Talk:Mughal dynasty
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[edit]I couldn’t edit below concerns possibly because I’m on a mobile phone currently but anyway let me get to the crux of the issue.
Firstly per MOS:Ethncity, mentions of ethnicity should not be in the lead. Notice how most wiki pages regarding empires/dynasties these days no longer have ethnicity in the lead? It’s because of this rule.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?redirect=no&title=MOS:ETHNICITY
Secondly that’s a little bit of a ref bomb(4 references) but nonetheless this shouldn’t remain in the lead and if you want to add it to the body, I would recommend gaining consensus. We don’t describe nationalistic terms like “indian” to dynasties/empires like the Mughals. On the main page(Mughal empire) it has never been described as Indian. And yes, I’m sure anyone can easily find references for their claims because there’s always going to be some author that has a different perspective. But the issue is, this isn’t really a mainstream view, the Mughals are typically seen as foreign. This was a point also mentioned in the talk page of the Mughal empire. You’re essentially presenting an alternative view and this is what regent park had to write about that.
“I think you're going to need consensus for that as well. Generally, if only some sources use a term, you need to get consensus for how to present that term (why only some sources use it, what are the alternative terms, etc)”
(like I previously mentioned, many of the points made there, apply to this conversation, even if these are two different terms).
So if you’re going to make this change, you’re gonna need consensus. Otherwise per Wikipedia:Consensus#No consensus, the previous content must be kept.
Removing it from the lead would be a first start per MOS:ETHNICITY. If you want to add it to the body, you’re going to need consensus. Otherwise this change shouldn’t be made.
Perhaps we should also wait on others. Maybe later I will ping the editors from the previous conversation for their opinion on the matter. But those are just my concerns for now. Someguywhosbored (talk) 07:45, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Forgot to ping you @PadFoot2008 Someguywhosbored (talk) 07:47, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Someguywhosbored, please note that MOS:ETHNICITY only applies to biographies of people, not dynasties. It is necessary to be mentioned as it's widely used in sources and is important (and helpful) for readers to know, and is additionally a much better lead. It is a standard observed in many dynastic articles including House of Hohenzollern, House of Bonaparte, or even Bhonsle dynasty. Should also mention that the entire discussion on the lead was mainly regarding the made-up construct "Indo-Muslim", which editors opposed the inclusion of + no sources were provided explicitly using that construct. PadFoot (talk) 08:30, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
(Very) extended discussion |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Someguywhosbored (talk) 00:33, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Edit: more to add. Minor note: “ Also the emperors with Persian mothers (apart from Akbar) were also half-Indian from their father's side (their fathers had mostly Indian ancestry). So they were both Persian and Indian, and hence certainly had Indian blood” This is a little dishonest. They aren’t “half Indian”. To be more specific they are Indics mixed with Turks, and I’ve already mentioned this but this means Persian dna would be higher in those emperors who are mixed than Indian and Turkic. Mixing doesn’t all the sudden get rid of all the Turkic blood that was there. Sure some of the fathers had mostly Indic dna(but their paternal lineage/haplogroup would still remain Turkic, blood wise they would be mixed with mostly Indian dna sure, but the paternal haplogroup doesn’t really change, and they are still mixed. So take a Turco Indian and mix it with a Persian, their kids would be more Persian than Turco Indian because the blood of the mothers are undiluted). Someguywhosbored (talk) 16:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Also there are so many sources which agree that they became Indians. Literally every historian who calls them foreign agrees they became indian later. So my suggestion remains the same as that of flemmish, But instead of "Indianized" turco mongol state, I prefer to add "Indian Turco Mongol state" which is way better. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 10:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Because it is a generally known and accepted fact that Mughal dynasty indeed was indianized, Infact let us talk abt Bahadur Shah Zafar, The last Mughal emperor who died fighting Britishers, He fully considered himself indian, The Mughals fully became Indian and even considered themselves indian. It can be seen in their poems and literatures (which I can show), India was their home. The current lead is very incomplete and absurd, Lead in a page is used for summarising about a person, an empire or something. The current lead doesn't even give the exact idea about what Mughals were. Let's just have an RFC done here because it is unnecessarily extending the talk page making future viewers very hard to read and understand the topic. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 08:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
After Zafar's defeat, he said:[1]
Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 11:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
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Continuation of Discussion
[edit]See full discussion |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Just like nadir shah considered himself a turkmen but was an iranian/Persian nevertheless.
