User talk:Central16
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[edit]Hello, Central16, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
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Lecithin article
[edit]Hi Central16 Thanks for adding content to the Lecithin article, about the NEJM study published last spring. I do not know if you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies on sourcing health-related content (looks like you have mostly edited non-health articles so far) but if you look at the WP:MEDRS guideline, you will see that for health-related content, we have a slightly higher standard than the normal sourcing policy, WP:PSTS. For health related content, the requirement for using secondary sources (not primary ones) is even more important, as Wikipedia needs to communicate the scientific/medical consensus, not just "the latest hot thing". I found a review that was published after the NEJM paper came out, read it, and wrote a brief description based on it. Bottom line is, while the findings in the NEJM paper are really interesting, they are not "medicine" yet - even the review describes them as preliminary. So that is what the content now says. Hope that makes sense. Happy to talk more if you like. Jytdog (talk) 00:11, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
Camel rider
[edit]Hi, I am currently abroad and away from my sources, so I will have to postpone providing the sources that claim this is Abu Bakr ibn Umar. But I think I noticed your source for your interpretation is this, which doesn't allow me to follow further to track down the original Museu Maritim. Seems like a very idiosyncratic reading - e.g. they read "Desgreliona" what is clearly written "Pestre Ioha", i.e. good old Prester John (as confirmed in the underlying text in Viladestes: "Pestre joan per la grasia de deu servicialas de Jhesu christ, etc."). Not that it matters much, portolan chart reading tends to be idiosyncratic, with no two scholars reading the same and most cartographers themselves transcribing with frequent interpolations and errors.
The label is "Rex Bubecer". I guess it can look like "Bubeder" to some readers, since the gold paint flowed and closes the C. But it is not a D. The only other clear "D" on the Mecia chart (in "Lo Solda") and it is very clearly pinched with a straight edge on the left and very pronounced serifs, which the alleged D in "Bubeder" clearly doesn't have. It is "Rex Bubecer", the gold ink flowed to close the c, and has been misread.
That said, the text underneath reinforces it: Mecia de Viladestes writes (to the best of readings, as it is blurry): "Tota aquesta partida, tenen gens que van embocats qe nols veu hom sino los uils e van en tendes, e fan cavalcades am camells e ay moltes besties qui an non çalams de aquel quyr, fan les targes les quals apelen mosifes", which is an almost-direct transcription of the inscription in the 1375 Catalan Atlas, with the slight typographical difference that Mecia writes "çalams" where Cresques writes "lemp" and Mecia adds "mosifes". To translate: "In all these parts, you have people who veil themselves so only their eyes are seen and go in tents, and do cavalcades on camels, and many beasts called çalams (lemp in Cresques), from whose skins they make targets (i.e. bucklers/shields), which are called mosifes". Lemp = lamth/lamt = Saharan oryx. The Almoravid shields were famously made of oryx skin, that were repeatedly commented on by contemporaries; so much that the primary constituent tribe was called the "Lamtuna". (On a side-note, in a famous tale, in the 1080s, when Alfonso VI of Castile was raiding the district of Moorish Seville, and mockingly demanded entrance into the city because "I need to rest, I am tired from so much raiding in the hot sun", the Andalusian governor replied menancingly "Don't fret. I intend to soon provide a shadowy spot for you to rest, under a canopy made from the hide of a lamt" (i.e. he had just invited the Almoravids over from Morocco). The last part Viladestes adds (which is not in Cresques) is that they are called "Mosifes". Mosifes = Massufa, one of the constituent tribes of the Almoravids (and, incidentally, the Massufa were the branch of the Almoravids that conquered and ruled Majorca, Viladestes's home, in the 11th-12th C., which might explain why he added that note - Mosifes may have been the local Majorcan name for them). The veil and the knotted whip are two other quintessential features of the Almoravid. Veiling below the eyes is a Saharan Sanhaja Berber custom - precisely the peoples the Almoravids came from and unified, which they popularized, the veil served as their constant uniform, and earned them the common appellation "the veiled ones" by contemporaries. The knotted whip is also emphatically Almoravid - as noted by Norris (1971), Messier (2010) and others, a central instrument of their strict religious discipline, introduced by the imam Abdallah ibn Yasin.
