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
        • I understand that we don't need everything and I don't mean to keep repeating myself from my above comments with Drmies, but this is notable and there are secondary sources to prove it, I just had not updated this article to reflect that. And the discussion could have ended pretty quickly with a decision between: 1) leave the content as it is, poorly sourced, as I have the intention to improve sourcing to show notability or 2) delete it right now, until better sourcing can be shown as the section as it stands lacks secondary sourcing, thus not showing notability and not meeting criteria for inclusion on WP, which is where the discussion has ultimately landed and as I said above I would respect whatver choice Drmies made and not revert it. But the reason I was arguing was, again, the initial comments by Drmies as well as what both you and Evaders99 have commented were not to the effect of "this can only be in if it is better sourced and shows notability" but "this should be deleted as it is typical kpop article fluff", and when I pointed out that songwriting credits for singer-songwriters was a completely normal part of articles, kpop artist or not, and that this article just needed better sourcing (which, again, I have), this was dismissed for again insisting what I was trying to include was fluff, based on what seems to be your experiences with past editors of kpop articles. To be honest, I don't understand your clarification about the co-writing comment. If you weren't saying it was an issue then why even say it? Your clarification still makes it seem like an issue, because you are connecting it to not being a great achievement (therefore not notable)? I'm not sure if that is what you are linking it back to here in your comment, because if so that would still be saying it is an issue. If it is an issue of notability, that should be the case if it is co-written or not. Sorry, if this is just me failing to get what you mean, but overall this wasn't a major point, my point was simply that co-writing clearly has no inherent bearing on it (re:the Harry Styles article), so why bring it up? Nangears (talk) 00:22, 13 August 2020 (UTC)