Now I request you, it is NOT appropriate to argue and buldengeon the voting process session, take this issue to the other category. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 15:22, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
Now I suggest you to stop here, It is going to be an endless loop since we have totally different ideas, views and beliefs (as I have mentioned in my reply above), I believe when most reputed historians and sources call it Indian/Indianized, then it must be mentioned And extending this process will just make it very hard and time consuming for the viewers to read all this. This is why I have replied in such a way that it gets neutralized, Anyways cheers and happy editing! :) Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 05:26, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
"I’m sorry but your source literally says the exact opposite. “ Persian continued as the official language till the time of Emperor Shajahan in the seventeen century, when Hindustani (Urdu) took the position of the official language in the Mughal courts”. You’re trying your best to come up with your own interpretation. But at this point im not even sure what you’re trying to argue anymore. I’ve noticed in many other discussions you tend to misinterpret what the sources have written a lot. But I’m sorry, what do you not exactly get here? It literally says it was an official language UNTIL/TILL the reign of shah Jahan. Afterwards Urdu took its place. Obviously Persian wouldn’t disappear completely from the public arena but how does that mean it remained an official language according to your citation? Remaining in the administration doesn’t change the fact that it was no longer an official language which your source makes pretty clear. And This contradicts the book I sent." Quote the book you sent previously again. The source of mine clearly says (quoting again)
Notice the word "Court proceedings " It clearly says "Until Urdu took its place in the official court" which was my point. Urdu merely replaced it in the "court" by the reign of Shah jahan, But the same source later clearly says Persian continued to be used in the administration, Proving it wasn't declared unofficial. That synergy of Persian, Urdu (Hindustani) and Sanskrit had continued as the administrative and intellec- tual languages during the Mughal period I am not even interpreting anything here, it is clear what the source is saying by literally reading it. Urdu merely replaced it in the court. That is why the word "until" is used here. But persian still was used in administration as per the same source few lines later. Proving it wasn't declared unofficial, It continued to be used as an administrative language. "This doesn’t answer my question in the slightest. If there are sources which both use the term “Persianized” and “Indianized”, what’s the point favoring adding one viewpoint in the lead while ignoring the other? Why wouldn’t we add persianized in the lead by your logic? The other suggestion is to call it “indianized indo Persian” but then it brings the question as to why we even need to add the term “indianized”, especially considering “Persianized” is not being added? It just makes no sense and it ignores the cultural contributions from other ethnic groups. Also you know your free to disengage from the topic yourself if you don’t want to continue this? I’m not sure how asking me to disengage after writing a large response is supposed to get me to stop replying to your misinterpretation of the arguments made? Again I have no real plan on continuing this but you keep responding so obviously I’m going to reply back. Just remember that before I wrote a comment for Nietzsche, you literally were the one who responded to me. Asking me to stop when you were the one who started this makes zero sense especially if your still writing large responses in hopes of getting the last word I mean this respectfully of course. Your free to stop yourself if you’d like. This is my last piece if we agree to end it here." Because almost none of the source says Mughals became "Persians" while so many reputed sources clearly say how Mughals were from a different ethnic backround and cultural background but became "Indian". I am ready to quote Richard John F again here: "Although the first two Timurid emperors and many of their noblemen were recent migrants to the subcontinent, the dynasty and the empire itself became indisputably Indian. The interests and futures of all concerned were in India, not in ancestral homelands in the Middle East or Central Asia. Furthermore, the Mughal Empire emerged from the Indian historical experience. It was the end product of a millennium of Muslim conquest, colonization, and state-building in the Indian subcontinent" Quoting Britanica: "The empire itself, however, was a purely Indian historical experience. Mughal culture blended Perso-Islamic and regional Indian elements into a distinctive but variegated whole. Although by the early 18th century the regions had begun to reassert their independent positions, Mughal manners and ideals outlasted imperial central authority. The imperial center, in fact, came to be controlled by the regions. The trajectory of the Mughal Empire over roughly its first two centuries (1526–1748) thus provides a fascinating illustration of premodern state building in the Indian subcontinent." "The individual abilities and achievements of the early Mughals—Bābur, Humāyūn, and later Akbar—largely charted this course. Bābur and Humāyūn struggled against heavy odds to create the Mughal domain, whereas Akbar, besides consolidating and expanding its frontiers, provided the theoretical framework for a truly Indian state." Even britanica agrees with the Persianization of Mughals initially but says the same on how they built an Indian state based on Indian historical experience Notice the same argument was used by John Richard to call it Indian?
2)-Mughals were indeed from a different cultural background (persian backround) but they became "indian", all of the 5 sources i cited, None of them disagree with the fact that Mughals indeed were persianized. But they became "Indians" because of xyz reasons we have mentioned over a million times already. Their concerns didn't lay in persia nor Persia was their home. They soon even adopted Urdu over Persian as a court language (yet Persian was official and used in administration though). Now I will stop here, You can keep continuing. But I may respond if you again miss-represent me in case (with all respect ofcourse).
Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 09:14, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
"A Muslim dynasty of Turkic-Mongol origin that ruled most of northern India from the early 16th to the mid-18th century. After that time it continued to exist as a considerably reduced and increasingly powerless entity until the mid-19th century. The Mughal dynasty was notable for its more than two centuries of effective rule over much of India; for the ability of its rulers, who through seven generations maintained a record of unusual talent; and for its administrative organization. A further distinction was the attempt of the Mughals, who were Muslims, to integrate Hindus and Muslims into a united Indian state"[10] Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 01:56, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
The source literally says Persian was the official language in the administration specially in the court proceedings. And it literally says Urdu took place of Persian in the court proceedings. Which is where it replaced persian from. But the same source, again i repeat the same source 4 lines later says Persian continued to be used as an administrative language. And what are administrative languages? The languages used in the official administration. All the laws, announcements etc are written in an administrative language which is indeed an official language. With all respect, either you have a problem in reading...Or you aren't even reading. The source literally says "Persian was used in administration and court proceedings, Until the reign of shah jahan when Urdu replaced persian as the official language in the court. You are ignoring the words "in the court". Urdu replaced persian only in the court. And 4 lines later it clearly says Persian continued to be used in the administration. Proving it was still official in the administration, which it was. You are trying your best to turn it around the way you think it is, But this can't happen. "You keep repeating this but you have failed to answer my question multiple times. If there are sources which also use the word “Persianized”, why is there preference for the term “indianized” instead? One could just easily add that it was Persianized based on the argument you’re making. And despite not needing that term in the lead, I still think that latter term would be more accurate anyway" I have answered this over a thousand times. Anyone reading our discussion will agree on this. We prefer "Indianized" or "Indian" over Persianized because their concerns laid in the future of India and they considered india to be their home, Their concerns didn't lay in persia. They even slowly left Persian and started speaking hindustani. The reason why we prefer "Indianized" over "persianized" is answered by Britanica: Quoting Britanica: "The empire itself, however, was a purely Indian historical experience. Mughal culture blended Perso-Islamic and regional Indian elements into a distinctive but variegated whole. Although by the early 18th century the regions had begun to reassert their independent positions, Mughal manners and ideals outlasted imperial central authority. The imperial center, in fact, came to be controlled by the regions. The trajectory of the Mughal Empire over roughly its first two centuries (1526–1748) thus provides a fascinating illustration of premodern state building in the Indian subcontinent." Britanica agrees Mughal empire emerged from an Indian historical experience. The same reason given by Richard John to call it 'Indian': Quoting John Richards; "Although the first two Timurid emperors and many of their noblemen were recent migrants to the subcontinent, the dynasty and the empire itself became indisputably Indian. The interests and futures of all concerned were in India, not in ancestral homelands in the Middle East or Central Asia. Furthermore, the Mughal Empire emerged from the Indian historical experience. It was the end product of a millennium of Muslim conquest, colonization, and state-building in the Indian subcontinent" Quoting britannica again: ""The individual abilities and achievements of the early Mughals—Bābur, Humāyūn, and later Akbar—largely charted this course. Bābur and Humāyūn struggled against heavy odds to create the Mughal domain, whereas Akbar, besides consolidating and expanding its frontiers, provided the theoretical framework for a truly Indian state." Even britanica agrees with the Persianization of Mughals initially but says the same on how they built an Indian state based on Indian historical experience despite of the cultures they were influenced by. (Although even that is debatable and I would argue Mughals became more indianized than they were persianized but that's a different topic anyway) "Does not change ethnic and cultural identity, especially if they are still heavily influenced by said cultures." Already shared tonns of sources of their identity. They became Indians, Were indian emperors of Timurid origin. So their identity indeed was Indian. As for cultural identity, This won't change the fact that the place they considered their home, the place they ruled from and for, The place where their concerns laid, The language they started speaking from the reign of shah jahan were all Indian. Persian influence in them won't make them Non-Indian. Like i said, India is a diverse subcontinent. You don't necessarily have to be an Indo aryan or Dravidian to be called as one. I would again like to quote britanica because it sums this pretty well: "A Muslim dynasty of Turkic-Mongol origin that ruled most of northern India from the early 16th to the mid-18th century. After that time it continued to exist as a considerably reduced and increasingly powerless entity until the mid-19th century. The Mughal dynasty was notable for its more than two centuries of effective rule over much of India; for the ability of its rulers, who through seven generations maintained a record of unusual talent; and for its administrative organization. A further distinction was the attempt of the Mughals, who were Muslims, to integrate Hindus and Muslims into a united Indian state" Despite of their influences from Persian and their Turko mongol origin. Mughal empire indeed was a United Indian state. It was indeed indian. Again I am still wondering why would you purposely ignore the examples of Afsharids, and other dynasties which were clearly not the same ethnicity as the people they ruled over, But they still were considered as a part of them. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 09:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