Is there "proof" this is Abu Bakr ibn Umar? No. There is no proof of anything on these maps beyond what is visible. But all clues point that figure to be almost certainly an Almoravid (veiled, knotted whip, camel-riding, located precisely in the Lamtuna heartland, reinforced by textual references underneath it to their oryx shields and the Massufa). And then there is the label "Rex Bubecer" = Abu Bakr, certainly highly likely, and takes some stubborn reading to dodge it. Now which Abu Bakr is admittedly not clear. It could be another Abu Bakr - there were others. But the most famous Abu Bakr of the region is doubtlessly the Almoravid emir Abu Bakr ibn Umar - the one who conquered the western Sahara. He not only permeates the Arab chronicles which Viladestes had access to, he plays a repeated role in many of the legends of the peoples of the area - not only Berber but also Wangara, Wolof, Serer, etc. (remember: Abu Bakr led the invasion of the Ghana empire, in conjunction with Takrur (Tucoror), which is just below him on the map; the invasion was significant - even traumatic - to the region and fed a lot of local legends, e.g. the chronique de Walo claims that Ndiadiane Ndiaye, the founder of Wolof empire in Senegal, is his son - even if they lived over two centuries apart!)
This could, of course, all be wrong. Just a string of coincidences. Viladestes may really have meant to depict some unheard-of "Bubeder", a name not present in any Arab or European sources, possibly some unknown salt trader who likes whipping for sado-masochistic kicks who just happens to be crossing Lamtuna territory, and Viladestes decided it would be rather fun to call him a "king". Or he could mean Abu Bakr ibn Umar, an outsized figure in the chronicles and legends, much like the other kings depicted there.
I have sources who reach the same conclusion and make the same identification, but I don't have them with me right now. I am only providing this information off-the-cuff to ask you to please hold off your campaign to erase it. I am happy enough to add the modifier of "possible" in the depiction - like so many other Medieval pictures, there is no certainty about anything. But it is a significant image, worth mentioning and worth depicting, in the articles, even if ultimately uncertain. Walrasiad (talk) 14:43, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
REPLY
[edit]A number of sources record "Rex Bubeder"
list
http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=rex+bubeder&num=10
examples:
1) L'Afrique à la naissance de la cartographie moderne: les cartes majorquines ...
By Yoro K. Fall p187
Une mention indique sans aucune represenatation iconagraphique correspondant: Rex Bubuder
Rey de organa
Esta continuadament en gera en batala de altres sarayns so es asaber ap aquels de nubia et daltres alarabs, e sapiats que totes estes partides son arenoses ay grans bondancies de datils de les montanies
Une mention indique sans aucune represenatation iconagraphique correspondant: Rex Bubuder
Une mention indique sans aucune representation iconographique correspondant Nous discernons dans ces commentaries differentess conceptions: le musa melli apparait non plus comme le souverain de Milli mais de guineua. S'Agit-il d'une transcription de Ghana ou de Melli mais de gunea Cham apparait Musa Melli n'est plus seulement un soverign musulman mais aussi un decendant de Cham . L'auter de la carte attribue la guinneua aux descendants de Cham et L'Afrique a Affer,Il y a la une contradition due aux pesanteurs que constituaient les traditions geographies et les mythes genealogiques medievaux
2)
Boletín de la Academia Nacional de la Historia
1992, p 341
y a un jefe nómade, sobre un camello, Rex Bubeder. En el planisferio de Cantino, de 1502, vemos en el Africa la Tierra del Rey de Nubia, enemigo de los cristianos en continua lucha con el Preste Juan. El mapamundi de Martellus era muy
3) Nueva Historia Del Descubrimiento de América, 1998 p 439
el de Nubia (Rex ünubia), el Preste Juan (Pcstre Joha), el Rex Musameli, emperador mandinga, dueño del oro del Sudán, y un jefe nómade, sobre un camello, Rex Bubeder. En el planisferio de Cantino.de 1502, vemos en el Africa la Tierra ...
4)
10. Kartographiehistorisches Colloquium: Bonn, 14.-16. September 2000 : Vorträge, Berichte, Posterbeiträge
Neben dem „Pestre 1oha" (Priester Johannes) stellt sie „Lo Solda“ (Sultan von Ägypten) dar, außerdem „Rex Organa“ ... mit dem königlichen Titel „Rex Bubeder " benannt wurde, aber ohne die Insignien des Machthabers abgebildet wurde.
