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Latest comment: 8 months ago15 comments7 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I've seen the term "Saigu" before. I named the article "Saikū" when I created it because I used to live in Saikū (Meiwa town, Mie prefecture). Everything in the town, the museum, Itsukinomia, all of it is "Saikū". Even the train station and the school. A quick look at Google maps is all "Saikū". "Saigu" might be a historical term (I don't know), but it definitely isn't used at the actual location. I think the fact that the actual museum on the site is called "Saikū Historical Museum" [Historical Museum] should hold some weight. The Saiō was the princess/priestess, and the Saikū the residence. In the same way, the Ise Grand Shrine (the whole purpose for the existence of Saikū) inner and outer shrines are "Naikū" and "Gekū". The naming convention is pretty clear, and a quick online search show pretty much all references to the area and the palace are "Saikū/Saiku". It would seem very wrong to change the name of an article from it's common use name to a more obscure little used name. (talk)13:33, 31 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
That's not a proper way to deal with open RM. You are not a page mover and It's too late for you to withdraw the nomination here after you got a support vote. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 07:52, 15 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Latest comment: 8 months ago9 comments3 people in discussion
Yes, calling this article "Saikū Palace" is incorrect. The "kū" is Saikū means palace, so the article is named the "Saio's Palace Palace". In all of the sources I've seen, it's referred to simply as the "Saikū". I don't understand why we are making up names for articles that are unsupported. In the article and all of the referenced sources, it is simply the "Saikū". Ka-ru (talk) 15:09, 13 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
Agreed that this article should not be moved to "Saikū Palace", which is a pleonasm and incorrect.
Given that the Japanese placename appears to use the /k/ sound rather than the /g/ sound, I think "Saikū" is probably the most appropriate spelling for the page title.
Please base the discussion on the sources and not on people's opinions. This is why I've had enough of all of this. I've pointed this out over and over again is correct. The Saikū Historical Museum clearly states that the Saikū was the residence of the Saiō. Not that the palace was in the location of Saikū, but that THE Saikū was the residence. I provided a solid set of sources in the past, and there are many more, but all have been ignored. Before anyone makes any decision, please read the sources and don't listen to hear-say. I'll repost some of the sources: Official Local Tourism site [Ise], Official Saiku Museum [Historical Museum], Official Meiwa Town (location of Saiku) information guide [[1]]. The Saikū Historical Museum is a Japanese national museum and is recognised as the autorotative source on this topic. 3 weeks ago, this little corner of Wikipedia was accurate and clear. It has become less so since. Ka-ru (talk) 12:27, 18 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Ka-ru, apologies for irking you, but I think you might have misunderstood me. When I say that "Saikū" is "the Japanese placename" or that "Saikū" was "used to refer to the place rather than the person", I am saying that "Saikū" is the name of the location -- the residence. I am not saying that there is some place called "Saikū", and the residence (of some other unspecified name) is in that place.
My intended distinction is that, from what I can find in dictionary and encyclopedia references, "Saikū" with the /k/ is specifically the place (the residence), and "Saigū" with the /ɡ/ is either the place, or the person.
Loosely. For the 宮 character, the readings gū and kū are both classified as so-called 慣用読み (kan'yō yomi) or "customary-use readings", as we can see in the JA Wikt entry at [[ja:wikt:宮#日本語]]. This reading category often refers to kanji readings that are not directly related to the historically inherited readings deriving from the original Chinese words as borrowed into Old Japanese. This includes some surprisingly common words, things like 茶 read as cha, which is actually a re-borrowing from later developments in the Chinese language. At the time of initial borrowing, 茶 was pronounced in Japonified Chinese (in other words, in on'yomi) as ja at the oldest stage (goon), then as ta (the kan'on), and then as sa (the tōon).
Given the reconstructed Middle Chinese phonetics given in the table at wikt:宮#Pronunciation, we would expect Japanese to reflect this as kyū, which we have as the kan'on. I am not sure why this is the kan'on, which is generally younger than the goon. The reading ku (with a short, one-morau) is shown as the goon, generally the oldest reading. Given the Middle Chinese, I'd expect this to be kū instead, as the nasal ending /ŋ/ in Middle Chinese is regularly reflected in Old Japanese as /u/, which in this case would be the second "u" and thus result in the long two-mora reading kū.
The later Chinese languages often show a pronunciation starting with a g, which suggests the source of the gū reading in modern Japanese usage -- a re-borrowing from a later stage and variety of Chinese. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig20:07, 20 November 2023 (UTC)Reply