"Although the first two Timurid emperors and many of their noblemen were recent migrants to the subcontinent, the dynasty and the empire itself became indisputably Indian. The interests and futures of all concerned were in India, not in ancestral homelands in the Middle East or Central Asia. Furthermore, the Mughal Empire emerged from the Indian historical experience. It was the end product of a millennium of Muslim conquest, colonization, and state-building in the Indian subcontinent" Quoting Britanica: "The empire itself, however, was a purely Indian historical experience. Mughal culture blended Perso-Islamic and regional Indian elements into a distinctive but variegated whole. Although by the early 18th century the regions had begun to reassert their independent positions, Mughal manners and ideals outlasted imperial central authority. The imperial center, in fact, came to be controlled by the regions. The trajectory of the Mughal Empire over roughly its first two centuries (1526–1748) thus provides a fascinating illustration of premodern state building in the Indian subcontinent." "The individual abilities and achievements of the early Mughals—Bābur, Humāyūn, and later Akbar—largely charted this course. Bābur and Humāyūn struggled against heavy odds to create the Mughal domain, whereas Akbar, besides consolidating and expanding its frontiers, provided the theoretical framework for a truly Indian state." Even britanica agrees with the Persianization of Mughals initially but says the same on how they built an Indian state based on Indian historical experience Notice the same argument was used by John Richard to call it Indian?
"What do you mean by “the bengal sultanate is Bengali?” There were some Bengali emperors but the vast majority were foreigners, including its founder. It would be more accurate to say it’s syncretic. It is considered bengali and I can cite you numerous sources which calls it a "Bengali Sultanate." "This does not say anything about identity. This is just an opinion put forward by Richard. You need an actual source that word for word states that the Mughals “considered themselves to be Indian” otherwise this is original research. The only sources which refer to their identity, talked about the house of Timur. " Again, the opinion of historians matter way more. What you are doing is original research here. Your question was about their Timurid identity. I answered it how they became Indians despite of being Timurids? I can cite several more sources which says the same. We go by what scholars and experts say. "And this was a question for Nietzsche anyway. I presume you keep interrupting because you don’t want his mind to be changed but this is a pretty serious question that virtually everyone in the opposition has failed to answer. " The assumption is wild but almost everyone has answered this question of yours over a thousand times before, you just keep repeating your questions despite of the answers you get backed up with sources. If you are asking a question, You will get an answer.
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Continuation of Discussion Part II
[edit]@Someguywhosbored, I noticed that you made the argument below that only "few sources" use the word Indian. This is however not true. I've decided to use sources to make a point here. If you'd see the books results for "Indian Mughals", you'll see that it is used by than 4,120 authors. This clearly shows that the term "Indian" is used by a huge number of authors for the dynasty. I am still hoping to reach a consensus with you here, so I am open to all suggestions you shall like to make here. I do not inherently oppose the use of the term "Persianate" in the lead either. PadFoot (talk) 13:20, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nobody says you don’t have the ability to extend it. It just isn’t a good way of reaching consensus anymore because it’s already been 30 days and we have plenty of comments and opinions already. Instead someone should look at the arguments and make a decision. My question is, what is the goal of extending this RFC? At this point, are you just looking for more votes? (which again isn’t the way consensus is formed) Because haven’t we already been through all the arguments which you still haven’t responded to? In particular, the fact that categorizing the Mughals as “indianized”, ignores the complex multicultural nature of the dynasty? One can just as easily call them “Persianized”.
- “The RfC should probably be extended for say one more month, and then after waiting for one week after the last !vote comes in, we see which option has a greater support, and that would be the consensus”
- As I’ve already suspected, it seems you’re trying to fish for more votes even though that’s not how consensus is formed which I have repeated many times. It’s not about which option has the most votes or numerical support. It’s about which argument is more sound.
- Wikipedia:Consensus
- “Many of these discussions will involve polls of one sort or another; but as consensus is determined by the quality of arguments (not by a simple counted majority), polls should be regarded as structured discussions rather than voting. Responses indicating individual explanations of positions using Wikipedia policies and guidelines are given the highest weight.”