______________________________________
Please reference for the picture on the entry any source reference that says that the text reads "Bubecer" and not "Bebeder". If an author read Bubeder and thought it was a corruption of Bubecer that is different because in that situation letter "C" is observed as actuality and it is specualtion that represents what "d" would mean if "d" was there
Also
Abu-Bakr Ibn-Umar (d. 1087) and Abu Bakr I (mansa)( 13th century) Prince of the Mali Empire and Abu Bakr II (Abubakari II), 14th century Prince of the Mali Empire
If Bubecer was correct, there are two other Abu Bakrs in much closer timer period to 1413 map maker Viladestes
Could Bubeder mean "berber" ?
Also on the map
^^ high resolution
You assume gold paint would flow accidently in a curve that happened to fit the gap in a "C" perfectly and that the illuminator decided to do nothing to correct it
You said Veiling below the eyes is a Saharan Sanhaja Berber custom. However the camel riding figure seems to have scarfing or veil which only goes across the chin and neck
Additional issues: The camel riding figure is not showing whites of the eye? Why? Mansa Musa has discernable features on that 1413 Viladestes map and the camel rider on Abraham Cresques 1375 map has discernable features. But the camel rider on the 1413 Viladestes map does not show whites of the eyes or even a contour that reads as the profile of a face. Yet Rex Musa Meli (Mansa Musa) does show all of this
Reply to reply
[edit]Like I said, I am currently abroad, away from my files and books, so I don't have them at my fingertips at the moment. But I'll do it as soon as I get home. I can reference, off the top of my head, Norris (1971) and Messier (2010)'s works, which do identify the camel-rider as an Almoravid (I don't recollect if they actually read the name).
That there are readings of "Bubeder" there is little doubt. However, many of them are also superficial - or just cite each other. Tellingly, none of the above actually bother trying to explain or identify the figure, nor read the inscription (with the exception of Yoro Fall - but inexplicably he doesn't even realize that the "Rex Bub" label refers to the guy on the camel!)
Illuminators don't always correct mistakes - indeed, they rarely do. The amount of typographical errors you'll find in 15th & 16th C. charts is legion. You'll find plenty of whopping writing mistakes, and mistakes to correct mistakes, that linger from chart to chart (e.g. "Judia" shoals rewritten as "India" shoals, or "Diogo Fernandes" as "Domingo Frias", or "Diogo Lopes" as "Dom Galopes"). It's not a big deal.
It doesn't look like the D in "Lo Solda". It looks like a C, which was closed either by leaking or by mistake of the illuminator. But however you read it - Bubeder or Bubecer or Bubeoer - isn't the be-all and end-all of the story. There are other elements, incriptions, clues and context around it, that help clarify. Just as someone can honestly read "Desgrelona" rather than "Pester Ioha", if they ignore everything else around it.
I've already read you the inscription below it with the elements that identify it as an Almoravid. If descriptions of the veil and lamt shields are not enough, certainly the explicit tribal name (Massufa) is a strong indicator it can't be a non-Almoravid!
The term "Bubeder" is certainly not "Berber". The latter term existed in the Catalan at the time, and referred to all North African populations, especially the coastal populations of the Mediterranean ("Barberia"). The desert-dwelling pops of the interior were usually distinguished as "Sanhaja" or "Zenaga" or some variant thereof (e.g. the Portuguese chronicles of the 15th C. refer to them consistently only as "Azenegues"). The "King of Barbaria" would lead one to think of the rulers of the coastal states of Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, not the interior desert-dwellers (And Viladestes certainly knows how to spell "Berber" - in the inscription southwest of Rex Organa, he gives the fanciful etymology of the term "Africa" - he explains that it is named after "King Afer, son of Abraham" who ruled "all of barberia" ("tota la barberia") from Egypt ("Cairo river") to Morocco ("cape of the Gazzula").
If you don't think the picture gives enough of a veil or dots the eyes, blame the poor colorist. The inscription below it clearly says they veil completely below the eyes. I'm not sure if you've seen this map live, but it's not that big. The whole thing is just one calfskin, 85 cm x 115 cm. The font is miniscule, as are the pictures. Each of these kings is about half-a-finger tall. It's amazing that he managed to squeeze in the detail he did.
As to other Abu Bakr's you mention, there is no reason to depict them - if they were even known to exist at the time. Keep in mind what the purpose of these pictures are. They are not gratuitous, that is, they are not illustrations for illustration's sake, nor to glorify these individuals. This is a functional map not a decorative piece. You can sail precisely by it.
The 1413 Viladestes map is a very rich and informative map. Indeed, it is the best and most complete document we have of the full state of European knowledge about Africa before the launch of Portuguese naval expeditions down the African coast in the 1440s. However, Europeans had no direct knowledge of the African interior. No European had ever traveled there (or returned to tell about it) until Leo Africanus in the 16th C. All the locations are speculative. Viladestes derived them third hand, from Arab chroniclers (al-Bakri, al-Idrisi, Ibn Abi Zar, Ibn Idhari, Ibn Khaldun, etc.), most of whom, in turn, relied on other travelogues.
The pictures of the kings are functional. They are not gratuitous illustrations. They are located to indicate precisely where there these interior kingdoms lay - to the best of Viladestes's ability to pin their location. Mansa Musa is not depicted because he is Mansa Musa the individual. He is depicted to show the location of the Mali Empire. His seat, and all the citadels with his flag (black triangle on black flag) is the extent of the Mali empire as best Viladestes could figure it out.
For this objective, you only use one illustration. Now, Musa happens to be the best-known Emperor of Mali - indeed, the only Emperor of Mali Europeans of the time heard about. If not for his celebrated trip to Egypt, they likely wouldn't have heard the Musa name, and Viladestes would have drawn him as an anonymous archetype, like the kings of Nubia, Organa et al.
The depicted Abu Bakr can't be the predecessors or successors of Musa. He wouldn't have known them. At any rate, Viladestes isn't trying to draw individuals or dynasties. He's trying to draw locations. And you don't use two figures to show the location of one place. And he would be wrongly located. Our camel-rider is north of Takrur and west of Sudan - that is well outside of the Mali empire. Indeed, he is exactly located, smack-dab, in the homeland of the Lamtuna - the dominions of Abu Bakr ibn Umar.
It doesn't matter that Abu Bakr the man is already dead - and has been dead for centuries. Musa the man is also dead. Prester John never existed as a man. And who knows whether the kings of Nubia, Organa depicted are still alive. He is using legendary names associated with interior kingdoms, names that European might recognize.
Why doesn't he use a more recent Lamtuna emir than Abu Bakr? Because he doesn't know any more recent names. The Arab chronicles don't bother with the successors of Abu Bakr. At best, one of them mentions his empire was split between five sons after his death, but that is all. It falls silent thereafter. But the chronicles do dote over the life and deeds of Abu Bakr in very much detail.
(Remember: the Almoravids split their dominions c.1072 between north and south empires. The northern empire, led by cousin Yusuf ibn Tasfhin, covered Morocco and Spain, and that was lost to the Almohads in the mid-12th C. But the southern empire, led by Abu Bakr, was never conquered by anyone we heard of. As far anyone in Europe at the time knew, the southern Almoravid empire of Abu Bakr, the empire centered in the Lamtuna homelands, was still intact and kicking.)
(Side note: it is interesting to note in the 1413 map Abu Bakr is going to a town called "Sudam". There is no town of that name. "Sudan" is the Arabic name of the whole region. Mecia de Viladestes didn't realize that. And as the chroniclers wrote repeatedly how Abu Bakr conquered "Sudan" in the 1080s, Viladestes imagined that was a town he captured, and has him marching on it.)
So all this context - the location of the figure on the map, in Lamtuna territory, above Takrur, marching on "Sudan", the camel, the Sanhaja outfit, the knotted whip, the inscription describing the veil, the lamt shields, the Massufa label - all identify this camel-rider as the emir of the southern Almoravid empire. And Abu Bakr ibn Umar is the only such emir Arab chroniclers mentioned, and the only one Europeans would have heard of. And the label "Rex Bubecar" is just the cherry on top to confirm it.
No other theory works. And no one in your citations has offered any other. You may insist on reading it as "Rex Bubeder", but it makes no sense, it supplies no meaning and goes against the inscription and context. By that token, you might as well insist on reading "Desgrelona" in the east rather than "Pestre Joha". If you ignore the context, you might be satisfied with that. And if you think our camel-riding Almoravid emir isn't drawn precisely enough, I wonder what you would reply to the suggestion that the white Latin bishop was an Ethiopian emperor!
But like I said, I have better sources for all this. I will be certain to supply them when I get home. This is just information for now, to help you understand where this identification is coming from, and to ask you not to be so quick on the trigger. Walrasiad (talk) 14:02, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Central16
[edit]Your arguments are fairly convincing
questions
1) "Massufa" appears in the text?