- So no, consensus is not based on voting or which option has the most support. You seem to have greatly misunderstood that. In Flemmishs talk page, you got excited seeing as how option 1 was in the lead by ONE vote(that quickly changed), as if one more vote somehow determines the outcome of this RFC. Again, that’s not how it works. And this just goes to show that you’re not interested in the argument itself, but the votes.
- “As of now, per no consensus, neither the addition nor the status quo is favoured. What you are trying to do here is trying to push your own stance, i.e., status quo here, by arguing that no consensus has been reached.”
- Um…that is indeed what has transpired here. Consensus was not reached, which means it’s no consensus. The first sentence literally mentions that fact. It’s funny that I’m being called out for trying to push my own stance considering everything all that’s been said here. I mean you literally restarted the RFC because you knew no consensus means you won’t be able to push your preferred edit. Simply put, I question the necessity of doing this all over again. It may just be one of those situations where consensus can’t be reached without some outside intervention.
- Moving on, I don’t I ever disagreed with the fact that there are sources which use the term “Indian”. But there are plenty of sources which refer to the empire as persanized, and others don’t mention the term “indian” to describe the Mughals at all. I’m sure you can find a lot of sources which support your viewpoint, but that’s not the issue here and that’s never been the issue.
- (Btw what exactly are you showing me here? You just looked up the words “Indian” and “Mughal”. It could literally mean anything depending on the context these words were used in the book).
- Also didn’t Flemmish have his own grievances with the term “Indian”? He preferred the term “indianized”, which is what this RFC is about yes?
- “ I am still hoping to reach a consensus with you here, so I am open to all suggestions you shall like to make here. I do not inherently oppose the use of the term "Persianate" in the lead either”
- Well I’m glad to hear that maybe we can cooperate, but I just can’t see leaving the terms “indianized” or “Indian” in the article to describe the Mughals. Maybe instead you can write about how the Mughals were culturally influenced by various different cultures in the body, including Persian and Indian. But to outright refer to them as “indianized” or “indian”? I think that removes a lot nuance.
- Either way, I think an uninvolved admin should take a look at this and see which argument is most sound. I’m not sure how that process would work but generally speaking, that’s how RFCs end.
- I think the biggest takeaway for you is understanding how consensus is achieved.
- “Consensus on Wikipedia neither requires unanimity (which is ideal but rarely achievable), nor is it the result of a vote.” Someguywhosbored (talk) 13:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Someguywhosbored I did not just pair two words together, I used quotes, which means that the search showed that there were 4,000 authors who used the exact term Indian Mughals, and 8,000 authors that used the term Indian Moghuls, which is a massive number ("Indian Mughals" obviously indicates the dynasty here, it is in quotes which means that Google will return authors using the exact term and also, Mughals here obviously refers to the dynasty, see the results itself). I'm not claiming here that they were ethnic anything. I understand all your concerns and value your opinion, as well all other opinions, regarding it. We can perhaps have a lead structured like this:
PadFoot (talk) 14:12, 19 August 2024 (UTC)The Mughal dynasty was a Persianate Indian dynasty of Turco-Mongol origin that ruled over the Mughal Empire from 1526 to 1857.
- refer back to my previous comment for the first point. Nobody contests the use of sources which use the word “Indian”. Some do, some don’t.
- “The Mughal dynasty was a Persianate Indian dynasty of Turco-Mongol origin that ruled over the Mughal Empire from 1526 to 1857.”
- Eh, this is still very problematic. Firstly we already agreed on not using the term “Indian” in the previous discussion. Two, RegentPark already mentioned how “indianized” seems to be Wikipedia:No original research#Synthesis of published material. In fact, “Persianate Indian” seems to be WP:SYNTH as well.
- Honestly no matter how you cut it, I don’t see any good reason for referring to the empire as “indian” or “Indianized”. I appreciate that you tried to understand concerns, but this still seems problematic. Honestly I’d rather just let an uninvolved admin look at the arguments and let them make a decision or something. Someguywhosbored (talk) 14:40, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
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RfC: Mughal dynasty lead
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Per discussions above, these suggestions have made for a new Mughal dynasty lead:
- "The Mughal dynasty was an Indianized Turco-Mongol dynasty that ruled over the Mughal Empire from 1526 to 1857."
- Or: "The Mughal dynasty was an Indianized dynasty of Turco-Mongol origin that ruled over the Mughal Empire from 1526 to 1857."
- No changes.
Kindly, state the preferred options below. PadFoot (talk) 12:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, tell us what the current version is! Here:
The Mughal dynasty (Persian: دودمان مغل; Dudmân-e Mughal) was a dynasty which comprised the members of the imperial House of Babur (Persian: خاندانِ آلِ بابُر; Khāndān-e-Āl-e-Bābur), also known as the Gurkanis (Persian: گورکانیان; Gūrkāniyān),[1] who ruled the Mughal Empire from c. 1526 to 1857. Johnbod (talk) 14:59, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Option 2
- I’ve already given my reasons for why but I’ll give a short summary. I’ve heard of all the arguments, and I’m still left with a lot of unanswered questions and issues.
- let’s start. There are a minority of sources which use the word “indian”(although I’m not sure about “indianized” and “indo Persian” to describe the mughals, and this appears to be an alternative view), but many others don’t. In this case, RegentPark had a wonderful answer which was promptly ignored.
- “Generally, if only some sources use a term, you need to get consensus for how to present that term (why only some sources use it, what are the alternative terms, etc)”
- While we went over alternative terms in minor detail, there was never an explanation for why many sources don’t include the Indian claim.
- Moving on, the mughals were mixed and multicultural, so why do we need to emphasize that they were “indianized” which is debatable? A common argument I heard is that the later Mughals became Indian but this ignores the fact that a lot of them were actually birthed to Persian mothers, which I went over in my previous comment. In origin they were Turco mongol, later they mixed with other ethnicities including Persians and Indians. Calling them “indianized” is way too restrictive because it ignores the various people that influenced them and lacks nuance. The term “indo Persian” is a little better in this case because it implies Persian characteristics,
- but I don’t think I’ve seen a source which directly calls the Mughals an “indo Persian” empire. Maybe they patronized indo persian culture but that’s not the same thing. We would still need a source.
- Also pre and post 1947 India’s are two separate entities. It makes no real sense to force modern day concepts onto a historical world which differed greatly from today.
- As RegentPark had previously stated, these terms are way too restrictive for the lead. And unfortunately topics like are a source of a lot of ethnic bias.
- There may be more revisions to this edit if there’s anything I forgot to add. But I stand with my choice.
- Edit: Indeed there are sources which refer to the empire as Persianized. So we definitely have contradicting sources. But this also proves my point. The empire was multicultural and mixed, which is why some sources refer to the empire as Indianized, while others typically don’t. Based on the fact that there is a source which states the empire was Persianized, does that mean we should add Persianized to the article now instead(obviously not)? This is why I prefer not adding ethnicity to the lead. The topic is so nuanced due to how mixed the mughals were. It would be better to just leave things as it is. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persians_in_the_Mughal_Empire#cite_note-Canfield-1
- Option 1: A vast multitude of sources refer to the dynasty as an "Indian dynasty", the "Indian Mughal dynasty" or the "Mughals of India". Most historians refer to the dynasty as having a Turco-Mongol origin that was subsequently Indianized in all aspects including culture, language and ancestry. All the Mughals after Akbar had a mostly Indian ancestry, apart from a few who were half-Indian and half-Persian. All emperors that came after Shah Jahan, spoke the Hindustani language, and their culture was undoubtedly Indianized with some Persian elements. PadFoot (talk) 12:47, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 1: As the original proposer of that option, but restating my argument: The Mughals were originally a Turco-Mongol dynasty, who gradually Indianised through adopting of Indian traditions, culture, and identity.[2][3] Yes the Mughals were a multicultural state and dynasty, but the question here is what they became, not what cultures influenced them or they originated from; being influenced by Persian culture is much different than adopting an Indian identity (of course not referring to the country here as that didn't exist until 1947 but the historical term), which they certainly did. Ethnicity and culture is a nuanced topic but "Indianized dynasty of Turco-Mongol origin" sums it up pretty well. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 12:48, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 1: As the above sources cited and per the reasons given by flemmish and padfoot, This is an undisputed fact that Mughals gradually were Indianized and became Indians despite being of Turco-mongol origin. This is supported by almost every historian including historian Richard John[4] who is known for his expertise and research in Mughal history and is One of the leading historians regarding Mughal history in the United States.[5] Their home was india and they died in India. They had the similar identity as of Afsharids in iran (Even afsharids weren't of iranian origin but shared a persian identity), Anyways, The lead summarises Mughals perfectly and tells a lot to readers about them. Unlike the option 2 which tells absolutely nothing about them. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 13:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 1: As per the sources I've read (Cambridge history of the Mughal Empire) I found them to be reliable enough, and I do think the Mughals were thoroughly Indianized as you can see through their clothing, etc. Sure they were originally Turco-Mongols but their interests and dominion laid in India (historical India not present day Post 1947's India), which they needed to prioritize. Many reputed historians have testified and admitted the fact that Mughals indeed became Indians and were Indianized, one being John F Richards, the same guy who's book I mentioned. Akshunwar (talk) 07:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 2 : I would go for status quo because even if i agree for a fact that later mughals are consider culturally indian by several historians, saying it in generic terms for a whole dynasty isnt helpful for the article and for readers as well because it is more complex thing to generalise for a whole dyansty as there are many ethnic mixes in mughals. And as RegentsPark suggested i still believes that suggested edits be more suitable as of now. Curious man123 (talk) 10:26, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 2: Mughals were essentially a syncretic dynasty; they can't be characterized as simply Indian, Turkish or Persian. Lede, as it is now, is okay-ish. Mughals were, by and large, followers of Persian culture, and from their administration to cuisine and architecture followed Persian model, even if the dynasty had Indian cultural aspects. Ethnically, of coarse, they were not Indian. Hence in my opinion labelling the whole dynasty as Indianized does not make more sense than saying that it was a Persianized dynasty. If not the present lede, it can be modified as per the other syncretic Islamic dynasties like Timurid dynasty, Seljukids, Ghaznavids and others:
The Mughal dynasty was a culturally Indo-Persian, Sunni Muslim dynasty of Turko-Mongol origin which ruled the Mughal Empire from c. 1526 to 1857.