2) Isn't it undignified for a "Rex" to have no crown, no insignia and to be riding a camel in comparision to other figures? >>>> Is the camel rider in 1375 Abraham Cresques map intended to be Almoravid Abu Bakr or a generic berber/Arab merchant ? Why is there no large text title in this older 1375 map?
3) The camel the Cresques map rider in is light skinned. Viladestes' camel rider is pitch black Did Viladestes 1413 decide pitch black skin, darker even than Mansa Musa was more accurate? And he also has the King of Nubia, light skinned.
4) For it to be reasonable that Viladestes put the Almoravid Abu Bakr who died 326 years earlier on a map if some of the others kings were similalrly not living in his century. Is this the case? For that figure to be Abu Bakr ibn Umar, Viladestes must have known that Abu Bakr had been dead for a few hundred years but he put him on there anyway for historical reference. Abraham Cresques for instance lived in Mansa Musa's time
5) Gabriel de Vallseca's map from 1439
^^ Here the camel riders, four of them, seem to be generic nomads and untitled. If what you are saying is correct Gabriel de Vallseca's later map seems to be less informed than the earlier Viladestes 1413 as to how the kings look or if Abu Bakr appeared on the earlier map he decided to remove him for not being contemporary enough. This Gabriel de Vallseca map could be an argument that the older camle rider in 1375 Abraham Cresques was generic, not supposed to be anyone.
Replies
[edit]1. Yes. Massufa appears (in Catalan "they are called Mosifes") in the inscription Vildestes writes. (Yoro Fall, the reference you have above, agrees with that reading.)
2. Not necessarily. Almoravids had ruled Spain for over a century, so they would have known how their emirs dressed. Besides, the descriptions in the chronicles are quite clear. That said, Granada and Morocco were quite well-known to Majorcans, and they knew that Muslim kings there don't wear crowns. (indeed, Musa is the only king on the map with a crown; others wear Moorish-style turbans and butterfly shields)
On the Catalan Atlas: as a rule, portolan cartographers usually copy each other exactly, and only add a few variations of their own. Cresques gave the exact same inscription that Viladestes gave (veiling, lamt shields), but Viladestes added two twists: the "Rex Bubecer" label, and the end-phrase "they are called Mosifes". The Catalan Atlas doesn't have the king labels of Viladestes, just the kingdoms. So, for Mansa Musa, there is no label "Musa Melli" in the Catalan Atlas, just the name of his dominions: "Guinea" ("Ginyia"). Similarly, there is no "Rex Bubecer", but the name of his dominions "Gozola". That is, the Gazzula, another of the constituent tribes of the Almoravids. [you can see a nice zoom here ]
(For the record: the Almoravid power core was the Lamtuna tribe in what is now SE Mauritania. The Almoravid coalition consisted of the Sanhaja desert tribes of the Lamtuna, the Guddala, the Massufa, the Banu Warith, the Lamta and the Gazzula. The Gazzula were in the northwestern desert, closest to Morocco and was the home tribe of the Almoravid spiritual leader and founder, Abdallah ibn Yasin. The Lamtuna, furthest southeast in the desert, closest to Ghana, was the tribe of the political/military leaders (Abu Bakr & co.). The Massufa were more northeasterly, and were later placed in charge of the Almoravid conquest of the Baleares. The Gudala were more southwest, closest to the coast and Senegal, and defected away early, becoming the Almoravids' principal enemy.)
The use of name labels and insertion of Massufa (rather than Gazzula) were Viladestes's independent choice (his map is more meticulous in African details). So while I cannot confidently assert that Cresques's camel-rider is necessarily Abu Bakr ibn Umar (as he is unlabelled), visually he is nearly-identical to Viladestes's - with knotted whip and veil clearly covering the mouth. And the inscription is identical (minus the Mosifes addendum).
3. As for skin color, I am not sure. It was just the colorist's choice. Its not completely off. Many Mauritanians are quite dark and I don't remember if the chroniclers mention Abu Bakr's skin color. That said, dark-skinned Africans were known to Europeans - not from traveling there (they hadn't yet) but because many black Africans lived in Muslim cities in Morocco and Spain. Indeed, a few Moroccan sultans of the time were of quite dark complexion (born of black Sudanese harem mothers). I presume, Viladestes was again trying to be meticulous, and hearing that peoples of the south were darker than the north, decided to go with a darker pigment.
That said, there is also an element of ink changing color over time. It could have originally been a little lighter (with more facial details as in Cresques and you hoped), but just darkened more over time.
As for the others (Organa, Nubia, Prester John), again there is next to no knowledge of these places. That said, keep in mind these are largely pre-racist times, identifying skin color was not necessarily on the fore-front of everybody's mind. Moreover, in North Africa, there was always a great variety of color shades. Musa is colored darker simply because that was pointed out and emphasized in the chronicles - Mali was often referred to as the "Empire of the Blacks" and its great Senegal-Niger river as the "Nile of the Blacks" (the region was called "Sudan" in Arabic, "Guinea" in Berber, both of which translate roughly to "Negroland" (to use Cooley's term)). So Mali is clear. But who knows what the skin color of Organans, Nubians and Ethiopians are? (indeed, many old chronicles call Abyssinians "Indians", as they are east of the Nile - the Ptolemaic dividing line between "Africa" and "Asia"). For the purposes of the map, it doesn't really matter. The great obsession then was differences of religion, not racial color.
4. I am not sure. All these interior kings are distilled from legends and chronicles. These chronicles are several centuries old (e.g. al-Bakri, al-Idrisi) and not necessarily "corrected" with updates. Most of the Saharan stations are from these same old sources - nobody is sure if they still existed at this time. But if they're mentioned, they're included, regardless of the age.
The most glaring example is "Rex Organa". Nobody knows who this king or kingdom of Organa is, or is supposed to be, since that name doesn't show up in any chronicles we've seen. It has been suggested it might be Kano or Kanem or Wangara, but that's pure guessing (and poorly located anyway). Indeed, IMO, the most likely identification (frequently suggested e.g. La Ronciere) is that "Organa" is merely a hoary reference to old "Ghana". Of course, Ghana had been long defunct for centuries, it was contemporaneous to Abu Bakr (who caused its destruction). So that would be an example of the ancient lingering.
(Of course, it is dramatically misplaced on the map - geographically, Ghana was much further west. But as they have Mali there now, and nobody had quite confidently reported that Ghana had since disappeared, or that it was replaced by Mali, the Majorcan cartographers might have assumed that the Kingdom of Ghana, doted on in the old chronicles, still existed and speculatively located it in that otherwise empty space.)
5) I had wished you asked that question a few weeks ago, when I actually saw the wonderful Vallseca map with my own eyes. Unfortunately, I don't remember what is written there, and the digital copies I find online are too poor a resolution to read. The details on Africa are far fewer in Vallseca, and certainly seem to be fewer inscriptions. Just from the low-resolution version, he has only one small inscription by the coast, so I don't think he replicates the inscription about the Lamtuna/Massufa found in Cresques & Viladestes. As far as the camel-riders are concerned, well, it seems Valleca decided to portray them all naked. (Catalan & Viladestes have only one naked camel-rider, near Hoggar - don't know the soure of that story). Not sure what Vallseca intended here or why. Pujades has a great book on Vallseca, I'd be curious to check that out when I get the chance. Walrasiad (talk) 16:03, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
November 2015
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[edit]As noted in the pervious comment the "Critical reception" section was missing in the version with the background information section added. The version with the background information added now includes the missing "Critical reception" section and the change has been described. Thank you for pointing this out.
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[edit]Thank you File:Qustul Incense Burner- side with hypothesized white crown.jpg has been added to Qustul entry
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DNA history
[edit]I suggest you make your argument on the talk page. I warned the editor for their personal attack in their edit summary. Doug Weller talk 19:24, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
November 2022, article: Life of Pablo album by Kanye West, section: Artwork and Title
[edit]
- here's a reference, but first please note the wiki article as it stands now, Life of Pablo, says this:
- By titling his album The Life of Pablo, West confused people as to which Pablo he was referencing with the title. Pablo Escobar, Pablo Neruda, Pablo Picasso
- Kanye has never mentioned Pablo Neruda. However another article in HITC by Chaitra Krishnamurthyin states the below. The bolded is the title of the articled followed by a bolded quote:
- KANYE WEST’S 2016 ALBUM WAS NAMED AFTER JUAN PABLO II
- Pope Juan Pablo II was also known by the name Pope John Paul. He was born in Poland and was Pope from 1978 until his death in 2005.