- In this way, all cultural and ethnical aspects of the Mughals would be properly emphasized. I would appreciate your thoughts over this. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:10, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 2 as per the reason showed by Curious man123. Mehedi Abedin 19:35, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 2 The correct description of this dynasty is "was a South Asian/Indian dynasty of Turco-Mongol origin". Calling it Turco-Mongol is incorrect because though its origins were Turco-Mongo, the dynasty itself was hardly that. Using the term "Indianized" appears to be a rough attempt at synthesizing the various sources that describe the changing nature of the dynasty and we should not be doing synthesis. Rather than attempting to force fit an ethnicity into the lead sentence, those nuances are best left to the body of the article. (Though, I'm open to some version of what I call "the correct description" above and I wish PadFoot had done a more thorough listing of options in this RfC). RegentsPark (comment) 14:42, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 1 Based on the arguments provided by Flemmish Nietzsche. Nxcrypto Message 17:50, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 2 No need to go in unnecessary details on lead which are ignored by most of the sources. TheRollBoss001 (talk) 15:30, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option 1 based on the explanation given by earlier editors, The empire emerged from an Indian historical experience and it collapsed in india, It can be anything but Non-Indian Chauthcollector (talk) 07:44, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- Option 2 Per @Sutyarashi:'s arguments. -- However, the idea of adding "Indianized" seems almost purely synthesized, and the sources provided by Flemmish Nietzsche are not from actual historians/scholarly sources, I see almost no reason for such a change at all. Noorullah (talk) 06:30, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Option 1
- Per the arguments given by Padfoot, The empire emerged from Indian experience and submerged in India, It is backed by many WP:RS sources, This alone is a very big reason for adding "Indian" or "Indianized " in the lead despite other cultural influences they had Deccanichad (talk) 17:05, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- This account is…pretty new. Anyway RFC is over btw. Someguywhosbored (talk) 19:47, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- A consensus hasn't been reached yet, so we should probably wait for more votes, and re-open. PadFoot (talk) 09:11, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- This account is…pretty new. Anyway RFC is over btw. Someguywhosbored (talk) 19:47, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This RfC was extended at this date due to lack of consensus. PadFoot (talk) 09:24, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- None of these Instead: "The Mughal dynasty was an Indianized dynasty of Turco-Mongol origin that ruled over the Mughal Empire from 1526 to about 1715, with a further period of nominal control until 1857." - A link to History of India is useless and distracting in the first sentence, and the REAL dates of Mughal control of the "empire" need to be given right at the start, as a high proportion of readers think that the Mughals actually ruled India for much longer than they actually did. Johnbod (talk) 14:59, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for taking the time to reply here. We probably need some outside input
- I wanted to ask, is this the lead you think should be in place or do you mean the first option of this RFC should be replaced with your suggestion?
- I think RegentsPark mentioned that “indianized” seems to be WP:SYNTH. Quote
- “Using the term "Indianized" appears to be a rough attempt at synthesizing the various sources that describe the changing nature of the dynasty and we should not be doing synthesis.”
- Personally I wouldn’t support leaving indianized or Indian in the lead. But what’s the best way to move forward now if we’re having trouble building consensus? Someguywhosbored (talk) 15:43, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Johnbod, To be truthful, that does seem like a good idea. The Mughal Empire after 1715 comprised numerous polities (the Marathas, the EIC, the various Nawabs, Rajas, Nizam, etc.) who only paid nominal allegiance to the emperor. Perhaps we exclude the dates from the first sentence, and mention the nuanced dates with further information in the second sentence of the same lede. Something like this perhaps: "The Mughal dynasty was an Indianized dynasty of Turco-Mongol origin that ruled over the Mughal Empire. The effective dynastic control over the empire lasted from 1526 to 1715, after which the empire disintegrated into a collection of vassal states who acknowledged the nominal suzerainty of the dynasty until 1857." Or we could go with the smaller version given by you as well. PadFoot (talk) 16:18, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, that would be fine. I can't get worked up about whether it's "Indian" or "Indianized" in the first sentence (both are valid I think, bearing in mind that later emperors had predominantly Rajput recent ancestors), & I don't think a "Persia" word is necessary - an "India" one is. Not giving misleading dates is more important. Johnbod (talk) 18:08, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I personally wouldn’t support having either term. I think if one must really associate the dynasty with the subcontinent, then one can just say that the dynasty was in “South Asia” like the Mughal empire page. I agree with RegentPark when he stated that South Asia would be preferable to indian, or a loaded synthetic term like Indianized. By referring to them as indianized, it ignores the multi cultural aspect of the empire. One can just as easily say the dynasty was persianized for the same reason as plenty of emperor's had Persian blood and there were more heavily influenced by Persian culture. Someguywhosbored (talk) 23:59, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- But I think the biggest problem is figuring out how to build consensus for this discussion. Someguywhosbored (talk) 00:00, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- I personally wouldn’t support having either term. I think if one must really associate the dynasty with the subcontinent, then one can just say that the dynasty was in “South Asia” like the Mughal empire page. I agree with RegentPark when he stated that South Asia would be preferable to indian, or a loaded synthetic term like Indianized. By referring to them as indianized, it ignores the multi cultural aspect of the empire. One can just as easily say the dynasty was persianized for the same reason as plenty of emperor's had Persian blood and there were more heavily influenced by Persian culture. Someguywhosbored (talk) 23:59, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Comment by Fowler&fowler:
No change needed "was an early modern empire in south Asia" is just fine. Supplementation with a genealogy is not required. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:00, 19 August 2024 (UTC)Scratched; see below. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:23, 19 August 2024 (UTC)- Um, @Fowler&fowler you seem to be a bit mistaken here, this is the Mughal dynasty page, not the Mughal Empire page. PadFoot (talk) 17:05, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh. :) This is what happens when you click on something and don't bother with reading anything. I don't really have any interest in this page. I've scratched my comment. Apologies. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:23, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, no worries. PadFoot (talk) 17:28, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh. :) This is what happens when you click on something and don't bother with reading anything. I don't really have any interest in this page. I've scratched my comment. Apologies. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:23, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Discussion
[edit]Please discuss in the section above.
References
- ^ Zahir ud-Din Mohammad (10 September 2002). Thackston, Wheeler M. (ed.). The Baburnama: Memoirs of Babur, Prince and Emperor. New York: Modern Library. p. xlvi. ISBN 978-0-375-76137-9.
In India the dynasty always called itself Gurkani, after Temür's title Gurkân, the Persianized form of the Mongolian kürägän, 'son-in-law,' a title Temür assumed after his marriage to a Genghisid princess.
- ^ Chang, H.K. Civilizations of the Silk Road.
By the mid-17th century, the descendants of Genghis Khan and Timur had gradually been Indianized
- ^ Chandra, Yashaswini. The Tale of the Horse: A History of India on Horseback.
Since Babur was eyeing Hindustan from across the Khyber and Akbar had laid down strong roots, the Mughal dynasty had become a thoroughly Indianized one.
- ^ Richards, John F. (1995), The Mughal Empire, Cambridge University Press, p. 2, ISBN 978-0-521-56603-2, archived from the original on 22 September 2023, retrieved 9 August 2017 Quote: "Although the first two Timurid emperors and many of their noblemen were recent migrants to the subcontinent, the dynasty and the empire itself became indisputably Indian. The interests and futures of all concerned were in India, not in ancestral homelands in the Middle East or Central Asia. Furthermore, the Mughal Empire emerged from the Indian historical experience. It was the end product of a millennium of Muslim conquest, colonization, and state-building in the Indian subcontinent."
- ^ Gilmartin, David. "About John F. Richards". Guha, Sumit; Bhagavan, Manu. Society for Advancing the History of South Asia. Archived from the original on March 4, 2016. Retrieved 2015-05-02.
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