- He was later made a saint. Although many were surprised to see pictures of Pope Juan Pablo ll on Kanye’s shirt, the rapper had already
- named one of his albums The Life Of Pablo and recorded the track Saint Pablo.[1]
- the Life of Pablo article has since been locked and it is no longer possible to add this information from the HITCarticle
Points to note:
- Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
- Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.
If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 02:25, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
- Keep restoring your poorly sourced content in the article, I will report you to an administrator. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 02:32, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
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Copying licensed material requires attribution
[edit]Hi. I see in a recent addition to Abusir el-Meleq you included material from a webpage that is available under a compatible Creative Commons Licence. That's okay, but you have to give attribution so that our readers are made aware that you copied the prose rather than wrote it yourself. It's also required under the terms of the license. I've added the attribution for this particular instance. Please make sure that you follow this licensing requirement when copying from compatibly-licensed material in the future. — Diannaa (talk) 14:24, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
- thanks Central16 (talk) 19:56, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
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February 2024
[edit]
- This is heavy handed. Just discuss article page moves that might be considered controversial first on the article talk page. Liz Read! Talk! 07:27, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- Someone Thinks the word "Conscious" should not appear as the title of an article about Conscious Rap ?!
- @Binksternet Yes, heavy handed and hot-headed you have not what you think you think is a "personal analysis" or " or synthesis". "Conscious rap" is a term that is part of Hip Hop culture and that can be documented in Hip Hop publications and book about Hip Hop. Whoever titled the article "Political Rap" is obviously an outsider to the culture. I added detail and the fact that KRS-One was left out of the origins sections as well as an excellent short list of songs examples. I even preserved "Political Hip Hop" in the title as "Conscious Rap and Political Hip Hop" it is quite peculiar why you want to omit a term that comes out of the culture is more recognized by actual rap artists. There are political raps but "Conscious Rap" is a term that encompasses political raps and the word is derivative of the Black Consciousness movement of the 60s and 70s. Is this what you are trying to exclude? In fact the word "conscious" was already in the article 40 times. And I didn't omit anything I added.
- Nation Conscious Rap by Joseph D. Eure and James G. Spady | Jan 1, 1991
- Street Conscious Rap by James G. Spady , H. Samy Alim, et al. | Sep 28, 1999
- KENDRICK LAMAR THE KING OF CONSCIOUS RAP: A story of a Compton kid who became a global superstar and the Most Influential Rapper of His Generation (Journey ... US Country and folk musicians series.)| by Paul C. Andrew | Oct 10, 2023
Central16 (talk) 09:12, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- You added a bunch of musical analysis without citing a source,[1] which is why I warned you against violating the policy of WP:No original research. After that, you added a bunch of song titles without citing a source.[2] And you moved the article to a new title: Conscious Rap and Political Hip Hop. The new title should have been in title case such that only the first word is capitalized. And the contentious page move was performed without discussion, which is why I reverted it.
- I'm sorry, but the book you list above by Paul C. Andrew is self-published and cannot be considered reliable. It's part of a series of books glorifying Trump and American country music, so I would expect it to ignore certain facts and make invalid claims. Binksternet (talk) 15:45, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- That shows your bias mentioning a book that in your opinion glorifies Trump and country music which is completely irrelevant and you fail to mention it's one of three books with "Conscious Rap" in the title. I could easily go beyond this years of magazines using the term and professional rappers using the term in interviews but it's already in the existing article 40 times. One merely has to type "Conscious Rap" in google for 181,000 results and numerous results including article titles "Conscious Rap's Origin Story: The Music & Movement Revisited", "Top 5: The five best conscious rap songs ever made", etc , etc, Central16 (talk) 20:43, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not denying that there is a topic called conscious rap. But if you want to add stuff, you should cite your sources. If you want to move the article, start a discussion–see Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves. If you want to split the political rap and conscious rap into two separate pages, start a discussion about it. Binksternet (talk) 22:56, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
- That shows your bias mentioning a book that in your opinion glorifies Trump and country music which is completely irrelevant and you fail to mention it's one of three books with "Conscious Rap" in the title. I could easily go beyond this years of magazines using the term and professional rappers using the term in interviews but it's already in the existing article 40 times. One merely has to type "Conscious Rap" in google for 181,000 results and numerous results including article titles "Conscious Rap's Origin Story: The Music & Movement Revisited", "Top 5: The five best conscious rap songs ever made", etc , etc, Central16 (talk) 20:43, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
